(Transcript) Lindsay Peoples and Samira Nasr: Advice to Journalists, Working in Fashion Media, and The Role of Editor-in-Chief

INTRO: 

3…2..1..WELCOME TO OUR FIRST GROUP STORYTELLING SESSION! I LOVE FACILITATING PANEL DISCUSSIONS AND FOR THIS SEASON OF POD NOOR, WE WANTED BRING THAT COLLECTIVE ENERGY HERE. AND FOR THIS WEEK’S EPISODE, IT REALLY IS A SPECIAL GIFT. OUR STORYTELLERS THIS WEEK ARE NOT ONE, BUT TWO, OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND PROMINENT MAGAZINE EDITORS. SAMIRA NASR, IS THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF HARPERS’ BAZAAR MAGAZINE, AND THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO HOLD THE TITLE. SAMIRA WAS PREVIOUSLY AT VANITY FAIR, WHERE SHE SERVED AS EXECUTIVE FASHION DIRECTOR. AND IN HER OWN WORDS SHE IS QUOTE: THE PROUD DAUGHTER OF A LEBANESE FATHER AND TRINIDIDADIAN MOTHER…AND HER WORLDVIEW IS EXPANSIVE AND ANCHORED IN THE BELIEF THAT REPRESENTATION MATTERS. 

ALONGSIDE SAMIRA, WE WELCOME LINDSAY PEOPLES. EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE CUT MAGAZINE. ALSO, ONE OF THE NATION’S RARE BLACK WOMEN EDITORS IN CHIEF. LINDSAY WAS PREVIOUSLY THE EIC OF TEEN VOGUE, AND THE YOUNGEST EDITOR IN CHIEF OF A CONDE NAST MAGAZINE. SHE ALSO CO-FOUNDED THE BLACK IN FASHION COUNCIL, which has enlisted the support of the Human Rights Campaign to provide benchmarking around corporate policies and practices that are pertinent to the inclusivity of Black employees.

I HAVE BEEN IN AWE OF BOTH OF THESE WOMEN FOR YEARS. WITNESSING UP CLOSE THE WAY THEY HAVE BROKEN BARRIERS BOTH IN JOURNALISM AND IN FASHION. 

AND IT IS RIGHT HERE, ON PODCAST NOOR, THAT THESE TWO POWERHOUSES ARE IN A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME. WELCOME TO OUR FIRST PODCAST PANEL. LET’S GET INTO IT. 

Noor Tagouri:

I love you both so much and I'm so grateful that you're both here together. But I've actually never seen you guys in conversation together. And you both,

Samira Nasr (00:45):

We've never done this. We've never done

Noor Tagouri (00:46):

But you both run publications that I am a huge fan of but also have completely different approaches and voices and visions. And so I think if I feel so honored and grateful that you are here and you're going, we're to be conversation and the way that we kick off these conversations is a question I've asked you both probably a hundred times. And I love that you maybe already know what the question is. But the question is, how is your heart doing today? And since Samira I felt coming out of your body as soon as I saw you, you can kick this off.

Samira Nasr (01:21):

I was going to kick it to you, but I'll take it. Yes. My heart is very heavy. It's been heavy for a long time. It is especially heavy with the news coming out of Kansas and that little boy who was simply just being in the world and going to pick up his two siblings. And I just, I'm at a point and we were talking about this earlier where I can't can't, my nervous system and it's not even happening to me, but it is happening to me. And my nervous system can't take much more of the, it's, it's just death and destruction. And there are just certain groups that are not safe in this country. And it's that compounded with our rights and being decimated. It's like every day you wake up and you read the paper and it's like another incredible book has been banned Rights body, the right to choose and make choices about our bodies are being taken away slowly across this whole country. Little boys are being murdered. I mean my heart is heavy, my heart is so heavy and I, I'm know how to fix it. I wish I could fix it and I don't know how to fix it.

Noor Tagouri (02:56):

Thank you.

(02:59):

I don't want to cry today.

Lindsay Peoples (03:00):

I cry a lot.

Samira Nasr (03:01):

I cry all the time.

Lindsay Peoples (03:02):

I cry every day. I cry all the time.

Noor Tagouri (03:05):

Yeah, and we kind of need to know that too. I think crying is really great today, especially. So El, tell me about your heart.

Lindsay Peoples (04:57):

Oh man. What word would I use? I would say fragile.

