(Transcript) A. Helwa on How to Embark on Your Spiritual Journey, and “Secrets of Divine Love.”

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Welcome Back To Podcast Noor! Our Next Storyteller Is Someone Who I’ve Never Seen, I’ve Never Met In Person, And I Don’t Know Her Actual Name. And Yet, This Person Has Been Transformative In My Own Spiritual Journey. She Goes By A Pseudonym. A. Helwa. Or Helwa For Short, Which Means “Sweet” In Arabic.

Helwa Is A Writer, Poet, She Has Her Masters In Divinity, And She Is The Author Of The Brilliant Book Secrets Of Divine Love, A Journey Into The Heart Of Islam. This Book Was Gifted To Me By My Aunt Years Ago, And I’ve Gifted It Many Times Before Reading The Whole Thing Myself. That Is Because In Just The First Few Pages Of This Book, The Reader Is Enveloped In Love And Faced With This Choice To Embark On Their Spiritual Journey.  It Was The First Time That I Had Ever Heard Somebody Experience Or Go On Their Journey In Islam In Such A Transcendent, Loving, And Open And Curious Way. And So That Really Spoke To Me.

When I Finally Got Around To Reading This Book Myself, I Knew I Couldn’t Do It Alone. So. I Announced Our First “At Your Service Book Club.” Secrets Of Divine Love, Our First Read. Over 1100 People Signed Up. My Dms Were On Fire, So Many People Who Had Also Had The Book But Hadn’t Felt Ready To Read It…or People Who’ve Read It Many, Many Times, Or People Like Me Who Found Themselves Gifting It Over And Over Again. Our Book Club Spanned 4 Sundays In The Month Of Ramadan And It Was The Best Gift Of Community I’ve Ever Felt During The Holy Month. Secrets Of Divine Love And Helwa Are Not Just For The Person Who’s On Their Muslim Journey. It’s For Anyone Seeking A Loving Connection To God, Creator, Or Source.

Our Book Club Was Filled With People From All Backgrounds And Faiths Who Shared Questions And Vulnerable Stories. Who Found Community With One Another And Who Continued To Do So! Helwa Herself Joined Our Book Club And We Recorded This Podcast Conversation During The Month Of Ramadan Just Before Our Last Book Club, While Helwa Was En Route To Palestine.

While This Was A Virtual Interview, I Also Want To Share With You That I Felt Compelled To Keep My Eyes Closed The Entire Conversation. It Really Felt Like I Was Traveling With Helwa In Her Adventurous Stories Of How She Connects To Her Own Spirit. Hint Hint, There’s A Story Of Her Getting Lost In A Desert… Which Seems To Be A Common Theme Among Peoples Spiritual Stories And Journeys.

Anyway, This Is A Storytelling Session I Will Absolutely Be Revisiting. And I Highly Encourage You To Set An Intention Before Diving In…welcome To: How To Embark On A Spiritual Journey Rooted In Love, With A. Helwa. 

Noor Tagouri (00:00:20):

So great to virtually meet you. I'm so honored to have you on Helwa. Can I ask if that's your real name?

A. Helwa (00:00:35):

That's a good question. People ask me that all the time. It is not,

Noor Tagouri (00:00:39):

We love a pseudonym. Tell me the story behind your decision to write under a pseudonym.

A. Helwa (00:00:47):

Yeah, that's a great question. So basically when I felt this guidance to write, I had no idea how to even go about doing that. I had written poetry my whole life, but I had never written long form. In fact, my favorite subject has always been math. It's more objective. I think my lowest grades were in English.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:12):

That's hilarious.

A. Helwa (00:01:15):

Yeah, writing is just very subjective, so it's never, it's always been something that it's definitely, I don't think of it as my strong suit, which for me, this book is always a testament that there is divine help in the things that we do inshaAllah, and I see so much of that help just because I know my lack of ability really. Well

Noor Tagouri (00:01:38):

That's

A. Helwa (00:01:39):

A stranger may not know that, but I know that one plus one equals two, not like 200. So

Noor Tagouri (00:01:48):

I love that because I think that that's also a testament to how divine the writing process can actually be when you completely, completely empty yourself out and surrender to just being a vessel of whatever message is meant to come through. Because sometimes I think that even when I read writing that I wrote as a child, I'm like, that was not me. Where did this come from? Wow. So it's such a profound experience. So we always kick off these conversations, not by talking about pseudonyms, but actually asking, how is your heart today?

A. Helwa (00:02:27):

I love that. My teacher used to ask your heart, what does she say? English wasn't his first language, but I almost feel like I like that grammatically a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:39):

I love it grammatically

A. Helwa (00:02:40):

Because it emphasizes the heart. It's like your heart, what does she say? And today I feel like there's this line that keeps repeating in my mind. It's an old poem that basically says when the sun rises, there's no need for the lamp. And I've just really been sitting without this Ramadan from a place of, sometimes this month could be a list of things we want to do that I want to do, but really just being present with when the light of God's presence rises, the lamps, not that the actions aren't important, not that the practices aren't important, but there are lamps to guide us in the darkness. But when that presence arrives and it never left, it's an arrival that never left. It's kind of like the Quran, they say, I was listening to someone who said the Quran was sent from a far distance, but God's not in time and space.

(00:03:51):

So what does that distance mean? Except the distance of awareness, our awareness, our lack of awareness. So I've just been sitting with that. My heart's just been sitting with the lamps in my life and how hard I sometimes hold to a flashlight when it's day daylight outside and wow. So I've just been really present with that. Another way of saying that is use a boat to get across the river, but you wouldn't put that boat on your back and carry it across the desert. God gives us moments and gifts. How do you use it in the moment, be present and also realize how do we let go of what was maybe one way of being was working. And now I'm being guided to be a different being. And I want to clarify that doesn't mean I'm leaving my practices behind, but it's leaving the parts of myself behind that are no longer serving me. And I think in the heart there is so much peace in that, but in the mind there's a lot of war it, it's a struggle because there's an attachment. So just being gentle with myself, I think today.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:06):

That's beautiful.

(00:05:12):

It's interesting to think about darkness and lightness in that way. I, it's so sorry. I'm having a memory of this kind of vision I had this morning actually. So I've had a very, I'm going through a very intense part of my own spiritual journey right now. And I was in yoga this morning and during Shavasana where you're just resting and corpse pose and you're feeling the weight of yourself on the ground, I closed my eyes and I went to this place in my mind that I used to, and I don't say used to years ago, but just maybe even just a few months ago when I felt a little bit more grounded or whatever, but this place in my mind where it's very, very dark, but there's a light that shines on me and I'm sitting on water. It's a very shallow water, but it's all dark and there's just a moment of light and I always see it's really deep, deep, deep in the earth and everything above is just noise.

(00:06:18):

And today, for the first time ever, I've gone to this place in my mind repeated for years as a place of just solitude and peace. And today, for the first time I started seeing flickers of light in this space in my mind or my imagination. And the flickers of light began to shine in the darkness. But I started seeing people in deep meditation in the darkness as well. And I realized, oh, this place that I thought I came to in solitude and in alone why, while I am in my body and I'm fully alone in this very moment, I am surrounded by other people who are reaching that same place deep in the ground, deep in their spirit where they are trying to find that solace away from the noise. And so it is, it's an interesting reflection that you have on darkness and light because they're both tools for ourselves to maybe even carve out who we are in this moment right now. And I'd love to ask you, when you felt one of your, it doesn't have to be the first one, but one of your first pivotal moment of darkness where you realized actually the darkness is in service of the journey that you are about to embark on.

A. Helwa (00:07:50):

Well, first of all, I just wanted to say that the story you shared is so, it's so deep and so grounded and I feel so true. It's almost like tuning in to a frequency on the radio and there is, there's something playing, but you only hear it when you tune to it and then that's the listening. But then what's the question is how do you listen when there's no separation? How do I listen to you when there's no space for your words to travel from your mouth to my ears, and then you realize that you are the song playing, that there is a music of your soul and that we're in symphony with others and that we're not separate. One way a teacher of mine said, she said, you can't be in the love and right at the same time because right has wrong in its duality. Love is about unity.

