(Transcript) Timothy Goodman on His Artistic Process, Being a Recovering Misogynist, Honoring His Loneliness, and the Audacity of Trying

INTRO

Noor Tagouri:

Here's the thing. Timothy and I have already had our interview, but that's because we jumped right into it. And the wild part is that I am sitting down with you literally minutes after I was sitting down with my friend Prabal Gurung, who's a designer, and before I even introduce you, I feel like this is a great way to introduce you, which is that one of New York's finest designers posted a photo of a sanitation truck yesterday that was covered in Timothy's drawings. And he didn't realize that it was Timothy's. He didn't know it was Timothy's. And when he found out, he shared that it was Timothy's. And I was like, this was yesterday. And I was like, wait, I'm literally interviewing you both back to back the next day. Which by the way, just feels like fate and destiny and I - I look forward to you to knowing each other.

But it was funny because before I got to this interview, before I came here, Prabal was like, I was just sitting at Ludlow and I was drinking my coffee and I was reading my book and the truck passed me. And I was like, this is art. This is beauty. It's just seeing it in this. And it was on a sanitation truck and that it made his heart so much fuller. And I was very excited to be like, well, knowing him, I know this means, this is going to mean so much because that's like why you do the work that you do. And when you listen to our interview today, you'll know listeners that this is why this is, you'll know that it's very profound that this happened because that is the essence of Timothy Goodman. And if you don't know Timothy Goodman, he is an award-winning artist, graphic designer, author and public speaker. 

His art and words have populated walls, buildings, packaging, shoes, clothing, books, magazine covers, most recently in Time magazine and galleries all over the world. He's worked with brands like Apple, Nike, Google, Netflix, Tiffany's, Samsung, YSL, Sundance, Nicolo, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and more. And he regularly partners for nonprofits and schools creating art for communities in New York. He is very avid in creating social experiments, including this viral blog and book called 40 Days of Dating. His first solo gallery exhibition is called I'm Too Young to Not Set My Life On Fire. And it was on View in the City in 2021. And in 2022, at the end of the year, he launched his own Nike shoe with N B A basketball star Kevin Durant titled The KD 15 Timothy Goodman. As you can hear, we are in New York City and we love that Nat Sound. Timothy's work often discusses things like mental health, manhood, race, politics, heartbreak and love. And we get into all of in this episode, oh, now it's getting louder. It's fine. It's okay. We can even keep this New York. He teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York City and regularly speaks around the world at different creative conferences. And his graphic memoir, I Always Think It's Forever, was published at the beginning of 2023 by Simon and Schuster. Timothy. It's weird to hear your own bio. I know, I know. But I, it's, it's way

Timothy Goodman:

It’s way too long. I should’ve given you a much shorter version.

Noor Tagouri:

No, I want it. It's good because I feel like it's important for people to know all the ins and outs because your approach and your philosophy to your work is it includes all of these ins and outs. And so the way we typically kick off our conversations is something that I like to call a heart to check in. So I would love to ask you Timothy Goodman, how is your heart doing today?

Timothy Goodman:

It's interesting. I was looking forward to this question, if I'm being completely honest, which I love to do. I just got done with all these book events from my book that came out about a month ago, and it's been a whirlwind of a journey the last two months leading up to it and the launch of it. And I always feel really sad after I finish a big project and I feel lonely. And so in a lot of ways my heart is lonely right now, and I don't think we have this stigma in society about what loneliness is, and we try to put a bandaid over it. But I like to honor that loneliness a lot. I do feel existentially lonely all the time, whether I can, I could be in an amazing relationship I am now. There could be so much going on, but I do have these questions about what it means to be human kind of meaning I have.

And that's always with me. And so my heart feels curious, but it's also lonely and it's a little sad because of the ending of the book of launch and the events. And I think I just want to honor that. And because it lets me oftentimes as a creative person, as an artist, it also that rawness makes me feel closer to something, to what it means to be human to the questions of what it means to be human. And I think as long as I'm sort of okay with being in that realm, I'll sort of be okay.

Noor Tagouri:

First of all, thank you for sharing that because that felt like such an intentional answer and very vulnerable. And I really appreciate you saying that because I also really relate to that feeling, that consistent loneliness that comes with being a seeker and just constantly asking that question of what does it mean to be human? Why are we alive? And also, it's such a testament that we are recording the answer to this question after the interview because you held me accountable and said, you didn't ask me how my heart was. And that is the first time that anybody's ever been like, wait, you didn't do that? And that's what I was looking forward to. But it speaks to you as a person and it speaks to you as an artist because you mean what you say when you say, I want to see people and I want to be seen. And so it's just like, Hey, this is a platform where I can share this and I feel this need to share it, not just to get it off my chest, but because I know by sharing it that in itself as an active service. And so thank you for being of service, and now we get to welcome people into the rest of the conversation, with that note.

Timothy Goodman:

Thanks for having me on this, by the way

Noor Tagouri:

What are you kidding? I was like, this is so cool. Wow. Thank you so much.

Timothy Goodman:

I was actually listening - I hadn't listened to that.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh my gosh. So Mari is actually hosting, she's doing a workshop with another one of my friends. Do you know Ruth Lindsay?

Timothy Goodman:

No.

Noor Tagouri:

Ruth's also really amazing. They're doing a workshop this weekend at this place called Kripalu. And something that I find that I'm Really admiring Mari about these days is that she is like offline. Yes. Actually has done the offline thing. And she always, even when she was online, always felt like, I feel like conflicted about that. About is it to share your work? Is it to share you? Is it to whatever? And then the writing in between. And she's found a way, we got her Christmas card this Christmas and cute. It was so cute. I was like, wait, this is what it means. I feel like to catch up with somebody is like, you let you share a genuine, intimate photo of what's happening in your life and you give actual updates. Because the reality is in on social media too, is it's not like, I don't know about you. But I feel like I've done a really good job of letting people know, letting people feel like they know a lot about me or a lot about my life and stuff. But still being a very private person. And I think I've gotten more and more private actively. I haven't posted online as much and I try to keep it to just my work. But I feel like a lot of times when your work takes so long to produce anyway. Yeah. It's hard when you're to,

Timothy Goodman:

What do you mean? You want to fill in the gaps?

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. But I decided, I would decided in this last big project that I did Rep, I just was like, I'm not going to force it. I'm not going to fill in the gaps. I'm just going to share as I want. And then if my natural instinct is to not share as much, I'm going to observe that and be like, why is that? And honor it. Because it's, it clearly you're on a journey that is trying to keep you more connected up here. And so just see what that's like. Exactly. Without feeling the pressure to have to do it out loud all the time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. How do you feel about that?

