(Transcript) “Hijab Butch Blues” Author on Being Queer and Muslim, Revisiting Prophetic Stories, Questioning Faith, and Community Care.

Title: "Hijab Butch Blues” Author on Being Queer and Muslim, Revisiting Prophetic Stories, Questioning Faith, and Community Care.

INTRO:

3, 2, 1…

Welcome back to Podcast Noor. I’m your host Noor Tagouri and I’d like to personally welcome you to this storytelling session, no matter what your intention of listening is. This is our *second* episode with an anonymous guest. The brilliant author of the memoir Hijab Butch Blues. 

Lamya H is queer, non-binary, and Muslim. Yes. There are people who are all 3. They are writer and organizer based in New York City. Lamya’s work has appeared in Los Angeles Review of Books, Salon, Vice, Vox, and others. Lamya has received fellowships from Lambda Literary, Aspen Words and Queer|Arts. They’re organizing work centers around creating spaces for LGBTQ+ Muslims, fighting Islamophobia, and abolishing prisons.

We recorded this conversation during the month of Ramadan and reflected on the similarities between Muslim community care and Queer community care, the common American Muslim struggle of double lives, we got into the concept of questioning faith, even our personal relationships with hijab. 

I read 'Hijab Butch Blues' in less than 2 days. The writing is profound, personal, and clear. Lamya poses questions throughout the book for people of all faiths. And it’s no surprise that the book was featured as Roxane Gay's March 2023 selection of 'The Audacious Book Club.”

I also feel a deep sense of urgency with this episode. Homophobia and transphobia are rampant in the United States, and it has been weighing on my heart heavily t he role many American Muslims have been playing in this. Scholars and imams I grew up listening to are now making dangerous anti-LGBTQ+ statements and I believe it is more important now than ever to amplify the HUMAN STORIES of community members who need our protection and love. I want to thank to all of the queer people in my life who have time and time again shown up in solidarity when Muslims have been marginalized and persecuted. May we always be a protection and light for each other. May we always lead with love. 

And…may you enjoy this episode of Podcast Noor with Lamya H.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

Amazing. Okay. So thank you so much for your time and for this incredible book that I read in two sittings in 24 hours. Less than four hours, actually. Wow. I know. I'm such a fan. What's so interesting about this is that the first person who told me about your book is actually one of my best friends named Becca, who lives in Italy. And she saw it there or found it there or something, and she sent me the book and she was like, I think you would really love this. And then I think somebody else also told me about it. But anyway, I saw Glennon Doyle's review of the book and I was like, oh, oh my gosh. I got so excited and I was like, I have to read this and I have to talk to this person. So I'm so honored and grateful that you're on the pod and that you said yes. So thank you. Welcome, Lamya

Lamya H. (00:01:44):

Thanks. I really appreciate that because I feel so honored to be on here. Cause I've been following your work for a while and just, I don't know, it's also just so great to be talking to someone who's Muslim about this. Yeah. So I'm really excited for our conversation.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:03):

Me too. I was talking to Adam earlier and he was like, so how are you approaching this interview journalistically? How'd you prepare for it? I was like, this is an interview. I feel like I've been prepared for a very long time. I just, there's so many questions and so many points of conversation that I feel like I look forward to us having right now. Because I think that for me, as somebody who's on a spiritual journey myself and asking the big questions of who am I and what do I believe and all of the things in between, I think that when it comes to bodily autonomy and just transparently queerness in the Muslim community and hijab specifically, those are two things that I'm always just, I have this big question mark around of why are we so obsessed with this in a way that isn't leading with love and autonomy and agency. So anyway, the way we kick off these conversations is a very simple question, which is how is your heart doing today, Lamya?

Lamya H. (00:03:19):

I think that's one of the hardest questions for me to answer because I don't know what your upbringing was like, but in my very immigrant Muslim upbringing, we did not talk about feelings at all. I think I even came to the realization that you're supposed to feel your feelings really late in life just wasn't intuitive to me. I didn't realize that you're just supposed to feel them as opposed to suppressing them or just glossing them over. So answering that question is really hard for me because I've had to learn how to answer it, and both honestly allowed and then also just for myself. So yeah, I'm going to be totally vulnerable here and be like, I'm kind of nervous. I get nervous every time I'm doing an interview or podcast. I get nervous in general when I'm doing anything that requires speaking, which is why I guess I'm a writer. So yeah, I'm both nervous and also just really excited.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:24):

Where do you feel your nervousness?

 Lamya H. (00:04:26):

Oh my God, I've had so much therapy to be able to answer that question, but always in my throat. What about you? Where do you feel things?

Noor Tagouri (00:04:39):

It's funny that you said throat because I actually, I think sometimes it's often my throat as well. I also have a thyroid related autoimmune disease, and I was talking to my aunt who also has one about it, and she was saying how trauma in this area oftentimes is rooted in when you feel like you weren't able to say something that you needed to say or speak on something, or if you've had trouble getting something out that needed to be said. And so sometimes I'll feel like a lot of warmth around my throat as well, actually. And I feel like being able to notice that is a really big win because I think, you know, can feel nervousness all over your entire body, but when you're able to pinpoint the source, you can better ask that question as, what is the message that my body is telling me right now or is sending to me right now?

