(Transcript) Seth Godin on Creating Significance, Indoctrination and Fear, Finding Leadership Opportunities, and Why He Won't Write a Memoir

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

Okay. All right.

Seth Godin (00:00:02):

We have speed. You know why they say that?

Noor Tagouri (00:00:04):

I know that. I know when it's said, but why do they say that?

Seth Godin (00:00:08):

Because in the old days, a piece of tape was moving through the machine and you had to wait for it to speed up because if you started too soon, the first couple seconds. So speed means it's turning.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:20):

Wait, so why do we still say it?

Seth Godin (00:00:22):

The same reason we say MOS when we're shooting video without sound because that's German for meets alt sound and that's because those are the pioneers of recording.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:33):

But isn't it interesting that we say things that we don't actually know why?

Seth Godin (00:00:39):

Dialing a phone? Yeah, I get it

Noor Tagouri (00:00:41):

Dialing.

Adam Khafif (00:00:42):

What was your newsletter the other day? Was standing and smiling for a photo.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:46):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, we loved that one. That was really funny. Alright Seth. Wow, this is very exciting. We've actually been talking about how we wanted this conversation to happen for a while and I feel like on the heels of Song of Significance it feels like divine timing, perfect timing And this is the first podcast interview that I've ever invited Adam onto as well. So welcome Adam.

Seth Godin (00:01:12):

He is the key to me saying yes. You brought Adam as bait.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:14):

Yes, that's true. I did do that. I did. And the reason I wanted Adam here and to be in conversation Us three together is because this is how our conversations tend to happen and they are some of my favorite ones and I think that it could be really be of service for us to share one of them out loud. And we're so excited to be here and talk to you and to celebrate you.

Seth Godin (00:01:36):

I'm so glad you came. We're missing Helene cause she's at work, but she'll be here in spirit.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:41):

It's okay. We're going to stop By The Way bakery after this just to make sure we have a little taste. All right. So the way we kick off is the simple question. How is your heart doing today?

Seth Godin (00:01:54):

My heart feels taken care of. It is vibrating in sync with a lot of people around me. And even if it wasn't the second that you folks walked in the door, it got back. So all is good.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:10):

All is good. I'm so grateful. So on our way here, we were listening to the Akimbo podcast episode that you recently published called Origin Stories. And I laughed because, so this is how I'm going to tell you how Adam and I listened to Akimbo. We will go through the feed and we'll read the very clever and fun and enticing title names and then anyone that makes our heart jump or piques our interest or makes our eyebrow raises or whatever it is. So we pick it based on how we're feeling that day. And today, when I picked Origin stories, I laughed because after I finished reading a Song of Significance, when you sent us the draft, I felt so overwhelmed with this is the closest thing that I've read to of your writing that's been published that feels like you are actually wearing your heart on your sleeve. If I were to someone, what is Seth Godin as a person, it would be like it's this book. And yet somehow even within that book, you don't even share the origin story of how it came to be. And I have to ask one, why don't we hear more of those personal origin stories when you share so many others of phenomenal people around the world, but you are also one of them. And two, if you're comfortable, could you share the origin story of this book?

Seth Godin (00:03:44):

Well, thank you for teeing up so many important things that I want to talk about. Ursula Burns used to be the CEO of Xerox and she was the first black woman to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And when she was interviewed, people would go on and on about her talent and her insight and her journey. And she said, the reason you're doing that is because if I'm not super special, you have a lot of explaining to do because only a super, super special black woman could possibly end up in my shoes. She said, I'm not super special, I just showed up. And for me, I acknowledge the revealing nature of so much social media that this is my experience, this is who I am, I'm being transparent. The problem with that is it lets other people off the hook because if you grew up living outside in a tent in Utica, New York, well then I couldn't possibly achieve what you did because I didn't have that or if I had your benefits.

(00:04:54):

So what I've tried to discipline myself to do with the work is the work to say, let me shine a light for you on what is possible. If you could see it this way, regardless of the fact that I won the parent lottery or didn't. And so the purpose of the Origin Story podcast that you listen to, which I recorded a long time ago, is to point out that we are constantly telling ourselves our origin story. Spider-Man is always bringing up that radioactive spider thing. Superman can't get over the fact that Krypton is not around anymore. So if your origin story is serving you, if you say, well, I'm the kind of person that never backs down from a generous challenge, keep going. But if your origin story is well, I need to keep reiterating how bitter I am, then it might not be making your day better.

(00:05:48):

So I wanted to just help people see their origin story. So in the case of the origin of this book, yeah, there's more of the person I seek to be personally in this book than in many of my other books that on a good day I try to be the person who wrote this book. I don't think that authenticity is a useful thing in social media because no one's authentic. Everyone is constantly putting on a shelf from the minute they get out of bed and put on their clothes. If they're a guy, if they shaved, well what? What's authentic that you have a mustache? You don't have a mustache. That's a choice. So I don't think people want you to be authentic. I think they want you to be consistent. They want Chuck Norris to be Chuck Norris, not whoever he feels like being today.

(00:06:40):

So in the case of this book, what I've been watching for many years and which was highlighted for me by the Carbon Almanac and which recent events in which billionaires are humiliating their employees in firing them in public and acting in ridiculous ways, is that industrialism the system that made us all rich has really run its course. And we have been indoctrinated, not just people who are from North America, but people all around the world have been indoctrinated from a young age to ask, will this be on the test? How do I get picked? How do I please the boss? Yeah, what's the minimum amount of work I can do to get away with today? Because they're going to steal everything they can from me. And so we end up building a culture that supports industry as opposed to saying we need industry to support culture. And now that so many of us have faced mortality during the pandemic, someone we know got sick or passed away, people are looking and saying, is this the whole point? Is this all there? Is that we should burn as much oil as we can and then I'll die in a cataclysm? And what I wanted to take one last chance to do is say to people, we can sing a different song, a song of meaning and connection and humanity, but only if we talk about it. So that was a rant, but you set me up. So thanks

Noor Tagouri (00:08:03):

No, there's a rant. It's exactly what we need to be talking about. We need to hear. And I appreciate you bringing up the authenticity point because you were the first person who shared that perspective with me on authenticity. That really challenged my own origin story because I feel like even as someone who started their career at 15 and authentic was always the word that was being used to describe me. And until now I still get asked about authenticity and do you think authenticity is still is important to storytelling? And I realized that most people have different definitions of the word authentic. I mean when you're talking about none of us are authentic, the moment we get up and we're always in this state of performance, it actually brings me to think of, and I understand the importance of consistency and knowing that your teammate is going to show up and they're going to do the work even if they're in a bad mood or even if they're having whatever day they're keeping the promises that they're making.

