(Transcript) Is The Climate Crisis a Spiritual Crisis? Panel with Ayisha Siddiqa and Sophia Li

Title:

Is the Climate Crisis a Spiritual Crisis? with Sophia Li and Ayisha Siddiqa

INTRO:

3, 2, 1....

The climate crisis is REAL. And it’s impacting all of our lives. It’s been on my heart to have a climate focused episode on Pod Noor but I wanted to make sure the conversation was one my listeners were really going to connect to. 

So the question I had been asking myself was: Is the climate conversation, a spiritual one? And because everything and everyone is interconnected, the answer I found was yes, of course it is. I wanted multiple perspectives and stories on this topic so - yay! Another Podcast Noor panel :) 

The first person who came to mind for this conversation is one of my dearest friends, Sophia Li. 

Sophia Li is a Chinese-American award-winning climate journalist and advocate. Her life’s work is to make talking about issues such as climate justice, human rights and web3 more accessible, more digestible, and more human. Harvard even named her one of the top climate communicators of 2022.

She is also the co-founder of STEWARD, a Digital Art collection and community that partners with conservation, environmental justice and Indigenous nonprofits and global artists to protect the major ecosystems of our natural world.

And around the time I knew I wanted to have this conversation, I saw a powerful cover of Time magazine’s Women of the Year issue featuring a young activist by the name of Ayisha Siddiqa. 

Ayisha Siddiqa is a human rights and land defender from the tribal lands of Mochiwala and Mahsan in Pakistan. She is the co-founder of Polluters Out and Fossil Free University. Her work focuses on uplifting the rights of marginalized communities while holding polluting companies accountable at the international level. she’s a climate advisor to the UN secretary general and a research scholar at the NYU School of Law, working to bridge the environmental and human rights sector with the youth climate movement. She’s also an incredible poet. 

There are many layers to this storytelling session. We dig into: the role of ego on climate change, how the war on terror has hurt the planet, the harmful assumptions of being and “activist,” personality cults, and of course how climate change is a spiritual issue. 

We recorded this in partnership with our friends at citizenM Bowery; overlooking the hustle and bustle of the Lower East Side from the iconic rooftop at cloudM. 

Oh and stick around because our post interview conversation went even deeper with the role of spirituality and religion in climate change so I recorded some on my phone to share with y’all. :)

Welcome to this episode of Podcast Noor. 

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

All right. Adam. 3, 2, 1. Wow, we're here. So good to have you both. Well, first I kind of want to, actually, I'll start with the beginning. Let's start, sorry. Sound music. Sound music. Were you doing it?

Sophia (00:00:25):

Yeah. No, it just, it popped into my head. I couldn't help it.

Noor (00:00:27):

Oh, I'm so happy to be here with you, Sophia. And you Ayisha. And do you say Aisha or Isha?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:34):

I, it's Aisha with the ain, but people can't pronounce it

Noor (00:00:38):

but I can pronounce it

(00:00:39):

So you can pronounce it.

Noor (00:00:40):

So how do you prefer?

Ayisha: (00:00:41):

With the ain, please.

(00:00:42):

Ayisha?

Noor Tagouri (00:00:43):

Ayisha.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:44):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:00:48):

That was my great-grandmother's name as well.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:50):

Nice.

Sophia Li (00:00:51):

Does it mean anything?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:55):

I think it means one who lives. Or something like that.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:59):

Oh yeah. Because I

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01:00):

Ayish

Noor Tagouri (00:01:01):

Ayish is like alive. Wow. I love it. One who lives.

Sophia (00:01:04):

Yeah. Because technically my name Sophia is Muslim.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01:07):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:07):

Sophia. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, well, it's funny that you say that because I was also telling Adam that your name is also Fay.

Sophia (00:01:16):

Yes, it's true. Yes.

Noor (00:01:17):

And he was like, what does Fay mean? So what does Fay mean?

Sophia (00:01:21):

Fay is a nickname. It was a nickname given to me by my older sister, because we had a cousin named [inaudible]. But also, if you pronounce my name in Chinese, Sophia, it'd be like Sofaya. Fay. But my real Chinese name, my middle name that's on my password and birth certificate is [inaudible]. And there's this expression in Chinese called [inaudible], which means the deepest, most wise form of love. And Sophia, it could be Greek, it could be Muslim, it could be Turkish, and it also meets the wisdom. And then Noor means

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:01):

Light.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:04):

Tata. I love it. I love that we're starting out with our names. I feel like our names are always a great place for us to start when it comes to getting to know ourselves. And in the spirit of getting to know ourselves. I'm saying this with a little smirk on my face because I feel like I ask you this almost every, at least once a week, Sophia and Ayisha for the first time. How is your heart doing today?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:34):

I'm very content. I woke up calm and I was thinking a lot. So this month has been really interesting for me personally. One day I woke up and things were blowing up, so it's been a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:53):

Can you tell us why.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:56):

So I made it to the cover of Times Magazine, which that was crazy.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:03):

You're just casually shrug this point to be the cover.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:05):

No, I didn't. It was a surprise. I actually had gotten a nose ring earlier that month and it was just healing. I wake up because my phone's blowing up and this bracelet got stuck with the nose ring and I ripped yanked it out because I was like, no way.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:22):

You yanked out your nose ring?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:23):

Out of excitement. Excitement,

Noor Tagouri (00:03:25):

Fun. Wow. Yeah. So what did they tell you? They were just like, Hey, it's a feature.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:30):

They were like, yeah, it was a feature. But then I went to the shoot and it was a really elaborative shoot. So I am, I'm somebody who doesn't talk about things until after they happen. Yeah. Because I don't want to get ain, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just like, I wait for it to happen. And then I'm like, that was, yeah, I didn't know about it. And then other than that, I was just selected to be one of the youth advisors to the UN general secretary. So there's seven of us. And that has Congratulations. Thank you. So that Antonio, Antonio Gutierrez. And that's just been a lot of work. So I've, past month I've just been banging, bang, banging, banging, work. And today it was the first day I didn't have anything on my schedule. So I woke up really calm.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:17):

Except for this.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:04:18):

Except for this.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:19):

We're recording this on a Saturday morning.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:04:20):

This feels really chill. Doesn't feel like work. Okay, come. Okay.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:23):

Thank God I'm so happy because I'm so honored that you're here. I'm so honored that you're here. Sophia, how is your heart doing today?

Sophia (00:04:32):

I'm so grateful to be here. I would take any opportunity to talk to you and you both, especially in this space, my heart is grounded. Yeah. I think I am at this beautiful transition of just embracing present and as cliche or trivial as it sounds, I'm reading a New Earth as rereading it. And it's just all about understanding ego and when it shows up and all understanding about presence and how it shows up. And I think it's actually, it came at the perfect timing because in the climate space, I'm not fully in it as maybe Ayisha is, but there's a lot of ego, surprisingly. And I think that was a big surprise for me.

