(Transcript) 36. Seun Kuti on his Father Fela’s Legacy, Matriarchy in His Family, What it Means to be a Pan-African Revolutionary, Racism in North Africa, and More.

36. Seun Kuti on his Father Fela’s Legacy, Matriarchy in His Family, What it Means to be a Pan-African Revolutionary, Racism in North Africa, and More.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:19):

3, 2, 1. 

Okay. It's interesting because I've actually been thinking a lot about the words good and bad and how they're very limiting words. They're not words. I try not to use them in general because I feel like what does good mean? What does bad mean? We use towards people a lot

Seun Kuti (00:00:48):

Subjective. Exactly. They're subjective words. And also at the same time, it's like the word sanction.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:54):

Yeah.

Seun Kuti (00:00:56):

It's like the word sanction to me just means everything. If I sanction your action, it means I support your action. If I sanction your action, it means I don't support your action at the same time. That's so good. So good and bad is just like that. Yeah. And it's such an extreme. He's a good person. So then,

Noor Tagouri (00:01:17):

But good to who?

Seun Kuti (00:01:17):

And no. But at the same time, no. If you accept that you're a good person. And so what can you do? What can't you do? He's a bad person. What can he do? What can he do? Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:27):

Yeah. All right. Seun Kuti, welcome. Thank you so much. You are here. We're recording this from the Apollo Theater where you're going to be performing later tonight with your band Egypt 80 and 24 hours here in New York from Lagos.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:51):

We are so excited to be talking to you. I feel like this conversation has been, it has literally been months in the making. We were hoping that it would happen last year. And then we heard you were coming back and we were like, we have to make sure that we do this. So thank you for sitting down with me.

Seun Kuti (00:02:03):

I feel special. I feel chased. Sought after.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:09):

Well we also feel the same. Now we're here and we're having this conversation. So the way we kick off these interviews is a simple question. How is your heart doing today?

Seun Kuti (00:02:20):

Wow. Yeah. The second person to ask me this question.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:23):

No, today?

Seun Kuti (00:02:25):

No. Since I've been in New York. Wow. Yeah. My friend Mikayla said the same thing to me yesterday. How's your and how's your heart this morning? I'm like, well joyous. So I getting there. Well I'm still, I'm in a joyous spirit. My heart is in a good place. Yeah. Joyous, pumping. Yes, yes. Rhythm. My heart is rhythmic. Good rhythm. 

Noor Tagouri (00:02:59):

I mean, a little bit before we started recording, you were talking about how you got to talk to your daughter this morning.

Seun Kuti (00:03:05):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, spoke to her a little bit, but she hasn't replied me. Oh yeah. It's not a full conversation back to that. No, no, no, no, no, no. She has her, we spoke yesterday, but it's also kind of like, it's 5:00 PM so probably she's up to something.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:18):

I would love to know with tonight's show and just where you're at right now and what is your intention? What is the story that you want to present to your audience tonight?

Seun Kuti (00:03:39):

Oh wow. Yeah, that's good. Today's show is actually really special to me. Cause some years ago, I think my dad played here in 1991 or something and the show was when I told him I want to play too. 

Noor: 

How old were you? 

Seun: 

I was like seven or something. So 32 or years ago, eight. And I've been playing in the band. When we go back home, I started playing in the band. So it's good to be back to the place where the decision was made. So today's show is, for me, it's a journey. So I wanted to reflect that kind of journey. So I'm starting off with some real, so I think today's show is going to be a real, and then we just get to a crescendo and end it there, finish on top. I really want it to be also a journey through, since we're in a place that he has held so much of what I'll call African time, black history as they say that African time. To me, I don't see it as black history here. To also be good to take people on that kind of musical journey through the history of Afrobeat music, play, things from really, really the beginning of where it all started from and all the way to what I'm doing right now. Even things I haven't recorded yet. I'm going to play tonight as part of this experience into this whole journey and where we are today, now Africa, now on up until the now. Yeah. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:14):

So a couple of weeks ago I was visiting the new museum and currently all six floors have been taken over by this phenomenal Kenyan artist Wangechi Mutu. And one of the first pieces that I saw on the wall that really took me aback was a collage painting piece of art that she has titled Yo Mama. And it's actually inspired by your beloved grandmother. And I began going down the rabbit hole of just how generationally there's been this deep message of anti-colonialism of African liberation in your family. And I've been thinking about how you've been continuing your father's legacy for all of these years, literally since you were a child. That's a lot of pressure.

Seun Kuti (00:06:09):

Funny enough, I think it's because of the patriarchal nature of the world that people don't also say like, oh my father continued his mother's legacy. Because suddenly Fela's story is like Fela just came out of nowhere as this revolutionary pan-Africanist. Not that he's standing on his mother's shoulders.

Noor Tagouri (00:06:33):

No, of course.

Seun Kuti (00:06:34):

Which is what it is, Fela is Fela because of his mother, because he's Funmilayo's son. If he wasn't Funmilayo's son, there's no way in hell he would be the Fela that we know today. And if Funmilayo herself wasn't her father's daughter, because her lineage has always been very revolutionary because with wealth comes a certain kind of freedom and her family being wealthy, they were able to explore those educational opportunities that many Africans maybe 90% of Africans were locked out of in those days. This is the 19th century I'm talking about here. Up until the 20th century, early 20th century, late 19th century where Africans were not allowed to do anything. We couldn't even walk on the sidewalk if a white man was coming here to step up in. This is not, I'm not talking about Jim Crow South or I'm talking about in Africa under colonialism, we couldn't own homes in our own countries.