(00:09:00):

So that space, that plane, there's a oneness in it. And that's really the beauty of light is that when it hits density, it unveils, its colors hidden and its unity. And that's what we see in the spectrum. But red doesn't belong to red and blue doesn't belong to blue. They all belong to the light. And so when you're really present, you get to see in the multiplicity unity. And that's why in the unity, not it's like solitude, but there's also presences. It's this paradox the mind can't really grasp. So I think your story, that experience, it's so beautiful and such a testament to an everyday moment. And also it's significant that it's in corpse pose because yeah, we do leva die before you die. Analogy, the Islamic tradition, it's like, yeah, when you have detached in a moment you get to experience the breadth of your being. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:10:15):

It's also funny because I just read the passage that you like the, I'm reading the chapter on death in Secrets of Divine Love. And it feels so true because there's a line that you write about how the prophet peace be upon him talked about the importance of visiting cemeteries. And it's funny because my husband and I, we go to our local cemetery every single morning. Every single morning we go, we sit, we walk, we talk, and no phones, no electronics are allowed. This is a thing that people who know us know this about us. And it's very interesting because today was the first time my yoga class used to be at a different studio. Today was the first time it was at the studio I was at and the studio is in the cemetery. And so when I'm in corpse pose, I'm actually surround and the windows are showing the tombs and the tombstones and the gravestones. So I just made that full circle moment as you said that. So I apologize for cutting you off, but the visual transcends that because I think that that was actually probably why.

A. Helwa (00:11:29):

Wow. It's so incredible how God just speaks to us. So apparently sometimes, yeah, it's so clear. And I think there's such power in that because when I go visit my loved ones that have passed, I'll lay next to them on in next to their grave site and I'll just sit looking at the clouds, changing shapes and just realize everything is like that. I feel here and alive, but I am also reaching towards the annihilation. And there's such beauty in that when you really accept it because you're willing to receive whatever God has destined. Obviously we have an ego, I have an ego and we have enough. It's like it's a journey, but it's a really powerful practice. It makes me like, yeah, I feel it's really beautiful and I'm happy you shared that with me. Yeah, it's inspirational and something nice.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:37):

Thank you. I mean it's

A. Helwa (00:12:38):

Beautiful

Noor Tagouri (00:12:39):

Your words even when you wrote, because we end up spending more time in the ground than above it, and I was just like, oh, I literally highlighted it and then I sent it to my family group chat. I was like, this is why Adam and I spend every day in the cemetery.

(00:12:54):

It's just getting to know to know our neighbors. And I feel really lucky because the cemetery that we visited is actually an artist cemetery. And so it has been from people from the 18 hundreds until now who worked in in art and music and philosophy and writing. And so all of their headstones have poems or poetic descriptions of them and it's just so profound. My favorite one is of Dr. James T. Shotwell and his stone says a "crusader of peace." And there's like a little memorial for him that just encompasses the entire cemetery. I do a lot of writing there, but I, we've made it a habit that everywhere we go, we look for the local cemetery and go visit the people who stay there. It's really great.

A. Helwa (00:13:51):

Wow. That's amazing. That is cool. That's usually when I go to a new country where there's teachers who've been buried, I'll go and just walk the cemeteries and just pray for those who've passed kind of thing. But this is a daily practice. It's beautiful in some of the weekly ones. It's nice, like a daily reminder. I love that.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:13):

Yeah, thank you. So tell me about darkness and you.

A. Helwa (00:14:19):

Yeah. Huh. So I think darkness has its teaching for sure, and it's the place of contrast. And for me it's the places where I'm so aware of how desperately I need God, how desperately I need him and that presence. And so when I think back in my story, and I always try to make an emphasize emphasis that I was not a practicing Muslim for about 10 years of my life. And I share that because I think a lot of times people feel like if they read something inspirational, they attribute a perfectionism to a person or even assume that a state is a station, like a passing state or moments of inspiration is a station. And I consider myself like an everyday Muslim just trying to do her best. And I think because I had an experience where I was born Muslim, but took space from the tradition as I went and traveled the world really for those 10 years.

(00:15:28):

And when I came back to the tradition, it was actually from darkness, from a place of deep longing and separation. And I hadn't experienced God in that way in my life. I had always experienced God through my parents' relationship with God. Can you tell us, I was almost piggybacking on their relationship, how they solve God, how they experience God, how they worship God, and they were so beautiful in their worship, but I didn't feel it. And it was so disorienting to know one way of being and to not feel it. And I see and hear that disconnection that people experience amongst many people and there's a hopelessness in it. And I always want to say that I felt that before. And I truly believe that the way through the darkness, through the darkness is as one of my teachers says, she's like, you could fight the darkness.

(00:16:33):

You could speak with the darkness, you could be a lawyer and debate with the darkness, or you could just turn on the light. I'm like, yeah, but light. How do I do that? So then comes the questions of how, and I've learned now through my life that when how arrives, it's the ego wanting to take control. It's the ego wanting to find a way. And so one of the things I've learned through that journey is to be with God. Now, even in the place where I feel disconnected, it's like to start and begin right here. Not one day if I could only not back when I was, but right here where I'm not and I'm hurting and it's hard and I have doubts and I turn to God there, that's my moment of dawn. That's where the dawn rises because everything else is an illusion. The future is not here yet. So we put a lot of our energy into perfectionism. And actually you can't come to the perfect one pretending perfectionism, how could God heal who you're pretending to be?

(00:17:54):

You have to come with who you are, broken, bruised, struggling, needy, poor. And that's how you approach the rich, the healer, the one. How else could you approach that? There's beautiful story of sham tabi and the poets always create these mythical sort of stories. But this particular poet envisioned sham tabi, which is Rumi's teacher on the day of judgment. And everyone's like bowing before Allah and they're just like, oh, Allah, I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. Please embrace you, embrace me in your mercy. And they're just desperate for Allah's love. And the poet paints the picture of shams running across the plains of the day of judgment and raising his hands and going, God, God. And everyone's like, oh my God, here he comes. And he's like, I have something you don't have and I'm willing to sell it to you. And everyone's like, oh my God. And God, this poem goes as a divine presence says, okay, go ahead. What is it? And he's like, I have my lack in my nothingness. And you don't have, he is like, I have empty hands and all you are is full oneness. Obviously God's without forms, but he's pointing to the fact that how we interact with the divine is not through false perfection but through our brokenness. And so I think darkness really teaches us, teaches me, has taught me the places where I'm human because it's through my humanity that I experience his divinity, which is a hard lesson to learn, but it's the beginning of the journey.

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Noor Tagouri (00:19:55):

Thank you for sharing that. It's so clear. I'm thinking about the 10 years that you embarked on this journey. I want to know about the woman who was leaving her parents' house or tradition and decided, I'm going to try to figure this out for myself. What did she feel like? What did she look like? How did her parents react? How did her community react? What was the state of her heart and what was her first question?

A. Helwa (00:20:36):

It's a wonderful question. I remember longing for something but not knowing what it was. And so because I had a need but didn't know what I was seeking, it was almost like I was in a blind room just moving my hands around trying to find a wall. And so sometimes I landed on things that were sharp and sometimes I crashed into things, but it was because I was blindly seeking for something. So you land on money, that wasn't it. You land on people. That wasn't it. You land on success still not it still not it. You just keep travel the world. It's not it me interesting people. It's not it. It's not it. It's not it. And just reaching, reaching and everything I hit, it felt like I was further away than when I began almost I was taking these almost mini little idols that I was putting in my pocket. So it was slowing me down.

(00:21:59):

And it wasn't until I was at a monastery, a Buddhist monastery. I remember my parents because I was really with the monks. And it was funny because in my teenagers I struggled to wake up for fajr, but I would wake up every morning at 5:00 AM to do meditate for an hour with the monks. And it wasn't hard at all. So then I knew it was in, where was this time? It was in San Diego, this Tinot Han who's like a popular zen Buddhist teacher. He's passed now, but he has a monastery called Deer Park Monastery and it's like in the mountains. And yeah, I would, so Id waking up for many, many weeks and I'd wake up with them, but I'd never wake up for Fajr when I was a child. I hardly used to wake up for Fajr when I was like 12, 13. And here I was awake, excited to be in the present.

(00:23:07):

And I remember my parents would visit me on visitor days and they were very Muslim, but they never said anything. My mom said later she was really praying for me to find my wife, but they didn't say anything. And they had faith that I would find my path, the one that God had planned for me. And I remember after that experience and a few experiences traveling, that it was in the observation, I shared this briefly in my book, but observation of a person praying that ignited my spirit. And I always think this is so interesting because I was so hungry for something and what after all that, seeing the world, all the things that I think maybe people seek for touching it, the thing that transformed my heart wasn't a book. It wasn't, wasn't some great teacher. It was witnessing a single person, a stranger's sincerity, praying with just such beautiful light and purity.