Noor (00:05:18):

So yeah, we, you brought that up as a concern during fashion week and it felt like it was a little bit jarring for you, I feel like, because you have an interesting story of even how you got into the climate space. And so it's not the place I thought we were going to start. But I would love to know, I think what role ego does play in saving our planet or distracting us from doing so?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:05:50):

Me again. Okay. I think it can be a really big hindrance, especially when we're dealing with a crisis of such magnitude with there at the one end, you need an immense amount of love and you need an immense amount of nourishment and nurture. But then there's evil and it is on a path of destruction. And so to combat that evil one has to create a sort of defense, I suppose. And by evil I mean war, murder, assassinations. And it creates a kind of anger. And if that anger isn't channeled or, or nurtured or allowed to then operate in a sense of giving, what can it can do is really, really heen a kind of fight within people that is just angry. And I think that's one of the places where earlier Sophia and I were talking about the youth movement. The youth movement arose at a time where it came from a place of young people saying, future generations, I mean past generations, you have failed us.

(00:07:15):

Which I mean that is a truth in of itself, kind of. Yes. But it became a finger pointing. And with that finger pointing, folks were able to raise to platform and platform and platform. And it's really complicated, especially as somebody like myself who has just been recognized at the highest levels of doing this work. Kind of a paradox for me because my fame or attention, it's coming at the expense of the utter destruction of the planet. So is it really something that should be celebrated and glorified? I know not, but it is what is happening. And that is also where ego is coming in because we are curating, and by I mean both internally, externally, people who are looking for something to hold onto for hope, curating profits, and sometimes they're false prophets in the hope that this will save us. And I think that is where ego can just, just get so vague.

(00:08:27):

And on names and stuff we were talking about earlier in my culture and my tradition, children aren't given names until they develop a personality. Because you are not your name, you are called by your name. And so what do you call them before that's given? That's just, that's your baby. So until they show a personality or something, and the name is not given by the mother actually, or a mother in the sense of the name is not immediately in the hands of the parents, we oftentimes select a spiritual caretaker of the person as they're growing and then they give them the name. I'm bringing this up because in many tribal, native, first people's cultures protecting the environment or doing this work. And it is, it's so mainstream now. It is literally the rent you pay to live on planet earth. And it's humbling. It doesn't, it's not supposed to build your ego. And you also operate in the constant understanding that you are temporary, that you come, the earth serves, you serve it, and then you, you're dust and it's okay to be transient. It's okay to leave, it's okay. But our culture wants, individuals wants these heroes, these personality cults that would outlive everything. And that is another huge part about where the ego is just flourishing.

Sophia Li (00:10:12):

So I think to make it a little bit tangible, because oftentimes in the climate space, we use these very holistic, vague, sometimes buzzwordy terms. And I just want to say, because we're going to get a little bit spiritual here, we always get spiritual in our conversations. Yeah, yeah. Ego is directly profit. Ego is directly, has caused the systems that have created the climate crisis. And if you think about it, ego, if we look at colonialism, that is ego. Whenever you fear superior or inferior to anyone, that is ego. So when you have entire collective societies feeling superior, a global north developed countries superior than developing countries or global south, that breeds colonialism, that breeds waste colonialism, that breeds capitalism, that breeds so many of these different systems that have been causing the climate crisis. So ego, whenever there's war, that's also a form of ego.

(00:11:15):

Whenever there's, it's a cycle of ego and trauma. And that is truly what's has entirely is the basis of the climate crisis. You could boil it down literally to just ego, not for even from just an individual level, but a collected ego as well. A collected ego of my nation is better than this. I deserve this. I deserve to live in a world that has clean air and clean water, but at the expense of others. And it's okay as long as I deserve it, my community to service it my nation. So it's not to simplify it, but everything in this space can be boiled down to ego. And that's why I guess I'm, I'm discovering this now, but when I first enter this space, I'm like, oh, this space obviously wouldn't touch ego as much. Cause it's disrupting these systems that have been created off a hierarchy of superiority or inferiority.

(00:12:19):

And capitalism. And capitalism and coming from the fashion industry, you're like, oh, of course fashion industry would have ego. So I guess I enter this space a little naive, like, oh, ego wouldn't exist here. Not to that extreme, but actually it, it also mimics the patterns that entirely created the climate crisis too. It mimics hierarchy. It's also, maybe it's not anyone's fault, but it's all we know. It's like,

Noor (00:12:49):

Which makes it harder to pinpoint actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that we're not interesting. It's just meant to be how this conversation started. Because yesterday when I saw you Sophia, I was asking you, what is it on your heart that you feel like you would want to talk about in this conversation? Because I feel like when it comes to climate, there's so many, at least for me, as someone who is not deep into the climate space as you all are, I just end up feeling like I'm hearing the same things over and over and over again.

(00:13:23):

But there's this disconnect. We get desensitized to the lines that we hear over and over again. I feel this way when it comes to conversations around diversity and representation. And this is off the heels of what I was saying to you yesterday as well, which is that I really feel like when we get in this habit of hearing words or hearing statements or hearing promises or hearing messages that we no longer feel in our bodies, then where we need to go is the focus on actual stories and personal stories of how did we get here? How have you seen directly how this has impacted you? And both of you have really powerful, intimate stories of how you entered the climate space. So I would love for you both to share. And I also don't know if you've ever really shared that story, the story of the plane and that person.

(00:14:20):

Have you ever shared that and are you comfortable sharing a bit about it?

Sophia (00:14:24):

Yeah, yeah. Okay. For sure. Yeah.

Noor (00:14:26):

Just because to me, when I think about when everything really shifted for you, it felt like, it seemed like it was from this experience. Am I right or wrong?

Sophia (00:14:34):

Yeah. I think it was like, yeah, a pecking order of. Signs leading me to. Yeah.

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Noor (00:14:40):

So I would love for us to start from that place of at the inner stories and how we got here and then move from that space. Because I do feel like I've, and I remember both of you as spiritual beings lead with maybe not even vocalizing your spirituality, but it is very clear that you recognize that if we are to save our planet, we have to feel spiritually connected to the earth. And so Ayisha, can we start with you if you want to share a little bit about your entry point into this space?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:15:18):

Yeah. It's the most difficult question I often am asked because I don't have one, and mine is a little different from, so I was raised with a truly entrenched pivotal belief of responsibility. And that happened because of the class status that I have in Pakistan. My family has, it's because of the ethnic identity that we have. It's also because when you are poor in one of the poorest countries in the world, I mean recycling is not, not, it doesn't. But actually I started approaching this work as from the periphery of watching War and Conflict and being really fundamentally frustrated that the climate crisis solving, it was on the tongue of everybody around me, but nobody wanted to discuss, dissect, or even acknowledge the war on terror that we reaped in the Middle East. And then ostensibly caused havoc in the rest of the world when, see again, this is from something that my elders have taught me. When you commit violence to that extent, it has consequences. And the climate crisis as much as it is a result of capitalism as much as is a result of colonialism, it is also the result of the global north obliterating, the world.