(00:07:36):

We couldn't live in the same neighborhood who are sequestered and all of that. They were able to already be free of that. So her mother, my grandmother knew the world and understood the world and knew black people or African people had to change that world and raised all her children to be that way. People know my dad cause he's a famous artist, but also my uncle Dr. Beko Ransome-Kuti was even a greater revolutionary, if I have to say in terms of revolutionary work than my dad, went to jail more than my dad and things like that. But he was a medical doctor. So in my family has always been that fire. Cause we understand the true reality of being African in this world, in a world where the institutions are created specifically to exclude you and how you navigate that. So I think that is what it is.

Noor Tagouri (00:08:36):

So I would love to start there with your grandmother, Funmilayo. And how as a child you received her story. So she was an example from when you were young and when she was talked about or when she led your family. How did you see patriarchy not show up or the example that you were looking for? How did that frame your own worldview?

Seun Kuti (00:09:13):

Well, funny enough, this

(00:09:20):

Patriarchal conversation is kind of new in my family's lingo because my family has been quite matriarchal. Even right now, the head of our family, not the whole family, but our and Fela's children is my eldest sister. She controls the family, holds everything together. And my family has always had a long history of deferring to the women in the family to run everything. So even my dad has been called misogynistic and patriarchal in many of the criticisms that he's been given in the world of intelligence here, as you say, forgetting that we are not Europeans, that my dad married a lot of women, was his culture, not really him. It wasn't a power dynamic, it was a cultural thing. And also to the extent that in our culture as African people, women have always been elevated to positions of leadership and also worship. Cause in African traditional religions, we have the gods and we have the goddesses. So the feminine form has already achieved the divine. This is not Christianity or Islam where all the prophets are male. The son of God, God doesn't have a daughter, God himself is male, no wife.

(00:11:05):

We don't everything. All the forms in Africa already had achieved the divine. And we don't have a Christian myth story that blames the woman for the destruction of our connection with our God and all that. So there's really no, how would I put it? In pre-colonial African society, there's that balance of power in relationships. So my family being quite traditional to a certain extent, we never had that dynamic of power within the family where people were negated or overlooked cause of their sex. I'm telling you really there are some Kuti slash [inaudible] family. We've always been quite balanced and in our relationship and approach. So even without knowing my grandma, I would say I never really felt like, oh I was more special than my sister

(00:12:07):

In any way or shape or form or anything like that. My family, even my dad, my mom, although when my grandma was spoken of, you have to understand people spoke of my grandmom, they spoke of her, God, I didn't meet her. She died in seventy seven, seventy eight. I was born in 83. So I only ever heard stories. So I never met her. I only ever heard stories. And she's not spoken of, it's like, oh, do not take the name of the Lord in vain for Christians so they don't speak to her. Oh you can just, Funmilayo, when she was talked about it was in complete reverence. So for me, I didn't need that though to understand the balance that humanity must have between the sexes and the respect and the difference to the feminine form. Cause he existed all around me. 

Noor Tagouri:

I appreciate you sharing that openly because something that I'm curious to talk to you about is you have very strong feelings and stances and stances towards religion, specifically Islam and Christianity, especially in how they've shown up in African nations. And I would love to just dig a little bit deeper into where that stems from in yourself. What is your personal relationship with religion and spirituality and how it has been weaponized in your life?

Seun Kuti (00:14:03):

Well my family, lucky for me, my dad was not so lucky. My dad grew up in a Christian, very Christian family. And I think that is the biggest evidence from the child of my grandfather was a reverend and none of his children went to church because they could see that he was so fast. The closer you get to the reverend, the more anti-religion you are I guess.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:34):

Can you unpack that though? What do you think that they saw?

Seun Kuti (00:14:37):

My uncle told me, oh my uncle just told me his dad was such a hypocrite. Yeah, yeah. So my dad died when I was 14. So I didn't really, my dad, if you read his book, if there's anything you take out of my father's book, this bitch of a life was that father was an asshole. He did anything you take out of this book. So none of his kids liked him. So I think that's why they didn't really want to be like him. I think he wasn't a guy that was liked and he beat the shit out of him all the time. Because you have to understand also how colonialism distorted the meaning of love between African parents and their children. Tell me more. Many of my friends have so much animosity towards their parents and not because their parents abuse them in this real sense of the word, but that they love them in the wrong way.

(00:15:33):

Which is still abuse. Because when you are colonized and the word of your oppressor becomes, is taught to you as an inalienable truth, an incontestable fact. Things like spare the rod and you spoiled the child, which is nothing but the colonial is trying to use his so-called word of God to justify his brutality towards you. So that is sold to you. Cause Africans were so brutalized in the name of anything but Europeans to maintain colonialism and the civilizing, civilizing mission that they were on couldn't say they were doing all this cause they hated African people, they say they were trying to civilize them. So this was just a way to show love. Cause in the Bible that if you spare the road, you spoiled the child. I have to understand that Africans were children that were being molded into civilized adults. So a lot of whipping was happening. So a lot of Africans internalize this as a way of showing even in their personal relationship with their wives. In fact some African women will say if their husband don't beat them, then they don't think he loves them. You understand?

Noor Tagouri (00:16:47):

I'm following you.

Seun Kuti (00:16:48):

So a lot of African parents in teaching their children, in doing whatever, always beat them. Always in schools. You were beaten. I was beaten in school many times. But I told my dad that my dad wrote a letter and I didn't know I could tell my dad and something could be done. But when I told him he wrote a letter to the school that anybody touch my kid, I'm kicking your ass. So I was exempted on this whipping again. Oh my god, thank you. But all my friends were getting their ass kicked and they'll whip you in the name of teaching you in the name of trying to mold you. Correct you. So we have to understand that a lot of people went through this from our, sorry, lemme just from this experience that we've had and even up until today, it's super prevalent in a lot of relationships.

Noor Tagouri (00:17:38):

I'm noticing this, I'm noticing the power of a father son relationship when it is more healthy. When you're still all these years later thanking your dad for,

Seun Kuti (00:17:50):

Oh no, my dad saved me from so many of Nigeria's toxic social norms. And they used to think he, they used to call him crazy and I grew up now I'm like, man, yeah, it, it's difficult to be a normal person among the crazy group.