Timothy Goodman:

I've gone through many different phases with what it means to be online. I think that for a long time I wanted to share everything all the time.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Do you know why?

Timothy Goodman:

I think it was just a desire to, I really feel like I'm just an expressionist when it comes to my art. So whether that is takes the form of a social experiment or a piece of writing or a mural on a wall, or just sharing how I'm feeling at any given time, I really just feel like I have to get it out. It feels - It just there's - I don't like how it feels inside. And so for a long time, and maybe because of therapy for many years and just getting older and all these things, I feel a little bit more at ease with that now over the last couple years.

Timothy Goodman:

I think for many years I just had to get it out. And I think that was at times messy. And I'm okay with that too, but it was a little messy, maybe a little uncomfortable, a little inappropriate at times. And I'm thankful for it because I learned from it. I grew from it. But now I do feel like a little bit more of a sacredness with my life versus my online

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Of life. So I think it's just a journey that we're all on when it comes to this stuff. What it means to have some sort of an audience but also still retain a sense of your own identity that no one else has to know about, a sense of your own relationships that no one has to know everything about. Yeah, I think I've gotten better at that for sure. But there are times where I just want to wall out and just whatever, and it's just, and share and do this and whatever. And there's times where I want to fall back

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know. It is about trying to honor it. I think you listen to it and honor it  Rather than fight it. 

Noor Tagouri:

One of the things that our mutual friend Mari said, I think on this podcast too that has really stuck with me about sharing is the importance of sharing when things are actually processed. Because sometimes when it's unprocessed it, it's not really productive to anybody because it, it's still, I don't know, I guess in the feelings of it all. And it hasn't been polished. And I don't think that that's always the case that we shouldn't share until things are fully processed. Because there are people I admire right now who are in the thick of recovery, for example, and they're deciding to share it as they go with guidance and still in a very thoughtful way. But I do love be witnessing people in the middle of their journey or in the mess of the journey as well, because it's just a reminder that we all are always, that this is kind of the noon of our life and that's where we kind of exist the most. And if that's the case, then it's comforting to know someone sees us too.

Timothy Goodman:

For sure. For sure. A long time. I used to really, I would write about maybe a breakup or a heartbreak I was going through

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Would be posting it as I was going. And like I said, that was messy. And I think at times, maybe I look back and I'm a little, I cringe a little bit at some of that, but it's what I had to do at the time. And I think the process of writing and making the art helped me process the actual event or the feelings I was kind of going through. And for that, I'm thankful. But it doesn't always have to be posted though.

Noor Tagouri:

And it does. And we love the younger versions of ourselves who felt, but I also will honor that it didn't always have to be posted, but posting didn't mean the same thing as it does today. Yeah. Because I know that, for example, my journey on the internet started really fast and intense as soon as I actively started using it. And there was one post of mine that stated Dr. My Dream at the time that went very, very viral. And that kind of skyrocketed my work into where it is. But I sometimes I'll tell Adam, I don't think that I would feel, I would not feel comfortable posting that today. I did then, because then the landscape and the culture on the internet was a lot more loving, a lot more supportive when something went viral. It was on Good Morning America for days. And we laughed and we rejoiced. And the initial thing that people would feel for the most part was kindness and joy. And I think now because people feel so disconnected from themselves, that ends up being a projection that we see.

Timothy Goodman:

You think people feel more disconnected from themselves now than maybe they did

Noor Tagouri:

Or Absolutely. Online version of themselves. I think them their actual selves, because we invest so much in connecting ourselves to our online selves. So it's highly curated. So it's weird, for example, and I'm sure you've had this experience where sometimes you'll be familiar with somebody's presence online, but then when you meet them in person and how the reaction, it's not even that, how different they are because we're all a little bit different, obviously, because we're more human, we're more are more human selves. But I think what can end up being drawing for me sometimes is that when you realize that they're a lot of work that goes into the online person that you don't really see. So I mean, it's curated and sometimes it's very manufactured and sometimes it's more authentic and it's not like to pass judgment or anything like that, but it's sometimes, anyway, that's why I think that we are more disconnected.

Timothy Goodman:

It stops you in your tracks. My, it's interesting because for the same, for me, my first adventure in what it means to be online was about 10 years ago when I did this project, 40 days of dating that went viral back then. And it's like hundred Internets ago at this point. That was a blog

Noor Tagouri:

That went viral that a hundred Internets ago.

Timothy Goodman:

It doesn't happen anymore in that way, but suddenly that was a project that we were processing in real time. Me and my good friend Jessica Walsh and co-creator of this project, we both came from these opposite relationship problems. At the time, I was the commitment folk. She was the exact opposite. She was always looking for one. We were good friends. We kind of made this pact to date each other for 40 days

Noor Tagouri:

As a social experiment

Timothy Goodman:

As a social experiment with rules. We had to see a couple's therapists together weekly. We had to go on, we had to see each other every day for the 40 days. We had to go on a weekend trip together. We had to fill out this form that we kind of created every single day, which were these eight questions. Did you see Jessica today? How do you feel about things? What do you want to do differently? Blah, blah, blah. And that was then we created this website where she's on the left. I'm on the right each day. And you see how two people experience how they process and experience completely different. And we rolled it out daily. It was this kind of each day for that whole summer, and it went viral. We were on NBC Today Show, and suddenly 500,000 people were reading it each day. And we were meeting with movie stars who wanted to turn it into a movie.

We ended up optioning it to Warner Brothers. And it was so wild because suddenly it was just like, I was maybe a couple years out of school at that point, and I just started working for myself. I was doing illustrations and commercial artwork and stuff, but to be just thrown into it. And it was so, I saw all of it happening around me, the conversation. But there was a lot of support about it. And there was a lot of, but to be, it really broke down a wall that maybe for a while wasn't healthy for me, but I just was like, oh, I can do this. I can write about anything I want. I can talk about any trauma that I've ever experienced. I can talk about. In a lot of ways, it gave me liberation to go deeper in my art because of that experience that maybe for a while wasn't healthy, but also ultimately I think, I don't know, it really kind of shaped and molded who I was as an artist. And

Noor Tagouri:

It's also really cool that relationships are such a core part of your work, your relationship with yourself or platonic relationships or romantic relationships. And this experiment seems to be the way that you really put that to the test. And I'm curious what role, the platonic ness of it all Yeah. Actually played in whether either clearing up the lenses or fogging them up a little bit as You mean that project back then? Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean, at the time I was a commitment phobe. I was just couple years out of school. I was living in New York. I just wanted to, was

Noor Tagouri:

Define a commitment boy. Yes, commitment boy, commitment phone, always. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

And I call myself a recovering misogynist.