(00:24:35):

And I realize in that moment that presence, that unseen presence can change whoever that person is. I am sure on the day of judgment, they will see that their private moment in a corner with God inspired my whole journey. And every book goes back to them in a way. And that's the ripple effect of being a sincere servant to God, which I feel that this person was, and it ignited something in me, it reminded me who I was, but I couldn't, was searching everywhere for the answer except I just didn't look inside. And Rabia, they famously came to her and Rabia come outside, it's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful spring day. And she's like, man, if you could see what it looks like inside, you would never ask me to come outside because of the heaven that exists inside of our spirits. Like now was the time where I realized you could be in a corner of an unknown mosque and be traveling to the most beautiful places without physically leaving where you are. And so did you ever speak to that woman? No, I don't know her name. She doesn't know mine. But I am here carrying a part of her breath in my words and my life. That's the beautiful thing about the plane that you entered in your practice is it's just a reminder that there's this breath that just rolls through all of us. And when me and you breathe, we could be continents apart, but I take in a few molecules of your breath and of your ancestors tens of thousands of years ago in this recycle there.

(00:27:06):

So when I breathe, I breathe in my grandmother, I take in a breath of the prophet peace be upon him, his companions. That is how close we are.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:22):

I mean that comes back to oneness. And that's like that's the thing that I've been really meditating on. This is where I find peace. And I'm so grateful for the work that you do because it's given me some language that I needed to understand this feeling and this journey itself. And I've always referred back to this notion that God is one, this notion of unity. And if we, it's funny because I was listening to a podcast episode yesterday with Krista Tippett and Reverend Barbara Taylor, Barbara Brown Taylor, believe that was her name. And she at the end of the interview quoted her Muslim friends as they say, God being closer to us than our jugular vein. And I just mentioned that because I love that a reverend who lives in Georgia meant quoted that. And so when I think about the closeness of God, and then when I think about God telling us that he's closer to us than our jugular vein, so God is also telling us that he is inside of us and then we think about the oneness of God, then the conclusion I draw, the image I draw in my head is that I am you and you are me, and we are all one and we are all of each other.

(00:28:54):

And so where things get tricky, where our humanness I think gets distracting or in the way is this notion of I'm right and you're wrong. I have the truth and you have a lie or this idea that there can only be one way. And it was profound that you had mentioned earlier that there cannot, can't be right and love because right insinuates there's a wrong which is duality and love is unity. And maybe the question I'm trying to ask is how do you feel in the state of connection to unity today? How do you feel we got to this place of such disconnection, such absolutism, such certainty that my truth is the only way and the fear that embodies all of it?

A. Helwa (00:30:07):

Well, I feel like in the Quran, Allah says that if you're arrogant, you can't witness the signs like you're veiled from witnessing the signs because if you're arrogant, you've created separation and arrogance is a quality of darkness of the devil. What's the pride? And arrogance is what prevented him from bowing when Allah asked him to bow. So that arrogance is this test that arrives in front of us. And here's the thing that's interesting about arrogance, is arrogance is the same, which I think is to me is very worth sitting with is saying I am better, which is the classic phrase from the Quran that the devil says I'm better is arrogant, but saying I'm worse as arrogant too. Because you're looking, you are a masterpiece of God and you're looking at this at God, the artist and telling him what his masterpiece is worth. You're going into God's museum and saying that price is wrong. It should be less. And that's arrogant. So saying I am worse and saying I'm better creates separation on top of the fact that the devil also says, I will find them on the path. I say this in the book on the eth, that on the left, the right in front of 'em, behind them to convince you, not that they don't believe in God, not that they don't pray, not that they're greedy, but that they're ungrateful.

(00:32:10):

So if you have arrogance and in gratitude, you are absolutely veiled from the signs and it's like you're blind. It's like the image of me in a dark room trying to find my way. You're just crashing into everyone. You can't really have regard for other people in their space, in their process because you can't even see that. The Quran says it's the hearts that are blind. It's the hearts that can't see. There's a story of a s Christianity, they call him the desert aba. And this guy goes to visit a desert aba in the mountain and he goes into his little cave and he's like, father, where? Where's your Bible? I don't see any books here. And the man grabs him and he takes into the edge of his cave and there's this wide expanse and he's like, there is my psalms. He points to a mountain range. He's just naming different chapters of the Bible because he understands that the words come off the page. If God said be, and everything was then his divine speech brought to life everything. So even witnessing God, if you can witness God's qualities manifested in forms, if you can witness his divine names bringing to life everything, then it's how could you not love that? And if you don't love the creation, how could you say you love the creator of that creation?

(00:34:12):

See, the beautiful thing about Islam is like it's cornerstone is mercy. You know what mercy is? It's so fascinating. Mercy requires me to be fallible, to experience how loving is God that every time we start our prayers we're saying God was Ar-Rahman. His mercy encompasses everything. And that encompassing it knows that I'm fallible. I can't even take it in had I not been human.

Noor Tagouri (00:34:51):

I always think about that and I've been thinking about that more as we've been reading the book. And it's very interesting. I keep saying interesting, I think because I'm more nervous to say how I really feel, but or maybe I don't have the language entirely. I think I'm just in a state of curiosity right now. But I am experiencing the fear of loved ones that comes with going on this journey. The fear of a parent being afraid that asking these questions or exploring or taking a step back from the way that I was raised or the tradition I was brought up in and the way that it was taught is condemnable or wrong or astray. And I keep going back and forth between the humanness of that reaction and then the mercy of God and how deep, deep, deep in my core, I truly, truly, truly believe that this journey is the one that we're meant to embark on, that we are not meant to be sheep who just are told when you're growing up, this is what you do, this is what you do, this is what you do.

(00:36:30):

And if you don't do it, you're going to go to hell and you must stick to that. And that's that. And it's interesting because I was on a call with Dr. Butch Ware earlier, he's historian and professor and he studied in Senegal and he did his dissertation on Quranic education. And he said to me, I literally wrote this down. He said one of the questions that he would ask the people who he was interviewing for his dissertation on Quranic education is what's the best, what is the best way to raise a Muslim child? And he said, every time people told me directly, there is no such thing as a Muslim child that is a child of a Muslim. Every single person has to come to their own faith, their own submission. You do not educate a Muslim child. Your job is to model to them what faith looks like.

(00:37:36):

And when he said that, I was a little taken aback because I was like, whoa. But I have always thought about this notion of, I think that in our tradition there's this expectation that you teach and you give your children your faith and you raise them to be a Muslim child. But I found it even more almost holy, this idea that that is a child of a Muslim and you model to them what faith looks like so that they may come to their submission and faith on their own because isn't that what true conviction looks like? Isn't that what true affirmation of faith looks like? Isn't that what true love looks like? It's terrifying, especially for people who want to hold on to control because the reality is, and this is why I have so much compassion for my parents and family members and people feel this way, it's because I think that they feel like it's their responsibility. I am responsible for your actions because that does this mean I didn't do a good job in making you fear God enough, essentially. But I literally just had this conversation with Dr. Ware like a couple of hours ago, so it's still sitting with me this notion of that is a child of a Muslim who has to come to their faith on their own. But I would love to hear how you reflect on that.

A. Helwa (00:39:07):

That's beautiful, what he shared and your reflections on that is I think it's really poignant and I think it's something that we're stepping into this era for sure.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:18):

Yeah,

A. Helwa (00:39:20):

I think my friends make fun of me, I use too many gardening references, but it just makes sense to me

Noor Tagouri (00:39:29):

We're in the mountains, I'm embracing it.

A. Helwa (00:39:34):

But when if anyone's tended a garden before, you know cannot control the way the tree grows, it's you create optimal environment, you support it, you make sure the soil is fertile and you let the tree reach its arms and seek for light. And sometimes it goes straight up. Sometimes it whens like a river. But the calling is really allowing children to be in the light, to have a taste of that. And I always think about how no one can describe what an apple tastes like except through aply references. It's not quite it. And you could write volumes breaking down the compounds of it. But when you take that bite, something about an apple that intellectual doesn't know through experience and going even back to what you mentioned, there's these different paths and people are trying to establish what's right. The thing about that is density can only be in one time, in one space. For example, a flower kind of only occupies its space, but its fragrance can intermingle with a lot of different fragrances because it's more subtle. So when we find ourselves in conflict and there's resistance, it's a really nice moment to stop and to be present with the subtlety, with the fragrance behind. In beneath.

