(Transcript) Franklin Sirmans and Jason Seife on Critique as Collaboration, The Cultural Responsibility of Museums, Becoming Friends with Your Critics, and Colorblindness as an Artist

Franklin Sirmans and Jason Seife on Critique as Collaboration, The Cultural Responsibility of Museums, Becoming Friends with Your Critics, and Colorblindness as an Artist

3, 2, 1...

LIVE from Miami, AYS and Podcast Noor is back with another panel, between an artist and an art critic and curator; and we're here to talk critique as collaboration.

When I asked two previous Podcast Noor guests, both painter Jordan Casteel, and former gallery director Sarah Hoover who I need to sit down with in Miami, they both enthusiastically responded with the same name: Franklin Sirmans.

Franklin Sirmans is an art critic, a writer, a curator - and he's also the *director* of one of the coolest art museums in the country: Miami's Pérez Art Museum, also known as PAMM. And since this storytelling session would be taking place at PAMM, I asked Franklin if he would be down to be in conversation with one of the artists showing at the museum, someone he thinks would be great for our Podcast Noor listeners. He responded without hesitation: Jason Seife. 

Jason Seife is an interdisciplinary Miami-based artist, effortlessly weaving his beloved Cuban and Syrian heritage into the intersection of Fine Arts and Graphic Design. He's worked with some of the largest names in the music business including Kanye West, Pharrell Wiliams, Big Sean, and Nicki Minaj, designing everything from album artwork to jewelry to merchandise. In his newest body of work, titled "Coming to Fruition" Jason references old Persian carpets, centering his Middle Eastern heritage and the intricate details found in mosques and traditional Islamic art.  

Noor Tagouri:

Wow, we made it to Miami. This conversation, this interview is so special. Franklin, we shared with you that one of my best friends, Jordan Casteel, is the one who, when I asked her, I was like, who do I need to talk to you in Miami? You were the name that came to mind. And I just started doing a deep dive into your work and the way that you show up and the way that you are of service to not only the community here, but the art community at large is so beautiful and profound. And so I really love this idea of just having a push and pull between having a conversation with a director, curator, art critic, and the artist himself. And so we love that. So when we asked you who you think would be best for, okay, Jason Seife was what came to mind, and it just felt so perfect. And Jason, you are a Syrian Cuban artist who's based here in Miami who does different mediums, but painting is your forte. And you're actually preparing for a show that's going to be here at the Perez Art Museum in Miami

(02:43):

In May. So we're celebrating that process for you. And so the way we kick off our conversations is by asking, how is your heart? So I want to ask you that first Franklin and then Jason, take over. Sure. Let's get started.

Franklin Sirmans (02:58):

It's strong now is beautiful to be in conversation with you and the breadth of what you talk about as far as your relationship to media and your relationship to his culture is super interesting to me. So immediately when I figured that out, and then the Jordan connection is just too good. So really happy to be here. I mean, Jordan is, we had Jordan here three weeks ago or something like that. And she just brought, when you talk about heart, she brought all of her heart to the experience. And of course I thought of Jason immediately because in many ways, Miami, but in many ways not Miami. So the last place we saw each other was actually at an art fair in Dubai. And knowing the exhibition is coming up, and one of the things that I've been trying to feel my way through, actually the press releases, Jason has this really interesting relationship to the past in terms of where the foundation of the subject matter often comes from in his art, but super in the present in ways that I can't even really articulate because I'm not as versed in web three as I should be, or even just in new technology.

(04:19):

I just made it perfect to be,

Jason Seife (04:21):

Yeah, I mean, right Jason. I mean, I feel you asked me how's my heart? I mean, it feels extra, extra great right now, having this conversation with two people that I am a fan equally. Oops, sorry. Yeah. Two people that I'm equally a fan of, Franklin, we've learned, we've spoken so much, but we haven't sat down in a conversation like this. So I'm excited about that. Nor specifically, I mean, I've been following your work for some time now, so to hear that you're interested in having a conversation with myself in Franklin was such a blessing for me to be able to speak about. More specifically on your question, I think where is my heart? I think it's such a important time right now. I'm in the fourth quarter of this exhibition that I've been working on for well over a year. And I think the heart quite literally is a muscle.

(05:10):

And sometimes we put it through stress. And I think that I've learned through time, one of the things that helps me get through those rougher patches or when I'm feeling kind of high anxiety or stresses, knowing that there will be this phase after where I'll be able to recuperate from this and come back stronger. So I kind of do look at it, quite frankly, a muscle that I'm working out. And whenever I'm going through, whether it's in work or in relationships or in family life or something that I'm going through a rough patch or a patch where I'm kind of high intensity, I keep that. I try to zoom out and look at the bigger picture and understand that, okay, this is happening and I'll be able to get stronger from this and be able to enjoy these kind of different lulls that happen within my life, whether it be in work or in personal aspects. So right now it feels full, it feels amazing, but preparing myself for kind of what's to come and what I have left to finish so that Franklin's happy with what I have to show from. No, he's such a great supporter. So I know he'll be happy with whatever I come up with, but I'm very excited about it.

Noor Tagouri (06:19):

I want to touch on the heart thing. Cause you described it so beautifully and people answer that question differently, ev every time. And that's why I love asking it. Sure. But it was funny because my 12 year old brother was helping you prepare for this interview, and he asked me to ask you guys to introduce each other. And when I asked you how your heart was, you literally gave the introduction for Jason and then Jason, you

Jason Seife (06:41):

And I actually spoke about my heart. I'll rude me. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just, cause I mean,

Noor Tagouri (06:46):

You spoke about your heart.