(00:09:08):

And also, I remember when I was younger and I was speaking on authenticity, I used to say something about how you can only really be authentic to yourself, but even that is a choice. Even being authentic to yourself is something like you have to be willing to ask yourself, who am I? And sometimes that is even more terrifying because then you really can't get away from, we can perform to ourselves all we want, but there are signals in our body that our body sends us to remind us, no, this isn't true. This doesn't feel true. And so what is your relationship with authenticity to one's self and engaging in asking that question and how does that contribute to how someone yourself included can find meaning in the work that you do?

Seth Godin (00:10:02):

So there's this expression, no place I'd rather be, but if we break it into pieces, wherever you are is where you want to be unless you're in a prison camp or unless you're an abused spouse. And so you're there maybe under stress, maybe with tension because there's something you need out of it. You made a promise, you made a commitment, you need to get paid. You said you would, even though you don't want to be there, but you still want to be there because you're showed up. And if you spend enough days in a row in places where you're thinking to yourself, there's another place I'd rather be, yeah, that stress is going to wear you out. And so when we think about what's the best job you ever had, or what's a good relationship at some level beyond the short term joy of what I want as a toddler this minute ice cream, please. We need to build a life where there's no place we'd rather be than what we're doing right now. So I can just say, there's no place. This has been on my calendar for weeks and there's no place I'd rather be right now than talking to the two of you.

Noor Tagouri (00:11:20):

Thank you. Likewise. So does that mean you're being authentic to yourself today?

Seth Godin (00:11:25):

It means that if I had grown up in a different century or a different country, I'd be a different self. But I decided that I was going to be the kind of teacher that I am and publish the kind of work I do a long time ago. The implications of that change, what I see as important, what I think of as meaning, what I think of as authentic.

Noor Tagouri (00:11:50):

So what's your definition of it then?

Seth Godin (00:11:53):

Well, what I have, when you asked me about the voice in the book, I think a lot about what would Seth Goden the author of the Song of Significance say right now and do right now? Because when I am consistent with that, I feel like I'm a better version of me and I actually have a better day.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:13):

So consistency is still showing up as more important in this scenario with yourself too because, and the aspect of writing also plays a really big role because you are essentially not only writing for whoever your audience is and to be of service to other people, but it's also to be of service to yourself to remind yourself this is the best version that I can be.

Seth Godin (00:12:35):

Oh yeah. I mean, so Victor Frankel wrote something that was really profound. He said, just imagine that this is the second time through the life you're living, not the first, and you get the next five minutes over again.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:52):

Well,

Seth Godin (00:12:53):

How would you like to spend them? The next time someone yells at you in a parking lot? It's a really useful lesson.

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Are you comfortable sharing the actual origin story of Song of Significance, or is that something you're?

Seth Godin (00:13:40):

Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. So I don't write books because I have to write books.

Noor Tagouri (00:13:47):

Yes, tell us about

Seth Godin (00:13:48):

I can reach more people with a blog post by a factor of 10 in one day than spending a year of my life writing a book. So I only write books. This is the last six books I've written. I only write books if I have no choice. If there is an idea

Noor Tagouri (00:14:04):

That's perfect, it's fine

Seth Godin (00:14:04):

Okay. If there's an idea that arises that will not let me go, that can only be served by a book. And so I had no book in mind. The Carbon Almanac wasn't a book I wrote. I coordinated it and I was totally fine saying we're okay. I don't need to write another book. And I needed for family reasons to be on the West Coast. And I got invited just coincidentally by a guy named Dan to help run a climate conference for 30 entrepreneurs who are building regenerative carbon corporations. And so Dan, who's in Australia, was coordinating this thing. And it happened to be a week before the event I needed to be at. So I flew to San Francisco, ran an electric car, drove up north, and I hadn't been in a group like that in years because I haven't flown in a long time.

(00:15:01):

And it was a moving couple of days. And the person who was doing it with me, who I had never met before, taught me about bees. And as soon as he talked to me about Jacqueline Freeman's concept of the song of Increase, I just was totally taken by it. So that night they screwed up my hotel room and I ended up not getting to place. I ended up sleeping till two o'clock in the morning cause I was pretty punch drunk. I downloaded Jacqueline's book and then the next day drove eight and a half hours down to Los Angeles listening to it. And the story of the song of Increase about how bees are organized without an organizer coordinated, without a coordinator building these resilient systems where each bee is the full version of the bee itself really connected with me. I saw a friend and I drove down to San Clemente to see another friend who is going through some stuff and woke up, cause I don't do time zones very well at five o'clock in the morning and went for a swim in the ocean.

(00:16:09):

And while I was swimming, I came as close to drowning as you can. The tide was pulling me faster than a motorboat. It was stunning. And I thought, well, that's the end of that. It's been a good run. I thought about how much I was going to miss my family, but I was like, okay, that's the end of that. And then for whatever reason, I decided I had an important story to tell and found something in me to swim back to shore. I just made it. And the next day I got a note from Dan, the reason he's in Australia, and the reason he wasn't able to make it to the conference is that his 10 year old daughter was born with a birth defect and they had tried to build a life that would support her and she had just passed away. And so for Frankie and for so many people who have not gotten what they needed, I wanted to just show up and say, we need to think about this. We need to think about what are we doing here? Where is our humanity? Not how do we make work soft? How do we just tell people to do whatever you want? But the opposite, how do we make promises and keep them and do work that we're proud of for people who care?