Lamya H. (00:05:39):

Right. Yeah. And then that makes it easier to address it.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:43):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, so I read this book, shared it immediately, and even simply just sharing, I just was really bombarded with a lot of messages

(00:06:06):

And I had people who I don't always talk to or hadn't reached. We just had so many people reach out to us about the book. And it was so interesting how activating and how triggering it was because to me, I really thought it was such a beautiful and phenomenal approach to writing. You used these amazing stories from the Quran and the prophets that we heard growing up to really deeply reflect and document your own personal journey of coming into your own. It was really about coming into yourself as an individual. And it makes me sad when I find that people react to somebody documenting and speaking their truth. And so I thought about you a lot during those few days because I was just like, man, this is just from sharing it. I know that you have cultivated a really beautiful community, but I have to ask when, tell me about the feelings that you had leading up to publishing “Hijab Butch Blues,” and the reaction or the response that you got shortly after.

Lamya H. (00:07:26):

I definitely felt a lot of feelings in the lead up. I was definitely very sort of scared and nervous because I mean, part of it is just the act of writing a memoir in general. Totally, yeah. Because you do all the writing by yourself and then you put it out there in the world and then suddenly all these people are reading. And a lot of what I wrote feels really vulnerable because it feels really sort of honest and it just felt like I was talking about myself in ways that I don't generally with other people. And so I think I was just really nervous in general about that aspect of it, that suddenly everyone will all of these things about me. And then I was definitely, I was scared about the sort of “Muslimness” of it and how it'll be received. And to be quite honest, I was actually scared on both ends.

(00:08:34):

I was scared about totally how my critiques about queerness will be received to, and the way that those can sometimes get, the way that queerness can end up reproducing normativity in these ways that are really hard. And also racism and classism and transphobia. So I was scared about that. I was like, will people still invite me to their potlucks? And then I was also just really sort of scared about how it'll be received in terms of Muslim communities. And part of it was also, will Muslim people read it? Will people be so sort of defensive because of the synopsis or will they just glance at the title and then have their preconceived notions and then not read it? Even though for me, what was important to me when I was writing this book was that I wanted it to be really, really Muslim. I wanted to not apologize for faith or for the way in which our stories should also be considered canon. And the way that I didn't want to explain things. I don't want apologize for faith and for piety and for taking Islam seriously. So I was, because of that, especially I think I was really nervous for how it would be received.

Noor Tagouri (00:10:11):

I've also had experiences where things get taken out of context or people have reactions based on a headline or people have a reaction based on a lack of the fuller story. And for that response, that very surface level response, I very much feel like that's just not in our control. Those are people who are having opinion, who make those opinions and who publicize those opinions. You can have opinions, but to have the audacity to broadcast them or share them and take up that space without your opinion being fully formed or thought or engaged, I feel like that you just kind of have to weed out because it's simply truly a reflection of somebody's own inner insecurity and wanting to control a specific image. And I think that when it comes to Muslim representation specifically, because there is still such a lack of Muslim representation in media in general, that when there's a hyper individualized experience that's documented that people want to resist, there's, there's this reaction that I had when people were reaching out and it was just like, who are you to say, oh no, this story is not valid or is not welcome.

(00:11:41):

It's a person. A person is a story and their story is their truth, and they get to take up all the space that they want. And if you feel so strongly about it being different than yours, then go work on yours and go focus on yours. And so I really loved and admired and respected that you maintained not just the “Muslimness” of it all, but the fact that I was revisiting the stories of the prophets throughout your book in a way that I had never done myself. I had never asked those specific questions around it. And something that the book really taught me in your writing really taught me is what a beautiful act of faith it is to ask questions that you didn't know that you were allowed to ask. And I think I often thought of that in very personal regards, questions I was asking about myself.

(00:12:35):

But in when you were sharing the stories of Maryam or the prophet Abraham or even Yunus and Yousef, like all of those stories came with questions in a rethinking that was so personal. So I would love to just understand a little bit of how you and yourself got to a place where you were able to rethink the stories that you were taught and ask bigger questions. And I know it started with the story of Maryam for you when you were younger, so I'd love to know how that kind of changed the way that your brain thought about stories.

Lamya H. (00:13:14):

Yeah, so I think it's so interesting because even in the Quran itself, I think there are so many stories of people including prophets, constantly questioning God and constantly questioning their faith. And to me, that's so powerful. I Raim, for example, has talked to God and still is like, Hey, I'm not totally sure that I know my gosh, or that I understand how you would bring back something that's dead. How would you make it alive again? And the fact that Ji is asking God this directly, I find that so powerful. And that's not the only story. There's also Musa who was like, Hey, God, I'd love to see you. And then Allah's like, what? No, this mountain can't bear to see me. So how do you think you would be able to survive being seeing me? And then, yeah, there are just so many other stories. There's also, there's also the story of the man who comes across a dead donkey and just, I just find it so powerful that in our holy text we're being taught to question faith. And at the end of the day, I think that's one of the most powerful things about faith in general, is that it only exists because of doubt, and it exists because of questions. Because otherwise, if you knew for sure, then it wouldn't be faith.

(00:14:52):

Yeah. But there's just something about it, and the fact that it's folded into our religion feels just so powerful. And yeah, and to me, I read a lot as a kid. I was always reading books and I was always sort of questioning the characters and their motivations and their decisions and being like, why is this person doing this? Why not this? And to me growing up, it actually felt pretty consistent to do that with stories from the Quran as well. And not everyone is open to questioning. Not everyone is open to listening to these questions. And I definitely had teachers at or on teachers or I'd go to talks and people would just be really uncomfortable at questions. But I think

Noor Tagouri (00:15:43):

Can you share some of that? I'm really curious about that because that's something that I'm investigating right now is why are we so afraid to ask questions? And because you, I also strongly believe that this, our faith tradition is one that encourages asking questions. But even when it's right there in the faith itself very explicitly, when the actual act of asking questions happens, it's not always met with a very open response or response that encourages exploration anywhere outside of the way we were traditionally taught. So what did that look like to you, and what is a question that you may be asked a teacher and how did they respond and how did you start to understand, oh, this is a human problem, this is a person problem, this is an insecurity.