AD BREAK - AYS

Noor Tagouri (00:18:09):

When in your life did you realize how radical and different it was that he was protecting you in this way? Or that he was leading in a different way than the norm?

Seun Kuti (00:18:25):

No, I always knew he was leading from a different, I mean it was obvious that my dad was different. Very obvious that Fela was different from, and not just Fela, but the consciousness that ran our family, our community, those people that we knew as well. Cause you also have to understand that when I was growing up, I was kind of, Kalakuta was also kind of isolated from the larger Nigerian society in terms that we are so Fela was so stigmatized by mainstream society. It wasn't as if he was embraced like a national hero when he was alive.

Noor Tagouri (00:19:01):

Isn't that funny how that works?

Seun Kuti (00:19:02):

Yeah. But that's life – growing up as Fela's son. That's why even today I'm skeptical of the love that everybody suddenly says they have for my dad. I'm like, I take it with

Noor Tagouri (00:19:16):

What are you most skeptical of when they say that though? Because you're continuing Fela's movement of for the people and It's still met with resistance

Seun Kuti (00:19:26):

But mostly the mainstream. Especially I'm skeptical of the mainstream in terms of from media to government, like everything mainstream that's trying to embrace Fela. Media, corporations, government, politicians, even religious institutions trying to embrace him. I'm like, we need to really take all this with a pinch of salt and see how they're trying to change the narrative to suit what they want their agenda to be or the new agenda to be. And trying to take the last narrative to buttress that and maybe removing the true essence of what the man was about and just giving people what I call a Fela-lite version. So

Noor Tagouri (00:20:18):

What does that mean, define that for us

Seun Kuti (00:20:20):

Oh, cause

Noor Tagouri (00:20:22):

Who was Fela in that way?

Seun Kuti (00:20:23):

Fela in that way is this fun-loving guy that smoked a lot of weed and fucked a lot of girls and was a rebel. But his rebellion was basically smoking weed and fucking a lot of girls, so young people were like, oh, I'll just smoke a lot of weed, sleep with a bunch of ladies and give a big middle finger to everybody. And in this way, this is what a rebel is today. In the mind of so many young people, they don't understand that no, there's a system that you must key that rebellion against understanding what that system is. And your actions are not just rebelling in a void, which is what is happening. Everybody hates, I'll give you a good, everybody hates the government. Why? Because the government is run by billionaires. But everybody love bitcoins that are also run by billionaires and they believe that Bitcoin is going to set them free.

(00:21:23):

I'm like, how can you trust the Bitcoin if you don't trust the government no more money? Because it's the same billionaires that run both of them in almost sneezes and Bitcoin catches cold, he sneezes, Biden gets a cough. It's the same shit. So young people are not taught to be analytical this way. 

The narrative and the mainstream always wants to sell a simplified form of the narrative that helps you rebel. Rebel without changing anything. And I think Fela has also been put into this, they're trying to put him into this. People can imitate him without changing anything. So that's Fela light. That's what I call the Fela lite version. In a way, you think just because you go around smoking weed, take your shirt off, you know, have some girls around you and you know, give a big fuck you to anybody you like. Yeah, you're changing anything.

(00:22:19):

Nah, you just being disrespectful. We have to understand that it's a context and that's what must not be missing. Fela was not a rebel. He was a Pan-Africanist revolutionary who rebel, rebelled against the system. What they're trying to remove from anybody's narrative is that a revolutionary aspect. They want you to rebel, but they don't want you to be revolutionary because revolutions is not about ideology in action. So they don't want you idealized, they don't want you knowing. They just want you to have the feeling act with your emotion. You know, don't like what is going on. There's injustice. You can feel it. You can feel things are not right. You can feel the negativity, you can feel the toxicity. So they want you to just act off that feeling. They don't want you to understand what that feeling is, study what that feeling is, and truly begin to act to negate that feeling. Not just to experience it, what to truly negate it and remove it from society, which is what Fela is and which is that aspect of Fela that people must not forget as well that this was not in a void. This was against something. Towards something.

Noor Tagouri (00:23:33):

So I interviewed Ilyasah Shabazz last year, the daughter of Malcolm X for a series that I was working on and were. Talking to her about, she also in a way carries on her father's like Carries on her father's legacy by writing books, by teaching, by constantly speaking. But when I was talking to her about what it was like when she was younger, she had mentioned this immense pressure that she had felt to be Malcolm X's daughter. And everybody had image in their head of who he was. And she felt, I mean she is a different person. She has her own identity, her own personality. So she was mentioning how she had kids on campus at school chasing her down, asking her, wanting her to lead the black student association. Him always her on her to be him essentially. And she had to, in her career and until now, figure out who she actually is, what she's choosing to do that because she wants to do for continuing her father's legacy versus what people put on her to do. And I think that in many ways, you know, are literally currently leading the bands that your father had originally started. You are continuing the political movement, the movement for the people that your father started it. Was there a sense of pressure to do that? Or was it from the beginning just something that you knew inside of you was this is what I want to do for me?

Seun Kuti:

when my dad died, I was already 14. I was still young. But I was 14. I was like my mature, I was a teenager, I knew him. We did stuff, we'd gone on tours. I was really close to him. I was already in the band. I was performing with my dad. And at that age he could teach me certain things. Really not, I wouldn't say I understood my dad till he died, even when he was alive, honestly, I'm going to school. My teachers, the educational institution are not validating my dad, the media at home, the news, whatever, they don't validate my dad, the religious, don't validate the things he said. And those are the main things that shape your mind as well.

(00:26:20):

How did that make you feel as a kid? So he just made me feel like, man, this man is just doing his own thing.