(00:41:24):

When I ask one of my teachers, what should I bring for Palestine? She said, peace. If you want to bring something for the people here, bring peace, subtlety.

Noor Tagouri (00:41:46):

What does bringing peace look like to you though?

A. Helwa (00:41:49):

Great question. So bringing my peace. Bringing peace inside myself

(00:41:59):

Because if you are, it's like I'm looking through a kaleidoscope. If my vision is broken, everything's broken. So purify your own heart, establish presence in your own being and be a light. And I believe everybody can do that of every faith because God made every single person. That's the beauty about in my belief being Muslim. And what I love about it is that I could look at every single person and say, regardless of what you believe, you are free to believe what you believe. But what I believe is God made you and intentionally created you. And every single breath you take, he chooses for you to take. How can you say, what can you say to someone who's been so divinely chosen? How would you hold that reality?

(00:42:58):

Because we hold the Quran with such respect as we should, but then we don't hold each other with respect, but the same God made both. And so with children, how do you invite someone to an experience? I'll tell you a story of some of the work I do as in prisons, and we were sharing, one of my friends made a movie and we're doing a prison release and he's like, Hey, can you do a meditation type thing? And I'm like, okay. And it's just like a hundred men in there and Oh, what should I do? I was just sitting there thinking about it and it came very clearly. I know the Lord's Prayer from going to Christian school my whole life. I know the Shabbat from having Jewish friends and I obviously know the Fatiha so let's go. And it was so, it's so interesting. It's perfect saying this because it's the Ramadan, Passover, Easter

Noor Tagouri (00:43:56):

I know

A. Helwa (00:43:58):

Feeling, but it's just stepping into that environment and saying, when in the Quran it says, don't make distinctions between the prophets. I take that seriously.

(00:44:10):

I'm not saying that people don't have different paths. I'm not saying that Islam is the same as Christianity as I'm just saying that with those men in that moment saying those prayers, we left the prison, we closed our eyes and we were really close to the redwood forest, and we just became trees. We closed our eyes and we became trees. We grew branches, we grew roots, and we shot our roots all the way to where our loved ones were underneath those prison walls. And we used our breath to go where our bodies couldn't. And so we took in love and we exhaled it across and beyond time and space, and everyone in that room believed something different. But in that moment we were a forest. And that's just being present and saying, you yes, have made mistakes me. Yes, I have made mistakes and we could still be here together. And it was well funny too, because they all really liked my song, which is what they call the Fatiha. I really like that song. Where can I get that? I was like,

Noor Tagouri (00:45:34):

Oh my gosh, that's incredible

A. Helwa (00:45:36):

Because funny. So we make separation, and that's a function of course, of our ego. It creates duality.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:53):

Wow. I mean, thank you for sharing the work that you do. I am. That's so beautiful and I would love to hear more about that. And I would also love to hear about the journey that you're currently on. So you're having this conversation, you're in Dubai, I'm in New York, and you are on your way to Palestine, to Falasteen. What is taking you there and how are you cultivating the peace within to bring that light to the land?

A. Helwa (00:46:33):

So I feel like the peace within is really about being a mediator between the ego and spirit inside of me, between the growing voice of the spirit and the dimming voice, the ego, and really working on a practice of AstaghfirullahulAtheem turning my heart to Allah and not avoiding or pretending my NA's ego is not present, but just choosing to orient my body towards God.

(00:47:20):

And in that space, being gentle with myself and leaning into peace and using my breath to breathe in the constriction and exhale the peace, breathe in divine love and exhale divine love. Realize that with awareness every time we breathe, we change the world or reverse trees. And if you really feel the presence of the laws of a law, you feel gravity press you into the earth. And when I'm in my heart, I see that as a way the earth holds me, hugs me, calls me to it. So this entire earth is in support of mercy, gentleness, and humility.

(00:48:47):

So I walk as just one body, but there's an entire planet beneath my feet that supports the journey that gave of itself so that I could have a spark of existence to do what it couldn't. Allah chose us to be representatives of his mercy and love and to reflect his qualities upon all people in this month of Ramadan says he sent the Quran for all people. He didn't say Muslim. I said, nah. It's like all people that the divine message sent in Ramadan Ramadan, which is extreme heat, the month of extreme heat the month where if the Arab says extreme heat, it's hot because they lived in the desert. It's that place where you're desperate for relief. What is relief in hot desert? It's rain and how God refers to revelation as rain.

(00:50:09):

So how could you be like that? What is it like to be rain on dry earth? And to hold that question in your heart, not because the answer is going to set you free, but because holding the question reminds you that you're needy for God. And our cure is in our neediness, not in our completion of finding fulfillment on our own. I asked one of my teachers once, Amina, why don't I feel like I'm enough? And she said, oh, because you're not. I was like, man, that's a bad answer. And the whole group started laughing and she said, no, but that's the point. You bring your neediness to Allah and you become enough through him, not before him.

(00:51:22):

So you're on the path. So if you have doubt, if you have questions, it's like the answer sends itself out into the world to be found through a question just like that Rose sends its fragrance out to be found. I see the space you create because of the questions you ask and you hold people with so much honor because maybe you haven't always been held that way. And so the empty space expanded your container and that's how God blesses you through trials. And that's a gift that you don't get without the journey. And so going to Palestine is about praying and being present in the holy nights of Ramadan the last 10 days, and to pray for the world and to pray for those who are seeking Allah to find him, not because he's hidden, but as if NATA says he's so close that by his proximity he's available.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:26):

Right. Wow. That's a beautiful continuation of the image of the jugular vein. You often talk about your teachers, and this is more of a practical question, but I'm eager to hear it, especially from you. How do you go about not just finding teachers, but trusting teachers, engaging with teachers, surrendering with teachers, not to them but just with them and in their presence. What is a teacher?

A. Helwa (00:54:11):

There was, to answer this question, I'll share a brief story. I was traveling through a few deserts of Morocco and Turkey, and I ended up in Iran and I decided to do a high through the desert and I got lost. And when I walked into the desert, I had one question and that was, why do you need a teacher? And I was like, we already have the books. I'll just read them. I don't need a teacher. And I was in my American mode of I don't need a man to tell me how to whatever. I had this whole picture and I was walking this, his desert and up and down these, it was kind of mountainous and sandy and I look on the floor and I see a huge piece of crystal. I'm like, what? Never See. So what I do, I pick it up, put it in my backpack, and then I, oh my God, is that Jasper? I'm obsessed with geology. Oh my God. Oh my God. Is that, oh my god, that's laced ett. I'm just picking up. Literally, I don't know what happened. Was there a gem show? And someone went, dropped their stuff and I'm walking through this desert norm and I'm picking up stones. Oh my God. So pretty. This is pretty for hours.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:51):

That's a heavy backpack.

A. Helwa (00:55:53):

Heavy backpack. But what's funny about that is I was so distracted with the shiny little things. I lost my way. I got turned around too much and I had no idea, by the way, okay, let me turn around and walk back. So I'm like, okay, I only have seven, eight miles to go back. And I look and I'm like, huh, this doesn't look familiar. This doesn't look familiar. I don't remember that. Why's this? It's okay. It's just over the mountain. The little oasis go over the mountain. There's no oasis. No, there's just more mountains for the next several, several hours.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:45):

No, no, no, no, no, no.

A. Helwa (00:56:48):

I am.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:50):

You are not lost in a desert. 

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BEFORE WE GET INTO HELWA BEING LOST IN THE DESERT! I WANTED TO SHARE A LITTLE ABOUT OUR TEAM, AT YOUR SERVICE. AYS TELLS STORIES AS A FORM OF SERVICE. OUR APPROACH? STORY FIRST, MEDIUM SECOND. THAT MEANS WHEN WE DECIDE WE WANT TO SHARE A STORY, WE THINK OF THE BEST WAY TO TELL IT...THAT COULD BE A PODCAST, DOCUMENTARY, DINNER PARTY, KEYNOTE SPEECH, CLOTHING LINE, AND SO MANY OTHER MEDIUMS! YOU CAN CHECK OUT OUR WORK AT AYS.MEDIA OR @AYS ON INSTAGRAM. AND IF YOU HAVE ANY STORY IDEAS, SHOOT US A NOTE. AND MAKE SURE YOU LISTEN TO OUR WEBBY NOMINATED INVESTIGATIVE PODCAST “REP: A STORY ABOUT THE STORIES WE TELL.” WE DIG INTO MEDIA REPRESENTATION, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH STORIES, TRUTH, AND OBJECTIVITY…OKAY…BACK TO HELWA IN THE DESERT. 