Noor Tagouri:

Define that in your terms.

Timothy Goodman:

In my terms. It's just about what it means to be socialized in this and conditioned as, I mean, we all are, but as a straight man in this country - everything, if I'm going to be honest about that, I for instance, play into white supremacy as a white person, then how can I not be honest that I'm a misogynist and the intersections of race and gender all play into each other. So I'm something I've always constantly thought about. But I think most men in this country, if they look at themselves in the mirrors, they would have to be honest with themselves about how we play into these kind of things and how, especially with the media we consume so much. All of it is just, and our families and the things we were taught, the postures and behaviors we were taught as boys. Of course, I grew up calling women hoes and bitches. But then I would also love my mom or whatever, because that's what the Tupac album told me. All the rap rappers that I admire when I was a kid. Cause I didn't have a father in the house. And I was always looking for rock stars, rap stars to be my dad. And they all had that one song that was about the girls that were on tour and then the one song about their mom.

Noor Tagouri:

Wow.

Timothy Goodman:

And you start to think about women in those ways. And I think that's why you still have, you see these conversations around sex workers these days where people can't get it wrapped around their head that sex work is real work and these people are humans. And I think all of that is about so much of the stories that were taught as kids through our media consumption.

**AD BREAK**

Noor Tagouri:

So that journey of becoming a recovering misogynist, how did it start and how did you intend for it to start? And then how did you know it really started because the world around you started to change, or the people around you started to react to your journey?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I think first of all, I grew up in an all black neighborhood until I was 12 or 13. And so as a little white kid thinking about most white kids aren't thinking about race in these ways, but was, it was all around weed. I would be with my family all the time. And then suddenly all the friends in my neighborhood were black. And the conversations we were having were so much different. And I remember when we was seven, we were playing outside in this kid goes, he goes, you're a black kid or something like that. And I remember thinking, I never really thought about that I was anything, I never really thought about color or race at that point, but he was already, and that was so fascinating for me. And it really stuck with me. And of course I would see how the police would come to my neighborhood and harass the older kids or break up.

We were playing football games on the streets and they would come and break it up. And there was all, and I would see drug deals all happening around me all the time. I would see all this stuff, but it wasn't until so, and I read the autobiography of Malcolm X when I was 16, white kids aren't doing this kind of stuff. So suddenly years later, when I start to think about gender and I start to think about what kind of a mission or there's so many blind spots that maybe people understand about race, but they don't understand about gender. But if you start to think about the intersections of it all, if I can, like I said earlier, if I can admit and understand my role as a white person in the society and how I play into white supremacy, then why wouldn't I understand how the same way with gender and how I played into misogyny all the time. So it started to make, and you read books, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and you see the glaring misogyny that's happening while he understands. But he talks so profoundly about race. So then you start to connect these things for me at least, and have conversations with women, with non-binary folks, with all kinds of different people. And you start to, it just became very clear to me

Noor Tagouri:

 Was there a first conversation that really propelled you onto this journey?

Timothy Goodman:

I mean, I think when I read Bell Hooks,

Timothy Goodman:

All About Love, I'm constantly rereading for many years. I think when I read that, maybe it was 10 years ago, the first time I read it, that really started to, and a friend gave me that. But that project, 40 days, days of dating, that really I had to think about because I did get criticism because of

Noor Tagouri:

What kind of criticism?

Timothy Goodman:

Well just that, oh, I was a little bit of a fuckboy and a player and some people just didn't my attitude about things. And I was playing a role and I really had to question myself. And I think because it was so public back then, it made me, when I dig deeper and you kind of come to a crosswords, where am I going to be this guy or who

Noor Tagouri:

You actively thought about that then?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, because it hurt. Because anytime someone's criticizing you publicly, it hurts. So you can choose to get defensive or you can be thankful for the call out and tuck your tail between your legs and do some work. And that's what I was able to do, I think. And I'm always, I'm constantly trying to do that. It never ends. So I recovering because we still play it. I still feel like I listen to a Drake song and I can't,

Noor Tagouri:

You whatever. It's

Timothy Goodman:

All kind of have to recover constantly from it

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. I mean, let me do tap check. Okay, cool. So take me on the path of you beginning to ask those questions to it sometimes manifesting into your illustrations.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, I mean, I don't see it. I think all art is political, whether you know it or not. If you're not constantly thinking about, so I get to exist without being politicized, right? Because I'm just a white straight man in this society. So if I just think that if I'm not constantly thinking about what role I'm playing, and that could be in any, so that could be in the kind of space I'm taking up in any given area, or it could be about what kind of jobs I'm taking, what kind of brand I'm upholding. If I'm also not thinking about I'm writing something on a wall and this could be misinterpreted the wrong way, or this could offend someone who's marginalized. If I'm not actively thinking about that, then what am I doing as an artist? We're in the business of consequence. We're making work that is seen by the public, that is consumed by the public.

Whether that's a product, whether that's a piece of public art or installation, whether it's a book you're reading, any of these things I'm making, so what's my role in all this? You can't tell me, oh no, I just make things and it's fine. No, this stuff matters. And so it's constantly kind of playing. And so sometimes that will come out in very blatant ways, whether I'm writing something on the side of the wall that's talking about racism or gender or something. Or it could just comes out in the way I'm conducting business. And thinking about that,

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me more about that.

Timothy Goodman:

What conducting?

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Is it when you're asking yourself, what is the role that I'm playing in this problem? Which is one of my favorite consistent questions to be asking, especially right now. How are you able to ask that from the inside out? Because you engage in both your personal art and also commercial art, but the lines are blurred in that you have a very intimate, distinct style. So what are the sub-questions in that?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean, I think first and foremost, we all have to start wherever we are. And sometimes for a person, I always say, you don't have to make work in order to do the work. Cause I think a lot of artists or designers or whatever, they think they have to make a project that's about this stuff or whatever. But it's also just talk to your racist cousin. You know what I mean?

Noor Tagouri:

But that's harder sometimes. It really is.

Timothy Goodman:

Of course, of course. It's extremely hard. And I'm

Noor Tagouri:

Not saying that it's better or worse, it's just that it's almost, and I feel this myself sometimes. It's almost easier to make the really risky work and put it out there, then face a loved one and be like, we need to have this talk. Because it's like you don't know which way the conversation is going to go. And if the conversation goes one way, how does your relationship come back from that? Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

And I don't know, for me, I'm willing to risk that relationship

Noor Tagouri:

Every time.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah. I mean, listen, I think there can be a certain level of respect and tact

Noor Tagouri:

Of course

Timothy Goodman:

These conversations, of course. And if someone's going to walk away from you because of that, well, maybe they shouldn't be in your life many

Noor Tagouri:

Anyway. Well

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know.