(00:17:11):

Until it came knocking on your own door. So you're going to go and murder bomb communities. Do you not think the cries of the mothers in that land, the cries of the children in that land? The land itself is not angry with you. It's so frustrated, and I'm talking from a more spiritual perspective, but one third of the world's crude oil comes from the Middle East. The United States military has the biggest carbon footprint on the, in terms of militaries. In fact, it is one of the biggest polluters on planet earth. The planes that fly over to drop drones, they use oil, they get it at a cheaper discounted rate. And in this conversation about my future, our future children's future, the other thing that dawned upon me was, while this was all happening, it was almost as if the children of the global south, from Middle East to Africa to Asia, they were never really fundamentally thought to.

(00:18:29):

They were never truly thought rightful recipients of futures. We did not care. But it took, and I say this as somebody who is friends with these people that I work really closely, but I think this shows more about the world we live in than the young activists. It took a kid from the global north for the hearts of the global north to wake up because they could see their child in her eyes, but they couldn't see us in their children's eyes. And that is one of the scariest parts of all of this. And this is why I got involved because nobody was talking about protecting our innocence, our futures, or acknowledging the past of the havoc that was raped on Pakistan, on Iraq, on Afghanistan for the fort oil.

Noor Tagouri (00:19:30):

How old were you and was there a pivotal moment when you realized that the adults were failing you and that you needed to do something about it?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:19:44):

So I never truly grew up with that sentiment. And I don't hold that sentiment because my parents didn't fail me. Neither did my grandparents neither. They did their utter best. And that's another thing that doesn't resonate with me. I cannot point my finger to them. So

(00:20:11):

When we think of adults that failed us, there's very particular adults in very particular spaces of power who had the choice of choosing so alternative, and they chose destruction. And when I realized that I wasn't angry at my family or my parents, of course I was mourning grief because there's fast effects of war and then there's a slow onset effects of war. And the slow onset of effects of war cause you to lose culture. They cause you to lose song. They cause you to lose color in your dressing because it identity. Because now it is no longer safe for my mom to walk around in our village wearing the clothes that she would've worn 2015 year, 50 year, 15 years ago. Because it's dangerous, because fundamentalism has wreaked havoc in that community. The house that I grew up in Pakistan, we didn't have a door actually, we had a curtain and all the village, all the houses in our village have curtains. After 2013, we put locks and doors. That's how I saw it. So it wasn't, adults failed us. The climate crisis was very much purposefully done. And I think we need to acknowledge and understand that before we can get to offering solutions, we cannot keep giving the pioneers of war, the pioneers of destruction, the benefit of the doubt.

Noor Tagouri (00:22:05):

Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for the correction and the reframe and for honoring the adults who made you are today.

(00:22:18):

Sophia?

Sophia (00:22:18):

Well, what Ayisha just said, just to remind me of one of my favorite indigenous quotes, which is we don't inherit this land from our parents who borrow it from our children. And I think that a lot of communities actually have always treated the land as sacred, like your family, but those aren't the families that are usually centered. And those ideologies, which is why it's framed as these when we're pointing fingers and these adults failed us. It's very much also adults from a very specific geographic location class. And I think power structure, power structure. So my favorite question in this space is what is your climate story?

(00:23:18):

Everyone has a climate story. Yeah. I'm like, what is your climate story? And I'm like, when did you first have your wonder of awe moment with nature when you were growing up, what were you obsessed with as a kid? Did you collect rocks? Were you obsessed with water? What was it? Because we all had that as kids and a lot of times people were like, oh, I grew up in the city. I don't have a climate story. And I'm like, yeah, but we ourselves, we are nature any, that separation again is part of this. It goes on to this identity of this separation is what causes a lot of this disorientation of humans are the virus. Humans are not the virus, the systems are the viruses.

(00:24:03):

So I love asking people what their climate story is. And actually that's one of the reasons that I don't think I really understood why I was being drawn towards the space, why I identify with this space so much until I could iterate and draw and connect all the dots of my own climate story. And Ayisha is saying it's not just one thing. It's like there's so many multi-dimensional things happening in our lives that literally lead us to how we understand ourselves, how we see ourselves. And usually when you're growing up, and we talk about this a lot, is how you see yourself is how society sees you. So you only see yourself through the lens of society and then you peel that back and you realize that's not the case. And so my own climate story is that I didn't realize this until my adulthood, but my grandparents from my father's side are deep Buddhist and my great-grandfather was a Buddhist leader in China, and they practiced Buddhism illegally during the culture revolution and during the communist revolution when, yeah, also don't, it just Buddhism wasn't allowed any other religion.

(00:25:09):

And so then growing up with my father, who, my parents who were both scientists, mathematicians, they're very factual based, but they're also very spiritual people without even realizing because of their parents. And then living in China for a few years when I was younger, going back every summer, I would stay with my grandparents. And they also lived in a village. They didn't have proper toilets or proper living rooms. It was just like you're just kind of all hanging out outside the norm and then later on in life. So always this, one of the fundamental learnings of Buddhism is that you have the symbiosis with all living things, humanity, flora, fauna, everything. So that was always very ingrained. And then also I think another level and layer is that my parents are immigrants. And I think immigrant parents, sustainability is the norm. Sustainability is the necessity.

(00:26:09):

Sustainability isn't something you buy into. It's not about mason jars and bamboo toothbrushes. That is not sustainability. Sustainability is this understanding of having deep gratitude and intention for everything you use, knowing that everything, every action has a reaction. Knowing that nothing comes at the expense of others. That was very deeply ingraining. So that was another layer. There were so many other, there's macro layers and micro layers, and those are some of the macro layers for me and fundamentals. So micro layers was that when I was in middle school, when I was in elementary school, I lived in Memphis, Tennessee. Al Gore was vice president then, and I would be obsessed with Al Gore. And then he came out there and give me a truth and I was obsessed with it. And give me a truth. So I'm saying all of these details to have everyone listening, think about kind of macro levels that have contributed to their identity and micro levels that have all led you to how you view the world.

(00:27:13):

So I think the plain story that you mentioned before is that the universe will very much give you signs if you're not on the right path of your highest alignment, I believe. And if you're not listening to the signs, the universe will probably slap you across the face. It would be very obvious. And my slap across the face was that I was definitely have outgrown a role, a position. I was working at Vogue Magazine at the time and loved it, learned a lot, very high highs, very low lows. And I was having health problems, I was having anxiety attacks, and it was obviously not working, but I was still remaining there and trying to make it work. And the slap in the face was that I was on a plane that was from New York to San Francisco for my older sister sweating. I was the maid of honor.