Lamya H. (00:16:42):

What I find most fascinating is that there's no correlation between who is open to being asked questions and in progressiveness. So for example, when I was younger, I had this aunt teacher who was an imam at a mosque nearby, and he was just very traditional and had a beard, wore a thobe and just was super traditional. But I remember being six or seven and learning to read the Quran with him, and he would just be so open to answering me and my brother's totally ridiculous questions. And there's this part in the book actually, where I talk about this incident in which I asked him if God was a man or a woman. And he was just so patient being like, well, neither, even though he could have deflected the question, or he could have been like, well, in Qu’ran, God uses hah as a pronoun, but he was just took our questioning so seriously.

(00:17:55):

And I think there's this way in which people condescend towards kids, especially, especially when kids have questions about faith, and they just assume that kids won't be able to handle complexity even though kids are just constantly navigating their worlds and constantly learning things. And so actually they're thinking is so complex already. But yeah, that's definitely something that comes to mind, this incident in which my very traditional teacher took us so seriously. And meanwhile, there have been other times when, so another story that I write about in the book is when I was at this halaqa at feminist halaqa where I was using they pronouns for God and people kind of freaked out. And so it's really interesting to me how, yeah, there's just no correlation between progressiveness and tradition and I guess tradition and being able to handle questions. Yeah.

AD BREAK - REP

Noor Tagouri (00:19:06):

Well, what's a question that you are asking yourself right now these days?

Lamya H. (00:19:11):

Oh, I'm asking myself a lot of questions always, but Ramadan just ended, and I've been thinking a lot about community and I don't know the extension of community and community care to people that we don't necessarily know. I've, I've been thinking about Sudan a lot, and just all of these people basically made refugees overnight having to leave one's home and just, yeah, I don't know. I've been thinking a lot about what are our rights towards other people and people that we may not directly be in community with, as in people who we don't see on a regular basis, but who exist and are and should be part of our networks of care. I'm also thinking a lot about trans kids and just healthcare rights being taken away, people who are pregnant and wanting reproductive justice. And yeah, I've thinking a lot about how to extend community care to people who are really struggling right now.

Noor Tagouri (00:20:36):

Well, what does community care look like for yourself and how have you redefined community as who you are today?

Lamya H. (00:20:49):

It's definitely something that I think changed the trajectory of my life. And I think it's so interesting because I think there's so many parallels between queer community care and Muslim community care.

Noor Tagouri (00:21:03):

Totally.

Lamya H. (00:21:05):

Yeah. I think about that a lot and this idea of why going to a mosque or going to someplace on a regular basis, how that creates community and how that creates networks of care. And yeah, I just think of people going to Friday prayers every week and seeing the same people over and over and noticing when someone isn't there or just the way in which that sets up ways to help each other and be there for each other, whether it's babysitting or helping someone out if they're facing food insecurity. But then also it's really interesting because queer communities have that too. And it was definitely something that I feel like I was missing a lot when I just moved here and was learning how to be a person in the US and then also a person after college. And just really growing into what kind of life I want to live, who are the people that I want to be surrounded by. And finding sort of queer Muslim community specifically just really changed my life. It taught me so much about organizing, about conflict, about how to be in community with people that you wouldn't necessarily choose as your friends, people that intergenerational friendships, how to show up for each other. And I think seeing other people live their muslimness and live their queerness really helped me come into those identities for myself.

Noor Tagouri (00:23:01):

What does it mean to be queer and Muslim to you today? But I would also love for you to reflect on how you would've answered that question when you were a young person who was just figuring out they were queer.

Lamya H. (00:23:24):

It's really interesting because I, I think people expect this sort of conflict between the two identities. And I don't think I really grew up experiencing that. I mean, part of it was I didn't have necessarily the words to talk about my queerness and I, yeah. So yeah, to me, those things weren't necessarily in conflict with each other. They both just were, and I was figuring out both of them in some ways. At the same time, I was figuring out how I wanted to be Muslim. I was figuring out what parts of it really, really spoke to me and what parts I was angry at and what parts, how I wanted to interpret things, how I wanted to live my muslimness. And then I think that there was a similar process with queerness too, where sometimes it felt very hegemonic. There was one particular way to be queer.

(00:24:39):

I'm out to your parents in this big fanfare, and then they can either choose to accept you or not, and then you're out and here's your life. Whereas that isn't how things have played out for me. And so I feel like I was also really trying to figure out what parts of queerness really spoke to me, and which parts allowed me to live a life that felt intentional and felt that felt was rooted in community and care and love and justice. And so to me, I feel like I was figuring out both of those at the same time. And I think I'm still figuring them out. I think that's the beauty of both those identities actually, is that even now I feel like I don't have it entirely figured out, but there are things that I know I value and that I want in my life. And again, it's so interesting because I think that's what God wants us wants of us too, this idea of intentionality and effort and constantly figuring out how we want to live. So I feel good about that being in a process of figuring it out.