Noor Tagouri:

Something I've been thinking about too about that in that actual regard of you're willing to potentially sacrifice a relationship is it's less about trying to change the way people think because we can't control people. We can't change people. But it's letting yourself be known in your truest form and in your truest integrity and knowing that you're willing to risk a relationship because you've, you've worked so hard to become, be in that place where you don't feel like you have to, or you're not willing to appease another person who may be saying things or doing things that are harmful.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And it's, I think everyone has to make their own kind of calls on that. So I've never pass judgment or it's a very hard thing to do. But it's also you we've talked about before, my brother, I love him to death. He's like a Bill Maher Democrat. Talk to those people. Yeah, because there's a lot of common ground of course. And I think those kind of relationships can help, can be steered in certain ways. Not that you're trying to manipulate someone, of course, but it is important to, I think, have those lively discussions with people who see things differently in those ways. But also, years ago, I started in 2018 because I get asked to speak a lot at conference design and ad and art conferences all over the world. And I started really, every time I was getting asked to speak or do a workshop or whatever, I said, I wouldn't agree to do it unless they showed me who was speaking that they were making sure to have people of color, to have black people, to have people from the L G B T Q community on these, because you find yourself speaking at these conferences and it's the same old fucking dusty white guys speaking.

And I get it, A lot of these places they have to fill seats and get people and they put whatever big name that people know, but there's so much more that they could be doing and do, you should be sharing these people's stories and sharing their work. And so I've started putting my foot down. I wouldn't agree to be a part of these things unless they were actively making it inclusive, you know, can call that whatever, inclusive rider or whatever. So it was very important for me to do these things. And I bought out many times because they couldn't commit. And so you do have to, I think I feel a responsibility as someone who has an audience in my little world, my community, to put my foot down and put your money where it's at times. And that's also been about various campaigns I've been a part of.

You know, have to. Because even if you come at it with good attention, and then suddenly you find yourself on the other end and you're like, wow, they picked five white people and now here I'm looking like an idiot. And then someone's calling me out because I didn't activ and I didn't even mean anything about it, but because I wasn't actively pushing. So I think this stuff has to start from the curators and start from the inside out and push onto these kind of people who are creating these kind of spaces. You have to push on them more.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah, I mean it, it's also that once you do that, even if you have to bow out this time you're putting, you're planting a seed for the next time and opening doors, you don't even know what the ripple effects of that are. But people don't forget that kind of request. And we also make that effort as well. And it's just like you're holding people accountable.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And I also think that, so for a while, I used to, a couple times I remember I posted online, I posted the email I would send to people. Cause I wanted to really inspire other guys

Noor Tagouri:

Oh yeah, that's a great way to share that,

Timothy Goodman:

To think about this stuff. And I think a lot of times people don't know exactly how to do it or whatever. And so just listen. And I also posted a couple times where it worked. I mean it worked many times when I would post how it would work and the emails and stuff. So it was just like, I want people to more people who look like me to be thinking about this stuff when they're saying yes

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Kind of deciding on what to do. Cause it's a massive problem. Of course. And it's also just so boring.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah, I was just going to say also too, yes, the big names, the people want to put people in seats or whatever, but it's also, it always ends up being a better series of stories because the stories are always more powerful when you're tapping into people who have had to sit with their stories and who who've had to sit with the question of who are you over and over and over again. I always think about that. I know that my approach to storytelling and journalism and asking questions is what it is because I have had to really consider who am I and what is my point of view in this world and what are my stories in this world and what are the questions that I'm asking? And the question I would always ask before a story is, and how is the way that I'm telling the story or sharing the story, going to impact the communities or the people I'm talking about or trying to be of service to, because that's the only way that you'll actually be a fair and objective storyteller.

Once you yourself know what your point of view is in the world and why you see it that way. And when you haven't had to interrogate that everybody is welcome to, and everybody has the ability to interrogate their own stories. But typically when you are a part of you're the non-dominant community or identity or whatever you want to call it, you're not having to think about it as much. Exactly. But I think that ask, prompting people with those questions and that responsibility is a great way to have people interrogate their own approach to their work and their own approach, approach to how they show up in the world. Interrogate is such a good word. I use that word a lot lately. Yeah, because it's also in the essence of the word itself are it, it's more of a feeling, it's more of a digging and excavating than it is a holding a spotlight onto you and demanding something.

You're so good at this. I'm just so be here with you.

Noor Tagouri:

Thank you.

Timothy Goodman:

Your work is so important in the world. You do the real work.

**AD BREAK**

Noor Tagouri:

Well, no, I mean, you're also doing very important work and I really appreciate how honest you're being and how open you're being because that's a thing is, I don't know, as you know that I've kind of recently started painting and really realizing what the power of putting something onto a canvas and not just the actual art itself that ends up being there, but the action of moving your body in a way where you're tapping into flow and you're kind of having downloads to process the world that we're living in it. It's like being an artist or however you want to define that word. And I'm using it right now. I'm the most universal sense of the word, where everyone can be an artist and we need people to approach life as artists. It really makes all of our work feel really important because the more personalized I believe it is, the more you're willing to put yourself into your work and to let us know you. The more expansive you create a space for people to know themselves and for people to be like, wait, I can do that too. Or I can share this too. And I think when it comes to books specifically, which you just published your first a memoir. Yeah. You've published books, graphic memoir. You've published books before. ”I always think it's forever”. And it is. So I feel like I'm reading your blue bubbles, your text messages, your personal, I put it all on the table. You really put it out all on the table. And I think a lot about how do people make the decision to do that? Because oftentimes when you are telling your toothiest truth, not the only character in the story, and so you're also sharing a lot about other people, and when we speak about the work that we do has consequences even especially that has consequence. So I want to know, what was your process in approaching telling your story through this medium, but also telling this story in such an intimate way?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, it's a really good question. Firstly, what you were saying before, I just want to touch on, I think that always sharing one's personal story through art is a form of activism always, because it really allows us to connect to other lonely souls in the world. And that's really on a human level what I always want to do. And so for me, I don't know at whatever point that I was able to really break down those walls and not, you're always going to care and you're always going to be afraid, and I'm really being fearless or anything, but you're always going to have that. But you really get to a point where you're just, you don't like it. It's not going to prohibit you from doing what you need to do from screaming out from the rooftops, whether it's your heartbreak or whether it's your love or your loneliness.