(00:28:11):

And when the plane took off, the left engine caught on fire and we had to emergency land and evacuate, slide down the chutes. And it was that whole moment and the entire time, instead of being like, oh, okay, this might be it, it was kind of like, wait, I can't believe that this is going to be it, and I'm still at this job. There's just so much more. And I think almost every single person on that plane, not because luckily everyone was fine, even the dogs on the plane, it was kind of a wake up call. It's like, if you're not where you want to be in life, like pivot, readjust. So all to say, my entrance into climate was very just curvy and ups and downs. And I still don't think that I'm fully in the climate space. But I love this space so much.

(00:29:13):

I love the people so much.

Noor  (00:29:15):

I feel like you are

Ayisha (00:29:16):

You are, what are you talking about?

Sophia (00:29:17):

I think because I think, okay, one, I think that we were just starting with our names. There's deep meaning to words. And I think oftentimes in this space, we throw war around words super casually or other people do. Society does. So everyone just be like, you're an activist, you're an activist, Noor you're an activist. Ayisha, you're definitely an activist. And I'm like, oh, there's such nuance between an activism. And I was like, I'm an advocate, I'm was a journalist and I still am. And I tell stories and I'm an advocate. But even within activism, there is such weight that comes with different terms. Are you a land defender? Are you organizer? Do you do mutual aid? Are you working at a non-profit? Like does everyone who work at environmental are they activists? Because a lot of environmental non-profits are actually, they have completely the hierarchical student

Sophia Li (00:30:14):

Systems

(00:30:15):

At play of the climate crisis. So I think I try to move very intentionally through this space because, so I don't, in respect to the people really doing the work that I have so much incredible respect for yourself, Ayisha and just people. And some of the people who are doing the best, most incredible work. They don't even have a social following. You will never hear their name. And Ayisha was saying one of the problems and one of the things that we're coming at battles with right now is that there has been a cult of personality that has developed, and that doesn't necessarily serve the climate movement at large. There's been a lot of cult personalities. We know a lot of their names. It started with the Greta's of the world and now incredible because it's like, okay, we can finally recognize these people, especially they're from the group of south or they're marginalized, but it's almost become a individual movement instead of collective movement.

(00:31:17):

There are people like Ayisha continuously reminds us of the collective movement, but then there are some people who are like, yeah, I'm going to run with this and really be on this cult personality pedestal. And then other youth is like, Ooh, that's a job, that's a career. That's not, I'm not just an influencer. I'm an influencer for good. And I could be that if it beats back into ego. And then this past New York climate week, I met so many youth who had just graduated from college and they all wanted to be climate influencers. And I'm like, what does that mean? That's kind of to go full circle.

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Ayisha Siddiqa (00:31:53):

That's kind of like, if I may riff off of that, yes, I thought about this deeply, probably intellectualized it a little bit, but it's dangerous for multiple contexts. And I don't even blame the young people who are graduating out of college who want to be that. But rather for some reason, especially when we are observing freedom movements, mass movements from the women's rights to civil rights in this country to the salt march in India, our idea of an activist or somebody who really, really gives their all is a Gandhi, an M L K, a Rosa Parks.

(00:32:41):

And especially around young people who are from the global south, we have such different expectations. So you society wants martyr figures who have nothing, who Gandhi have slippers and a shawl. And for a black brown activist or a person of color alignment to that lack of materialism is the only way that you are allowed to have integrity. And I'll further unpack that. So oftentimes when one observes patriarchy, the idea that a woman is either a Madonna or a whore is a binary that we look at. I think for activists, you are either a Jesus like personality or you're politician, celebrity personality. And there's no in between. And it creates really, really big problems because we want people to be so down to earth that they have utterly nothing and they are suffering. And then we consume that trauma porn and then we run with it. And that is environmentalism, that is activism, that is the epitome.

(00:34:15):

And that personality is more like a Jesus figure. And everybody will point at you and tell you your fault if you don't align with that. And there's the aesthetics of activism as well. And the space is heavily dominated by women, but you can't be fully feminine or even you're sexualized. And then you're said you're not an activist. And I can point to so many different examples of that. And Sophia, you're looking at me and I want to say names, but maybe this is a conversation for another time and I can share with you how this is unfolding and how dangerous it is to young women. And then on the other end, we want our politicians, we want somebody that is Michelle Obama.

(00:35:15):

I'm, I'm trying to think of somebody who we give moral integrity to that is in a space of political power. And that has really, really bad consequences on the people that are operating in this space because society wants them to operate in this binary. And I've it personally, if you, she for example, had nail polish on a picture and somebody was like, I bet that nail polish is not sustainable. I had mascara on. And people were like, why do you have mascara on? Where did you get that from? Or every little thing you do is poked and prodded because you are supposed to be such a Jesus figure that you have nothing. Or on the other opposite, if you're getting a lot of political applause, if you're getting a lot of social applause, if you're getting a lot of attention within the mechanisms of capitalism, you're expected to take on office, you're expected to take on this public servant personality.

(00:36:29):

And the thing is, this whole rant that I'm saying this binary is a false binary because everybody can be and should be an environmental activist in their space. We need scientists who care about the environment. We need business folks who care about the environment. We need the fashion industry to care about the environment. We need chefs to care about the environment and to the point where it becomes such part of our habits that it is an activism like noun, like this glorified thing. But it is part of our lifestyle. And there are communities who live like that. It takes living outside of that community to verbalize it, articulate it, put a title on it, and then say this is a thing. This is a concept if you're doing it. And Sophia, you were talking about earlier, sustainability isn't this thing that it, it's like walking. You're not thinking about the steps that you're taking. You're just doing it because you have to. And in that you're creating an environment that appreciates everything that you take in with the knowledge that you need to give back.

Sophia Li (00:37:40):

Yes. Can I just say that this false binary plays out in so many different tropes in the climate space. So there'd be false binary of who we're putting on a pedestal. There'd be a false binary of even with products, they're either sustainable or they're not. Or there's a false binary of who can be involved in the movement itself. Either has to be youth or the older generations, there's a binary. These binaries will continuously play out. There's a binary of it's like I'm either an environmental activist or I'm not. And it's like this, we are losing the spectrum, the nuance in every single conversation when it comes to climate. And that's actually something that societally we need to transcend from. It's happened with other movements, the L G B Q T rights movement. It's like you're either straight or you're gay. Now we realize it's such a spectrum.

(00:38:39):

You are either a racist or you're not. And with so many of the global racial reckoning, we know that these aren't binaries. And in the climate space, we are now being asked for society to transcend that binary lens as well to embrace the nuance. And my last thing I just wanted to mention was that sustainability is often presented to us as something we need to buy into or we need to work towards or we need to be part of by earning it. But sustainability is our birthright. And Aisha was saying it's walking. You don't think about it. Sustainability is our birthright and there's a lot of gatekeeping around it. And anything that is our birthright, like joy and love, there's gatekeeping around that too. Think about love Valentine's Day or Hollywood movies or you think about joy, you think you need to buy a vacation or to experience joys.