Noor Tagouri (05:03):

Yeah

Lindsay Peoples (05:08):

It's like a weird combination of things. I think I love this job so much. Yeah, it's exactly what I never knew that I even wanted to do with my life. But it is relentless and it just requires a discipline that just doesn't let up that I think people don't really understand. And I take that in consideration when people will DM me and be like, why did the cut do this? Or why? I'm like, you have no idea how much work goes into it. Nothing is just for no reason. Everything specifically at the cut is so intentional and self sought out. And as Samira was saying, I think it just requires a lot of you to read everything, to know everything for your job. But then also because I care about the world and I want to know what is happening in the world, but then to try to change the world and try to make things better on top of that can feel a little insurmountable. And days today it's raining in New York and there's just a lot happening that I think it feels like one wrong thing and I'm like, okay, I need to lay down one more thing, which I hate feeling that way.

Noor Tagouri (06:37):

Both of you hold a position of editor in chief of both The Cut and Harper's Bazaar. What do you feel is the responsibility of an editor in chief of a publication of a media publication today? And how do you feel your definitions of that responsibility are different than maybe the publications you came from?

Lindsay Peoples (07:04):

I think traditionally the responsibility was to really take the throne of this is who we think is cool, this is what we think is happening. And I think a lot more of my approach is to let culture kind of decide and not be so judgmental, not be so that I think that we know and not be so set on judging whether a person should be canceled or whether a person is cool or how do we define if a person is good enough for something. And so I think my approach is just more, this is who I think people really love, want to follow care about, et cetera. Or this is what I think people need to care more about that other people care about. But this certain group of people don't understand why it's more important than they realize.

(07:55):

And I think that responsibility just shifted over time. But I think also both places that I've been editor-in-chief are places that I've worked before. And so I had just such a acute gut, deep love for Teen Vogue. And the same with the Cut, just read it all the time. As I got older, I read The Cut, but I grew up reading Teen Vogue and I still have all the old magazines. So I think my perspective was more so as someone who works there and then coming back, things that I wanted to build upon the foundation that was already there and things that I felt like I loved than I wanted to keep. And a lot of things that I felt like didn't serve the brand anymore.

Samira Nasr (08:40):

I would say for Harper's Bazaar, I like to say that we are at the intersection of luxury fashion and culture. And so while the people that I'm surrounded with, my colleagues, we all come from very distinct places, different places. We're all rooted in shared values. And I think we share a curiosity about our place and the world around us. So I think my job as editor-in-chief is to sort of set the direction and then a lot of times I just get out of the way, get out of the way and let them do what they are so gifted at doing. Certainly I bring my values and having existed for as long as I've existed in the world and been othered my whole life, that's something that's part of who I am. And so I have a natural curiosity towards injustice and to people and groups who, for whatever reason just don't feel included.

(09:56):

And so part of what I've taken a special joy in doing at Harper's Bazaar is making people feel included. And literally it is the greatest compliment that anyone can pay me when people stop me or whatever. And they say, I love what they're doing is I see myself and what you're doing. It is the single greatest compliment that anyone could pay me. But I think the job at EIC has changed so drastically now versus what it once was. I think back to these brilliant editors that have had these decades long career careers, but they literally just had a magazine to put out every month. Which can you imagine if that's all you had to do? No, we are media brands and we have to meet our audience wherever they consume us or wherever they're looking for us. So that's social media, that's digital, that's print. And so it's a lot more involved. It's a lot more complex. And I think to Lindsay's point it is, it's a lot of pressure.

Noor Tagouri (11:09):

Well, because there's also this added layer of responsibility that isn't typically included in your job description with words, but maybe is included in your job description when you're getting hired, which is this. And it's the same weight and heaviness that I feel on both of you every time I see you guys, because I know that there's, you're carrying this responsibility of there are the stories that we're presenting to the world and then there's the pain that is being presented in this world that is being experienced in this world. And how do we balance being of service in a way that our audience can actually receive it? Cause you can sit there and report on social justice and injustices all day, but you also know that you know exactly what story's going to get clicked on. And so there's this balance of making sure that you're using your team's time wisely and impactfully, but also that at the end of the day, you can't control how the story is received and you can't fully control the experience that ends up coming from it.

(12:20):

And I don't know, for me, I feel like if that was a responsibility that would keep me up at night because I just, like you said Samir, I don't know what I would do. And so in all of the, I don't know, what are some questions that you ask yourself so that you can do your jobs better? And I feel like this is so personal and it doesn't have to be specific to just the job, but what are questions that you're asking yourself about how you can show up as a human who happens to occupy such a profound job?