And so going there is important for me because I know what it's going to do for me and it's going to do for others. I don't feel like a story is worth telling unless you really give it all and go there with it. That's just always about how I, the art that I've admired in my life, the specifically music, that's the biggest music, books, movies, there're always going there and they're always making me feel less lonely. And so it's just, I don't know second nature for me to do that. But of course there's consequences. It's difficult. I mean, listen, any memoir that's ever been written, all the millions of them in the world, there are about other people. And so you have to figure out how to tell your story, your experience, your point of view without, it was very important for me to do that without, in making sure that I'm not, there's no character assassination, especially in the love interest in the story, that there's no outing someone, that no one can figure out who this person is by their name or their career or their horoscope sign, whatever. I really wanted to make sure that, and that was something that was important with my editor as well. But it's my story to tell. Yeah. And what's the cost of not telling that? What am I going to have to pay for that?

Noor Tagouri:

What could the cost be?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean,

Noor Tagouri:

If you didn't get this book out, What would your insides look like today?

Timothy Goodman:

This whole journey for writing this book was so important to me because like I said, I have to get these things in out and if I don't, I feel just, I don't know, I feel like I want to scream. It's really important for me. And so even just the act of trying to get the book made, even if it hadn't gotten made, I would've been cool in a lot of ways. But I had to make the proposal, I had to start with just the audacity of trying. And so that's all that actually mattered. If I didn't get to make the book because no one wanted to make it or I didn't think it was a story worth telling, I could have lived with that. But I tried

Noor Tagouri:

The audacity of trying.

Timothy Goodman:

So that's now there's more consequences, of course. Cause I read about in this book, listen, I've talked about things with my mother and various projects, social experiments, things that I've done over the years. She's n she's never happy about it. She's a very private person. And I've talked a lot about our child, my childhood. And

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me about a conversation that you guys would have about it though. Because a lot of our parents, I feel like most of our parents are pretty private people. And even when I talk about writing a book to my family, they're like, whoa, yeah, what are you trying to say?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, it's a very difficult conversation for me. It's about making her feel seen, of course, understanding her point of view, but also standing my ground. And listen, it goes back to what I was saying earlier, if this person's going to walk away from you because they don't want you to tell your story, but we'll the value of that relationship, then it's very difficult. Thankfully, don't, my mother's not going to risk losing her son over this.

Noor Tagouri:

That's a really interesting thing to say though. Even putting it in that frame

Timothy Goodman:

And listen, if it really came to that and she was like, I'll never talk to you again and be right this book, of course I would come into a real,

Noor Tagouri:

There's another layer of work that goes into that consideration.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, I'm not going to actually do this right now, but I have a good relationship with my mom. So I'm not like the story that she is not, there's nothing I'm talking about that's damaging about her per se. But I talked a lot about my stepfather in the book and about how he abused me and about things, some of the things I went through as a kid and how that further, how that shaped my view of love and relationships and women in my teenage years, in my twenties, going back to that, everything we were talking about before. And so I talk a lot about that. It looks poorly on her. I have that conversation with her. I also feel like I need to do what I need to do, and I'm doing it in a sincere way and that, you know, agree to disagree, and she's still going to support me. Of course, she doesn't love it, but she gets it. And I'm explained to her my point of view about these things. There's also a legal situation about talking about someone who's alive, putting things out there, A person abused me or something like that. And there's conversations with Simon Schuster about if this happens or this happens, what this is how we handle it or whatever. So there's all kinds of actual things like that that I'm sure many people writing memoirs about. Different people have to

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

You know, face those things to have those conversations

Noor Tagouri:

And then it's out.

Timothy Goodman:

The shit gets real. It's real. And I also have to think about how my brothers, who I have strong relationships with, that's their dad, my stepfather. There's a lot of things that can get real and uncomfortable, but I have, it's my story and it's so much a part of the makeup of who I am and it, it's so much a part. You can't tell the stories later on without telling that first.

Noor Tagouri:

So that's really, wow. Do you really feel that?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, Of course. How can I talk about recovering misogynist or that I've been a fuckboy or whatever, or because I was so scared of relationships without talking about abuse I suffered at when I was a kid without talking about how my stepfather and my mother were in this horrible marriage, a relationship that didn't show love, didn't show real communication, didn't show support. So I grew up seeing that as a young boy. And so how of course that's going to affect how I think about relationships going for further in my teenage years, in my twenties, of course it's going to affect me equating love or relationships with some sort of inevitable heartbreak that's going to end in soul sucking divorce or something. Of course, I'm going to think that it's a weakness and I'm going to hide behind my armor as a man and masculinity to say, I'm too good for that, or I'm too busy for that, or whatever. Of course. So I have to tell that. And then it takes a lot of proactivity and a lot of work for many years, a lot of therapy. Shout out to my therapist,

Noor Tagouri:

Why is doing the work and why is going to therapy worth it for you today?

Timothy Goodman:

Because I really just want to see and be seen as much as possible, and I want to affirm my humanity. And I think as the act of creating art is about that in a lot of ways,

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Define the art

Noor Tagouri:

I mean creating art as an affirmation of your humanity. And then you look at your art and it literally feels and looks like a stream of consciousness. So I would love to hear about one, how you found your design and your approach, and then translate this to me in how, translate this to us in a way that explains how you see it. Because the way my eyes are looking at it, and of course whoever the viewer of your art is going to see it differently, but I really want to know in the most intimate sense, what is this language?

Timothy Goodman:

I just want to tell the audience that the way you're looking at all my art right now, so it's so wonderful. Just,

Noor Tagouri:

Well, we did get a really good backdrop, it's backdrop. It is. You beautifully curated some of the most beautiful pieces. And then of course there's a little basketball hoop on the actual frame. When I came here, I asked Tina the first time, I was like, so where can we get one of those? Yeah,

Timothy Goodman:

I know, right? Yeah. I only just got one recently. How it translates, it's really hard. I'm a huge, so I'm Keith Harring is a massive inspiration of mine, Harris from the eighties. And he said something like something after all, I always just figured art was for community. It was to further the conversation and culture. And so I've always just thought about it from a high point of view, but the actual doing of it is just jazz to me. It's freestyle hip hop or something. It's just both the way I write and the way I draw it really just has to come out first with an urgency. You learn over years, you're, you put your 10,000 hours in or whatever. I come from, I went to SBA or New York City, I had a graphic design bfa. I worked in branding early on book track designer. I come from a strong graphic design background. So everything I've learned in as far as typography, I've been formally trained in all these things.

But you've learned the rules to break. So then it really comes out as rhythm as music for me. So you put your hours in, you put your time in, and at some point you get good at just getting it out quickly, even if it's a sketch and you build on those blocks. So I have to just get it out all the time and then I kind shape it from there. So it's like a jazz musician learning is you have a set quarter of changes and then you can go anywhere from there. That's the way I think about it.