Noor Tagouri (00:17:31):

Thank you so much for sharing that. So honored. Adam, how did you feel the first time you finished reading the book? You had marked it all up.

Adam Khafif (00:17:41):

I did. I did mark it all up. Well, I think I told you the story also. It didn't me like a normal Seth Godin book where I read stories or how you turn case studies into beautiful language. I didn't know what I was taking away from it. And then the next week of life and work unfolded and I just kept hearing leadership opportunities in my head. And I felt like for me, that was one of the big takeaways. I can read it over and over, but I felt like you always kept coming back to opportunities for leadership, which comes back to choice of course. And choosing to lead. And I am still finding that it's unfolding. 

Noor Tagouri (00:18:33):

I feel like it was also that it's like when somebody puts words to the experiences or the inklings that you already have, it doesn't just propel you forward in that direction and affirm that like, oh, this was this inkling, this sound. It was based in something was rooted in something much bigger. It was that it was like, oh, the way that I'm approaching being a leader, which feels really different and is actually in some ways in response to how we've been treated or in response to being in an agency or being signed with an agency in response to working for a big media corporation in response to all of the noise that makes people feel less important, that makes people feel like they're not good enough. That purposely puts people down so that they can literally feel like, well, at least in the room, or at least I'm here, or at least I'm doing the work.

(00:19:29):

And I felt one of the things that we had been talking about was just how that was never enough. And it's not about lack of gratitude in that it wasn't enough. It was that it just never felt human enough and it never felt like it actually honored the very limited time that we have here. And you can see it and you can feel it. And I feel like I felt that a lot post pandemic, I have just a specific memory of the first fashion month right after the pandemic, and I wasn't really certain of if I wanted to attend or anything. And I went just to support a couple of friends and I saw everyone's face and they felt like they were in shock, but refused to acknowledge what had just happened. And so nobody, besides the fact that they, the reaction of, wow, that was wild.

(00:20:22):

Nobody actually went beyond that went deeper. And I remember this shock that we had, which was like, oh, we have to do something about this because we can't just have had this massive, there. There is very few experiences that can be bigger than what we just experienced in our lifetime that would allow us this time because the world was shut down and that we were all in the state of uncertainty and fear. And if that happens, and it's still not enough for us to get out of our heads and be like, Hey, how are, are we doing something that matters? Is this drama? Is this really, is this all necessary? Then maybe the problems always with us. And it w I'm, I'm not saying that it's not, there aren't problems and issues that in the systems of how we work, but if we want to actually do something about it, it has to start with us. And so in reading Song of Significance, I felt like Adam and I were the exact audience that it was written for. It was like, Hey guys, if you're trying to take on this responsibility of being a leader, here are ways that I feel like can help guide you in that. And not only in how you lead, but how you are of service to those who choose to sign up to work with you.

Adam Khafif (00:21:41):

What I can even add to that,

(00:21:45):

Coming back to how it's come, it all comes back to you. And I was listening to a Kimbo this morning and it was about distribution and media distribution and gaining an audience and the numbers. And I was immediately thinking of how I can do that for my own business and just thinking strategically. And when I came away from so of significance, it was almost as if you were saying, you can read all of my past work and strategize, but at the end of the day, it comes down to you and how you said you have one last thing that you wanted to share. It sounds, it feels like that one last at the end of the movie where the person looks and it's like the answer is just you. And then yeah, you can only strategize so much. And then even for the Covid example that you just gave with Fashion Week, we had few examples of how to lead in that moment. And so there was nothing to strategize around or to,

Noor Tagouri (00:22:36):

Maybe it was less, it wasn't even that. It was few examples. It was that there was a lot of space where it was, I think now I don't, I was like, why did I just bring that up? But I realized it's because it was the first time, because then we put that virtual conference on with Philip because it was the first time we were like, oh wait, there's space here. We're seeing directly that nobody actually knows what to do right now. So you get to just choose to do something about it. And we're just going to choose to do what we know would be best of service to,

Adam Khafif (00:23:02):

And you have to acknowledge that there's sometimes nothing to be done externally. You actually, at the end of the day, you can do all these things and it's still, you have to recognize opportunity for leadership, which is a lot harder for me personally than recognizing opportunity for business growth or for anything even in relationship matters. It's more the openness of leadership opportunities.

Seth Godin (00:23:26):

So if we're going to talk about fashion for a minute, and you two know way more than I do,

Noor Tagouri (00:23:30):

I don't know, I'm wearing a chef coat designed by you, Seth. So you tell me

Seth Godin (00:23:34):

Well, the fashion industry, which now has created billionaires, that it is actually more valuable in many ways than any other industry. When you think about Louis Vuitton, people like that as an industry, what it does is it says to its customers, you need to dress like this or you will look stupid. What it says to its employees is you need to follow this person and listen to this magazine or you will look stupid. And what it says to the people who make this stuff is you need to work for a dollar an hour or else you're fired. And so there's an enormous number of cogs in the system and it makes all of them lesser that people might be attracted to it because it feels like a place to speak your authentic truth and to matter. But human nature and culture, the desire to fit in, to not take too much of a risk, pushes every component of it toward this mind numbing industry.

(00:24:43):

And what first struck me about the two of you is that you could do way more of that. And you instead have said, Nope, we want to lead. We don't want to manage. We want to invent and narrate. We don't want to be the victim of the system. But you feel the pressure every day to be cogs in the system, the people who are sponsoring you or listening to you or the Instagram, all of it is, well, this would go better if we did it more like the normal way. And so as human beings, we started down this path because we needed a roof and healthcare and food, but for many people we solved that problem. So now what are we doing? And now what we're doing is playing this weird game on a game, on a game, on a game, all about winning the race to the bottom. And the problem with the race to the bottom is you might win. 