Samira Nasr (12:53):

I don't approach it like that. I really don't. I am comfortable with what I am rooted in. I, I very, I have a lot of things that I, there's a lot of doubt in me, but one thing that I never doubt is where I come from, who I am and what my values are. My moral compass is strong. So I don't ask myself those questions and I cannot be buried under the weight of worry in terms of how people are going to receive the stories. I think if you just do the, and also it's fashion and it shouldn't feel heavy. It should feel joyful and light. And we can tackle subjects with rigor and we can tackle subjects with an intensity. But I don't think what we do should feel heavy not reporting. I'm not a news organization and I make that really clear to the team, don't, not a news outlet.

(14:02):

So we can't cover the news, but how can we cover the things that we care about in the way and bring them into our world and look at them through our lens. And beyond that, I can't worry about how people are going to receive those stories if we do it with a clear heart and we work hard on these stories once they go out in the world. I think so many people have touched them because that's the beauty of what we do. It's teamwork. So if I may not have a blind spot, someone on my team doesn't have that same blind spot, so they're like, oh, did you think about this? And so that's the beauty of collaboration because we all come at it with different blind spots and we can all catch one another. And then once it goes out, I can't worry about that. Let go. I got it. Let go of that. Yeah.

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Noor Tagouri (14:48):

Thank you for sharing that. What about you?

Lindsay Peoples (14:52):

I think it's more of, we were talking about cooking. I think it's more of when you're making a meal, there's certain things that you're making at certain times when you time, time meal that you're making. So it's like there could be your main dish in the oven that's cooking for a couple hours, but then you're moving stuff on the stovetop and constantly moving things around of what's warm, what's ready, what takes longer to cook. And I think a lot of times I'm not really thinking about, I don't really have the bandwidth honestly, to think about myself or what I think or what people are going to worry about. Yeah. Because man, I can't even go there because it doesn't, I don't even have the space honestly, mentally. I think it's more so we want the journey at the cut to be an adventure for people.

(15:38):

We want it to be a relationship. I don't want it to be transactional. I don't want it to be just like, oh, I see this one thing and then I saw it and then I'm done. I want it to really feel like they know us and they're part of a community. And I mean we like to say, we want to be the thing in your group chat. We want to be the thing that you're sending to your friends like, oh, did you see this? We have to talk about this at dinner, et cetera. And I think obviously New York Magazine a lot more news oriented, but a lot of it for me is, okay, if the lens is inclusivity, then what ways do we find into all these stories that there's going to be some things that we really want to do? And that there's, there's going to be some things that are really going to break my heart that we have to do regardless of how we feel about it. And so I feel like I'm constantly moving things around editorially to make sure that it is a journey and that it's not one note. So even when I think about last year, cause I was looking at covers this morning for something around this time we did the Trayvon Martin Black Lives Matter issue, but then we did the Women of Euphoria and then we did a service issue on abortion. We like to keep it spicy as I would say, but it's important

Noor Tagouri (16:51):

It's very light fold, life fold. It does kind of feel like we're getting, I don't know your description of we want to be in your group chats. That's very much what's happening. Yeah. In our lives. Okay. So tell me about the resources that magazines are actually getting right now. I'm so curious about, no, I know this is why I'm asking because there's like, people have very strong feelings about I think print media right now or just magazines in general. What are the actual resources that you're getting? What are the resources that are needed and how are you balancing that navigation?

Lindsay Peoples (17:36):

I laughed because I remembered the other day I was talking to someone about when we used to have swim editors and dem editor denim editors. There used to be so many.

Noor Tagouri (17:44):

There was an editor just for Swim for

Lindsay Peoples (17:46):

Market Deni. Yeah. There was always just a swim person that just went to Miami Swim fashion.

(17:53):

There used to be so many different editors and I feel like now because we have podcasts and TV and dada it, it's meshed into a lot of different jobs into one. But I think a lot of it, honestly for me in this job, there are a lot of resources, but I think there's so much happening that it's hard to figure out what is this thing that we want to put our weight behind? And especially because you do a lot of long form or investigative reporting, you want to make sure that the bet that you're making is a smart one and a safe one in the sense of safe. And in the sense of this is the reporting's not going to fall through or people aren't going to say that they don't want to be part of the story anymore or something like that. And writers work for a really long time on a story and then they need something else to take a break from. And so I think the resources are there and the desire for journalism is there. But I also think people don't understand the amount of work that it takes to go into to pieces. I mean just production of shoots is so many people. But I do think even if I'm just specifically talking about reporting, a lot of times I don't think people understand when they'll say like, oh, why did you do this story? And this feels like it.