(00:39:40):

Any birthright, emotion value is gate keep. And I think that's the thing we're trying to help people understand right now is sustainability was always there. It was always within us. And that's always accessible.

Noor (00:39:53):

It's so interesting too because the things that you're listing out are things that are innate. They're things that are free. They're things that are literally inside of us. And it's like how have these stories tricked us into believing that they don't belong to us, that they are, they only exist outside of us. And that because it's like if you recognize, if you find out that love and joy and sustainability has been inside of you all along and how to wield that power, then what is the power that is unleashed

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:40:27):

Referring to something right now that I don't remember exactly who the author is, but when that power is unleashed, but also when you realize that your existence is dependent on the water, on air quality, on what you eat, of course you're going to defend it. And in communities where you rely on the river itself to get your drinking water in communities where you rely on not nature to get your meal, to get your clothes, to get your medicine, of course you're going to defend it. Because I promise you, if tomorrow the faucets in New York City stop working and people don't get clean water, they will fight for it. And it's so odd that we put communities that are saying that this is our right on this novel, far away indigenous, like a waste part of the world when in fact just like love and joy and sustainability is a birthright.

(00:41:40):

So is clean air, clean water, access to food and shelter. And that is all at risk. And that's where actually the human rights argument comes into climate and it's become such a important part. And the climate lawyers and the environmental litigation field has been, took a long time for them to catch up. But it's been really important because these are human rights and they are being violated right now by nation states, by corporations, by people that are actively putting what the air that you are going to breathe in the water you will drink and making it poison. It's being poisoned. And so there's both this work that I do and so many of us who are in this space, we depend on this utter love for the planet and for its people to keep going. And when you love something so much, you fight for it. And that's where the fight comes in. And that's where the defending of the water, the land and how it's used and resources and consumption and clothing all comes in because it's worth the fight. It's worth saving.

Noor Tagouri (00:43:00):

Can you define land defender and water defender and tell us how it is possible for everyone to be those things?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:43:12):

Actually, I can't define it. I think for different N nations it is different and that title is earned and it's given to you and you are made of a community's water protector or land protector. But it's not something you throw around either. Because land defense, especially in a world that property rights has created borders, it's created nation states. Being a land defender comes with standing up to military. In so many parts of the world, it means that people will try to steal the very thing that your ancestors' blood is merged with. But how can we all become land defenders and water protectors in our individual capacity? We do have that opportunity and we do have that responsibility. And to be a land defender, I think from the very small means planting seeds, everybody, me, what is one individual action that people can take to protect the environment?

(00:44:19):

And I'm like, plant a seed, touch the soil, touch some grass folks. And then other than that, stand in solidarity with the people. If you're in a area where land is occupied, stand in solidarity with them when they're trying to get that land back, there is a movement to try to get Lenape land back. There are

Noor (00:44:44):

Which is the land that we're on right now

Ayisha (00:44:45):

We're on right now. And you can support that land defense. There is a movement and there and our water, believe it or not, especially in Canada, a lot of the water is owned by corporations. It's owned by your Nestles, it's owned by other folks and it's not given acc. It's not, it's people don't have access to the water. And how do you get involved in water protection is you allow the commons, the waters to be managed by people.

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Noor Tagouri (00:45:18):

Thank you so much for sharing that. I often think about how, or Adam and I actually talk about this all the time, he'll say things like the earth will be fine without us. It's humanity that is on its way to extinct extinction if we continue these practices, this lifestyle because the earth in your words, Sophia has gone through so many deaths and rebirths and it will with or without us. And so I often think about that framing of the story. How do we get people to care? And it's it, and the answer that I think about is by getting them to care about themselves and how people, do we actually care about ourselves? Do we think, do we love ourselves? Do we think about our ge, the generations to come from our own lineage? And so how do you both meditate on that? And then a little sub-question to that is what role does art play in all of this?

Sophia (00:46:35):

Well, I would takye that one step further. I don't even think we need to love ourselves in order to move the movement forward or care ourselves. I think a lot of times that question is asked all the time, what's the one thing I could do to impact the environment? And I love your answer playing to the seed. I always say look within yourself and see what is disharmonious from within. If we're not, like our love for ourselves will be an evolution of ongoing process and there'll be ebbs and flows throughout the days. But the harmony within ourselves, that deep rooted foundation, if we're so in disharmony within our own bodies, our minds, our spirits, our souls, of course we're going to be disharmonious in the world. The entire reality, our nature, the state of it is a projection of, it's the, it's a temperature check mirroring exactly the human psyche of where we are, 

Noor: Especially since our actual physical bodies are also a part of nature.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:47:46):

And when the water is dirty, it shows up. People get sick. When the air is dirty, it shows up. People have asthma. Everything we're doing to planet and earth we're doing to our own bodies.

Sophia Li (00:47:58):

And I would even say everything we're doing to each other, we do to planet earth. And then the water is dirty and the air is polluted because our minds and spirits are polluted and trauma filled and dirty and we haven't done the healing from within. So then we would do it to each other. So then that means we do it to nature. It's all very interconnected. And I think a lot of times people are like, well, so let's actually have some statistics because I think a lot of people think that we're trying to fight the climate deniers of the world, but actually climate deniers in the US is less than 10%. And the US has the highest percentage of climate deniers. So to even try to touch these 7% of Americans, it's actually not worth our time. 70% of Americans, the majority of Americans are not climate deniers, but they're climate delays according to Yale's school of climate change. They, there's mis studies that have shown that people know that climate science is real. They don't deny that, but they delay it. They're like, we have lives to live. I have food to put on the table. I have a job. I have kids to feed. I, they cannot process it because it's almost too much to process.