Noor Tagouri:

Wait, so okay. I love, thank you so much for sharing all of this. so when you're getting it out, sometimes I feel like that's the hardest part. How do you not wait for the urgency to build up? Wait, here's the difference because I wait for the urgency to build up and then I'm just so sad and so low, and then I'm like creeping and I'm just like, wait, this is very dramatic. It takes a lot of time. So tell me the difference.

Timothy Goodman:

But this is the difference where different people were different artists. You have to tap into your behaviors as a human. For me, I'm a profoundly impatient person, so I let that play out into my art. So that's why I start, I started drawing so fast because I wanted to get done so I could go home. So you let that dictate your style. It always just made sense to me from the

Noor Tagouri:

Get. Oh my gosh. Timothy, this is your professor side coming because you also teach at the school you went to this, is that, okay, great. Continue, please.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, so early on when I did my first mural in 2010, I was still working. I just had to get it out quickly and I just used a paint marker because it just seemed like the quickest tool.

Noor Tagouri:

We love a paint marker.

Timothy Goodman:

And so it wasn't about like, oh, this is going to be the beginning of a career, and I just really love a pain mark. It was just like, oh, I want to get this out quickly and do this fast. What's the quickest way to do this? I don't want to use a brush. I don't want to draw it quick. And so I used a pain marker and it was hard and it was laborsome and it took me three days to do this mural that would now take me six hours or something. And I cried, but I never felt more stimulated physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And I walked away saying, how do I make this? Do I take this feeling and make it happen for the rest of my life? And so we have to latch on to those kind of questions, but I just let my own sensibilities, my impatient drive, my style, and then I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it until it got more refined. And eventually you get to a place where I think you can just work off of it quickly.

Noor Tagouri:

Well, what role does evolution play in that process? So of course as you're evolving, you're becoming more refined, but is that sensibility that you're tapping into something that's innate in you, the most natural, truest part of you, not going to change, but everything around it kind of changes? Or are you, as you're evolving, do you feel like for you, that shows up in your work as well? 

Timothy Goodman:

For sure, because at this point I can sit down and make a 200 page book and takes me a year and I'm constantly kind of editing a refining thing. And so it's not all obviously happening, happening so frantic. But we're all so different. You know, you brought up my lovely, incredible, beautiful girlfriend Tina, who she works in such a wildly different way than me. She needs to come into the art studio and light a candle, then play some music and meditate and smoke a joint and get into this holistic place and then finally start painting. And then maybe she's not feeling it where I just like, and a tornado and I push through, I don't care. I can be having a good day, a bad day or whatever, and I just have to do it.

Noor Tagouri:

And you can tap into that at any point. Is that flow for you or is that work for you? Or what is it?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, of course there's time where it's just work. I do things like we all do things to make a living,

Noor Tagouri:

But you never feel blocked in that approach.

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know. Of course there's times I feel blocked, but it truly is only about feeling burned out, taking on too much. And I don't feel like I'm in a good creative place just because I'm sleeping well and I have a lot of stress. Those are times that I feel blocked.

Noor Tagouri:

It's interesting that you've isolated the block as that too though, because even as I'm thinking about my own blocks, I'm like, oh, that's it. It's not about it being a block. It's about sometimes you're going so hard and then you're a little burnt out and tired and you just can't tap into it. You can't tap because you can't always want to

Timothy Goodman:

Tap into it.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. You're just like

Timothy Goodman:

But I had this teacher when I was in design school, he said something that still resonates me with me today. He said, there's no such thing as a creative block. If you hit a wall, you just turn around and go a different way. And it just always made so much sense to me, and it always just made me think, okay, if yeah, I'm hitting a wall, this is not the right way. What else is there? What are the option? B, C, D E, F? What if I just need to write poetry for two hours

Noor Tagouri:

To get things out?

Timothy Goodman:

What if I just need to journal? What if I just need to draw bunch of shapes or something? I don't know. There's so many different ways for me to express myself that I can just try

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

I'm not worried about what the outcome necessarily is. It's just for me

**AD BREAK**ISY AD

Oh, so you're in the, okay. So then on a really clear, great day at the studio, what is making things look like to you? What's that process?

Timothy Goodman:

I mean, really, it could be so many things. It just depends on, I'm really, I work at with deadlines really well. So it really is about that in so many ways. If I have nothing, no deadlines, and it's an open week, it could just be coming here and working on some canvases that, some ideas that I've been really thinking about. Then I want to get out and see how they look. It could be just sitting down. I really like to just sit down and write it. I'm a big I journal. I write poems.

Noor Tagouri:

And when you're journaling and writing, is your handwriting like your font?

Timothy Goodman:

No. So sorry, when I'm writing, it's just something I just write it on. Notes out. I haven't written in a journal journal

Noor Tagouri:

For oh, like

Timothy Goodman:

12 years.

Noor Tagouri:

Really. Even

Timothy Goodman:

In my book where I have journals,

Noor Tagouri:

It's all notes app,

Timothy Goodman:

The that came from my notes app

Noor Tagouri:

We love our notes app. Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

I have so many tears in my notes.

Noor Tagouri:

It's actually a great journal. Yeah, the notes app. I have a journal folder in my notes app. Can you write? No, but I feel actual pen to paye. I have my journal with me all the time. Actual physical journal. Yeah, this morning I journaled with a Sharpie and I was, yeah, really? It's because I didn't have a pen on me and then I was like, oh, what I am interviewing Timothy today. So I guess this is perfect timing. But you say you should share that with us? No. Oh, definitely not sharing that journal today. I had a lot to get out, but it pen to paper. So have you've heard of morning pages, the artist's way? So that's why I do pen to paper. And so I started doing that. I at the beginning of 2021 or 2022, which I know is dramatically different because whatever, one to two years.

Anyway, I have filled almost 20 journals and I never thought I could, by the way, I was the type of person when I grew up and I was writing in journals, I would burn them because I was afraid someone was going to find them. I would write and then I would tear the pages out and I could never do it. And then I was just kind of like, well, I'm not afraid anybody's going to be going through my journals and until I'm dead, and so let's just see what it feels like. And it's such a clearing practice because there's also this notion of writing in your journal for as if, while thinking about anybody reading it is very freeing. And then also just taking up physical space. My hand, sometimes it'll be two sentences that fit on one page because I write so big because I have something to get out like that.