(19:15):

This feels like it. This feels like it. There wasn't enough people. And it's like, you don't realize we could talk to a hundred people just to get to just get to this reporting that we do have. And fat checkers and lawyers, there's so many people involved. And so I do think the resources are there for the right kinds of stories. But traditionally shoots used to cost way more than they do now. For sure. I would say

Samira Nasr (19:40):

I would just add, I would amplify that or I would second that we have resources. It's so many other places that we need to, it's like where are you going to allocate them to and what are you going to get behind and how are you going to use them? Yeah. It's not that we don't have resources. You have to be wise in how you use them. Yeah, well and where are they going? And I would also agree that this idea that when people say, oh, I just do print, I'm like n n no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You work at Harper's Bazaar and we are nimble and we work across platform and it's just, you may be print focused, but that doesn't mean just this mentality that people just do. One single thing is very outdated. I think people have to consider that these are brands and we work at a brand and there may be a focus, but people mean so many people on my team work cross platform. And that's just how we have to be. And as I have to decide, okay, if this is the pie of resources, how am I going to allocate them strategically? And it is something that is very hard to learn. It is something that I really struggle with and it's actually one of my immediate goals is to get better at being more strategic about it.

Noor Tagouri (21:12):

Thank you for sharing that. I remember when I first started journalism school, when I was in journalism school 10 years ago, and how at the time all my professors were adjuncts. So they all worked in news and in media. And I just remember I had this one professor who kept telling all of us, gone are the days where you can get away with being able to do one thing in this industry. You have to be able to do everything. And we would call ourselves MMJ's, multimedia journalists. You have to be able to shoot produce to write, to do all of the things. And before we got on started recording Samira, we were talking about the things that we didn't learn in journalism school or the things that we remember learning in journalism school. And so I'm curious to hear about how, based on your journalism school educations, what do you think is missing from, or what do you think needs to be added to how we are teaching young people to be journalists? And then the follow up to that is, and do you find yourself still encouraging people to pursue journalism? Given the industry that we are in?

Samira Nasr (22:24):

I think we need journalists now more than ever. So yes, I'm encouraging anyone to pursue that. I think now more than ever, we need people to be reporting on what's happening in our world because there's so much noise and so much distraction. And so people who are committed to their ideals, truth, that really matters now more than ever. But again, I don't work at a news organization, so it, it's hard to take literal those principles very literally. Of course, we do long some great features that Leah Chernikoff who's our executive editor spearheads. And I really believe in those. And like Lindsay said, it's like fact checkers and lawyers and all these people that get involved in that. And those stories are important, but we approach everything very much to the lens of fashion, of luxury fashion.

Noor Tagouri (23:24):

But personally, what do you think we need to be talking more about within teaching young storytellers and young girls?

Samira Nasr (23:35):

Go out and live? I think there's this thing, I remember one of my teachers said, the best thing you could do is go work for a small town newspaper. Absolutely. I still believe that. I still believe that. I think there's something in living and where you're learning and observing and living life and then figuring out who you want to be and what stories matter to you. And starting with those and to smart at a start, excuse me, at a a small town paper. I mean hopefully they still exist. I think it's supporting essential. Yeah, it's really, really essential.

Noor Tagouri (24:16):

I always find myself, when young journalists ask me for advice and their intention is always, I move to New York or I want to move to whatever one of the top 10 markets. I'm like, no. If you have the opportunity to report in your town

Samira Nasr (24:27):

Yup

Noor Tagouri (24:29):

Build

(24:29):

Rapport and this with your community members,

(24:31):

You can tell phenomenal stories there. You're able to get out of your town telling amazing local stories, which local news to me is where my heart is at. I look so much same. Then you're going to be able to find the local and the global wherever you go. Cause then you'll know the importance of having a relationship with your deli guy or having a relationship with local city council member having a relationship with the local teacher. 

But Lindsay, what about you? How are you feeling about the state of journalism education and just encouraging people? And I know that it's so important to be encouraging. We need journalists now more than ever. But also the reality of it is, especially in this business, I always tell people, don't go into journalism for the money. There's no money in this

Lindsay Peoples (25:14):

Definitely not.

Noor Tagouri (25:15):

And also, and job security now because people are, so many people are now full-time freelancers because they've felt the burn of these mass layoffs in our industry. And so it's just people are really struggling to hold on to want, still wanting to be a journalist because it's not entirely a rewarding job. So do you find yourself ever feeling guilty with when people are coming to you and want to pursue this, but how hard it is for it to become sustainable?