Noor Tagouri (00:26:14):

How do you explain that or share that with young people who also may have not, and I shouldn't even just say young people, just people in general who are of the Muslim faith tradition and haven't come out to their family or their friends or are dealing with this isolation? I think, okay, I should just ask it a lot easier. So I think that Muslims, especially American Muslims in general, we held in a thought last week or a couple weeks ago, and I asked, and somebody mentioned living a double life growing up, and I asked them, I was like, what? Raise your hand if around the table if you're a Muslim and if you've ever felt like you were living a double life. And almost every single hand went up, and this isn't obviously living

Noor Tagouri (00:27:11):

Queerness or anything like that. It's just the fact that so many American Muslims have felt like they had to have different versions of themselves to the different people around them. And it's rare to have a scenario, especially growing up, where you feel like you can be your fullest self around your family or your community, especially when there is a lot of judgment or there is a lot of shame, or there is a lot of, I'm, I can get in trouble for this, or there is a lot of imposing your belief onto someone else. And so, you know, articulated beautifully in the book what it meant for you to find community and to find a community family that you are your fullest self around. And as of reading the book, your immediate family does not know. And I feel like that parallels or represents a lot of this obstacle of being multiple people to the people that we love, so that we can maintain a sense of safety or maintain a sense of still being loved and still being welcome. And so how do you advise people who are navigating that internal battle who are just like, because I feel like the compartmentalization of identities can be so exhausting, and so it can be so burden burdensome, but if that ends up being the decision that you make, because that's what gives you the most peace, what do you say to people who are like, I don't know, this is getting, I'm really tired.

Lamya H. (00:28:57):

Oh, that's so real and such a good question, and one that I genuinely don't know how to answer. Because yeah, I guess the only thing I have to add to your beautifully articulated question is that, I don't know, sometimes leading a double life and sometimes not telling your parents or your, I guess, wider community, certain things just really comes from a place of love, love and empathy. And I don't know, I think about that a lot in terms of my parents and other, other people who are navigating their lives and also choosing what to share or not share with their parents. But I don't know, sometimes this idea of authenticity and living your full self, I don't know, maybe it's okay to sometimes, I don't know, hide parts of yourself from other people. I don't know. Because sometimes it can be really rooted in just a love and an empathy and just knowing that the person that you're hiding things from just won't understand. And not that they don't, don't have the information, it's just sometimes people just don't have the capacity to understand. And sometimes people come from really hierarchical cultures where respect is such a big thing, and just respecting your elders and just not fighting back or not asking questions. Yeah, it, it's just like, yeah, sometimes, but then

Noor Tagouri (00:30:42):

There's love. Yes, that's the thing though. But then there's love and I don't know. Yeah, sometimes when I think about it too is I'm just, I think about how the families that we come onto this planet with, we chose each other. We are each other's tests. And I've been thinking a lot about how love to me, I believe is the source and the root of everything that matters and everything that's real. And that's the one thing that I know for sure is that the answer is always love. And I think that I would love, if you're comfortable to talk about just some of the things that you've, and you can feel free to be like, nah, not for me, but you know, are in a loving relationship and you lead this really beautiful love-filled life. And do you ever think about I wanting to share that with the people that love you and know you when you're with them? Or is there ever a moment of just, I wish we could go there?

Lamya H. (00:32:00):

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's really, really hard. There's something so sad and tragic about it, and there's something just really heartbreaking about people that I love not knowing that my life is filled with so much love, but yeah, I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:23):

But how do you think about, are, I'm asking this for all the people who are going to listen to this and who are in that, those same feelings. How do you choose to really navigate that? And is there a period at the end of, I will never tell my parents, or I will never share this part with them? Or is it a question mark? Is it today? I'm not, but maybe tomorrow I will.

Lamya H. (00:32:52):

No, it's definitely a question mark and it, it obviously doesn't work for everyone. So I think a lot about trans folks, for example, who don't necessarily have the luxury of not being out. But yeah, I mean, I really wish I had some sort of magical reframing that would make it easier or that would make it, that would make it more possible. But it's hard and you live it. Yeah. 

Noor Tagouri (00:33:32):

I think that you using that pain or test to, and making it into art and making it into words is such a beautiful service because I think simply the act of literally putting together a book and being like, Hey, you're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. And this is how this, it's not like you're like, Hey, I figured out how we can do this. I figured out how I do this, and I hope that you can. It's the power of representation. I hope that you can see some of yourself in me in this. 

AD BREAK BETWEEN NOOR’S BITE

And I've been thinking a lot. I've myself have just been rethinking hijab a lot too, which is also why this book was so touching and moving for me because it felt like it was, it's something that you know, came to from this place of your own want and your own reflection on Meam the mother of Jesus and her individuality and power. So I'd love to know, I never like to ask questions about hijab because I don't like to be asked questions, and that seems to be the thing that everybody likes to ask me about, but it is in the title of your book, and so I feel like it's okay. But I would love to know what your relationship with hijab is, and if you have ever do rethink it, or what are the questions that you ask about it or what does it mean to you?

Lamya H. (00:35:10):

First of all, it's really nice to be talking about this. I don't usually, but it's actually, I love that sort of framing, and I love that. I love being able to talk about it with someone who's also grappling with it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something I grapple with a lot and it looks different for me on different days sometimes. Sometimes my hijab is a head scarf and sometimes a beanie, and sometimes it's a backwards hat, so it takes many shapes and forms and yeah, I, I think the thing I actually really dislike when people make it about modesty or even about covering your hair is if same, that's the as if those are the end points or even something to strive towards. For me, it's like, it's a way of reminding myself of God. And I think the times in which I've grappled with it the most are weirdly the times that I've needed it the most. So yeah, I don't know. I think the thing, wait,

Noor Tagouri (00:36:24):

Tell me more about that.