Yeah, it's so messy and I rarely ever am able to read it afterwards, but it's just the process of actually releasing. But that's also why, I mean, it's not about you should or shouldn't do it. I think that you do do it because you're putting pen to paper, you're putting ink to paper, you're putting Sharpie to canvas. That's all that. But if for the messiness and for the act of actively taking upstairs, and I also am just always trying to do whatever I can to not be on my phone. That's just the phase that I'm in right now. And it's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just what I need for myself is as little phone time, screen time as possible. So really

Timothy Goodman:

I did that all. I did that all through college. I have so many incredible notebooks and sketchbooks.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh, so you've already engaged in that practice?

Timothy Goodman:

Oh yeah, for so many years.

Noor Tagouri:

But a notes app is also amazing. Yeah, I mean, a notes tap is sometimes if I feel like the download is coming too quickly, I do a notes app because I can type on my phone faster than I can write pen to paper.

Timothy Goodman:

All I know is, Adam, you better stay away from those notebooks. No one really knows

Noor Tagouri:

Notebooks. Thank you. I mean, that's the thing. I trust that also, I don't think Adam would want to ever read my journals. He's like, no, I hear your journal downloads before and after and everything in between.

Timothy Goodman:

Do you ever read any of them?

Noor Tagouri:

 I used to. I did while I was working on REP because I would get really, when I have really big breakthroughs in my journal, it actually tends to be in the very beginning of using the journal. And the very end in the middle is just chaos. So I'll go back to the biggest downloads that I've had, which end up being 10 pages towards the end. And it just is so dramatic and whatever. I'm saying that right now, because I didn't archive one of my journals yet because I want to reread the breakthrough that I had because the breakthrough that I had relates to the next investigation that I'm doing. So

Timothy Goodman:

That's incredible. I love reading. Sometimes Tina and I will read it out loud to each other more often. Me I'll just like, I want to read this to you loud and I'll stand up and I'll just read it. But I love the act of just sharing it that way. And so it's

Noor Tagouri:

Poetic too that way too.

Timothy Goodman:

And it's such a quick way to feel humility and I'm kind of always looking for that in some way.

Noor Tagouri:

It's definitely a great way to get humility. Me and Adam have a rule where, unless I really am so insistent on reading him something I wrote, he's the Jerry Seinfeld rule, which is not letting anybody read your writing until at least the next day. Because when you're so into in the emotion and the person's reaction is not what you want, it's really hurtful.So you come in, you journal, and then how do we get from a blank canvas to a, not a very, not blank one?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I have all sorts of ideas that I'm always kind of jotted down. It could be so always like I'm making things or writing things. And then I also just make a list of the things I've made or the things I'm in the process of making or the things I want to make because then it helps me. It helps just my brain. Think about if I have to have my second gallery show probably by the end of the year, so now that the book is kind of been out in the world for the last month and all my events are done now I'm really starting to think, okay, what does this gallery show look like? How is it different from the one I did in 2021? My first one? How is the art different? How is the experience different? What are some I different concepts for the show? What does that entail? Have I made anything that might translate to this? Do I want it to just be writings or drawings or a mix? Or do I want to do color? So I'll start really just thinking about all that stuff. Also, just a nice day could just be catching up on emails. It sounds so pitiful, but it's just like

Noor Tagouri:

It's not a month behind. Yeah. It's like,

Timothy Goodman:

Okay, let me just get to this. Have some

Noor Tagouri:

Tea That clears the space though. It really does it.

Timothy Goodman:

And then you can let 'em sit for another two months after. But

Noor Tagouri:

I'm approaching that mark. 

Timothy Goodman (00:59:15):

It’s so not glamorous at all.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah,

Timothy Goodman:

That makes you feel like, okay.

Noor Tagouri:

What is your relationship with color? Because your art is traditionally white and black. Sharpie paint marker. How do we feel about color these days?

Timothy Goodman:

Well I certainly do color. I just did a mural in the Warby Parker, so that's all blues.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh, cool. Or

Timothy Goodman (00:59:38):

I'll have one accent color on certain things.

Noor Tagouri:

But how do you feel about it?

Timothy Goodman:

I love it and I just want it to be contained.

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me about that.

Timothy Goodman:

Too many colors with my work is already playful in a sense, and it's already lighthearted in some sense, in the way it presents. So you start introducing a lot of colors. It just becomes like a circus. I canand it and so I'll had clients and stuff and push for that. I'm like, no. So the one nice accent color or a monotone of different yellows or different blues, I think those compliment the work really well because it feels still sophisticated in some way, but I just don't, too many colors is too much, but I'm not wearing colors now, but I love wearing colors. I'm always wearing bright stuff. So

Noor Tagouri:

I mean, I love the yellow accent too. I love a white, black and yellow. Okay, great. Amazing.

Timothy Goodman:

I think yellow works so good with my work

Noor Tagouri:

Agreed. Drawings. Yeah. So you mentioned Keith Haring being one of your biggest inspirations, and I wanted to ask you about how you feel about artist comparisons and carrying on the legacy of artists. Because I think that most artists are always thinking about other artists that have come before them, and there is a lot of copying. There is a lot of taking or adding or continuing in so much work. I've been just deeply going down a Basquiat's like, yeah, rabbit hole. And he often did that as well. So I'm curious to you, what is your approach? Yeah. And how do you like to engage in the conversation outside of the artist community as well?

Timothy Goodman:

I think so. Maybe something for you to think about too, but Miles Davis, he said something like, you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself. And it's the same shit with making, you have to make a lot of stuff to make stuff like yourself. So be inspired by whoever you feel connected to make art that looks like theirs, try to mimic their stuff. I think we all do that in the beginning, try to. But then at some point we build on those foundations when we have to make it our own. And so someone like Keith Haring was always a massive inspiration because of his line drawing work, but I worked hard to, he never even worked with lettering or typography or anything in this kind of way. I made hard to make it my own in that sense. And then I do all sorts of things like these kind of big, wonky, better forms and statements that are nothing like the drawing style that I do in that way.

So you have to constantly be making and making and making, I think you get to a point where it really starts to just become inherently yours. And your voice is your sensibilities and your voice comes through. And sometimes that could just be about the content, obviously the style, but you have to be willing to go through that and put in those hours and you finally come out. 