Lindsay Peoples (25:49):

I mean, I think I am incredibly transparent about my journey and how hard it's been. And that's why I say it because I think that people don't understand. They think that we're looking at a rack of pretty clothes all day and I'm like, that doesn't happen to me. And so I do. And because I didn't grow up here and coming from the Midwest and trying to find my way, and so I do, that's why I literally shared that because I do think so many young people think just a hop, skip and a jump. And it is not, I mean, think that we're always going to need writers. I don't, and I don't think that that's a bad thing to encourage people to want to be in journalism. But I do think we need more bravery in journalism. I think that a lot of people want to write the same thing over and over again. I mean, the amount we have open an open email where people can pitch the cut and all of the cut editors look at it. So it gets automatically sent to me and the senior editors and a lot of people pitch the same things over and over again.

Noor Tagouri (26:47):

Do you have examples that you think that are at the top of

Lindsay Peoples (26:48):

Really embarrassing things. Things that I just don't want to write about at all right now? The one we were laughing about last week was people kept being like, there's this new cowgirl trend like that everybody is. And it's like, no one cares. I don't care. And we're not writing about this, so please stop sending me this. And it's like, this is the new way that all the girls that girls are dressing and here's an essay on it for 5,000 words, absolutely not going to read it. And I think a lot of times can come from a good place or people just wanting to write something, but it's like you're literally just taking a tweet and trying to make it into an essay, which it is not. And I think also I want, I'm attracted to the stories that require a sense of bravery and just a sense of I'm a little scared to do it.

(27:41):

Not terrified. And I get that's not for everyone that that's my jam. But I think if you're not a little worried about it, it's, I mean, things can be beautiful, things can be nice, all of that. And I think there's space for that. But if you're not a little, is this going to edge a little bit? Then sometimes I feel like it usually doesn't hit for me. Or even if it's just something that we haven't done before. And that makes me a little bit scared of like, well, we haven't done this before. We haven't taken on this kind of project before. We haven't done it this big before. Yeah, that's always something I'm looking for. But I always give young people specifically the same advice, which is that they need to be hungry to do the work. Because I do think with social media, everybody wants the attention.

(28:23):

They want to say in their cover letter to me, 80 people shared this story. And I'm like, congratulations, I'm happy for you, but are you going to go after the work even when you don't feel like it? Are you going to be hungry to do this work unless thirsty for the attention that comes around being a writer or being at a magazine, et cetera. And I think that hunger no one can give you. Yeah, it has to be within you. Nobody wakes me up every day and it's like, okay, you can do this, Lindsay. It's like I have the hunger to do it. And so I do think that's more so what I want young people to understand because if you're in it because you think you're going to get famous or you're going to get TikTok followers, you should probably just do something else.

Samira Nasr (29:10):

I mean, that applies to everything. You shouldn't be doing it if you're just seeking fame.

Noor Tagouri (29:18):

Is that more common than not?

Lindsay Peoples (29:21):

Incredibly common in fashion.

Noor Tagouri (29:23):

Yeah,

Samira Nasr (29:23):

I think in everything right now. Yeah, I think in everything right now. Yeah.

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Noor Tagouri (29:28):

Well, let's talk about fashion. What are you feeling about your places in fashion and in this industry today? Right now? On a personal level?

Samira Nasr (29:44):

Yeah, don't, sorry. I don't think, I don't about that. Again, that's none of my business. I'm here in certain spaces and because I'm in certain spaces, other people who have traditionally been excluded are now in other spaces. And collectively we are filling more seats, occupying more space. It will never go back. What people make of that think of that is none of my business. It's none of my business. I just know that I deserve to be in these spaces and I feel very lucky to be in these spaces. So I still feel privileged to be included and I don't take that privilege lightly. And I always say to my team, I don't know how long we're going to have the keys, so let's go for it and do things that we believe in that matter to us. How people read that again, because if I have to start unpacking what that means to everybody, it's a lot for me to carry. So I just don't do my best in these spaces, try and pull as many people as I can in and what that means for other people. I can't focus on that.

Noor Tagouri (31:23):

Also you both are able to witness fashion from the inside. And so you have been able to track the changes and how the industry is evolving. And so I'd love to just know as a lover of fashion as a storytelling platform, how are you witnessing this specific medium of storytelling show up in the world today as a service?

Lindsay Peoples (32:13):

I think mean for me personally, no matter the job, I think people in trash really didn't know what to do with me. They were like, she's very unapologetically black. She doesn't, she really likes this, but she's very, this is who she is. And Samira and I have always had that in common. We're just like, look, it's who I am. Take it or leave it. It is what it is. And I think when you show up that it can often make people really uncomfortable. And this has been a lesson in my old age now that I have to be

Samira Nasr (33:02):

You're still young. You're still young.