Lamya H. (00:36:25):

Oh, you would pick the one thing that I dropped in there that was, yeah. No, I think to me, it's a reminder of God every time I put it on. And obviously this is not an every time I put it on, sometimes I just put it on, but to me, when it's working best, it's like, okay, I am going about my day and here's this thing that I'm doing for God. Here's this thing that makes me feel closer to so many of the beautiful, complicated figures in the Quran that I really admire. It makes me feel, it makes me feel like I'm part of something that's bigger than myself, part of the universe in some way. And I know that's so cheesy, but it feels like a connection. And I think that to me, yeah, I think to me that's, that's the most important thing. And in the times when I have not wanted to wear it or the times that it's taken different forms, I think just coming back to this idea of letting that feeling move through me and not fighting it and just being like, okay, this is something that I'm grappling with. It's something that I'm asking questions about. It's something that I'm trying to figure out. Just the prophets we're figuring it out.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:18):

Do you think that you Can fully figure it out while wearing it?

Lamya H. (00:38:21):

Oh my God, another excellent question.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:27):

As a journalist who is always striving to be objective and then also internally trying to be a, because for me, I feel this, I've, since I finished my investigation rep, which broke me wide open and asking these bigger questions of who are we and why are we the way that we are and why are we alive? I feel, especially with hijab, that there's been such a weight of what you are representing. And because it's being so politicized even recently and stuff, and obviously there is a component of being a public figure who's been know who's known while wearing this and all of this stuff. And I'm just like, okay, wait, what am I actually doing this? And have I ever rethought it? And is this something that I'm asking all these questions? And then I'm just like, wait, is this something that, are these questions that I can actually ask while I'm engaging in wearing it? Are these questions that I can actually ask while engaging wearing it? Do I need to become more objective in order to really ask this? And this is a really tremendous question to have to ask, because the reality of it is that everyone has an opinion about it. And it's so scrutinized that I'm realizing since the second I started wearing it, it's always been scrutinized. It's always been talked about. So I'm trying to navigate myself, what is the most objective and authentic and true way that I can actually ask these questions and find answers that are not influenced by other people.

Lamya H. (00:40:23):

I can wait for this essay or podcast that you're going to do about this, because I think it's going to be so deep, and I think it's going to, it's ask more questions than it answers, which I know is so annoying. But I really can't wait to see what comes out of your questions,

Noor Tagouri (00:40:46):

Out of my downward spiral.

Lamya H. (00:40:48):

Out of your upward spiral. It really sounds like upward spiral. Upward spiral. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:40:56):

Yeah. I mean, what I'm thinking about, so I would love to know, because as I hear you talk about your reasons for wearing hijab, I've said all of those reasons of that too. I've said every single thing, and I felt it. And I also am just like, now I'm like, okay, but I think, I don't know, fundamentally I'm, do I believe that God wants my hair to be covered, or is it about hair, or why is it it that when people react so much to seeing hair, it feels like a person who chooses to wear it is being reduced to that. And that's not just from Muslims, especially from Muslims I, it's something that I feel like I'm just like, wait, this reducing me to just this thing that I choose to do is so dehumanizing, and so how do I take back my own humanity and figure that out for myself? And these are, again, all questions, no answers, and I'm in a very big state of asking questions, but I'd love to know if you've gotten there with your questions. 

Lamya H. (00:42:01):

Yeah. So what's interesting for me is that another angle of questions that about hijab that really has me in a tizzy is a way that it ends up feminizing people and it really fucks with notions of gender. I think about it a lot in terms of my gender identity too. And yeah, I don't know. I think it's interesting because for a really long time I thought that I couldn't call myself non-binary because I wore hijab and is so, it makes me be read as a woman in this very sort of overt way. So to me, what's also been really interesting is playing with what hijab looks like. So for example, when I wear a beanie and walk down the street, people can't necessarily tell that it's my hijab. And so I don't know, the way that I'm read is so different, and I know it's so cliche to say this a

Noor Tagouri (00:43:19):

Lot more non-binary

Lamya H. (00:43:20):

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But sometimes I get the sort of queer head nod from people. Yeah, hey, I see you. Which is really interesting because I do that head nod with hijabi. Every time I see hijabi, I'm like, Hey, eye contact, super secret, head nod. Yeah. So to me, another aspect of it is also the sort of genderedness of it, but I also, on my end, I think weirdly, my wearing hijab also expands that. Yeah. So I don't know. Those are also angles that I'm thinking about a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:00):

Yeah, I, okay. I guess I, I'll just ask you, what do you think, based on your own reading and interpretation and how you have come to the faith, what is hijab to you? What is it? Is it about covering our hair and bodies? Is it a connection to God? What is it?