(00:49:27):

And then I always compare moving through the climate crisis is moving through the grief cycle. So we've never been taught how to collectively grief. And right now we are going through a massive collective grieving cycle because we're going through the sixth mass extinction of our timeline. And if you've ever lost a loved one, you know that it's not like you forget that you lost a parent or a sibling or a loved one. You just have a acceptance with it. You live with that grief and it's ongoing. It's deeply part of your soul now. And just like that, there's seven emotions and stages that you go through in the grief cycle. And that's the same with the climate crisis. We have to work through these emotions and stages and cycles in order to come to this level of acceptance. And Ayisha was like, why wouldn't you defend something you love so much? And it's like a lot of us came into this space through fear, a lot of the Greta's of the world. It's like our world is on fire. It's a climate emergency. And whenever anything is emergency, your first reaction is fear, which we enter through fear, but we haven't transcended collectively past fear yet. So it's like what do we do with that fear? And

(00:50:43):

During, I think the pandemic is a good analogy because when Covid first started, there was a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of fears, unknowns. We went into lockdown, we started in fear and we were fighting each other for toilet paper because we were like, I just need to survive and I need toilet paper. And then we transcended that fear into mutual aid, into love and gratitude for our first responders into organizing into depending on the people into community fridges and all of this. We transcended into emotions that were actually sustainable for our communities. We depended on ourselves. And we haven't done that with the climate crisis as a whole. Climate crisis is harder because it's way more to grapple and grasp and understand, but we need collective grieving. And to move through this stage cycle,

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:51:37):

I have first a response to what you were saying, Sophia, people came into this space in fear. And I would say it was a strategic and probably necessary because one, fear sells, and two, it was needed by two to push political will. Political will, because the native communities for so long, see, before the word climate crisis was even mainstream or climate activism was mainstream. People were doing it for hundreds of years and they were investing in love and investing in each other. But it wasn't sexy, it wasn't selling. So I, looking back in retrospect, it was maybe one, it was a way to get inside the doors, but now we really need to think intentionally about how we propagate our work. But to what you said earlier about the planet will do fine without us, I think that's also a misnomer that we are told to believe. So we have apathy

(00:52:47):

And it, it comes more from the global north than it does from the global south because no, the planet needs us actually just squirrels pick up nuts that they eat and then they leave the seed behind that grows trees. Humans are essential to keeping biodiversity alive. Humans are essential to keeping nature alive. When you understand the variety of different fruits and vegetables, you can grow multiple crops. You're not just led left with one version of an apple or one version of an orange or one version of a lentil. And then in that developing and propagating the seeds and the soil, you can create ecosystems and food systems that allow nutrients. And the agricultural crisis is a mass part of the climate crisis, as is a biodiversity crisis. So a country like mine, after it goes through flooding, it has an economic collapse. The economic collapse could have been subdued a little had.

(00:53:54):

We had multiple versions of grain, multiple versions of tomatoes, multiple seeds that could grow in different environments, but we didn't. But it's mono culture and it's happening in India. That's what's happening in China, that's what's happening in Pakistan. It's happening in the United States as well. So actually the planet needs us. And that's where the responsibility comes into it too, because when you're told you're insignificant, then you're like, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter, but it needs to be a shift of like, no, you're not insignificant. In fact, this is something that my elders taught me. And Sophia, you were mentioning it earlier too. The planet has a symbiotic relationship with humans. Just like in the Galapagos Islands. There's different finches that grow with different beaks. It as a result of being in a very specific habitat, humans evolve for their very specific habitats. They are meant to be caretakers of those habitats.

(00:54:55):

In fact, that's another layer I'll add to this meta conversation. Mass migration and the refugee crisis is expanding because of the climate crisis. In fact, this last year, 2022, we had more refugees in the world due to climate, due to natural disasters than we ever had of war. So when humans are removed from their natural habitats, not only do they feel the pain, the land suffers as well. It is lost, it's guardian, it's lost its harbors in air. A, and I'll throw in another thing, Palestine, it's undergoing an occupation right now. In that process, the olive trees are being destroyed. The variety of olive trees are being destroyed. The environment has experienced a loss, not just from the obvious war, but also formerly a hundred years ago, people were taking care of those trees, they were propagating them, the environment was thriving, the air quality was better, the soil quality was better, the food was more nutritious. So this really is a meta crisis of so many different layers. And we have a responsibility to it. And we have a responsibility to the kids that come after us. But we belong here. We belong on planet earth. There's no other planet that has this life. This is in fact our home. And it's made for us and it lives within us, and we come from it.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:33):

Thank you so much. Thank you for schooling me

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:56:36):

No,

Noor Tagouri (00:56:37):

I am. And it is actually such an honor to learn from you and to learn from yourself. And I come to this conversation as somebody who literally, sincerely asks these questions. Cause I feel them for myself too. And I'm learning so much about reframing the story for my own involvement in making this. And I think as somebody who is currently really in the trenches of my own spiritual journey, which is what I has been taking up a lot of my time and my energy right now, and in the best of ways as a human experience welcomes learning more and more how the climate journey is spiritual, is a spiritual one. And that we're not here to, I think, see the results of all the seeds that we plant, but we still have to plant them in that spirit. I would love to know what is a question that you both are asking yourselves right now?

(00:58:01):

Sophia, my journalist sister.

Sophia (00:58:07):

A question I'm asking myself is, can we collectively grieve without a common enemy? So I think that at least in American society, the times that we have been able to collectively grieve. If you look at nine 11, we came together bipartisan, but there had to be a common enemy. You talk about this a lot during Covid. We came together, but there had to be a common enemy. That was China. I was in China during when they first went into lockdown. So it's China. And so with the climate crisis, can we collectively grieve without pointing the finger at anyone at another society, without saying it's your fault, without bringing the ego in of superiority and just taking responsibility and moving through it ourselves. That's a question I'm asking ourselves. Who is going to be the next common enemy? And can we do it without one?

Noor (00:59:09):

Yeah. Are we, because we are smart enough to

(00:59:12):

Yeah, yeah. We have the ability to. Yes. Yes.

Sophia (00:59:14):

And politically and can our politicians, can we, NA media media's a huge role in this. Can we all own that narrative? Yeah. Take responsibility to not pinpoint someone as a comment.

Noor (00:59:24):

Well, I think that also, that kind of comes back to what you were saying about ego in the very beginning of this and the role that ego plays in all in the climate crisis. And almost sometimes I find myself asking, how did it get so bad so fast? How did we get to this place where it seems, it feels like there's just so much evil has been done. How did we get to this place? And I feel like because ego is consuming or can be easily manipulated or can even trick ourselves, can convince people in power that they are doing the right thing, even though their definition of the right thing for themselves becomes so limiting and potentially harmful. So all that Sam sitting with, I appreciate you presenting that question because that's feels like a continuation of the bigger question of why are we where we're at right now?

(01:00:32):

Ayisha. Do you have a question you're asking yourself these days?

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:00:34):

Yeah, it's kind of very personal. I've kind of stumbled into being known. And one question I'm asking myself is how not to recreate a personality cult? How not. And for myself too, because that's protection. I cannot save the planet, let alone people, let alone even a portion. And I don't want anyone else to think that they have to be another me. In fact, we need everyone. And living in America, living in a society that wants personality cults, that wants individuals that they can say, thank you for doing the work. I'm going to keep living my life.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:38):

Ooh, it just gave me chills.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:01:40):

We need less of that. And so that's one question I'm asking myself. And that means for me, I have to be very articulate and intentionally push against it because on the other end, I am so extremely privileged to have it and somebody's listening to my voice. And so how will I use it to do work projects, tangible, measurable outcomes that will help my communities? And yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:02:21):

Can I share something personal with you

(01:02:23):

On that reflection?