Noor Tagouri (00:26:07):

Okay, I want to sit with that for a bit, but thank you for sharing that, Seth. What's a question that you're asking yourself these days?

Seth Godin (00:26:21):

It has been a long journey to earn the benefit of the doubt from a bunch of people to be able to narrate for them to turn on lights. And I don't want to waste that, and I need to find the place that combines impact and leverage with my ability to make promises and keep them. So because I don't get on planes for work anymore, I'm not doing what I used to do, which is five or 10 speeches a month, somewhere that was very pleasing because it's ridiculously good way to make an income. But it's also, I was busy. No one could say, what are you doing? I could say, well, I was just in this country, in this country. Now I'm intentionally doing less of the busy work around the work and that creates space to do the work. So how do I open the door for say, the 1900 people at the Carbon Almanac or my friends Eva and Alene to build something on their behalf where I can help open doors for them. It doesn't have to be the Seth Show all the time. And so I'm asking myself hard questions about what's the best way for me to spend Monday because I don't get Monday over again. What's the best, where are people enrolled in a journey of working their way forward? Because I'm going to do better work with people who are enrolled than trying to just yell at people on the street corner who don't get it.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:53):

It's funny that you mentioned the Seth show because, and I mentioned this a little bit in the beginning and I noticed how you answer around just speaking directly about you and your experiences, and you still give obviously a very thoughtful answer, but it doesn't feel like the Seth showed to me. I know that it's Seth’s blog and people know who you are and know your name and maybe even Adam had to read your books at Babson for school. But sure. But the words, it's the work and it feels like it's always been the work and the words, and I say this because my approach to storytelling and even the investigations that I do, I do, I very clearly and openly say, Hey, I'm telling the story because I need it. And then there's all, there's like this layer of the personal journey and then there's the layer of the story and the work, and I figure out what that looks like. So it can best be of service to whoever we have in mind. But how is it that all of these years that you've been doing the work that you're doing, and it feels like, I don't want to say that you still get criticism or people who have whatever, it's not that it's not about the noise or the feedback or the non-believers per se

Seth Godin (00:29:18):

But so I've never had my picture on the cover of a fashion magazine, but I think you'll understand what it feels like when someone points out to you that your work with Adam has created a whole new generation of journalists, a whole new generation of people who are speaking up, even if they're not from the traditionally dominant sector of society. And that's only because you showed up. And so it may feel like sometimes you're getting paid or asked to put on the Noor show, but in fact you are building a whole new foundation for people. And that's incredibly generous and really important. And so you, I'm trying to do that with intent and because the world is different than it was five years ago, I have more space to do that. But that is what I'm spending most of my days thinking about. You don't have to spend most of your days thinking about it, it just naturally happens. But I think over time it'll become more clear to you how many people are using your example to remind themselves that they're capable of doing this work.

Noor Tagouri (00:30:38):

Well, thank you for saying that. It's in, it's, it's exactly why I've been reflecting on this more lately for REP. When we decided to do REP, I went against the recommendation of some of the people working on it and decided I didn't want to put my name on the cover and I didn't want to put my photo on the cover even though I knew that would exponentially grow the show. But that wasn't the point. And it's like the people who received REP, and now we have REP club and we have people from around the world who are actually engaging and going on their own rep journeys felt like it was theirs. And so that was the point that I was trying to get to with like you saying the Seth Show. But it always felt like, and it still feels like the work has always been for the people. And so I wonder if it's this conscious awareness that you know of wanting to take a step back because then you see the work flourish and the way that you may be intended for it to, or it feels like it's more potent almost. But have you ever considered sharing more of yourself in the work? Do you ever think that one day you would write a memoir?

Seth Godin (00:31:51):

No.

Noor Tagouri (00:31:53):

And you've consciously made that decision because

Seth Godin (00:31:57):

It's so, it's tempting, but it's a lazy shortcut.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:06):

What do you mean a lazy shortcut though? Because it's just another thing that would be of benefit

Seth Godin (00:32:10):

Yeah, but it's a no. So on the wall behind you, there's a picture of Annie Kenny, and it's one of the biggest photographs in my office. Who was Annie Kenny? Annie Kenny is the reason you were here today. When Annie Kenny was 19 years old, she went to a meeting in England where her member of parliament was speaking, Winston Churchill was there too. He was only 25. And he said, the member of parliament said any questions. And Annie stood up and said, when are women going to get the right to vote? And he said, little woman, please sit down. And she did it three more times and he had her arrested. And while she was in jail, the suffragette movement took off in England and women got the vote as a direct result of people talking about connecting and creating new circles around the little seed that Annie amplified. And that's what heroism looks like. And the problem with someone like me telling their story with lots of little adventures in it is that it's about me and I only want to write about the reader. And that's because me writing about Annie Kenny gives people the fuel to imagine what they could do a hundred years later. Whereas me writing about me limits possibilities. It doesn't open possibilities.

Adam Khafif (00:33:51):

Does it limit or is it just not as impactful?

Seth Godin (00:33:54):

Well, I would spend time talking about and promoting something instead of something else. And so

Noor Tagouri (00:34:03):

It's a testament to how you choose to use your time. Yeah, it's just very simple. I feel like I, I've been thinking about it a lot more deeply and you're just like, yeah, but limited time, remember? And this is how I want to choose to do it. So then what is your own personal relationship with your story? How do you personally engage with your evolution, with how you rethink things with how you're grown? Because I know that that has been such a big part of how you value your time is rethinking things and asking questions over and over again. And then once in a while we get something like Song of Significance that's birthed from all of those experiences. But I would love to know how you do that with yourself.

Seth Godin (00:34:46):

I've only been inside one person's head, so I don't know if other people have the same noise in their head. There's a word that was just invented called Sonder. S O N D E R. Yes. Spell that word. Which is the moment you realize that other people have a noise in their head too. And all you can imagine is their noises like your noise, but of course it can't be. Yeah. So a woman had a tantrum in a parking lot yesterday, called me a bunch of names, and then drove off in a huff and probably ran somebody over who knows in a court of law who was right. I was right. I didn't do anything wrong. This woman had some other noise going on that had nothing to do with me. And in the old days, I wouldn't have realized that I would've just been constantly, what did I do that caused this to happen?