Lindsay Peoples (33:06):

I have to get really comfortable with people being uncomfortable with me and not even that, that I will necessarily care. But I think just letting it sit in me and when you know, just let something bother you a little bit and then a little bit more and a little bit more. And then you just start to realize that it changes maybe your decisions or how you move in the world. And so I do think, especially even in these jobs, a lot of times the industry likes to have things in boxes. Okay, we get this person, this is how they are. We get this publication. Or if you like fashion, then this is the magazine that you read. Instead of understanding that we are nuanced, multifaceted human beings. And if I like fashion, but I also really care about the world. And that's why I, Teen Vogue was such a fun fit for me because it meant so much to me to be at a brand that celebrated a lot of things in a different way and tapped into an audience that I felt was really underappreciated. But I do think it can be confusing for the industry if I'm saying inclusivity is a lens in which I see everything in which we do. I think a lot of times people think that, think of that in boxes of, yes, okay then you're doing everything for black people during February. And then you're doing everything in very siloed ways where I'm just thinking of look like this is all the time.

Samira Nasr (34:29):

But that's why, I mean, it's none of the, your business, you said about your work with intention and you go through your life with intention and clarity. And so how that lands for other people and the expectations that they suddenly think they have for you and how you are, it's none of your business, it's none of your business otherwise, then you're supposed to navigate how other people, what they want you to be doing and what they expect from you.

Noor Tagouri (34:57):

That's also why you are the editor.

Noor Tagouri (34:59):

That's part of the job is being able to, sometimes I wonder if the job of being an editor or curator or the person who's bringing the community story builder in that way is simply to create enough space for you to be clear in what you're seeing and maintain that sense of intention without being swallowed by the noise or other's opinions.

Samira Nasr (35:23):

Well, we also have to continue consider the brands that we work for, I'm the EIC of Harper's Bazaar. So I have to consider that legacy and that tradition and the history of that brand. I think if I were at another brand that it would look different, of course I would bring myself to that in the same way that I bring myself to my current role. But it always has to be from the point of view of what is this brand and you know, can move the needle certainly, and you can shift it, but there's a tradition upon which that I'm building and this brand will hopefully, and I will go on for a hundred more years. And longer than that long, I have the keys for a very short amount of time. So I have to think about the tradition and the history and move within that context. That's a context and a framework that I'm working within. And I have to consider that.

Noor Tagouri (36:15):

Thanks for sharing that. That's very, that felt very, very clear. What is inspiring you both in fashion today? What's giving you hope?

Lindsay Peoples (36:29):

Hope is a big one.

Samira Nasr (36:34):

Oh boy. What's giving me hope? I recently did a panel discussion and I looked it out at all the kids that were in the room that were curious about fashion and were determined to participate in whatever way they could. And that is very hopeful for me. I just think there's always going to be things that are heavy and can bring you down and kind of suck the hope, but I'm going to choose to shift my gaze and find it in the people I know who are curious about this industry want to participate and they will carry it forward.

Noor Tagouri (37:17):

What about you, Lindsay?

Lindsay Peoples (37:19):

I do think a couple days ago I was at a dinner and a woman came up to me and shared her story and just how something that we had been writing on The Cut really touched her. And it's similar how to Samira said of when someone says that they see themselves in the worked. I think that there is really nothing more gratifying. But I think just knowing that we helped someone and met them in a really particular moment in their life when they needed something, gives me a sense of hope of, okay, on the right track we're doing, we're something right. Yeah, because that's hard to come by and I think mean there's so much out there. And I mean, when I open my computer, open up 30 tabs of every website, there's a lot to read out there. And so the fact that people read our magazines that that's a privilege in itself.

Noor Tagouri (38:11):

Yeah. How do you approach your reading for work?

Lindsay Peoples (38:15):

Oh, mine is

(38:17):

There. I don't recommend it. No, I mean, honestly I feel like I read. So I just started reading for fun again, which has been really nice because that was a big shifted from Teen Vogue to this job where it felt like at Teen Vogue we obviously covered a lot of politics, activism, but it was obviously geared towards a younger audience. And so a lot more news and just general news and lifestyle goes into obviously writing at The Cut and new magazine. So when I open my computer, it opens up 30 something tabs of every website just to scan the news of what's going on. And we're obviously just in Slack and everybody's putting stuff that somebody's going to blog, but I'm still coming up with a lot of ideas. That's a big part of my job as well, which it kind of changes for every editor in chief, just depending on the publication.