(00:26:24):

There's a different world out there that I have to key into and learn. So yeah, my dad was this thing, but I went to school, I got straight As and I was aspiring to be an economist or whatever at that time because my dad also made sure that he didn't make me feel I had to do anything. The fact that I was performing on stage wasn't my dad. Oh you have to be a musician. I went to him, I said, yo, I want to perform. But, cause I was a young dumb kid as well, I saw my dad every night having fun, money, women. I'm like, this is the best job. What he say, this is, listen, I want to do this job. What do I do to do this job? He's like, okay, well we get to Lagos, start practicing with the band. And that's how I started playing. So every show I would open the show for him, I'd go on stage, sing a song or two songs, and my dad didn't even come on stage. So that's how I got my own musical things started. But after I started at eight, I was like 11, 12. I wasn't seeing all this money. All these women weren't there yet. I'm like, what the fuck is this job? I was already looking to quit.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:30):

By the time you were 11

Seun Kuti (00:27:31):

Listen, listen. What's going on here? This man is the only one getting the money and the girls, what's going on? So for me, my relationship with my dad, and I also had an elder brother who was doing music, who was so, I never had the pressure that, oh, I had to replace my dad or I had to be my dad. So maybe cause I'm, I'm not the eldest son. So maybe the pressure on my brother was different. I don't know his own relationship and how his psyche was with that. I'm just saying. So for me, I really never had that pressure. And after my dad died, I just kept on playing with the band as a tribute to my dad as a way to honor my dad. Really.

Noor Tagouri (00:28:14):

Do you remember how you felt then?

Seun Kuti (00:28:16):

Yeah, very bad. No, my dad was the closest person to me alive. And before my dad died, nobody I knew had died in the first 14 years of my existence. I didn't know anybody that had died. Everybody I knew was alive. The first person I knew that died was my dad and he was the closest person I knew. And since my dad died, I've lost my mom. I've lost a sister. Cousins friends, never cried. I only cried when I lost my, I signed an artist, but he was really young. It was so tragic how he died. So when the day we were burying him at the thing, I cried. I was so surprised. I'm like, finally woo, all these deaths. And I finally cry now. Thank you ancestors.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:02):

What do you think was turned off inside of you?

Seun Kuti (00:29:04):

No, nothing just matched that

Noor Tagouri (00:29:07):

Nothing matched the pain to your father.

Seun Kuti (00:29:08):

Yeah, nothing.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:10):

Do you remember the questions that you were asking in your head when you lost him?

Seun Kuti (00:29:14):

No, no, no. Well I remember the question I asked my uncle cause I didn't see my dad for a few months. I just requested him in the hospital till he passed. And I told him as soon as I said that "you guys didn't let me see him." And that just even made it even worse cause I didn't see him for two, three months till he died. So that made it so bad and I was so angry at everybody for that. Yeah. So after my dad died, nothing happened that matched up. My mom died. I was on tour with my mom. When they gave me the news, I hurt. And I was thinking, okay, I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. Nah, okay. And my mom and I, we weren't so close as well. We had a good relationship but weren't so close. Cause I was closer to my dad than I was to my mom. I didn't really have a relationship with her per se. She wasn't my friend. She was my mom. So yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:30:10):

It's so interesting because I find that think it's more rare to see and hear people talk about their dad the way that you're talking about him in having this very healthy, loving, close relationship. I feel like at least right now when I talk to men about their relationship with their fathers, a lot of straining. There's a lot of tension. There's a lot of wanting their validation but never being good enough. And it just feels like I can feel the energy coming off of you, this lightness, this urgency, this notion of it's so important to be doing this. And it feels like the fuel is still from the experience that you did have with your father.

Seun Kuti (00:30:56):

And I think maybe cause I didn't grow, maybe I didn't become a man while he was still alive. So maybe there was no, we didn't have time to clash probably.

Noor Tagouri (00:31:06):

So in your memory of him, he's protected in that way.

Seun Kuti (00:31:09):

So we only had a great relationship as far as father and son could go. And I was two years into my teenage years and my dad also wasn't the kind of person that raised us to believe that his love for us was conditional upon us achieving anything. I think that was also important. Yes, he wanted us to be serious with the things we were doing. But I think cause of the relationship he had with his parents and probably because of the relationship he had with his cause also the way my father had his kids. 

My eldest brother Femi 20 years, he's 20 years older than me. My next brother is 12 years older than me. So there's a huge space between the kids. And I think by the time he had me was older, he had seen the things he had done wrong with his earlier kids or I'm going to have a good relationship with this one. So I think I benefited from not just the timing I was born in his life, but from his own personal experiences with his parents, with his own first kids. And probably him trying extra hard to get it right. I think so. We just had that really cool relationship where his love for me, the validation was there always, regardless of what I did or it didn't matter. What I did was what I did. Our relationship is our relationship.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:45):

So I want to talk about the movement of the people in Pan-Africanism and how you are choosing to use music as a tool to relay the message of the movement.

Seun Kuti (00:32:59):

Well, tonight I'm going to, okay, I'm even playing MOP, one of my father's songs. Part of this story I'm telling tonight. Yeah. So I'm going to play MOP cause music has always been the fuel to the way that we have from my side, I mean for my father's time to push the African liberation struggle forward. Music is the great field that we have in our, and that's our talent. 

But now this is the catch 22. All the children of Africa must submit their talent to the liberation of Africa. Not just the musical children of Africa, but the medical children of Africa, the doctors, the engineering children of Africa, the media, the journalists of Africa, the nurses of Africa, the bureaucrats of Africa. Even the rich people of Africa must also not switch their allegiance to their own continent for once. I think a lot of people cop out and when they expect musicians to save the world, oh this artist is not inspiring this or this person is not making conscious music.

(00:34:17):

It doesn't matter about that. We have enough conscious music in the world already. What we don't have enough of are conscious doctors, conscious lawyers, conscious judges, conscious policemen. Cause I feel that all social sciences and these institutions that interact to actually run human society must be aligned to humanity. 