(00:35:36):

Now I'm not in the position of saying, so it's her fault. Instead I'm saying she has a story. I have a story. There are two stories. But when I need to make decisions, and I think that's mostly what I do for a living is make decisions. I think about intentionally what would Seth do? And I've written down enough of my decisions that there's a track record. I just right trained Jet Chat G P T in 9,000 of my posts. So I can ask it what's Seth would do, and it knows because it's talks in my voice and has read all of them. So what else? But what it comes right down to it. This is totally changeable. It's not easy, it's not convenient, it's really difficult. It will upset the people around you, but these are sunk costs. These are a gift from your former self. Your former self thought it was a good idea to be X, Y, or Z. And you're allowed to say to that for myself, no, thank you. I really appreciate you offering me this gift, this law degree, this spiritual practice, this reputation. No thank you. I'd rather not accept that gift from you because it's a gift. And as soon as it stops serving, you should decline it.

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Noor Tagouri (00:37:01):

How do you think, what do you think the biggest way people get in their own way to be able to recognize their own sense of worth and value and know that they are worthy of singing the song of significance?

Seth Godin (00:37:19):

Okay, so there's two parts. The first part is the indoctrination. Yeah. Because if it was invented today, no one would sign up for it if we just launched from scratch, right? Industrialism or Facebook or no one would say, yeah, sign me up. It happened gradually. But the second thing about sonder is when in doubt, look for the fear always. It could be the fear of death. It could be the fear of being left out. It could be the fear of a lack of status. It could be the fear of a lack of sexual connection, always the fear. What's always going to come from somebody who is screaming at a clerk? Well, they fear that they will never be respected again. They fear that their peers will think less than them because they didn't get this ticket that they were sure always, always look for the fear.

(00:38:11):

And because we live in this digital logic-based world, we litigate it. We say, no, no, no. I can show you hjthe facts about why you were wrong, but this person's not arguing about facts. They're arguing about their emotions. If you want to understand why people vote the way they do, look for the fear, look for status, look for affiliation, both of which are driven by fear. And even people who have nothing to fear, who have good health, plenty of money in the bank, people around them who support them, they're still making decisions based on status and affiliation, which are driven by fear.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:50):

What was the fear it, was there a fear that showed up for you repeatedly when you were first starting out, that you faced head on and you're more aware of today?

Seth Godin (00:39:02):

Oh, I was really aware of my fear at the beginning. What was it? But I to didn't answer your previous question, which is, okay, why don't people sign up to lead? Why don't they sign up to do something of significance? Because they're afraid the world will say yes, and then they'll be on the hook. And fish don't like being on the hook. Humans should want to be on the hook. But what we got indoctrinated in from the time we're four years old is you can get in trouble if you make a promise. So better to just lay low. Don't raise your hand. So in my case, before we sat down, I was showing you the stuff I did at the software company. I was going at a very fast pace in 1983. Yeah, I'd been the second person in my business school class. I lucked into a job that didn't look as good as it was when I took it.

(00:39:54):

I'd been offered a summer job at Parker Brothers, which was my dream because I love games and a little tiny software company and everything said I should have taken the Parker Brothers job and for whatever reason didn't, two weeks after the summer started, Parker Brothers laid off 200 people in the division. Every person I would've lasted two weeks, but at this other software company, they gave me all of these opportunities and I ran with them. But I left there to get married in 1986. And there were no companies just like that to work at in New York. I never wanted to be my own boss. I just wanted someone to leave me alone and let me make stuff. Yeah, that's all. Yeah. And so I went to the book business because someone I worked with, the software company said he would help me. He never returned a phone call ever again after I arrived in New York.

(00:40:45):

So he never helped me, but I had already committed here I was. And I sold my first book the first day for $5,000, which I had a split with my co-author. And then I got 800 rejection letters in a row over the course of a year. That meant every day I would open my mailbox. They had mailboxes in those days and there would be five letters. They had stamps in those days. And five times a day I would get a letter that said, we looked at your proposal. We hate it. We hope you die. And this went on and on and on. And that gets right to imposter syndrome. It gets right to feeling like a fraud. And it gets right to, I'm going to have to go get a job at a bank as a teller because it's over. And that fear fueled me for 20 years. And so in, what was it in 2002 when I got invited to speak at Ted, that's not enough to make the fear go away because it'd be, you never know. And so this feeling of inadequacy causes you to sometimes push forward or do projects that ultimately you might not want. I did the book email addresses as the Rich and Famous, which was the first book about email like that. And I listed the email addresses of famous people.

(00:42:09):

It was super clever. It wasn't worth me putting my name and months of my life into writing this book, but someone was going to buy it. And I was a cog in the system. And there are people who have far less than I do who weren't making compromises like that. And so the big wake up call for me was one day saying, yeah, but if you keep making these compromises because you're worried that 20 years ago you were going to go out of business, you're going to spend your whole life doing that. Don't do that anymore. News story

Noor Tagouri (00:42:46):

I think a lot about how we are always in the process. And I think the more that you get used to surrendering in the process, the more you trust that the art will come together when it's meant to that the writing, that the book, that the project, whatever it is, and Song of Significance was written in two weeks.

Seth Godin (00:43:09):

Well, it was written in seven years, but it was typed in two weeks

Noor Tagouri (00:43:14):

Typed in two weeks. But that's what I'm saying, the process took all of this time. But in those seven years and more, you're having all the experiences and you're learning what surrender looks like. You're learning what receiving and creating this space that you need to type out the book looks like. Does that,

Seth Godin (00:43:36):

Yeah. But I think we need to put a very clear marker for people who are listening to this, which is you don't create space by making smaller promises and retreating. You create space by making bigger promises and keeping them. Ooh. So after the email addresses is the rich and famous, I spent five years getting maybe more, getting Stanley Kaplan, the person named Stanley Kaplan to sell me the rights to do Kaplan test prep books. I got them into that business, and

Noor Tagouri (00:44:14):

I used one of those.