(39:12):

And so a lot of times a small little story and then I'll think maybe we should do a package around them maybe, which is a series. Should I try to turn that to a cover? It's a whole thing. But I did start reading for fun for myself, which was hard to shift the gear because I feel like I'm just used to, okay, let me read this piece and see if we should have a take or should we skip it? I'm just used to reading to get the information out of it, instead of just pausing, having a cup of tea, reading something that has nothing to do with work. Cause that's also the weird part about these jobs, I don't find, not really, but I don't find TV or movies that enjoyable anymore because we watch so much of it for work because we're like, oh, should we cover that person? Should we put them on a cover? Did we write an essay about this? Everything can be a story. Everything can be a story. That's the problem. So honestly, I have to read stuff that's completely separate of, we don't cover this. This is not anything for work. Cause my brain as intellectual, my brain can't differentiate. Differentiated.

Noor Tagouri (40:16):

Samira, you relate?

Samira Nasr (40:18):

It's really embarrassing actually. It's really sad. My team is, I’ve never been so disengaged from pop culture in my entire life. And it's not because I'm not interested, I'm absolutely interested, but it's just so much to be on top of and to consume. And it's so challenging. And again, reading every site all day and specifically ours and all of the people whose work I admire and news and trying to think of what's happening. And then on top of that, I've got a binge watch and all these things, it's just too much for me. So I've decided I can't do it all. And they're things that I just don't watch, I don't see. I trust that my team will say, we need to be on top of this and then I'll dip my toe in and whatever. But my greatest, when I travel now when I fly, I'm not even watching films on television on the plane.

(41:15):

I'm not watching. I'm literally staring into space because I just want to dream and think about ideas and what we should be doing. And I mean, people on the plane are kind of looking at me. Is she okay? Because I just sit there and I fixate on a spot and I will just sit there and just in my head, that's amazing because I need that time to just not have my, I'll read a little bit and I love reading, but it's like I just need to take a step back and be in my head a little bit. And it's probably because I've always been a dreamer as a kid. I've always been a dreamer. And so if I don't have that time, I'm sort of off my axis. I don't know what I'm doing and then I feel like I'm playing and no, I can't bring intention to anything that I'm doing.

Noor Tagouri (42:10):

I actually started making a habit of that on the plane too, where I turn my phone off completely and I do nothing

(42:16):

And I just sit.

(42:17):

Yeah. And because you're literally in the clouds, the plane is a reminder of how tiny we are, how insignificant we are in that moment at least. And I think that's of such an important practice. And then sometimes your voice, inner voice comes through and it just gives you a question or a word or an idea and you're like, oh, that's next. Okay, thank you. That was what I meant too about creating the space so that you can receive where you move next or what you do next. And it's so proud of and in awe and inspired by you both too, because it's so clear. And I texted this to you the other day, Lindsay, it's so clear that you guys are making the work that you need for yourselves that you want to see for yourselves too. It is in service of your reader and the brand, but it's also, it also is covered in your light.

(43:14):

And that's so important because I think that that's why people are feeling more seen and that's why people are feeling more heard and that's why conversations are happening that are more regular now, but only recently. So I would love to, I'll ask you this final question before a little fill in the blank. We do, and I sincerely ask this because at the beginning of this conversation we talked about, but what do we do? I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Just the state of the world and everything that's going on. And of course you both are in the fashion space. And so I would love to know what is the conversation that we need to be having more of or amplifying more in this moment right now in fashion? And then if that changes outside of fashion as well, I would love to hear it too. 

Samira Nasr (44:10):

I would say meaningful equity.

Noor Tagouri (44:12):

Tell me more.

Samira Nasr (44:14):

I think in fashion, I think true equity for all people. Not just, oh, well, we've hired these three people, so we're done. And not just, it's like business people, creatives. How do we make it feel like even equity for emerging designers to feel like they have a shot now more than ever. It's so challenging wherever you're from to be an independent designer, how do we create more equity for everyone? And the beauty about fashion is that it is a mirror. It reflects what's happening in the world. And we as editors, we are documenting history. So how if we can bring meaningful equity into our little community, our little microcosm, I believe it can spill out into everywhere and it can have a ripple effect. So how can we create meaningful equity for all people? How can we bridge to other communities? How can we make people feel like they can contribute in a meaningful way and not be tokenized?

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Noor Tagouri (45:34):

How do we prevent tokenization in fashion though?

Samira Nasr (45:37):

I struggle with that. I think intention, I think a lot goes back to intention and why you're bringing people on the intention behind it and never thinking that you've accomplished enough. The work can never be done.

Noor Tagouri (45:56):

Thank you for saying that. The work can never be done.