A. Helwa (00:56:51):

I am so lost. I have to find a picture somewhere. I am so lost. And I go up the mountain, it takes, it's these little tumbling, rock mountain, go all the way to the top. And I'm like, of course. I mean, this doesn't make sense. You came over to this mountain ridge, over the mountain ridge. I have no idea. I spend the night and my water's out. I like half a cup left.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:14):

Oh my gosh.

A. Helwa (00:57:18):

And it's such an interesting teaching because that's why I say the power of a question because my backpack is filled with rocks. You can't eat them and they don't have water, but they're shiny. But that's about it. And how often do we lose our way because of that very thing?

Noor Tagouri (00:57:44):

You went into the desert with that question

A. Helwa (00:57:47):

Literally with that. I have my book with literally with that question, and I was convinced. I was like, come on, let's be real. You're good. What's up? Come on, let's go. Totally hardened my ego. This

Noor Tagouri (00:58:02):

Why does every big spiritual journey end up with someone lost in the desert? Please tell me. Why does it have to be like that?

A. Helwa (00:58:11):

It's harsh and it's great because it's the topography of revelation. It means more to you. Allah says there will be a day and it's like pearls will be cast upon the floor and no one will care on that day of judgment because they'll see, they'll be like, what is this? Even? This is an irritation inside of a show that created a defense mechanism, and that's what a pearl is.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:43):

It's so wild that you're saying this, by the way, because today, for the first time ever, I saw a video of how pearls were extracted for Wow. The first time ever. That's wild that you're saying. And to be honest with you, it made me really uncomfortable. I mean, I love pearls. I think they're so beautiful. And also I was just the way that the oyster was being cut into and it felt like we were stealing from them or something, and it just, but I didn't know it was an irregulation either. That's really incredible.

A. Helwa (00:59:15):

You got me on your plane. I'm in, in your plane.

Noor Tagouri (00:59:18):

I know. I guess we're really alike. I kind of feel like

A. Helwa (00:59:19):

From the same radio station.

Noor Tagouri (00:59:21):

Anyway, I love it. I come from radio, so this is perfect

A. Helwa (00:59:27):

Yeah, that's right

Noor Tagouri (00:59:28):

Right. I mean, you were lost in the desert. So yeah, I guess that would be a good lesson in figuring out why a teacher.

A. Helwa (00:59:36):

But here's a story goes, it was also the first time I was really confronted with death because people in this desert, ha, there's like animals, they found bodies. It's, I was really confronted in that moment with, I actually might not get out of this because just judging the distance I came, the lack of water, the sun starting to go down. And two things happened for me. One was, it was the first time I felt my spirit pull me. Literally felt like someone grabbing the front of your shirt and pulling you

Noor Tagouri (01:00:25):

Forward.

A. Helwa (01:00:26):

Forward. And the only thing I heard was, don't stop, keep walking. And I would go over a mountain when I tell you I wish I had a picture, hundreds of mountain ranges. I didn't know which corner of these mountains, the little oasis was like, there's no way to know. And I didn't

Noor Tagouri (01:00:50):

Tell us the end of the story though then did you? Yeah. No, no, don't. Sorry, but I'm, my heart is ping. I'm like, but you're here. You're talking. It's not a ghost.

A. Helwa (01:01:00):

Yeah, I'm alive. And this is important too, just because I was writing Secrets of Divine Love in this process too. So it was a really integral moment of

Noor Tagouri (01:01:13):

That's where this book came from.

A. Helwa (01:01:15):

Yeah, in part, it was in part, I was working on it during this period, during this traveling journey. And it was so important to the book because, well, so then I go up and I'm like, and I just sit there and I'm like, God, I'm desperate. I am so desperate. And as I'm just praying desperately, I open my eyes and I see a telephone pole in the distance, just tall telephone pole in the distance. And I'm like, well, I should go towards the telephone pole because it has connection. Right? That makes sense. Because at least they'll find my body near it. I was just like, let's just go in that direction. So

Noor Tagouri (01:02:09):

Are you feeling though, tell me about, are you tired? Are you hungry? I know you're feeling this force pulling you, but do you have anxiety? Do you have trust? What's happening inside?

A. Helwa (01:02:20):

So when I first literally, I felt my legs shake when I first realized, and it wasn't because I was tired. I was like, oh my God, no one knows I'm here. I was with a friend I met whilst traveling, and she went in a different direction to a whole nother area. And I just met her traveling backpacking. So all of it was just so wild. Everything about it was wild. And the one I missed Fajr that morning by five minutes, and when I tell you, I swear, the only thought I had was, I can't believe I missed Fajr. And then I was like, what about my parents? And to me it was such a surprise because I was like, wow, when it comes to it, this is what's important. And eventually I got up to, I did a few more up and downs, and then I saw in the distance a road, and then I eventually came, it took hours and I was crawling towards the end. No, and I land at a mosque.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:36):

No.

A. Helwa (01:03:39):

And the mosque, and

Noor Tagouri (01:03:40):

I know you're not making this up, but

A. Helwa (01:03:45):

The story actually gets a little bit hysterical too, because God knows I love a little poetry.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:51):

We love it.

A. Helwa (01:03:52):

This mosque was in the name of one of the companions of the prophet, how the prophet. And I'm like, oh my God, is this real? And I drink my water and I'm just crawling. And by the way, this guy comes and gives, he's like, are you okay? And he hands in water and I drink it and I'm like, oh my God. And I'm sitting there and I find my way back to this oasis. It kind of looks like where Aladdin lived, this kind of really, it does. There's no other way of describing it on top of each other kind of style. And I'm sitting there and my, I'm just in shock. And my phone rings and my friend calls and she's like, I'm 20 miles into the desert lost, but I, I'm at this pool. Can you guys drive and get me? I swear to you, Noor, we go to her. She's literally in this Olympic size pool in the middle of the desert. It's totally in middle, nobody around. So me and her with all our Islamic gear jump into this pool and we're literally to over my head with water an hour after that whole experience. And it was just looking out into the vast.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:17):

So you baptized yourself essentially.

A. Helwa (01:05:21):

Literally, the teaching came down so hard,

Noor Tagouri (01:05:24):

So hard,

A. Helwa (01:05:26):

So softly. It was like Allah can change your state from jalal to Jamal instantly. When you're in your jalal, you turn to him. And when you're in your Jamal, don't forget to turn to him.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:39):

Can you define both of those words for us?

A. Helwa (01:05:41):

Yes. Jalal being kind of the majesty, but also people kind of see that as a constricting qualities. The more difficult qualities and Jamal being the beauty, the more the ease of life. And so it's like when you're in a jalal of difficulty or the majestic sort of hard to bear qualities, divine qualities, you're turning to God with desperation. But in the Jamal, don't forget him because that's the space you could be forgetful. So when you're in the pool in the desert, don't forget that you were in the desert with no view of the pool. And so I'm in that space, all I'm thinking is subhanAllah And then I swear to you, I go home, I open a book, the first page, first paragraph says, life is like a desert. That's why you need a guide. Because with every wind, the topography changes and you don't know the signpost,

Noor Tagouri (01:06:42):

This is not true.

A. Helwa (01:06:42):

I swear. I swear on my life. You dunno. The signposts. Because life, when a breeze comes through, everything changes. You need someone who's gotten across to take you across.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:57):

Whoa.

A. Helwa (01:06:59):

Okay, I'm going to ask less intense questions next time I go on a hike.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:08):

Next time I'm just going to ask about the stones themselves and how those are created and why they're so beautiful.

A. Helwa (01:07:19):

And can you imagine all those stones? You would think I'd have the mine to take them out my backpack. I didn't.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:25):

No, no, no, no, no. I'm so happy that, so you have them.

A. Helwa (01:07:28):

Yeah, I should send you a picture. But yeah, I have them.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:31):

I would love to see a photo. I would never part ways with this, especially because, I don't know, I feel like one, the stones that come from the ground, just that's such pure, incredible energy. And the fact that you carried them throughout, that just means that I feel like they, they're holding the lesson with you and they're holding that experience with you. So I would love to just keep them as a keepsake. What a great souvenir. It's a great so story.

A. Helwa (01:07:59):

Yeah. I actually made it them into rings and a bracelet and I wear it sometimes to remind me who I am, which is a girl lost in the desert and who Allah is. That's incredible.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:14):

That's so good.