So definitely music has to be, what we have is the talent that I have. So I must usually to push MOP forward. The story of MOP. Every song I write, I feel is a dedication to the true positive progress. Not this abstract progress that we preach in society that puts everybody under pressure. That even if you sit down in your house and you're not doing something, you feel you're being lazy, you're not being productive, you're not progressing in your life. Not this abstract progress that sucks the happiness out of the life of everybody. Where you wake up in the morning and your future immediately begins to oppress you. You just wake up and you're like, oh my God, what is tomorrow going to be like? Am I working hard? Am I going to be, oh my God, I'm going to be homeless in 10 years if I don't do this. It's crazy. But the true positive progress of humanity is what we most dedicate ourselves to in a certain way. And that for me, I mean there's no separating that from the music. Let me put it that way.

AD BREAK - REP

Noor Tagouri (00:35:58):

Okay. I have a question that I'm a little bit curious about. Maybe even a little nervous to ask, but that's fine because I think it's important to. When thinking about Pan-Africanism, I shared with you that my family is from Libya. I often think about how when people talk about Africa, Northern African countries are kind of separated from that conversation. There's this distinction. It's North Africa.

Seun Kuti (00:36:18):

Yeah. Well we didn't do that separation. North Africans make sure that that distinction is made every time 

Noor Tagouri (00:37:18):

The future of Pan-Africanism. Does it include the entire continent in your vision?

Seun Kuti (00:38:15):

This is a conversation. Let me tell you really that yeah, North Africans should have among themselves. It's not really about us. We, I'm telling you the whole Africa will be jubilated, we are willing to reconnect. But the charge mean, I mean it's not the first time. It's what killed Nasser. Nasser was killed for his Pan-Africanist views by extremist Egyptians who felt it was not Arabic and Islamic enough. So the distinction between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa has never been from sub-Saharan Africa saying, oh, we don't want, no.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:48):

And my asking of this isn't to blame and it's not about where did this start? Who did it begin with? Because when I'm thinking about, and I'm thinking about, okay, well what about the future? What does this mean for future generations? Is there a way that this includes everybody? And the reason I ask this specifically, and I appreciate you bringing up the note about Gadaffi and Libya is because I've always, I, I've engaged in conversations about this and I know that there are a lot of people who are fans of Gaddafi because of that notion. But no, 

Seun Kuti (00:39:18):

It doesn't make my fan, I'm just saying he's what killed him. I'm not a fan of Gaddafi at all.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:21):

Okay. Okay. Thank you for correcting me. I appreciate that. But I'm saying I know people who, when I say know I'm from Libya who share the sentiment that they are fans of him. And it's be because of this. The notion of obviously how he vocalized wanting to unite Africa. And I also think about, which is obviously something very positive and the expense in which the people of Libya paid. 

So my family specifically has had their land taken and their homes taken. People have been killed. My dad witnessed his fellow students and friends being hung in the middle of the school square. And so these are things that people have gone through. And I'm not trying to sit here and let's pick apart these specific experiences. What I'm saying is how do we actually move forward in the conversation around Pan-Africanism and unity when even though the oppression looks a little bit different than typical colonialism, there still is oppression present. How do future generations make sure not to repeat these same states?

Seun Kuti (00:40:32):

For example, we live in the United States here where black people are shot every day on the street like dogs. Okay, what does it change? How many African Americans have upped and left America to be like, oh, my friends who are killed on the streets, six of my friends were doing nothing. I mean, so I'm living this country because we are not safe at the, because the narrative right of the world doesn't suit that totally. Nobody will accept you from America as a political refugee regardless of how much end endangered you are in America. But you know, can come from Nigeria, from Libya based on the internal politics of your country.

(00:41:18):

The issue, as I've said before, is that we going on is we must have the internal politics of our countries mean a lot. The sovereignty of those discussions means a lot. Libyans, Moroccans, I was supposed to go to Morocco last year and I canceled my show. Why? Because on the day I was supposed to play it the same week I was supposed to play in Morocco, over a hundred Africans were killed at the border of Morocco and Spain. The ones that survived, were treated like animals and nobody issued an apology. In fact, the Africans were blamed for being shot to death like dogs the same week I was supposed to perform. And I said that the only way I can perform at that festival was if that festival was dedicated to the lives of those people lost that day. If the “Jazzablanca” Festival couldn't dedicate their festival to the lives of the African people.

(00:42:13):

I mean if Morocco is truly in Africa and a hundred Africans have died needlessly, why is it so difficult to acknowledge that this has happened? Absolutely they refused. What did I receive? No, a few Moroccans were like, yeah, it's good that you didn't come, we support you. But the majority of Moroccos showed me the biggest racism I've seen in my life. My page was full of n***, monkey, whatever. We don't want you in our country. I went to Morocco also before that the driver of the bus that picked me up refused to put on the AC cause we were black in this bus. So as an African, I've been to Algeria, experienced racism, I've been to Morocco, I've experienced racism.

(00:43:01):

A lot of people in my country that have trapped in Libya trying to escape what held there and turn into slaves. So forgive me if I'm telling you for a fact that whatever the situation is between Africans and North Africans is an internal not African discussion. Look at what just happened in Tunisia. So the hostility must be quelled for you. People must have a conversation amongst yourself. What you want to be is what is going to determine the relationship in future. If by the time Sub-Saharan Africa becomes more sovereign, more strong, and the children of that place are more in control of their destiny and the people of North Africa still have this negativity, they will definitely be conflict. Huge conflict. This will be probably the next frontier was that what is going on in Israel and Palestine would be Sub-Saharan Africans fueling internal unrest in North Africa through these indigenous Africans that are there who are already pushed to the back.