Seth Godin (00:44:15):

Exactly.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:16):

Sarah's like, yeah, me too.

Seth Godin (00:44:17):

It was a great deal for them. And it was a very big project. I hired six full-time people to work on it, and it was a lot of work, but they decided they wanted a better deal. And the way that they were going to get a better deal was by cutting me out. And they sent lawyers to every meeting we had with the publisher, and they were undermining all of the work we wanted to do. We were getting very good at dealing with a difficult partner.

(00:44:47):

So I called together the team, and I said, this is a third of our revenue, but we're getting very good at dealing with difficult people. I'd like to just say, you win and give them all the rights and walk away. And to my team's credit, they all backed me, even though it meant we might not be able to employ everybody. And in less than 60 days, we replaced all of that business with even bigger projects because we became the kind of institution that was willing to earn our freedom. So we sold the information, please Business Almanac. And we sold very complicated, difficult books that sold lots and lots of copies because we knew that we could now do something that wasn't a book like the Smiley Dictionary, which I made in a weekend, but was a very complicated, difficult promise to make. So we put ourselves into a different category by making a different promise.

(00:45:44):

And so when I became a professional speaker, if you're don't have anything booked on Tuesday, and someone calls you up and offers you $500 to speak on Tuesday, well you don't have anything else on Tuesday. You should say yes. No, you shouldn't because now you're a $500 speaker. And so you say no when you're ready to have a really expensive keynote speaker. That's me. I bring a different thing to that. Yeah, thank you very much. And so there were a lot of Tuesdays where there was nothing because you're making a different promise to a different audience of people. This is what I do if you want it, but it's tempting in this day and age, and a lot of people we see online are trying to persuade us that if you just get a nice floppy hat and go on Instagram, you can become some sort of magical influencer. That's not the truth. The truth is, if you create value for people at a different level, you'll get compensated at a different level

Noor Tagouri (00:46:37):

Yeah. Yeah. I, and I feel like we've definitely been, it was a risky decision for us to make, to start saying no, even when we needed it. And I remember the first time we did that, do you remember in the Pandemic the first time we did that? And we got an offer for something, and it was pretty good money, and it was the pandemic. And so we had lost all of the speaking gigs. And I was like, no, because if we say yes to this, then it makes me this influencer, whatever that I didn't want to be, and we just need to have a little bit more trust. And we said no to it, and it hurt. And then literally that week, I think we were had a brand come to us and be like, Hey, this pandemic is happening. People are really afraid.

(00:47:28):

We don't know what to do, but we think maybe you guys do. And we were able to helped us stay afloat. And really, I always go back to that now because I've been thinking, I interviewed our friend Bobby Kim or Bobby Hundreds yesterday, and he was talking about, he was using the metaphor of the Coachella lineup bill and how there's the headliner and then the emerging artists or whatever. But how he sees in his own career, sometimes you're the headliner, sometimes you're like, you're the emerging artist, and you just toggle back and forth between them because it's not always fun to be a headliner. You don't want to be singing the same songs over and over and over again on talk shows. Sometimes it's more fun to be in the recording studio and getting creative, but there's this notion that we don't realize that it's about the toggling back and forth.

(00:48:13):

It's not meant to be like you start small and then you get big. And you really helped us so much with that, because I think I say the phrase smallest viable audience once a week to the team. Cause now I know who they are. I know them by name. I've hugged them. You've met them. And I'm like, these are the core people that we serve. They show up every time, and I'm blown away by it. And I'll literally say to Adam, if we can just get by and do this forever, that's the dream. Because I remember you sharing one time where when at, I think at one point had 60 employees, you were like, yeah, nah, this is not it. And said goodbye to that and realized expansion or success doesn't have to mean expansion. Success can just mean using your time exactly how you want.

Seth Godin (00:49:03):

Exactly. Well said.

Noor Tagouri (00:49:05):

Well, it's how you reflect on the advice that you give us. So I just want you to know, Hey, it's working. We share it all the time. We're so grateful for that. What is your relationship with asking questions to yourself?

Seth Godin (00:49:27):

I don't think that's my method.

Noor Tagouri (00:49:29):

Because you write a lot of questions. You share a lot of questions for us to think about

Seth Godin (00:49:33):

Yes, there's more than 300 questions in the book,

(00:49:37):

But I took symbolic logic in college. I think everyone should take symbolic logic. You can take it online. You've heard of that. You can take it online for free. Symbolic logic started with Aristotle has a belly button. Aristotle is a philosopher, therefore all philosophers have belly buttons. Well, clearly that's not true because having a belly button and being a philosopher aren't related, except in Aristotle's case. So if you think about logic as a series of sentences, can you then come to a conclusion? Symbolic logic says, let's boil it down to symbols. Aristotle is the letter A, and right. So we can just say A equals something, blah, blah. And you can write down the symbols, and then you can learn that there is one and only one true thing that can be determined from organizing these symbols. And this is what's missing from politics and rational discussion in so many ways. Because if you understand symbolic logic, right? If you say steel is a metal, all metals, rust, then it has to be true that steel will rust, right? Right. So when I'm trying to make a decision, I begin with the symbolic logic of it.

Noor Tagouri (00:51:05):

I love this. Okay, walk us through

Seth Godin (00:51:07):

Well, someone has done this, someone else has done this, someone else has done this. Much of the time doing this leads to that. So I'll lay something out and decide if that's a good plan or not. And then I will leave myself space. And in that space, which could last years the space, I am probably interrogating parts of my brain, but I don't do it in the form of formal questions. And then one day I feel like I have an insight. So the first time this really worked great for me was when we started one of the very first internet companies in 1990. That's before you were born. And it was taking us a year, nine months to a year to get a big company, to buy an email marketing campaign. That's a lot of sales calls. We couldn't sustain it. So I knew we needed a name for what we were doing, that if we had a name for what we were doing, and I could point symbolically other things that had been embraced by the world that had names, I said, so, oh my goodness, we need to have a name for this.