Lamya H. (00:44:27):

Yeah. No, I think it's about God consciousness. And it can take on different forms. It can take on vastly different forms for people. I also, I don't know. I also think that there are multiple paths to God. Just because the path that I'm on works for me doesn't necessarily mean that it works for other people. And I actually, I don't think God would be petty enough to be like, Hey, here's this other path that is bringing this person closer to them. But they'd be like, no, wait, there's only one path. Yeah, I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:05):

I say, that's what, that's exactly how I feel. And that's why I say it's a human problem, because it's like, why do we, even with wanting to call God, they, because God also refers to themselves as we in the Qur and stuff. And just being like, why do we think that the majesty of God who we can't fully comprehend in our brains, would get offended By a word that they know in their heart, in our hearts, what our intention is? Yes. Of how we're choosing to connect that. That's why it just feels like, it's like, no, God isn't offended. You are offended because you are afraid because you, we don't let our minds go there. We don't ask those questions, or we're really just trying to stick to, well, I'm not worthy of interpreting things for myself because you have to be a learned scholar. There's this notion of, unless you're a learned scholar, you can't say things out loud, which I'm not here to say I am a historian, or I know all of the stories or all of that. That's not it at all. But I don't think that you need to be a learned scholar to ask questions and to engage in conversation with God. 

Lamya H. (00:46:18):

Yeah, I agree. And then this is also the same God that has the most beautiful names ascribed to them, including the most merciful and the most loving and the most kind. And yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes we forget those things.

Noor Tagouri (00:46:41):

So something that I noticed that you did in the book, you talk about all of the chapters are broken up by these stories of different prophets, and I was hesitant. I was like, do I want to ask this? Do I not want to? But I was thinking about it too much, so I was like, of course I'm going to ask it, and you obviously can answer it exactly how you want to. So when it comes to queerness, the story that is always referred to in conservative Muslim communities is the story of Loot or Lot. And you specifically did not reference, you didn't reference that story in the book. You didn't even touch on what the traditional, you weren't like in the tradition, in the conservative form of the tradition. This is what people think. You were just like, no, this is my story. I'm talking about it through my reflections. And you engaged so deeply and so thoughtfully with the stories of so many of the other prophets and figures in the religion. So tell me about that decision, and if it was something that you thought about and if it was how maybe you chose to engage with that story off the page.

Lamya H. (00:48:00):

That is an excellent question. You really went there.

Noor Tagouri (00:48:05):

I'm like, wait, listen, I'm a Muslim woman who's interviewing you. We're just going to skip through everything, hope that everybody reads the book and gets straight to the nitty gritty.

Lamya H. (00:48:15):

Yeah. So what's really interesting is that I feel like I have been engaging with that story so much since I came into my queerness that at this point, it feels like, it feels like I've engaged with it so much that it's almost like boring because there's so many different interpretations of it, including what the people of Lot were punished for, their interpretations about how it was actually rape and not sodomy, their interpretations about their highway robbery and just all of these other terrible things that they did. And a lot of people have written extensively about the ways in which Prophet Lot offers his daughters, and why would he do that? That's such a weird, what are you offering them in terms of sex or marriage? But marriage is never mentioned anywhere. And so, I don't know, there's just, there's a lot of lot of layers to that story that I think we don't always fully know. And there are a lot of layers that are confusing and just not, we just don't know. And so one of the people who is written about it is Scott Kugel in his book, “Homosexuality in Islam,” and yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think that there are so many different interpretations of it that I, I don't know, other people have written about it better than I could. That make sense? Yeah, totally. It's

Noor Tagouri (00:50:00):

Interesting though, because I feel like when I talk to queer Muslims, they share that sentiment of, there's so many different interpretations. And then when you hear people in the communities that I grew up in, which were a lot more conservative, there're like, no. And other, there's this almost this reaction of there are no other interpretations. And not only are there not any other interpretations, but if you bring any other interpretations, the first instinctual reaction is to dismiss it or discredit the person who wrote it, as if they're just trying to write something to appease themselves. And it's just like, but isn't that so limiting like that? And sometimes I wonder if the obscurity in that story is also just a test To see If people will choose the path of love and acceptance, or they'll choose the path of trying to control and put people down. Because I've never, for me personally, and all of the things I'm saying are my personal opinions, but I feel like it's one thing to be like, everybody goes through different tests in life, but I don't feel like love is something that you get tested by in that way, where it's just like, you can experience love, but you can't have it. That doesn't make sense because God is love. 

So sometimes I wonder if the obscurity of that story and the way that people react to it is part of the test of, are you going to think about this through the lens of a loving God, or are you going to think about it through the lens of wanting to control other people? And even if you don't ever get to that place, what is the obsession with trying to control other people's bodies? This is what I keep coming back to. It's like, why are we so obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, whether it comes to wearing the hijab or not wearing the hijab or queerness or transness. Why are we not just focused on ourselves and being a good person ourselves?

Lamya H. (00:52:13):

Yeah. I really, really, really love that reframing. And I especially love the idea that maybe the obscurity is deliberate and there's a test in there. And also, I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's place to judge us, and the best that we can do is try to live a life that feels like it's worthy of this life that God has given us.

Noor Tagouri (00:52:53):

Yeah, I love that. So my whole hypothesis of why you decided to not write the story, not put that in your book, is simply because you're like, yeah, I just engaged with it way too much that I found it boring to write about.

Lamya H. (00:53:11):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:12):

This is why I needed to ask. Yeah. Cause I needed to just get out of my head and be like, it wasn't some big philosophical scheme. It was just that wasn't meant for the book.

Lamya H. (00:53:22):

Yeah, exactly. Tell

Noor Tagouri (00:53:24):

Me about your relationship with writing, and just if you're open to sharing a little bit more of your background, what role did writing play in your life? And I know you never really specifically share where your family's from and stuff, but if you're open to it, I would just love to know the traditions that you come from that led you to choosing this as your art form.