(00:44:06):

You know, look at the TV today. You might not even know that there are Egyptians that are black skinned, like dark like me. You never know. There are Algerians that are dark like me. You never, because it's such a racist society. So this is something internal that I don't even want sub-Saharan government. I don't want the EU to be the ones to tell Egyptians to have this conversation and remove racism and anti-blackness from the continent of Africa. It's just like in South Africa, it's the same attitude that the Europeans they have towards the Africans there. For anybody to say what is the future going to be like in South Africa between the black and the whites? It means that person is naive to this person trying to be naive to the internal situation itself. So that's just what it is. Africa is weak. Sub-Saharan Africa is weak politically, economically, there is no repercussion to whatever atrocity you commit against these children.

(00:45:05):

So that's why African people are still shot in Europe and American in the street like dogs. Because no African government is going to start up and say, "you know what? I'm expelling the American right ambassador until they give me an explanation for why you've killed our children that are in your country." Cause if they were killing Chinese people like that, or Indians or Germans or French people that live here that, these governments will say something. Only the African governments would never say nothing about African people anywhere in the world that are being killed. You understand? So when that time comes that Africa is strong enough to ask those questions and you're like, no, we won't have that. So this is what would determine every relationship that Sub-Saharan Africa is going to have with anybody is the way each children are treated in those border.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:51):

How do younger generations make work towards those connections so that they can protect the future? Because it feels like there's, there's this cycle of repeating history over and over and over again. And then all of a sudden the little kids who wanted change or felt hope or whatever it, it's as if they become these same adults that we're seeing today. And there's like the and cycle continues and maybe things are changed here and there, but how do we actually create this space to not only support the younger generations so that they have what they need and the resources they need to make those better connections to aim for that sense of unity and peace and thriving versus what we're doing to them today?

Seun Kuti (00:46:40):

No, but I think a lot of young people on their own are disillusioned with the system of the world. A lot of young people in the world today want a different world, as I said. But I don't think that they understand the work that they have to do to get that. I don't think that they understand, they truly understand the people that are creating these feelings that they have. Because on the one hand, they all hate this feeling. And on the other hand, they embrace the people that create this feeling. Everybody's put on some kind of pedestal, some kind of. So at the same time you have to wonder if young people truly understand what is going on. And it is not their fault. Also it is because we have adult population that refuses to grow up, one, and they are completely betraying the next generation.

(00:47:32):

Why, you know, turn on the news. For example, you're supposed to go to universities, professors, all these people are in the pocket of corporations, you know, go to universities. Professors are not teaching the truths. They're teaching ideologies, they're teaching narratives. So you're not even ideologies narratives because they are after their grants. All our universities all over the world, not even in Europe, all over the world are sponsored by the rich. The rich run, the experiments, the grants are given from the pocket of the rich people who determine what experiments their money will go into and what knowledge will be advanced in society, which now goes on to create the kind of graduates that come out of these schools. Because those professors that do get the most grants are able to push their ideas forward, get further in the academic institutions and have more influence over this thought of the young students coming up.

(00:48:24):

So that's why the psycho perpetuates itself. Not because young people don't know what to do, but because they go into higher institution thinking they want to change the world and meet people who switch what changing the world means to them. So we are constantly being betrayed. So we must also understand that we're on our own in this quest. You understand? To change the world, we cannot believe in any institution. We must do the work of understanding the world. If you say you truly love the world, cause that is love. Love is understanding. So if we love the world, we want a better world. Why are we not spending time understanding the world? Why would we rather waste time on TikTok? We spend more hours looking at our phone than looking at something that can help us change the world. You can't change the world with our phone.

(00:49:11):

And it's obvious that we can change the world without our phones. Because I know for a fact that Nkrumah did not have email, Sankara did not have email, Lumumba did not have a mobile phone. And they had even had flights out of their country, maybe one flight a month to New York. And they made it happen. They organized globally. Crewman (sp?) knew Malcolm X and knew who Martin King was. And Martin Luther King went to Ghana and met with Crewman. These people coordinated themselves and worked hard, understood the world. Wrote theories and books that we still used today that is like they wrote them yesterday. And this is how much this meant. Understood the world back then. Today, as I say, pay lip service. Cause people just want clout. Trust me, people just want clout. Everybody's a social justice warrior because it's cool, I'm telling you. Cause it's cool, you know, do it for likes.

(00:50:09):

And the corporations like that. They want us to rebel, as I said, without a revolution. They want you to be a rebel without a cause. In that way you can be made to suit any narrative. So for us, I think young people need to the work, the immense work in front of us. If we truly want a new world, if we truly want a new world, we have to understand the immense work in front of us. We can't do like the Democrats. I always say many young people are like Democrats. The Democrats of America, they want to change the world, but they support the military industrial complex at the same time. Yeah, they tell you we're the good guys, but they support the banks at the same time. Hey, come on. So they're the good guys, but they support big oil. There's no difference between them and the Republicans except what they say. And this is the way they mold young, positive people. So they're young people that don't want to be positive. So yeah, leave them, let them go and be whatever. But the young ones don't want to be positive. They mold them into being rebels without a cause. 

Noor Tagouri (00:51:22):

Yeah.

Seun Kuti (00:51:23):

Cause.

Noor Tagouri (00:51:24):

So what is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

Seun Kuti (00:51:31):

What does this all mean? Yeah, what does? What is the grand plan? Not that it's a grand plan, but what does this all mean? Because I want to believe that. I don't want to believe that people are so greedy and so visionless that they think they're going to move to Mars after they destroy this planet. Really? That people are being hailed for going to space. We've already gone to space, we've gone to the moon. You understand? And some people are taking billions of money again and cause resources on earth are finite, is not infinite. We've done these things already. Now you're giving people more resources to do the same thing over and over now so that rich people can go to space. What is the benefit for humanity? If you can buy $170 thousand dollars ticket and you fly out of earth and you look at the earth and then you fly back inside, you're creating jobs, they're going to create jobs.