(00:52:19):

But then I didn't do anything for three days. And then Tuesday, I said, I'm getting in the shower, and when the hot water runs out, there will be a name. I'll stay in the shower as long as I need to until we have a name. And that's where permission marketing came from, which is, I knew what the project was, I just didn't know what the answer to the project was. And that phrase, permission marketing, led to a 30 billion industry. Two words, because that's what MailChimp does. They do permission marketing. What would you have called it if it wasn't called Permission Marketing? And now everyone, oh, I know what that is. Cause I know what marketing is. I know what permission is. It worked. But it can be something super trivial too. What's the best way? Should, should we drive from here to there? Should we take the bus from here to there, giving a speech in Washington dc? Should I take the train? There's a logical way to do the math. Maybe you don't have to wait on that, the answer. So no, I don't ask myself the question, but I try to establish the foundation to make a decision that I don't have words for.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:28):

Why are you laughing?

Adam Khafif (00:53:29):

That was the response to that question in the form of a Seth Godin

Noor Tagouri (00:53:37):

Next class. Do you have any questions? Do you have any thoughts? Do you have any shares?

AD BREAK - AYS REVIEW

Adam Khafif (00:53:43):

Well, out of curiosity, when it were talking about nine, the 1980s, when you wanted people to let you build things and leave you alone, what were you in the eighties? What did you want to build? What were you interested in? 

Seth Godin (00:54:05):

Building games

Adam Khafif (00:54:06):

Okay.

Seth Godin (00:54:07):

I love simple games. I can't play video games. I've made products about video games. They make me dizzy. The prisoner's dilemma, logical games. Games where human beings confront unstable equilibria and each other resonate with me. And I'm good at making those games. And so for me, a packaged book, the kind I used to make was a game. So if I give you the Smiley dictionary, which I wrote before, there were emojis, and you can see, oh, that's how you make a Mickey Mouse. You can now imagine what the next, I just gave you a bunch of tools to have fun. I opened the door for that. I didn't tell you the answer. I just created this environment. Or when I did the Perry Mason computer game, I knew who Perry Mason was. I knew what the music was. I knew who Earl Stanley Gardner was.

(00:55:06):

I had 200 books to choose from. What's the arc to get people to imagine themselves in this world? So that was really fun for me, and I felt like I had a unique competency, and I liked playing with how the symbols all fit together. I was talking to someone who has a nonprofit this morning, and she brought up the fundraising. She said, oh, I hate the fundraiser. And I said, do you think you're unique? Do you think there's anyone in the nonprofit world that likes fundraising, said, I can't wait to go back to raising money. No. That just comes with what you do. Yeah. And what I discovered is it's almost inconceivable that someone will say, go sit in this room and make up games and we'll leave you alone. Go sit in this room and come up with ideas for books, and we will leave you alone. That just doesn't happen. And so there's this other heavy lifting that comes with it as part of the deal. If you want to be in an economy that has some scarcity to it,

Noor Tagouri (00:56:05):

What's your current, favorite game to play?

Seth Godin (00:56:11):

So most of the people in my life don't like traditional games

Noor Tagouri (00:56:20):

Because my next question, not that was be it's game night. What are the games that you're bringing?

Seth Godin (00:56:25):

My friend Peter is one of the most decorated and celebrated game designers of all time. Wow. We went to Peter's house and I said, Hey Peter, you want to play a game? And his wife and my wife both said, no. So there's a game called Word Master Pro. Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:45):

I download that because of you

Seth Godin (00:56:46):

On the iPad. I play it every single day. What I love about Word Master Pro is I get to play it by myself. I'm not playing against some 12 year old remotely, so no one's cheating. And the rules are so perfect. You needed to invent the English language to have Scrabble work. But it does. The English language is exactly perfect. There's just the right number of two letter words. There's just the right feeling you get when you get a K or a U knowing that there aren't that many good things to do with it. Everything about Scrabble makes me happy, and I beat it at the expert level like two thirds of the time, which also makes me happy because if I beat it all of the time, I wouldn't play anymore. If I beat it, none of the time, I wouldn't play anymore. It's just Right. I strongly recommend Word Master Pro. And

Adam Khafif (00:57:38):

That's just Scrabble Mobile.

(00:57:40):

Yeah, basically. That's amazing. Do you journal personally?

Seth Godin (00:57:44):

I blog.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:45):

No, I know that you write every single day and we all get to read it

Seth Godin (00:57:49):

No, I used to. I did Morning Pages because my friend Brian said I had to. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:53):

And

Seth Godin (00:57:53):

After three weeks, there was just so much good stuff coming. I couldn't keep up, so I had to stop.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:01):

So you had to stop and just continue publishing whatever is

Seth Godin (00:58:04):

Yeah. I mean, there was too much for me to keep. I was going to have to hire a team to deal with all the stuff that was coming out of Morning Pages, and that was making me stressed.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:15):

But I think it's perfect for you because it's like, it's funny because now I'm coming full circle with this inner frustration that I had with Seth. Why doesn't Seth share all of these stories of his life to the world? And I'm like, oh, this is how he does it. This is really, actually truly how he does it, because this is how his brain physically works and his heart physically works. And we get it. And we receive it exactly as we're meant to. So I'll stop asking.

Seth Godin (00:58:42):

Well, I'm flattered. Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:47):

So final question and then one more little fill in the blank that we do. The final question is Adam and I's Adam I Is our company, our approach, our life, whatever. It's all it comes down to service and this phrase of at your service. And I think that that's also part of why we were so excited about Song of Significance because it had the bee on it and the Be is very important to us. And just this mindset of service not being something that is ever seen as a deficit, but only as something that's more, it is expansive and light. And I don't know if we ever told you how we named it at your service. But it was when I was working on Sold in America and I was spent four years investigating the sex trade in the US and I was in a very, very dark place and I wasn't doing well.