A. Helwa (01:08:15):

Who can guide you without maps?

Noor Tagouri (01:08:18):

Okay, so you know how we're on the same radio frequency right now. So I will continue on this. What's very in tune right now is fun facts that I've never actually shared with anyone. But sometimes, a lot of times, Adam, my husband will read to me as I go to bed, like a bedtime story. I love a bedtime story. So for the last week, he was reading the secrets book, but yesterday for the first time, he was like, like, do you have the secrets book? Is that what you want for me to read to you tonight? I know it sounds very childish, but it's like, to me, that's like my love history. Sweet. I really love it. And I said, not tonight, I actually want you to read for, I had a pretty challenging day yesterday. So I was like, I actually want you to read from this other book that I had just started. And my former teammate had sent it to me because I told her about a project I was working on and she said, I think that you need to read this book. And the book was a field guide to Getting Lost. And are you familiar with this book?

A. Helwa (01:09:31):

No, I haven't heard of it.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:34):

Oh my gosh. And so literally the words that I fell asleep to last night were about how people get lost, why people get lost, and how they either do or don't get found. And so when you're telling me the story in my head, I'm just like, I have this next layer of understanding and perspective because there's actually art to getting lost and getting found. And I am, we've only started this book, so I'm still early in this process. But it's so amazing that you've brought this up because in this, the thick of this journey that I'm on personally, I come back to often the beauty in getting lost in that, how do we actually celebrate getting lost? How do we embrace getting lost? How do we recognize that getting lost is not actually a bad thing? I mean, obviously when you're lost in a desert for many, many hours and you have to face death in that way, it's not like the healthiest best thing.

(01:10:38):

But the idea and the feel, the getting lost is a mindset. And that's actually what the book had said. It was getting lost as a mindset. And how, right now, for me at least, so the next project that I'm working on is a documentary series documenting the state of religion, spirituality, and faith. Wow. Today and amazing, every one of my projects, it's this broader investigation, but it's rooted in this personal journey of me going on this and me trying to figure out what is this state and why have so many people felt the need to leave religion? Why are more people leaning towards spirituality? In that same podcast that I had listened to with the reverend, with Krisa Tippett, she mentions how the perception of spirituality versus religion, people often think of spirituality as just fluff and you just don't want to commit to anything.

(01:11:35):

So you're just going to call yourself that. But it's actually such engaging, intentional practice and connection to God. And so I've just been thinking about how people have, and I think about language a lot and how we say a lot of us say the same words, but we don't mean the same things. And so for example, this is a very vulnerable example, but I am part of the journey that I'm on right now is taking a step back from the hijab or from covering, which is I'm approaching 30 and it's something I've done since I was 15 years old and feels like a step that I really need to take for myself because of just all of the weight that I've carried and for many personal reasons. And to some of my loved ones, it may comes off to them as a lack of faith.

(01:12:30):

And to me, it's an act of faith or a leap of faith because it's an action that I feel so deeply that I'm taking to say, I only want to do things that I know I'm doing for God and not for other people, or not because of expectations or because of perception. And I need to figure this out my myself. So I've been thinking today and yesterday about this idea of how many of us define faith differently. And I think that language is always a good starting place, but language is also a tool in which we can come back to and we can use on the path to being lost. To getting lost. So I know you just shared your story of getting lost, but post that experience, especially since you were writing secrets during that process, how did you tap into the tool of language and maybe even specifically the word faith, if you have a definition for that, how did that become a tool that you put into your kit for the next potential time you found yourself in a desert for 20 hours?

A. Helwa (01:13:46):

Wow. What feels like it comes up right now is there's actually these words I wrote and it's literally titled Religious Shame.

(01:14:03):

And I feel like I want to share this with you, but before that, in regards to what you shared about your journey, it's about I feel like the Islamic path is about love and that love. Someone once asked me to find love and I said death. And it's a feeling of being willing to die into the presence. And there's a story of story of Nassredine. I always go back to the Mullah Nassredine. He's like this comical character. Many countries call them, call him theirs. But he goes across time and space and there's a story of him where he's late and he runs into the mosque to pray and he does his prayers kind of quickly. And then the imam grabs him and he's like, Nassredine, what was that? That was lightning. That doesn't count. Now do your prayers intentionally and slowly. And the imam stood there and Nassredine like prayed slowly. And then the imam said, now, which one do you think God would like better? And Nassredine said, well, the first one I did for God, but the second one I did for you.

(01:15:31):

And it's just a reminder that we have to make our religion our own and the companions, the family of the prophet piece upon, don't inherit your faith. Investigate it. Yes, be present with it. And that's takes a lot of courage. And I believe that the path of Islam is really, it's actually quite sophisticated and beautiful. It's clear, but it's not simple. It takes time to sit with it and ask for Allah to open the way for us. And so in response to this question of faith, like there is this, there's these words I wrote about religious shame and it frames how some of us reapproach faith in our taking in some of our cultural influences that sometimes aren't the true truth of faith. And so I'm just, if we have time, it's just a few minutes. I thought I could read this. I love that.

(01:16:46):

The day I learned God's name, I also learned guilt. I also learned shame. Self-hate was the first messenger that came. See as a child, no one told me that God and punishment were not the same the way I was raised, placed even more seeds of fear into my faith. Preachers paved into my brain so many pathways, brimstone and hate that the thousand sermons in my head eventually Brayden to a single voice that said, you will never be forgiven. You will never be saved. Before I could even love God, I was already far too afraid. He would throw me into an ocean of flames. Shame is a disease that seeps into my heart vein deep, but it's more than this blood that I bleed. It bleeds into my self-worth convincing me. I am nothing more than my weight and dirt. Shame is a cigarette bud in a forest to drop brush.

(01:17:45):

She doesn't take much to burn you up and make you think you don't deserve to be loved. I didn't think I deserve to be loved. So it's no surprise I couldn't accept who I was. It's no surprise I tried to hide beneath the surface, try to convince the world and myself that I was perfect as I felt this person to be worthless. I was a thousand different people each more broken than staying glass and cathedrals binging on shame and doses that were lethal until I was convinced that God's mercy must not exist. How could a loving God make you feel like this? You don't deserve to live. Shame must be the devil's greatest trick because A placed a vast abyss between me and my God convincing me I was a fraud. That I was my flaws. It took 10 years before I saw that I never felt like I belonged because my perception of God was wrong.

(01:18:44):

I realized the real lie was to think I had to be perfect to come to faith when it's God who erases all our mistakes. I wish I could go back in the past and make that confused girl, grasp the infinite mercy that God has. I wish someone would've been there to say what I will say today. God's love is not just based on how we behave. He's entirely independent for what he creates. His love is unconditional. He doesn't just depend on our faith, our actions and thoughts could never change the fact that God cares that his love is infinite and God shares that His mercy proceeds his wrath. That love are the tiles that his path that he doesn't judge or condemn our filth or our sins only seeks for us to turn back to him. So don't be afraid to come with your shame.

(01:19:40):

God already knows everything anyways, not returning to God because you're too filthy. It's like not taking a shower because you're too dirty. It makes no sense because if we didn't make mistakes, God said he'd create another creation that did because he loves that much to forgive. So this life, it's not about wrong versus right. It's about reaching toward the light. It's about knowing who you are, that you are not defined by your scars, that you were chosen over the mountains and the stars to be the carrier of God's names in your heart. So next time shame tries to poke holes in your boat of faith. Next time you hear whispers that say, you'll never be saved, look at the SSP and straighten the eyes and tear off your human disguise and blind the darkness with your infinite light. Tell the devil that this time you won't be tricked by his lies. That this time you see that you are a mirror for the divine, so you are already perfect inside. Because perfection is not to be free from flaws or defects. It's to never forget the forgiving God that you reflect.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:58):

And one plus one equals two. And that's what she prefers. That was. Thank you.

*AD BREAK*

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A. Helwa (01:21:07):

I just share this because I wrote this just about 10 years ago. So it's a reminder that we all come onto this path from our different stories and our different pains and our different burdens. And if we pray to God to show us a path beyond and past the things that we inherited, it says light, light and love that shines through and our histories can sometimes get in the way of receiving that. And that's the practice of AstaghfirullahulAtheem, it's turning from that which is not true or illusion to that which is true, InshaAllah.

Noor Tagouri (01:22:05):

Thank you. Helwa. What is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

A. Helwa (01:22:48):

I feel like it's less a question and more a prayer.