(00:52:33):

I don't get this, but there's no money for education anywhere in this world. There's no money for schools anywhere in this world. There's no money for hospitals. There's no money for social programs. There's no money for anything positive. We watch why the environment, the only one environment we have is completely decimated for nothing. Just so that people can do or buy another boat. And people truly believe in this whole wealth myth. Like this whole creating this, oh, you can't even mention like, oh, we have to put a earnings cap on people. Okay, after you make a billion, okay? Oh then is people are so programmed they don't even understand these numbers. I say to people, why do you need 10 billion dollars? People don't understand what a billion is. They don't understand it. Cause people just say 1 billion. Nobody understands what this is like. What a billion truly means. 

So what do you want that for and for what benefit are we allowing single individuals to accumulate so much of what is for everybody? Because this finite, as I repeat, not infinite, there are finite resources. It's for everybody. It is no matter what anybody tries to say, because of the violence that they've been able to use to dominate this world, everything here is for everybody. At some point. Our resources is not just for the humans, not just for the humans. The plant life, animal life, this is for everybody to share in everything that exists. But a few people are taking over 70% of it. If animals are dying out, rivers are being polluted because those are resources too. And they are wealth. They are extracting everything from every living species. Not only humans. The domination of man is complete, but the domination of nature is going to lead to the extinction of us all. And everybody knows that life doesn't need man to go on. So probably we just want these people to take what is ours out of nature so we can die off with them and they'll tell our story. I don't understand what is going on. What does this all mean? This is my So listen. You ask the question, this is where I am. What does this mean?

Noor Tagouri (00:55:48):

Do you ask that question with the intention of having an answer?

Seun Kuti (00:55:50):

Yes. But this is where I get - we are having this discussion since what does it mean? So I don't know. What are we doing?

Noor Tagouri (00:55:58):

My philosophy is I ask questions and I know I'm not going to get answers. I ask questions to just expand the way that I think and to gain

Seun Kuti (00:56:05):

I'm trying. Cause we need to stop it. This is the problem. What does this mean? Is not so abstract that we think, but what does this mean in terms of we are going to die out at some point.

(00:56:18):

Who is going to stop this train from going off the cliff? My political mentor gave a great analogy of is going on in America, which is kind of the same thing going on globally, that the train is clearly heading off the cliff, but nobody's talking about stopping it, what they're discussing. The Republican says, the Republicans say "only straight white men should drive the train of the cliff." The Democrats are like, "nah, gay men, gay women, black men, black women, everybody should be given a right to drive the cliff, train of the cliff." Nobody's like, "who's going to stop the train? We have to stop the train." Nobody's discussing that this train has to be stopped. That's just the truth. But we are busy fighting about who is going to drive it off the right. And this is the narrative. Everybody's kidding to this narrative. We don't want a driver. We're not talking, "Hey, stop the train." But the few people saying that they're so far in the back, nobody's even listening. Yeah. So what does that mean? What does this mean?

AD BREAK - ISEEYOUFOUNDATION

Noor Tagouri (00:57:36):

Thank you for sharing that. Oof. So I have a couple of questions from this incredible artist her name's Maimouna Youssef, also known as Mumu Fresh. I don't know if you've heard her at work, but I think you'd love it and I would love to pass along some of those questions. So first one is, what do you believe are the positive and negative impacts of Afro-Pop on a global stage and being consumed by and being consumed by a worldwide audience?

Seun Kuti (00:58:10):

The only thing, there's nothing negative about anything, any art. Art is expression. I mean, [inaudible] some certain things as well. So there's an artistic side to that monster, I mean is expression to a certain extent. I don't want to say that it's negative, but what the only thing I have as a critic is that the African elites expending so much on this narrative. Because trust me, don't think that Nigerian music, this pop, cause we dominated, right? We is there because we're so great. It's there because the Nigerian elites spend more on entertainment than they do on education.

(00:59:01):

I'm not joking. for weddings alone in Lagos, 20 million a week on weddings in Lagos. Yeah. And the artists get a huge chunk of this in performance. Everybody has their favorite artist. So in a week they're a million. Some of these big guys when they're home just performing at these weddings alone. So there's the money when they come here, they're employing Beyonce's PR. They're not going to employ some chicken PR from one Connor. Like listen, move. Who is repping Beyonce? Come here. How much is your money? So we played the game at that level. So right, that's good for me. African kids have the right to be kids and express themselves. We have the right to experience everything. I don't want that to be seen as something negative or positive.

(00:59:59):

The only thing I don't like is the fact that they try to act like that is the only thing happening in Africa. That is the only thing I don't like. Cause that is just not true. There's so many African, the African musical and artistic space is so wide and so, how would I put it so colorful. So it's not all of us fantasizing about owning as much Gucci and whatever. Cause this pop music that he say is African for me, kind of is kind of like a white man in African attire. Cause when I see the videos, all the things you see are like LV flags, Gucci symbols and cultures. We know it's all about the symbols that it portrays. And when you watch these videos, it portrays Lamborghini symbols, Ferrari symbols, and these are the symbols that dominate this culture. So is it truly African?

(01:00:54):

Is it just helping European sell more shit to African people? So let's not positive. As I said, it's not negative. There's nothing about it. It is what it is. It's art, it's expression. And African children have the right, young African people have the right to express themselves to this world however they like. It's the African adults that I have a problem with who refuse to grow up. They want to be on TikTok with the kids all day, doing the dance all day. Wow. Why nobody's there to build the continent or develop the continent. We are all on TikTok.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:30):

Well it's funny because another one of Mumu's questions is asking, do you let your children use social media? And if so, do you notice any positive or negative impacts on them as a result?