(01:02:24):

Cause I can see how that it can mess with you at, because I definitely feel like I came into being a public figure or whatever at a very young age. And when I didn't have a fully developed brain, but I had a lot of passion and I thought I knew exactly what I wanted and that there was such a lack of representation at the time that I felt like the weight of so much on me that I did things or I took on things that, it wasn't for me, but it was always the adults around me would be like, well, who else is going to do this? Who else is going to do this? Well, who else is going to do this? And I honor so much that you're asking this question when you are and how you are. Because sometimes, and this is very, very personal and very spiritual, and I talk about this with Adam a lot, and sometimes I wonder if it you, this responsibility comes on, I'll say, I'll speak personally. It makes me uncomfortable to do this, but I will.

(01:03:38):

But sometimes I'm like, did I get this responsibility? Because I didn't really want that. I really wanted to tell stories, but I never wanted to be the story. And of course, things happen the way that they do. And you have to use the opportunity in the way that that feels best. But it takes time to adjust how you do that. And that's why before we were getting on, before we started recording, I told you my goal in using social media is to get people off social media and to start gathering and to start having people see people as individuals and as human beings who all have their own individual story and who have their own ways of trying to be of service. And I think that I continuously have been coming back to the spirit of service and what it means to be of service to ourselves, to our immediate circles, to the community, and then to the broader message and story.

(01:04:44):

And I think that I see that you are doing that so clearly with Polluters Out and with the Climate University. And just in the way that you're char, I can hear it in your voice, Ayisha, you're not speaking on your own behalf. Okay? You are speaking on behalf of your parents and your grandparents and the elders around you and the land itself. And I can feel the weight and responsibility that you're putting on yourself. It's really big and it's really scary. And sometimes it'll feel like overwhelming because people make it seem like it's all on you, but it's also not. And every single time you use your voice and you speak to these experiences and you share these stories, and you share these concerns and you echo the message of planting a seed, that your words are also the seed and that you're planting them over and over and over again.

(01:05:45):

And that we all got you. Oh God. And they're something I have been thinking about too, as I'm on my own spiritual journey and asking bigger questions around faith and identity and hijab and all this stuff. And I'm just like, it's not living in the same world that I was living in 10 years ago. There are so many people who are doing amazing work now. We've inspired, we've created spaces, we've paved path. It's not all on us individually, but because those seeds have been planted, you almost have to trust that they bloom on their own. And that even though this responsibility has fallen on you and the attention has fallen on you, you will never see even remotely close to the full picture of all of the harvest that exists in your trails. But it exists. It does. And I know that because I've heard Sophia talk about you in this way before too. And

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:06:51):

This is becoming an Ayisha fan fan session

Noor Tagouri (01:06:55):

It's more of it's not Ayisha as an individual though. It's, it's what you represent. It's what you represent. And I love this Maya Angelo quote that I come as one, but I stand as 10,000. And we're talking about the 10,000. And I want you to feel lightness in that because you don't are not one. And we see you as not one. But right now, sometimes you get a little bit more attention and so good. When it's uncomfortable, it's good. Cause it makes you interrogate and interrogate and don't ever get comfortable in it. It's okay to enjoy it. It's okay to have these positive experiences with it, but you don't ever have to get comfortable because, and that's why this whole conversation around climate started with ego. And this is, it's a forever ongoing human test. This ego and our dance with ego. And maybe it's not about vilifying it and making it an enemy, but making it a witness to our process so that when we engage with our own ego, out of curiosity, it's out of asking questions rather than hating it and wanting to rip it out of ourselves and be like, look at how evil you've been.

(01:08:03):

But instead be like, what are you trying to show me? Yeah. What limitations are you trying to show me so that I can create more space to get the work done? Because the space exists. Clean water, air, all of these things that we know when we feel are our right. They exist. Yes, they're possible. Yeah. It's just a matter of us creating the space to be able to attain it. Yeah.

Sophia (01:08:25):

And can I just say Ayisha, that the cult of personality trope is you can tell that you are of service to the movement. Because usually when people have these moments where they're thrust into the spotlight, the next step is like, okay, what am I going to do next? And you're always coming to this conversation of what does the movement need to be next? And that's the difference, is you shouldn't feel shame or guilt. You put in so much work, you've done so much service. So there shouldn't be any other motion except for this is just more momentum to continue my work and this work of everyone.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:09:10):

Yeah. There was the story I was reading earlier and earlier, as in two years ago, but during a time in Rome, when the village ran out of oil for their lamps, what they did was they set to fire bodies to have light And that analogy sometimes feels very much like the personalities cults that we use for any movement, not just climate. We cannot keep setting light to people or setting them on fire for light because we need to, wow, really, really not only harness it, cultivate it, bring it in a way that is beautiful, but not at the expense of people. So even the people that are in these individual personality cults, it's a loss on, it's setting them on fire as well. And that is not sustainable. It's going to come to an end. People are burning out. That is burning out. So I appreciate both of your advice so much as people that I look up to, especially you, Nora, because I think I was 17 when I first heard your name and your story. And Sophia, I know within the community just your name comes and your integrity proceeds your name. But I really appreciate both of your advice because those of us that are in the space, I really think that we also need to create families and systems where 10 years from now, 15 years from now, we're still in community, we're still talking to each other. We have to be the examples of sustainable relationships as well before we can preach it out to the rest of the world. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:16):

Wow. I love that. I love that. So interesting how it comes back to sustainable relationships and sustain our own human sustainability so that we can continue and carry on in the work. And what a beautiful and terrifying story in reference, I've never visualized burning out as it's setting someone on fire and using them as light. And I want to bring this back to the concept, the question of art. I know I show you're a poet and I come from that position as well. Yeah. And it's funny because I like my almost ability to write poetry comes out of a place of desperation

(01:11:57):

When I need it the most.

(01:11:58):

And I wonder how we can use our art as like, can the art be the oil? Can the art be the light? And can that, because the art exists outside of self too. And what is your relationship with poetry and art? How is it giving you the sustainability that you need to continue this work?

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:12:23):

Yeah. Thanks for asking. I also turn to writing out of desperation. One also because everybody in my family, one way or another is an orator. Is a storyteller, although is such a beautiful, beautiful language. It's actually a combination of Arabic and Farsi. So it has so many lovely anecdotes and ways of saying things, but o on art and how art is necessary. There's this beautiful poem, it's called Revolutionary letter number four, and it goes something along the lines of left alone to themselves. People create art, they build. And in an ideal world, I am. And in the future, and this is one of my hopes, if we can get our basic necessity met, the human species can create so much. And on the other hand of what is it at risk, all that we've created from the [inaudible] to the Bibles that we read, to the art that we create, to the things that we write.