Noor Tagouri (01:22:54):

Beautiful.

A. Helwa (01:22:58):

I asked one of my friends once, she's a spiritual companion, what legacy do you want to leave this earth when you pass? And she said, I want to leave this earth a sincere prayer. I want my legacy to be that. So I've started to sort of call into my heart prayers now, not just because questions get me lost in the desert, but No, I'm just kidding.

Noor Tagouri (01:23:41):

Never asks another question again.

A. Helwa (01:23:43):

Never asks another question. Unless I'm in a mall in Dubai. I'm not asking questions, I'm just kidding. No, yeah. But the question that's like question slash prayer I guess on my heart is Allah guide me to hold myself with the gentleness I so easily hold others with. In the past I would've asked, Allah, how can I hold myself with a gentleness that I, but I don't, I want to receive the epiphany in my heart and not in my mind. So I reframe it into a prayer.

Noor Tagouri (01:24:40):

Whoa. I like that. Reframing questions into prayers so that you can receive the epiphany in your heart instead of your mind. That's a bar.

A. Helwa (01:24:55):

Okay,

Noor Tagouri (01:24:56):

Thank you. Thank you. Sure. So we have this beautiful book club of your book, Secrets of Divine Love. And it's wild because I had posted about the book and my aunt had gifted it to me years ago, and many people in the book club, it was one of those things that, it's funny enough, actually, I think it was when I kind of, in the beginning of my journey, in this chapter of my journey where I had this realization, I was like, you know what? I think I just really need to read the Quran. And then instead what popped up, literally the book was on my bench and I had really seen it for the first time was Secrets of Divine Love. And I realized that it needed, I needed to start here because I had built up so much resistance that I needed to just feel immense amounts of love from the word of God before being as a way to start softening my heart, I think.

(01:26:10):

And anyway, I shared the book and I said, I was like, if I had the capacity to do this as a book club, I would, but I think part of me was just like, let me just put this out there and see how people react. And I had never received such a reaction where people not only were like, please actually make this a book club, but they wanted to be of service. And so I couldn't even tell you how many people were like, I know you don't have capacity, so I can handle this, or I'll do this or I'll do this, let's just do it. And I was like, whoa. And it felt like such a responsibility. And we had shared the signup a few times and we got 1100 signups, which is kind of bonkers. And the, yeah, subhanAllah and it's just been become such a beautiful community where during Ramadan, every Sunday we have about a couple hundred people come on and sit for two to three hours and we share and we talk and we ask questions. So I want to honor their time. I had them submit questions and there's quite a few, but I'm only going to ask a couple because I know, okay.

(01:27:21):

I mean I know that you're probably, it's very late to where you are.

A. Helwa (01:27:26):

So Ramadan nights.

Noor Tagouri (01:27:28):

Yeah, exactly. Okay. They're very profound questions, but I'll ask to one from Amira in the Philippines, which actually I really like this one. What does Jannah mean to you? Or Paradise Or heaven? What does that mean to you?

A. Helwa (01:27:50):

So the first thing that came up for me was that everything in this realm is a symbol. And in that symbol, it's hiding its essence. And what we reach for is the essence, but we see the symbol. So if I was sitting in front of you, I would be reaching for present with this quality in you that language couldn't capture, but we would land on a hug.

Noor Tagouri (01:28:32):

Yes.

A. Helwa (01:28:32):

It's like you would hit a symbol. Everything here is symbols, just like language. The beautiful thing about Arabic is it's. The root system shows you that there's more to it. And so I feel like heaven is a place where the cloak comes off and you're in the pure essence of that, which it's like in quantum anyways, in quantum mechanics you have something called entangled electrons. And it's like

Noor Tagouri (01:29:08):

Yes we love Quantum talk here.

A. Helwa (01:29:08):

Okay, okay, well there's this entanglement with essence, and you're finally present without separation,

(01:29:20):

But in light. And to me, that's the deep long, it's the filling of every space and the heart. But the filling is interesting because the space is the illusion, and that's what you notice. So it's a completion. And so for me, that's like being with the presence of the prophets speak upon them all and the guys and the teachers and holy people, and of course, God, but how are you with unity as a separate self? And it's really that dissolving is like, so yeah, I feel like at the core of all my longing is, is that desire for unity. So for me, heaven would be that to be with the essence without the separation of forms.

Noor Tagouri (01:30:21):

So I'm so happy you shared that because that's how I've actually been reflecting on it too, is just being in the purest form of unity and oneness where we're all kind of back together in that way. So this question is from Juhi from New York. What is something unexpected you learned during the research process, either about Islam or other cultures and religions you mentioned in the book?

A. Helwa (01:30:57):

That's a really good question.

Noor Tagouri (01:31:01):

She's a great question asker.

A. Helwa (01:31:03):

Yeah, she's good, man. That's one of the things I did realize with the book club was just how wonderfully intelligent and deep and beautiful and sensitive and generous and amazing. These, I think mostly women, but it's just so beautiful. I just was blown away. There's definitely some writers, poets and philosophers night

Noor Tagouri (01:31:30):

That tends to be the audience,

A. Helwa (01:31:34):

Man. It's that radio tuning you got going there.

Noor Tagouri (01:31:37):

We love it.

A. Helwa (01:31:39):

That's a great question. So one of the things that I think really surprised me was how much the theology of different traditions can be different, but how the stories are so similar. And I find that to be, so one of the things that I've found, if you asked me if I had a day off, what I would spend doing in terms of reading, it would always be collecting stories. That's my thing. Go to libraries, collect stories. It's the thing I love doing more than anything. And that's where I really learned that our experiences as human beings are very, very similar.

(01:32:27):

The meaning we attribute to things can be very different, but if you really listen to a person, to people across time actually and space reading these books, but even in the present moment, I learned if you really listen not to what a person is saying, but to what is moving them, you'll find that it's not that different from you. So you may have someone who's politically very different from you and you may say that's really, that's racist, that's discriminatory. And if you ask them, well, why did you say that? And why and why? And you keep asking, they usually end up at a value that you agree with. But the way they imagine obtaining that value may be something you're mentally against.

(01:33:21):

And for me, it's always been so interesting because you see that across traditions too, that we are all looking for love, we're all looking for home, we're all looking for lo belonging. But sometimes that leads to oppression. I don't agree with that. But that deep belonging inside is a truth. And one of the ways it's described as it's a quality of God hits the mirror of the heart, but if there's a crack based on a trauma or wound, the light refracts and that refraction leads to pain, suffering, oppression, or the real longing for human beings is we're all reaching for God. We just land on different things. And for me, it was just a really beautiful teaching. And it's still unfolding, I think in many ways.

Noor Tagouri (01:34:23):

I have a little sub-question to that because I, it's less specific, but it's more, I mean, your answer right now feels less specific, but more of the broader light that encompasses the body of work. And just in brief words, aside from getting lost in the desert, if you were to tell somebody in a couple of sentences how you received this book, I don't want to even say, how did you write this book? How did you receive it? How did you create this space inside of you to be open enough to receiving this book? What does that look like?

A. Helwa (01:35:05):

I remember the moment very clearly was it's actually, well, it's actually three moments really. The first moment was a teacher of mine put her hand on my back and said, how are you doing? And I said, I'm good. And then she said, how are you doing, really? And I was waterworks, totally a mess. That was the first experience of someone saying, I care about your truth. And then the blessing of receiving so many beautiful teachings and just feeling loving it. And then the next moment, which was now it's time to share. And me going, no, no, no, not me. Not me, not me. Yep. Not me. So the denial came very quick. No, not me, other people, someone else, a chef, any mom, someone who was whatever. And it was just, no, no, no.

(01:36:13):

And then the next piece came, which is then I heard the pain of someone's voice tuned in the universe saying, I'm not, well, really there's a longing, really? And it was like that teacher that placed her hand on my back and said, I care about you. It was like the mantle was passed. You're not going to do it the way I did, but put your hand on someone else's back. And what does it look like for you to say, I care about you, really? And that's really what it felt like. It felt like the book really just came in for a one person. It still blows me away. And it's actually interesting since, because that's actually in the book, and I remember my editor being like, what is this? Make no sense? I'm like, I don't think it's supposed to make sense. Person who knows will know. They'll know

Noor Tagouri (01:37:08):

They'll know. But then everybody in book club raises their hand. They're like, that was me.