Lamya H. (00:53:49):

So I read a lot as a kid, and then also as a young adult. So I don't know, I think of reading as sort of pre-writing. It is,

Noor Tagouri (00:53:59):

It totally is, You're a better writer the more you read.

Lamya H. (00:54:03):

Agreed. So I actually didn't write until pretty late in my life. In my life, late twenties, I would. So what happened was that I would tell all these stories about how something had happened that was really messed up, or some form of discrimination or something. So I would tell people these stories. And this one time my friend was so, you know, feel all of this sort of rage and anger, and it kind of dissipates when you tell the stories. It's something that I've noticed you should consider writing them down instead. And I was like, so

Noor Tagouri (00:54:42):

Anger management?

Lamya H. (00:54:43):

Totally, a hundred percent. And this friend is someone who I respect a lot, and I was like, okay, let me try it. And I tried it and I found myself, I found that I really, really enjoyed it, and I found that in addition to the anger management aspect of it, it also allowed me to ask questions, and I'd be stuck about something in my head, and I'd be like, why do I just keep coming back to this? What about it feels so tangled? And I found that when I wrote about it, it didn't necessarily disentangle it, but it allowed me to look at it from different aspects and ask different questions and just really, really just get a better picture of it. So that's how I started writing. And I wrote essays at first, and then I found myself writing this essay about Hager, which is one of the essays that comes towards the end of the book.

Lamya H. (00:55:47):

I found myself writing it, and then I realized that in some ways, the essays in this book are essays that I've been, sort of things that I've been thinking about my whole life. And so writing the book followed naturally from there.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:04):

How long did writing this book take you?

Lamya H. (00:56:08):

It took about, I'd say maybe a year and a half. So the pandemic shutdown happened when I was about maybe a third of the way through it, and I have the kind of job where I have to be in person for, and I couldn't work from home. And so suddenly I had all this sort of time and space to write, and so I found myself sort of speeding through writing the rest of it pretty fast.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:35):

What did your writing days look like?

Lamya H. (00:56:40):

A lot of early pandemic stuff, cooking, elaborate meals, doing a lot of writing in between just, and then a lot of zoom workouts to really get those juices flowing.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:06):

I working out good food and

Lamya H. (00:57:10):

Time and space.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:11):

Yeah. Yeah.

Lamya H. (00:57:13):

Also, this thing happens to me when I'm working on an essay where I feel sort of consumed by it, and I find myself thinking about it a lot in ways that feel really fun. So I'll be taking a shower and then I'll have all of these sort of ideas, or I'll be on a walk and I'll have these ideas. And so there's this way in which it feels like I'm not a person who's a daily practice, who has a daily writing practice. I wish I was, was a lot more disciplined in that way. But I definitely am the kind of person where once I get my teeth into an essay, it feels like I can't let go.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:55):

Ah, amazing. Are you working on any writing now?

Lamya H. (00:58:00):

I am, but it's so much in the beginning stages that it feels weird to talk about.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:06):

Okay. So not even a hint. Not even this, is it memoir? Is it fiction?

Lamya H. (00:58:14):

No, I can give you a little bit more since you asked so nicely. It's fiction, and the general theme is going to be about it. It's going to be about creative resistance in the Gulf and the way in which people who live there are able to find ways to resist despite constraints.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:48):

Love that. I mean, yeah, you have such an interesting story of your family being from a southeast Asian country and then living in the Gulf and then moving to New York and becoming this New York, this New Yorker, this definition of what it means to be in New York. And it's, I, ugh. I'm so excited. That's amazing. Yes. No, go for it.

Lamya H. (00:59:11):

Oh, I was just going to say, best city in the world,

Noor Tagouri (00:59:14):

Truly, your social media situation is “Lamya is angry”. Are you still angry?

Lamya H. (00:59:26):

Yeah, I am. Don't a bad,

Noor Tagouri (00:59:30):

So happy. In your voice, how have you redefined anger?

Lamya H. (00:59:37):

That's a really good question. I was always an angry kid. And the, as I've sort of grown up, to me, anger has actually become a motivating force towards justice. I know that there's this way in which even Islamically, you're taught that anger is something that if you're standing up, you should sit down. If you're sit down, if you're sitting down, you should lie down it. It's something that you're supposed to let dissipate. But for me, anger has actually been something that I've been able to channel into things like writing or organizing or activism. And so to me just, I don't know. I don't ever want to lose the ability to be angry at things, especially at injustice.

Noor Tagouri (01:00:25):

Love that. I love it.

AD BREAK - ISEEYOUFOUNDATION

Lamya H. (01:00:52):

I also feel like I got a sense of some of your existential crises. Is that correct? Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:00:59):

That's so correct. That's so correct. But it's a part of the journey, right? We're on the planet to experience. That's why I welcome it. I mean, I know it's not easy and none of it is, but I welcome it. And I always, I have so many queer friends and I have really redefined community for myself in so many ways. And I realized that for me, community is really about collecting people who lead with love and service and curiosity and are very open and ask questions without the intention of getting an answer or imposing their beliefs onto you, but simply as a way to witness one another. And so I tend to gravitate towards people that give me the space to just be instead of trying to fix anything. And I feel like growing up that it was a little bit different, and I've asked questions since I was a kid, so that has never changed.