(01:13:41):

What if there's nobody on the other end to witness that? How unfortunate, how big of a loss will it be? Because we pass memory down through objects. We pass memory down through art. We pass our spirits down through these things. And human beings, our beauty is in our ability to be observers. Our beauty in our ability to take what we see and imagine and what if there's nobody on the other end to receive that, to see these structures, these buildings in New York City, hundreds of stories tall. What was all this for? And that's why art is so important. It edges a memory. It leaves a document. It shows that we were here and we tried in our little worlds, in the bigger space, from a recipe that you get from your mom to a little gift that somebody gives you to the painting you drew as a kid in fifth grade, we need them just to have a human experience, a beautiful experience. It makes life worth living.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:06):

While you were saying that I was closing my eyes, I was trying to picture what that world would look like. And it was was a sadness that felt different. It was like a sadness that didn't only belong to me. It was a collective sadness. And maybe the potential of that future is the collective enemy. Maybe it's the idea of living in a world where our art isn't witnessed by future generations. Our existence, our trace isn't witnessed. And that feels like something everyone should be able to get by.

Sophia (01:15:42):

Yeah. I think that one of the things that has been robbed of us most right now is this, is that most humans love being futurists. I think any res storyteller, every art creator, they are a futurist in essentially because they're creating and they're building what a different future could look like that they would want to live in.

(01:16:03):

That's why you make art for present and future generations. And it's being robbed of us because also through this climate lens that our future is going to be going to be run by ais and robots and this zoom and gloom where the entire world has burned down, or it's like the day after tomorrow or the last of us. It's like this, that is the future that's being portrayed now. And actually futurism and being futurist was the most fundamental part of being human. And that's actually what united us the most is collectively creating for a better future. And I just think that if we can tap into, we love being futurist. We love that radical imagination. We love creating art because that art is a fiscal representation of our consciousness and subconsciousness and the pinpoint that we are living right now. There's so much to fight for and to love for.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:11):

Yeah. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:17:13):

Thank you both so much. The way that we wrap our conversations is a fill in the blank. So there's this statement, if you really knew me, you would know. You can do one, you can do two, you can do three. You can start.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:35):

I'm very, very clumsy. It's just chaos. Everything's broken,

Noor Tagouri (01:17:43):

But not the earth.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:43):

Not the earth. But yeah, there's like a toothpaste stain on my shirt and my shoes are like, there's a hole in my song. They're just, I'm very,

Noor Tagouri (01:17:52):

You have a scratched retina.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:54):

Yeah, I have a scratched retina. My laptop is broken. Oh my God. Yeah. My phone is broken. It's just, it's, yeah. I

Noor Tagouri (01:18:04):

I love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:06):

No problem,

Noor Tagouri (01:18:06):

Sophia. If you really knew me,

Sophia (01:18:10):

Ooh. Okay. If you really knew me, you would know. This isn't my first life.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:18):

Ooh,

Noor Tagouri (01:18:20):

I love that. Wow. That's so beautiful. Thank you both so much for your time, for your wisdom, for your stories, for your questions, for your corrections, for your reframes, for your schooling, and thank you for your service. Appreciate you both. Thank you.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:41):

Thank you, Noor.

POST INTERVIEW BEFORE PHONE RECORDING:

After this interview we continued the conversation on the role of religion and spirituality in the climate crisis. I recorded some of it on my phone because it was just too good. Hope you collect some gems. Thank you so much for listening.

PART 2 (FILE 2):

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01):

Young people are experiencing more climate anxiety now than before. And the reason why it is more prevalent in the younger generations is because when you are born, you are more closer to life. And the closer you are to life, the closer you are to the emotions of life and the further you get. And so it has to be a conscious, spiritual reevaluation, replenishing of your commitment. And then the other thing is all energy. Energy doesn't disappear. It stays. And there's a lot of loss happening in the biodiversity in the animal kingdom. And that pain of the animals doesn't just dissipate either. The cries of a mother whale after losing her child is not just gone. It reverberates and it stays here. And it appears in humans, in like young people, in children where we're all feeling this anxious, this kind of depression, that our home is in danger. And it's because our animal brethren and our animal family is experiencing massive, massive destruction. And then that's the other thing about reciprocity. It's not just about the seed that you plant and the water you consume. It's also about the pain that you cause, and it's showing up in climate anxiety and the feeling of responsibility and also this pain that the younger generations are in. And that really needs to be acknowledged.

Sophia Li (01:52):

Can I take that one step further? We're also, right now, in the entire timeline of humanity, we feel the least religious than we ever felt on a collective level. And when religion and spirituality is taken off out of the upbringings and foundations of young people don't, they're not also given the tools to reconnect the source. So when we feel this pain, we use source and as a way to release, we use source as a way to, because source can transmute energy and change it into action, change it into love, and to change it in different ways. But if you don't have that tool, if you don't even know that's accessible to have, you're not even accessible to source. And young youth around the world aren't giving these tools anymore, whether from a spiritual, religious, or any sort of lens, then it just stays stagnant. It just stays as a grease film layer on top of human humanity. And also, I feel like that's also the case too, is that we're not giving the right tools anymore from that lens to process.

Ayisha Siddiqa (02:56):

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the other danger of spirituality, religion being used for the destruction of the planet. And people, and it's just, we're

Sophia Li (03:09):

Mimicking the same hierarchical structures.

Noor Tagouri (03:19):

But it feels like for, you

Noor Tagouri (03:22):

Mentioned that Islam was a part of how you got into this because of, what was the verse again?

Ayisha Siddiqa (03:32):

It's like, which one of your Lord's provisions will you deny?

Noor Tagouri (03:35):

That's my favorite surah too. Surah al Rahman. Yeah.

Ayisha Siddiqa (03:39):

And when you take without thought about where it's coming from, when you don't, aren't grateful for everything that you have, you deny the provisions as in it's not refusal, refusal as in denying. You're denying that they were given to you, that they were given as gifts, and you're denying taking care of them.

Noor Tagouri (04:08):

That's also a complete reframe because the way that the chapter goes is that verse is repeated over and over, and every other verse is a list of created creations that were given to the earth. But this is such a beautiful approach to thinking about it, because it's not which of them will you deny? Will you deny the existence of the bees? But will you deny their right to exist by harming them too? Yeah.

Ayisha Siddiqa (04:32):

And every action that we take has a consequence. And you also, just like we were talking about earlier, you never know how much harvest will come out, but you don't know how much damage you can do too. And apathy allows you to not think about it. We don't think about what took for that thing to end up on our supermarket, what took for those clothes to end up on our body in the shop. And that's slow, and it requires deep thinking and there's no money in it. And it's just like it's mental work, but we kind of avoid doing it because we want to do everything else that will give us obvious accolades, tick marks, titles. But no, this is what makes a difference, because frankly, what gifts are we leaving our children? It's a good ancestors question, right? Yeah.

OUTRO: 

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS SOPHIA LI AND AYISHA SIDDIQA. 

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.