A. Helwa (01:37:13):

And then it's funny because that's what happened is people started messaging. I think it was my prayer, I think it was my, and I'm like, I think it was the plane of existence. Exactly, exactly. It's that place that you full circle where present, and it's like everyone arrived there and it could have came to anyone in that plane. That's why I don't take it so seriously. That also, back to the pseudonym, it's appropriate to have a name that's in that just reflects beauty, God's beauty. And it's not really owned by anyone because it's, it came down to one just like, okay, you wrote it. And I know sometimes I say that and people are like, oh, are you saying this is Revelation? No, I just mean in my own little world, God inspired me. He has inspired many writers and artists, I think.

Noor Tagouri (01:38:08):

Yeah. But isn't it all revelation in a way? Why does, do we have to get into the semantics of what the technicalities of that requires? I feel like, and you say with artists and writers, and I say this, I know my tone sounds a little bit frustrated, but it's just like, but God speaks through all of us, and in our words, and I always call it downloads or channeling when it's bigger than you, and why do we have to put shame around that? I feel like it's actually giving God the credit for using you as a vessel. And that is, to me, the most important prayer or ask that I have is just continue to use me as a vessel. I don't know for what this time or this day or whatever, but I know that I can feel peace when it gets really scary because that is the guidance that is being given.

A. Helwa (01:39:04):

I agree. I mean, I see revelation as revealed truth. Exactly. Meaning it's been present always. Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:39:10):

Yes. So

A. Helwa (01:39:11):

Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:39:11):

Yes. Yeah. Juhi also asks, what are you currently reading or listening to right now?

A. Helwa (01:39:18):

Ooh, good question. Yeah. I'm actually currently reading two books. One is this, it's called Roomy Daylight. It's just selections of roomies poetry. And usually when I'm traveling, I read poetry because you're in a train, in a bus, in a plane, and it's nice just to take one or a few verses in. And then of course, the Quran because of the month of Ramadan. But

Noor Tagouri (01:39:51):

Do you have a translation that you read, or do you only read it in Arabic?

A. Helwa (01:39:55):

So I do both. But the translations I've, and it's, it's so interesting with translation because I like to read different ones because people have different takes on the same words. But I like Yahiya Emerick's, I like Muhammad Asad's, just reading through the different styles. But I'll always try to have a different translation every year. Interesting. And it almost like it illuminates different aspects of the revelation, which I found I found a lot of value in. And then I'm actually, so aside from the poetry book, I'm actually in a learning about the sacred tradition of music, which is a little, people get what think about in the Islamic world, but it's about the different spiritual traditions and the influences of music. Because even in Palestine, you used to, 400 years ago on the steps of near Al Aqsa mosque, they used to have masters teach the nay, the oud. It was very much a part of the culture in Turkey that used to have Maqams, which is the musical tunings of whatever, and they would prescribe them as medicine to,

Noor Tagouri (01:41:25):

Yeah, because it's vibration.

A. Helwa (01:41:28):

And it's just then all across into the Christian tradition, the Hindu just all across. It's just interesting to see how people interacted with sound. And I think it's really important as I'm sitting deeply with Quran being a recital and sound and the impact of its sound. And a lot of people who study deeply the different recitations of the Quran have a really good understanding of music and tonal and their tonal and melo melody. So it's really just very fascinating. And I think it's one of the ways that I just say that anyone's out there is if you're studying faith study other modalities, maybe it's philosophy, maybe it's neuroscience, maybe it's physics, but it enriches. It really does enrich because it widens your mind to see different signs. So yeah, I've just been really enjoying this course.

Noor Tagouri (01:42:30):

I love that. My sub-question to that is when a person chooses to embark on a spiritual journey and they're afraid and they're leaving behind what they know to go into the unknown, what is the book that you're like, take this with you as a companion?

A. Helwa (01:42:55):

I think it's funny because I'm flipping in the library of my mind, but what I actually land on, which is not very satisfying, I think for people, is I would actually take an empty notebook. And

Noor Tagouri (01:43:15):

Of course you said that,

A. Helwa (01:43:16):

And I would let your journey speak to you and make space

Noor Tagouri (01:43:22):

That's perfect

A. Helwa (01:43:24):

To live your own. Rumi says, don't read the myths of others. Unfold your own. So how God is guiding you speak to you. Doesn't mean you won't get counsel from outside and be influenced, but let your own words. Sometimes my friends won't pen pal, and often when they send me what they wrote, I'll record myself reading it and send it back to them, which sounds like you would enjoy that.

Noor Tagouri (01:43:55):

I would love that

A. Helwa (01:43:59):

But I do that because I genuinely believe that there's something in the recited word back. That you now, you're receiving it through different mode. And I think that can be really healing. So to write and to read it out loud to yourself, to engage with your feelings, to make space for how you feel.

Noor Tagouri (01:44:21):

Yeah.

A. Helwa (01:44:22):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:44:23):

Oh, beautiful. Thank you. And then the way we wrap these conversations is a fill in the blank. So you can share one, two, or three statements filling in the blank. If you really knew me, you would know. And you got to make it spicy because you write under a pseudonym. I don't even know what you look like. I know nothing about you except for what has been published. So if you really knew me, you would know what?

A. Helwa (01:44:56):

Ooh, you would know. I love to ride my skateboard to the beach. Oh my God. It's messing people's image of who I am right now.

Noor Tagouri (01:45:07):

No, this is exactly the image that I need. Thank you.

A. Helwa (01:45:11):

Okay. Do you have to do three statements?

Noor Tagouri (01:45:13):

You can do it. Do you feel content with one? If you want to do more, you can. I would love more because this is the inside scoop. This is, if

A. Helwa (01:45:21):

If you really knew me, you would know that I would write texts that entirely rhyme for 20 lines for no good reason. And I can't stop. It's a problem. If you knew me, you'd know that I randomly call my friends and I totally write friendship, love letters. And if you really knew me, you would know that I genuinely think that I'm the most average Muslim that I know, and I feel beyond grateful for the friends that I have that continue to inspire me. And I would include your name in that list, Noor.

Noor Tagouri (01:46:15):

Does this mean I get a friendship letter?

A. Helwa (01:46:16):

Yeah. Oh my God. Long rhymey letter.

Noor Tagouri (01:46:20):

I only

A. Helwa (01:46:21):

Rhyme. Yeah. But really, I know that people who came on this call, maybe some people are listening to this that didn't but you by the grace of God, so masterfully hold space for people and so sincerely ask questions. And I know that you do this. This is something you're really good at, and I'm sure you've been doing it for a while, but it's not just how you do it, it's the spirit in which you hold people with. It's so genuine and it's so sincere. And I deeply pray that Allah gives you the ease and the gentleness you give others that you're able to give that to yourself. And that as you're walking through this journey that you're on, that you feel his presence so close to you in every moment. And then in those lonely moments of solitude where everyone else is asleep or everyone else is in their own worlds, that you feel the presence of the God who created all worlds, that He's with you. And I deeply, deeply pray for you to have the openings that you seek and that you feel safe, secure, and mercy and kindness of Allah upon you always, ameen

Noor Tagouri (01:47:38):

Ameen, I am going to receive all of that because I know that that came from outside of you and above you and around you and all of the things. And it is more than appreciated. And thank you for putting your insides onto paper and giving a lot of people the opportunity to see that the language of God is one of love, and it's one of love that exceeds the definition of love that we were taught. And the fear that we were taught is something that we have the courage and ability and strength to let go of so that we can embody and embrace ourselves in awe and in love and in graciousness. And that friendship is a medicine that allows us to continue that love. And so I'm grateful for your time and I'm grateful for your truth, and I'm grateful for your feedback and your light. And thank you for blessing our book club and allowing us to have this space where people can just literally show up exactly as they are. And be loved and be loved.

A. Helwa (01:48:52):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (01:48:53):

And also, I truly pray and hope that this trip that you take to Falasteen is filled with the inner peace and that inner peace radiates across the land that is experiencing so much violation violence, and that when you are there, you are embodying a light that can be covered and a light that can cover others and can protect them and protect you. And that you find a lot of stray cats who remind you that cats are Muslim and that they are filled with God's love and light, and that you eat amazing food and that you remember and you realize and you see exactly the humanity that we are meant to serve.

A. Helwa (01:49:48):

Ameen,

Noor Tagouri (01:49:51):

We did it.

A. Helwa (01:49:52):

Yay.

Noor Tagouri (01:49:53):

Thank you so much.

A. Helwa (01:49:55):

Thank you.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER A. HELWA. MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR COPY OF SECRETS OF DIVINE LOVE. 

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.