Seun Kuti (01:01:42):

Yes. No, my daughter is not on a lot of social media yet. She doesn't have any social media accounts. She's too young and the world is too dangerous. Yeah, I don't think, I'm not afraid of that because I think it'll influence her. I'm just scared cause I can't be there on her phone with her all the time. And you don't know who the kind of people that you interact with or whatever. So I say when she grows up and she has some sense to be able to at least sense some danger, she can go on social media. Because I want to believe that if you are a good parent, you are on your job, you still be the greatest influence in the life of your children. It is. Except you want to, how do I put outsource these days? Our parenting is outsourced. You know, want your favorite artist to raise your kids?

(01:02:27):

You want the teachers to raise your kids. You want the government to raise your kids, everybody. But cause you want to be on TikTok, you know, want to go have brunch with your friends. People don't understand that as soon as you have a kid, this is not, kids are different. Because now you is a responsibility towards the quality of humanity. This is your, you're going to live. You are bringing somebody new to us. It is your duty to make sure that you are presenting the best person to help us be a better family, a better human family. People understand and forget this responsibility because they're selfish. They're lost into the grid of this material world. They're more interested in partying or whatever than to be parents. But they want to have kids so they can have the clout of being parents. Cause this is what the world is today. So I think that's kind of what is going on, basically. But I'm not afraid of social media and its influence in the life of those that are close to me. Because at the end of the day, love is very powerful. If you not try it, it creates the highest influence in your community and society.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:46):

Thank you for sharing that. So the way we wrap up these conversations is just a fill in the blank. And the statement is, if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three.

Seun Kuti (01:04:01):

If you really knew me, you'd know that I am the laziest motherfucker alive. Yeah, yeah. That is it. That is my, that's my superpower.

Lazy is for me. Cause I don't want to sound, it's just humanity. Let me tell you the truth. I believe that we are put here to just spend all our time chilling, relaxing, looking up at the stars, contemplating on the universe. Then you go out, pick some fruits to eat. Handsome stuff. Go back to your house that your community has you all built together. Protected. Go back, you contemplate the world again. Think about your mistakes yesterday. See how you can be a better person. Develop your human relationships. This is what I think we're here for. So this is what I'm doing most of the time. But then I have this guy that who reminds me that I have contracts, I have to write songs, I have to go and do shows and this fucks up my funk. So if you really knew me, I'm lazy.

(01:05:17):

Cause I don't like to do any of these things. I like to do what I believe, what I really put here for. Okay. Last week, one of the best times of my life, this year I was in bed on Monday from 6:00 PM not, I slept at about 11, but I was just laying on my bed from 6:00 PM on Monday till 7:00 PM on Tuesday. Whoa. I did not move. I did nothing. Five hours. I read the book. I did use the bathroom. I went, I mean bathroom. Came back right back, got some food, ate right there. I did not put my food on the side right back there. Same spot when I finally today was I could dance in my bed. It was such a good day. I'm like, wow, I wish I could just have another 10 years like this. And they just, oh, life is easy. But nah, they switch it all up. Got to pay all these bills. They got to move. Yeah. So if you knew me, because most people always say, oh shit, you're so hardworking.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:26):

I mean, that's true too.

Seun Kuti (01:06:28):

I don't think that is a compliment. I don't think being hardworking is a compliment. I think this is the way the system gets you to. Forget you're supposed to be chilling. Oh, you're such a hard worker and. Oh yeah. I never see any

(01:06:44):

You be a hard chiller.

(01:06:45):

Yeah, exactly. Boom. I'm a hard chiller. That's the word. I should write a song called Hard Chiller.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:52):

I'll come write it with you.

Seun Kuti (01:06:53):

Yeah. Okay. I got some poetry in me. Let's go send you some emails. I'll give you credit. No money, but credit.

(01:06:59):

No, it's fine.

(01:07:01):

You get credit.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:02):

 Put it all towards the movement.

Seun Kuti (01:07:04):

You get credit, Hard Chiller. I'll give you credit. It's actually, yeah, man. Hard chilling. You know? It is not, it's not soft chilling.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:12):

There's hard chilling and there's heart chilling.

Seun Kuti (01:07:13):

No, no. It's hard

Noor Tagouri (01:07:14):

Hard but heart chilling can contribute to your hearts.

Seun Kuti (01:07:16):

Chilling. Yeah. Your heart, Ryan, already.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:21):

It's amazing. Do you have any other, if you really knew me, you want to share.

Seun Kuti (01:07:28):

If you really knew me, you know that I really wanted to be a footballer also. But that didn't work out.  I was discouraged by my uncle who was like, after 35, you have to quit. So what would you do with your life after? Yeah. And I'm telling you that was so profound for me and his were like, all the best times of your life would be in your youth. My uncle was really against me being, cause after my dad died, Dr. Beko raised me. I lived in his house. Last was about 21. I went up to uni, came back before I moved out of his house again. So he was literally my dad. So when it was time to, I was like, man, I'm off to England. I'm going to start, I'm going to going for trials and stuff. But man, sit down. Are you sure about this football thing? Okay. You know what? And it's true. Look, today, Rolling Stones still jamming. Yeah. Pele is late now. So I want to be able to jam, jam all the time. Still be jamming. So that's why I didn't play football. So if you knew me, you'd know I would've played football. 

Noor Tagouri (01:08:43):

Well we're happy. Happy that you're making music still. And I look forward to hard chilling.

Seun Kuti (01:08:49):

Hard chilling. Listen, don't be surprised. I'm telling you. Hard Chilling. This is the life, hard chilling man. We should commit to hard chilling. We are done.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:01):

No seriously. The next call to revolution.

Seun Kuti (01:09:03):

People should chill. Let's chill.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:07):

Yeah. We'll figure that out. Seun, thank you so much for your time.

Seun Kuti (01:09:10):

My pleasure. My pleasure.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER SEUN KUTI.

YOU CAN STREAM ‘SEUN KUTI & THE EGYPT 80’ WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR MUSIC.

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.