Samira Nasr (45:59):

It's never like, oh, this is what we look, this is great. We're good. It's a constant commitment to inviting people in the most subtlest of ways to the most obvious of ways. Yes. And it can never, I think the minute we feel like, oh, well we did that. Yeah, I think we haven't actually. And I think it's intention and commitment to just forever being doing this work.

Noor Tagouri (46:32):

And I don't think that's a good or a bad thing. I think that that just is. But it's a really important truth to acknowledge out loud because it goes back to you saying, we have the keys for this brief moment. Every single person who has a job, who has a role in this space, has the keys for a very brief moment. What are you going to do with it?

Samira Nasr (46:48):

What are you going to do with it?

Noor Tagouri (46:49):

And it's not meant to finish anything. You're not meant to end anything. You're not meant to. You're just meant to make the impact that you can make and then make sure you're holding the door open for the next

Samira Nasr (46:58):

We're stewards of stewards. Right, exactly.

Noor Tagouri (47:02):

What about you, LP?

Lindsay Peoples (47:06):

I mean, I think that fashion really has changed so much It, it's crazy when I think about it, but I do think we have such a long way to go only because many reasons, but I think one big one is just there isn't an alignment of our values across the board, which I don't think we're all so different and we all come from different places and different people, all of that. But I do think the why of why we're doing this job is so different for so many people, but also why we want to continue doing it. And I often find that the industry feels a little bit not sustainable because you have to work so hard and you have to stay in it for so long. And it can feel like so much pressure of do I stay? How do I get better? How do I make this better?

(48:03):

All of that. Whereas I do think the why, and just in thinking about the inclusion of my values and what I want to bring to the table always really grounds me. And so I do think a lot of times when we talk about making a magazine, we both talk about being intentional a lot. Because I think if I'm saying yes to putting a person on the cover, it's not because I think that the person is, oh, this is just a nice idea. It's because I've really sat and thought about, okay, so why do we want to have this conversation? Why do we need to have it right now? And who's going to shoot them? And why would that person bring this about them to life? And how do we want the viewer to understand that what we're trying to convey in this person? And there's a million different things that go into it.

(48:48):

But I do think that fashion oftentimes can hold true a lot of the values of, well, we've always done it this way. Yeah, we've always right shot with this photographer. We've always worked with these models, we've always done it this way. And I just don't think about ideas or dream about it in that way. A lot of times for me, it'll come to me in dreams, honestly. Or I just will sit and think of if I wanted to make a cover or this moment really different, then what's the opposite way of going about it and what do I feel like people actually haven't done yet? They just brings a different note to it. And so I do think that there's always a struggle with fashion because we like to be progressive, but then we like to be really traditional in a sense. And I always feel that, especially now because when we go to shows in Europe, it's like you realize the same group, the very small group of us now. And I never realized that before I started coming to Europe because you Google the mast heads or that's what I used to do when I was younger and you'd know all these names and then you realize it's a quite small group of us. And so I think that that tension and that alignment of what do we really value? What's really important to us? Is it more important to kind of done, do the same things that we've always done? Or is it more important to actually move forward?

Noor Tagouri (50:19):

Thank you. Thank you so much. So the way that we wrap these conversations is a little fill in the blank. And if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three things. I love how both of your eyes are

Lindsay Peoples (50:35):

If you really knew me, if you

Noor Tagouri (50:36):

Really knew me, you would know.

Lindsay Peoples (50:40):

If you really knew me, you would know that I love to cook. That's an easy one. But it is. It's very serious. I love it. Yes it is. Oh, it's one of the few things I have that I can turn my brain off. So it's like only two things for you. Yeah. What's the other one? Reading. But reading for fun. Yes. Not for work. What

Samira Nasr (51:03):

If you really knew me, you would know that I like to eat. Hint

Noor Tagouri (51:13):

A dinner,

(51:15):

But not so fashion, dinner. Fashion. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Any other, if you really knew me shares?

Samira Nasr (51:23):

If you really knew me, you would know that I do not know how to answer this question. I will leave that to the people who really know me. I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (51:33):

That's an interesting take.

Samira Nasr (51:34):

Yeah.

Lindsay Peoples (51:35):

Samira with a hot take.

Noor Tagouri (51:36):

I know, I know. Okay.

(51:39):

Okay. Thank you both so much.

Samira Nasr (51:41):

I love you. Thank you. I love you. I love you. Thanks for bringing us together and thank you. Thank you.

Lindsay Peoples (51:47):

That's easy.

OUTRO: 

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS SAMIRA NASR AND LINDSAY PEOPLES.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.