So it's a big thing for me because in my industry you do see a lot of ripping off. You see a lot of co-opting. I just did this Nike shoe that came on two months ago with Kevin Durant, and it was such an incredible experience because I did this basketball court for the kids at PS 315 in Brooklyn for their school in relation in partnership with Kevin Duran's Charity Foundation. And we did this in 2020 where I drew all over this basketball court for this community. That's another thing. It's like when you art should be accessible. And that's the way I think about it. And it's like, you make something for that. Those kids, I walk away, I made this art. Those kids get to, that's their court. You know what I mean? They get to tell people, I have the dopest basketball court you've ever seen. It's their court, it's their community, the community's court. And there's a sense of pride and ownership over the art that has nothing to do with me

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

And I think that's

Noor Tagouri:

Where it's an act of service.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, exactly. So anyways, to come back when Kevin Durant knew shoe was to come out, and Nike came to me to to do the art for the shoe because they were inspired by the basketball court that we did together. And that's such a huge thing because you, in my industry with these massive conglomerates like Nike or whoever, oftentimes they'll co-opt the work. They'll just do it internally. They'll just do some bad poor version of the work that some independent artist has penetrated the zeitgeist with. And oftentimes that what that artist can be black or brown or queer, and these brands are co-opting their work. And so the fact that Kevin fact that Nike was like, let's go directly to the artist and ask him to do this work was rare. And it was incredible. And so, I don't know, I'm kind of going off. I don't remember

Noor Tagouri:

The KD 15 Timothy Goodman.

Timothy Goodman:

That's right. Nike.com.

Noor Tagouri:

It's wild.

Timothy Goodman:

But I don't know, I forgot what your initial question was, but

Noor Tagouri:

Well, I think, no, we were talking about how you felt about artist comparisons and honoring people's legacy. And I felt like that still felt very relevant because it's about people honoring the artists themselves.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And then I've had my work ripped off by massive conglomerates and fashion brands, and it's hurt and it's been hard. And I've tried to fight and you can't do anything because I don't have a million dollars to fight them in court for a year or something. And it's like, you see these companies squash these artists and it's really heartbreaking. But there's a lot to be said. About a couple months ago, I had to do a whole Instagram post and kind of put my flag in the ground about Mr. Doodle. Do you know Mr. Doodle? Yeah. Because all these, suddenly he drew all over his house or whatever, and he got even bigger and more famous. And all these people were writing on some of my posts saying that I was, I'm a rip. I was ripping him off and that I had been copying him and all these things. And it was just so, and I was so dumbfounded because I started this, I did my first mural when he was in high school. You know what I mean? My sharp people came out in 2015 while he was a senior in college.

I haven't even know who this guy was until a couple years ago. So the fact that people are so you have to, and it sucks, but I have to make a post and put my flag in the ground and be like, here's my work. Here's what I've been doing. I've been doing this since 2011, since I started working. And both our styles have become more of refined, but I didn't even know what this guy was. You know what I mean? So just because this guy has more followers than me now, or he is more famous than me now, doesn't mean anything. And in terms of the kind of work I'm doing or that I came first, yeah, I don't say he's ripping me off or anything, I'm just saying. 

But also we should all be bowing on to the grandfather, Keith Haring, who started this initial style. And also, my work is wildly different than his. My work is all editorial in the sense he draws characters. I'm drawing about every place to go in New York or in Paris or whatever. And it's full of lettering and type. It's so much, it's so different. But I guess to folks, they just see the black line drawings and they just think, oh, it's like, but would you think that way, if you heard Naz and Jay-Z, would you think they're ripping each other off? Or you, because they're both from New York and or have you heard any two classic rock bands or whatever?

Noor Tagouri:

But this is the whole, oh, we're all coming from genres. Yeah. I mean it's also the circle back to this, the online in real life and how it comes with the territory now. But you have found a way to translate your work into books, into shoes, into packaging, into murals. And once it's released, it kind of has a life of its own. And it doesn't really entirely always belong to you. But at the end of the day, you somehow you're able to still fully express yourself while putting out work that is still of service to others. And your word of the year is service. Service. We talked about that earlier this year. And I'd love to know what your relationship with that word is right now and what question you are asking yourself this year because of it.

Timothy Goodman:

Well, it's interesting because this year started, my book was published at the end of January, so I kind of hit the ground running

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

It was very intense. And it might not have been the way I wanted to start the year. Cause I would like to kind of glide into the year without so much kind of a responsibility. And so I'm finally taking a breath now, so I'm very happy to be talking to you because I feel like, ah, this kind of stuff is behind me a little bit and I'm in a good space. Not that I wasn't in a good space there. I was just a very kind of hectic space. And so I'm not quite sure what my question is right now. I do feel that I want to think about, just think the relationship that I'm having with everyone around me at all times and that I'm kind of honoring those relationships and that I'm honoring my existence. And whether that is feeling my feet on the ground or taking a deep breath in the midst of it all, or looking at someone's the side of their face and just seeing who they are. Those moments, those little moments right now feel so precious to me, so sacred. And so I'm just really trying to consume that a sponge as much as possible. Yeah. And I think that is about service in so many ways because in order to serve, you have to be in a good holistic space. You have to be serving yourself

Noor Tagouri:

You have to be a service to yourself first.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And to serve others, I think that you have to see them. And what does it mean to see someone, what does it mean to affirm their existence as much as your own? So

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to wrap with this thing that we do called If you really Knew Me. So it's just a statement. If you really knew me, you would know. And you can just give us a few, however many come out really. And you don't have to think too much about them at all.

Timothy Goodman:

If you really knew me, you would know that I love chickpea cookies. If you really knew me, you would know that I fucking love New York City. Yes. Everything I do is to honor New York in so many ways. If you really knew me, you would know that, oh, there's a good one here somewhere. Let it come to me. Let it come to me. You would know that I love talking to taxi drivers so much. If you really knew me, you would know that I'm tall and sitting in economy on the airplane is very difficult.

Noor Tagouri:

That's a good one.

Timothy Goodman:

If you really knew me, you would know that. I love this show called Felicity so much. You can catch it on Hulu right now. Don't sleep on it. Give it the first two episodes are slow. Just give it.

It's incredible.

She's one of the youngest people to ever wear a golden Globe for her acting in it. I think she might be the youngest person. I'm like, huge fan.

Noor Tagouri:

Love that.

Timothy Goodman:

Should I just keep going?

Noor Tagouri:

You can give us, let's get one more closing poetic. It's like this, I actually engage when I do my talks, we do an, if you really knew me segment and I have everybody anonymously do it and then perform it as a poem. Oh, that's incredible. And it's really, yeah, because you can, it's just downloads. So give us our, your final, if you really knew me to put us,

Timothy Goodman:

Not to go back to the airplane thing, but if you really knew me, you would know that I can't stand when people put their window, their windows down. How can you not look outside the magic of flying? I don't know.

Noor Tagouri:

I think that's perfect.

Noor Tagouri:

That's beautiful. I am with you on that one. Yeah, I really am. Thank you so much, Timothy. Thank you so much. This is awesome.

Timothy Goodman:

We're here.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER TIMOTHY GOODMAN, MAKE SURE YOU GRAB A COPY OF HIS GRAPHIC MEMOIR: I ALWAYS THINK IT’S FOREVER.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.