(01:02:04):

But as I'm evolving and growing up that I'm realizing, oh, not all questions are welcome to everyone, or just questions just make people really uncomfortable, but that feels like the power of the question and why we need to be asking them why we need to be asking them more. So I'm grateful for the questions that you've posed here and in your book and how you talk to how you just approach things. But I keep thinking about young queer Muslims who are really just struggling in this. And there are some tragic stories that I have happened in our spaces of people dying by suicide when they haven't been able to reckon their own identities or people, I mean, I don't have to describe them these stories, I'm sure, but I would love to just hear you speak to a person who is a queer person of a faith tradition that doesn't welcome queerness and is wondering if life is for them.

Lamya H. (01:03:31):

Wow. That's a really good question, and one that is really hard to answer. I think to me, what I would go would tell myself when I was younger is that the joys and there will be joys are so worth it. Yeah, I know. That's not a very sort of comprehensive answer. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:14):

Well, you also, I literally realized as I asked you that, and it is, where is it? Right? In the beginning of the book, you literally write about not wanting to be alive, but it wasn't in a dramatic way. It wasn't, it was just a very clear fact. It was just like, this is how I felt, This is what I'm going to do with this feeling.

Lamya H. (01:04:41):

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something that I remember vividly, this idea of wanting to disappear. It wasn't even a wanting to die. It was just a wanting to not have been, if that makes sense. And I don't know, I think in some ways some of that just never goes away, but there has been so much joy in my life, and there's been so much beauty and so much love. I wish that I could go back to the younger me and I don't know, tell that kid that those would be things that would make everything worth it.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:40):

Now I have a little bit of a more, maybe even more uncomfortable one, but I'm going to ask it. And if you say no, then that's absolutely beautiful and fine. But you're on here completely anonymously. I have no idea who you are, what your real name is. I'm assuming it's not Lamya, but I do feel like I have a sense of who you are for sure. But I would love to ask the person behind Lamya, if you ever did feel like you wanted to share a little bit more about who you were or who you are with your parents or siblings, what would you say to them? What do you want them to know?

Lamya H. (01:06:31):

So I have shared with my sibling with my brother, and he was really, really amazing and just so lovely. But yeah, I mean, I wish my parents, I wish they knew how much love was in my life.

Noor Tagouri:

I can feel how grounded you are and how clear you are and how you've really made this life your own. And I'm such an honor to witness it on the page and on the pod, and I look forward to seeing what comes next and what other stories come out of you.

Lamya H. (01:07:35):

Yeah, same. I'm also excited to see where this giant experiment in being a person goes, which we're all doing, we're all engaged in this giant experiment of being a person.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:51):

So the way we wrap these conversations is with a fill in the blank. So the prompt is, if you really knew me, you would know. You can share one, two, or three things.

Lamya H. (01:08:04):

This is so cringe, but I have to say it. I love emojis, I am so into them. I really contain myself when I'm texting, but if I could, I would just text in emojis. I think that they offer a really fun way to open up what you're saying to interpretation.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:30):

Oh my gosh.

Lamya H. (01:08:31):

Yeah, I'm your favorite. Oh my God, these days I'm really into the one where it's a little melty. Smiley. The smiley. Oh my gosh.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:39):

My mom sends me that one all the time.

Lamya H. (01:08:41):

Really? See, oh my God. Wow. Me and your mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I

Noor Tagouri (01:08:47):

Love it. Yeah. Wow. Any other, if you really knew-me’s, that's a really good one.

Lamya H. (01:08:52):

I really want to run a marathon one day. I haven't yet, but I'm waiting for the right time. I feel like it's something that I would get really, really into. And the last thing I need right now is more things than I'm really, really into, but it It's on my list. Yeah, it's on my list of tudo things.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:11):

Wait, what else are you really into?

Lamya H. (01:09:16):

I started this whole writing thing and I thought it would just be a hobby, but now I'm so into it and I just like can't stop doing it. Yeah. I'm really into that. Yeah. That's a big thing. I'm really into learning how to drive. I am off the generation that just grew up where I grew up that just like didn't learn how to drive. So I'm really into learning how to drive right now. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:53):

Wow. I love it. Lamya, thank you so much. I'm going to do this thing that I just heard Adam Grant start doing, and I didn't realize I was going to do this until this very moment, but he's been wrapping his podcast episodes, asking his guests if they have any questions for him. And since this was a two-way conversation, and you absolutely don't need to do this, but just in case, are there any questions that you may have for me in this upward spiral?

Lamya H. (01:10:23):

Wow. I guess, how is your heart feeling?

Noor Tagouri (01:10:31):

Thank you for asking. Yeah. It's like the worst question anyone can ask me.

(01:10:36):

It's so funny. I always tell people I ask the question, but then I hold my breath and I hope nobody asks me back. I don't know if that's hypocritical, but my heart today is feeling really grounded and relieved. I feel like I have, I've really gone through a lot in the last couple of months, but I don't even, I say a couple of months, but it's actually been a lot longer and a lot shorter and everything in between. It's just been really, really intense, and so today I feel really grounded and grateful. I was really looking forward to this, and I just really wanted you to know that we are here to be of service in any way that we can, and that your work is so important. Your words and your story is so important, and it is an honor to get people riled up simply by sharing your book, because that just tells me how much we all need it. That's how my heart's doing.

Lamya H. (01:11:41):

Such a good answer.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:44):

Thank you so much, Lamya. I'm so happy that we got to talk.

Lamya H. (01:11:47):

Me too.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:50):

Amazing.

OUTRO:

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER LAMYA H.

BE SURE TO CHECK OUT HER MEMOIR, “HIJAB BUTCH BLUES” - YOU CAN FIND HER ON SOCIAL MEDIA AS @LAMYAISANGRY.

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.