(00:59:39):

And we went to, I think this might be Sarah's first time hearing. That's funny. We, a teacher had invited me, a spiritual teacher who I had never really had a conversation with, had said, come out to Napa Valley, I host this retreat about the heart and this might be a good place for you to just kind of decompress. So my team was a little freaked out about it and I went because I, I did not really need to work. And it was the first time that I had ever experienced a spiritual community that it was just about service and heart work and just really what does it mean to show up in this world as a human being and lead with love and in service. And there's this one person who was there and he would, if he saw you, maybe if I just swallowed or something and he noticed maybe I be, I was thirsty.

(01:00:37):

He would run and go get a cup of water and he would bring it to you and I'd be like, thank you. And he'd be like, at your service. And he rushed to do this. And it wasn't a part of it was just this person who just rushed to do it. And I remember the first time it happened, I said to Adam, I'm so uncomfortable. Why did he say that? I almost was offended. I was like, I didn't ask you to do that. Why are you, but that was all me. That was all my own projection. That was all my, I don't want anybody to do anything for me. I to, I can figure things out for myself, but he was bringing me the cup of water because it made him happy and that he wanted to be of service. And I realized it was this mindset.

(01:01:19):

And so I took it upon myself as a challenge and Adam and I started trying to say it and get used to the phrase on our tongue. And at the more we would say it, the more we would mean it, the more my entire worldview changed. Where everything was an opportunity to be of service. And it was all an expansion. It was all something that made us feel lighter. It was always something that it wasn't ever a favor. It was this is how we we live. This is how we move. This is it. It just felt so different. And as somebody who loves words and who does work in service, what does the word service mean to you personally? And how do you think people who are running their own businesses, who are responsible for telling stories can rethink this concept of service to better be of service?

Seth Godin (01:02:20):

You know me too. Well, you asked me questions that I'm just going to dive in on.

(01:02:27):

When you set out to start the company with the name, I think what you meant to call it is two be of service, but you ended up calling it at your service and they mean two totally different things working out. Let me tell you why they mean two different things. Okay. And why you have grown into the incredible power of the second one. To be of service is about you. To be of service is about a posture of hospitality at your service is daring the recipient to earn it. To repay it. Whoa. To level up. So when you show up with REP, you're saying, yeah, we bled to make this for you. Now what are you going to do? Because this is at your service. We're not here to entertain you. God, we're here to challenge you to become what you are capable of. And I don't think that's what you started to do, but that is definitely what you have done.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:44):

Thank you for saying that. Thank you. My brain brain's. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:55):

Service to you as a word. Let's play with that.

Seth Godin (01:05:04):

My company is called Do you zoom?

Noor Tagouri (01:05:07):

Do you zoom

Seth Godin (01:05:08):

And so I'm doing something similar, which is, I'm putting it right back on the reader

(01:05:14):

And I'm saying, here's what I got. What do you got? What ruckus are you going to make? And there's a word in Italian called sprezzatura. Sprezzatura is service without drama. It is the [inaudible] liner unlined Italian jacket from Naples. It is the flair and the look and the approach of awareness of the person you're seeking to connect with and offering service in such a way that it doesn't command reciprocity. And ze Toda is the opposite of what happened at a three star Michelin restaurant in France where they're making the big show with the silver Bowls and everything else. It is the care and generosity that comes from showing up with empathy. And so for me, I am pretty vigilant about the manipulation of hustle, which comes from a different version of service, which is unasked for, but demands reciprocation. But I am in awe of sprezzatura to that. When someone is able to do it at that level, not to show off, but because they get it. That feels to me like an essential human connection that we left behind when we left the village. And it's a way of bringing that feeling back.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:00):

Sprezzatura

Seth Godin (01:07:01):

There you go. They named a loaf of bread at Danny Myers Cafe after that word, because I blogged about it.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:09):

No way.

Seth Godin (01:07:10):

So you can go in and ask for some sprezzatura bread and they will happily serve it to you.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:15):

I would love to do that, except my favorite bread is the gluten-free bread that you've made. I was

Seth Godin (01:07:20):

Going to say the gluten-free bread that the, By The way Bkery makes to be clear

Noor Tagouri (01:07:23):

That By The Way bakery makes

Seth Godin (01:07:25):

There's one near you. Go to btw bakery.com.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:29):

Wait, somebody actually, didn't somebody just tell us that they found, by the way, bakery at Whole Foods recently? Yes.

Seth Godin (01:07:35):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:36):

Was it you? OhS, didn't you got it for your mom? My mom got it. Cause she's dairy and gluten free.

Seth Godin (01:07:44):

Perfect. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:45):

That's

Seth Godin (01:07:45):

Amazing. Give her a hug for us.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:46):

Yes. All right. The fill in the blank. If you really knew me, you would know. You can share one, two, or three things. Your favorite thing.

Seth Godin (01:08:01):

Well, it's not, is it my favorite thing? Is that what the question means? I'm questioning the question here.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:05):

No, it's just you can't ask him multiple questions. No, no, no. I'm saying you talking about yourself is your favorite thing. That's why we're doing this. If you really knew me, you would know.

Seth Godin (01:08:19):

Would know that I have extreme but correct views about dark chocolate.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:23):

That's true.

Seth Godin (01:08:25):

That my spiritual home base is in Algonquin Park, Canada, three hours north of Toronto. And that I'm a teacher.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:37):

Thanks for being our friend and our teacher.

Seth Godin (01:08:41):

Love you both.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:41):

Love you so much. Thank you.

Seth Godin (01:03:59):

I couldn't have written this book without the two of you. The example is you've shown the kindness and care you bring to everything you do. The way we, we've engaged about authenticity and consistency and where the world is going, it just lights me up. Thank you both of you.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:20):

We love you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my gosh. I can't, I'm like, I'm going to stay silent after this for the rest of the day and just process