Jason Seife (06:47):

Sure. Support of Franklin. Of course.

Noor Tagouri (06:49):

And how would you introduce Franklin?

Jason Seife (06:49):

I'm, I'm Fanboying for Franklin, right? Because it's he, he's such a, there's nobody that I speak to about the exhibition that isn't like, oh, that Franklin's me. You know what I mean? Franklin is so well known. And we just ran into each other in Dubai not knowing that we're both there. And I had just, the first thing I told him, I was I just talking about you to someone. I didn't know he was there, but I was talking to Sonny, who's a director at a gallery in Dubai, and while I was telling her about the show and she's like, oh, I love Franklin. He's so, he's so admired for what he does. And to be able to be in a position where we can work together in an equal, admire, admire, I don't know exact word, but it's so great to meet people that you look up to and that you respect.

(07:33):

And to be able to have a relationship where you can work together, where it's not just me being like, I love what you do, that's so great, and then move on. It's such a driving force in my work to be able to collaborate and learn more about Franklin and have him learn more about my work outside of just the peripheral of the art world and the understanding of what the museum is and how important him being the director of it is. So I don't know if I even answered your question fully there, but yeah, it's just honored to be able to have people care about me that I care about in that light. So it's really cool.

Noor Tagouri (08:10):

I love that you said care about me because that people admire your work. But I love that it's very clear here that we are all very aware of the human behind the art. And I think that that's really important because you bring up the work. There's two things. The way that you talked about strengthening your heart as a muscle and the way that you talk about collaboration. And both of you are very passionate about this concept of collaboration. But I feel like what I see here is almost a collaboration of the hearts of understanding that we are here to be of service to do something that is greater than us. And I think Franklin, you've been able to do that so beautifully with this museum and you can feel it in every corner of it. And so I would love to check in with you all about how you feel about the term collaboration now and the way that you see most people approach it and the way that that's helped you hone how you personally approach it. Because I think that the term collaboration and the concept of collaboration is tossed around a lot, but in the most literal sense, a collaboration is one that transcends just like a logo plus a logo.

Jason Seife (09:20):

Sure. I mean, I'll just give you 2 cents on and would love to hear Franklin's take. I think the best collaborations are the ones that come organically, the ones that kind of just formulate in a conversation and without the term of coming together to push a certain product or push a certain idea. I think every, I've been in different sorts of the term collaboration, like you said, it's used in a lot of different means. And sometimes it like the more it's used, the more watered watered down it becomes. And I feel like my approach is always just working with people who inspire me and having that approach. And then if it falls into the term of a collaboration or it falls into the term of maybe I am a fan of Franklin, what he does, and he's able to put me in contact with someone who can work a little bit better with me directly, then I could with him on a certain project.

(10:14):

That idea of collaboration as to one-on-one can look like a lot of different things, whether it's just being a connector and putting people together in the right circumstances or in just actually collaborating. I personally love to just be around people that inspire me and take in as much as I can while I'm in their presence. And to me that's collaborative, even if it's not like, Hey, we worked on this and this thing, and sometimes I'll have a more genuine organic inspiration for a project or for my life in general from those interactions than I would on something that I specifically sat down with a certain person or branch or whatever to collaborate on a product or artwork or whatever. That is mean. Think that that's my approach to it is just kind of organically if I'm interested in something, obviously this conversation right now is a collaboration speaking on certain aspects together. And my take on it is, oh, it's just kind of what makes sense or what feels right. And then that term kind of coming second to that. But thank you. Thank you.

Franklin Sirmans (11:23):

I mean, it's interesting from the context of, I think about the word curate, right? Cause to take care of the art, but we don't necessarily put the person in that conversation all the time. And so Maritza Lacayo, who's working on the exhibition with Jason, they have a certain incredible collaborative process. And I know you can hear it in the way that Jason speaks about his relationship to working with other people as an artist. But I know that curator specifically really well. And that's the way that she goes about the process always. So I come from that place where it is, we work in contemporary, we work in the moment we work with artists. And that is often the overwhelming kind of gist of partnership or of collaboration. It's not just about the art given. I also feel like in this moment, I find myself prefacing the word collaboration with meaningful a lot more often than I perhaps would have some time ago. In recognition of what Jason mentioned in terms of the frequency with which we hear the word too. I think there is collaboration, there is partnership. And at the end of the day, is it meaningful? And that's what I'm just trying to get to. I don't know. I feel like there lot of, it's almost like the word community in the moment. We use it a lot. We sometimes don't think about the depth of what that could mean. And I think collaboration at least puts us in the space of where we should be.

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Noor Tagouri (13:14):

I want to zoom out a little bit because I appreciate you establishing that. And so you had mentioned collaboration in relationship to curation, but also one of the things that you do and that you've done is critique. And my teammate Adam mentioned earlier that when an artist creates a piece of art, it's often critiquing something in the world, a message in the world. There's something that's behind it. And so how do you approach critiquing a body of work that is also critiquing something that's happening in society? I often almost have a hard time reading when people criticize art in a way that is very specific to the technicality or the color. Or sometimes I'm just like, maybe it just wasn't for you. But it's so clear that somebody has literally poured their heart and soul into this. And oftentimes, I think even today we see how that can impact the artist directly. So how do you carry that responsibility or how do you hope that people will?

Franklin Sirmans (14:24):

This is why I think I gravitated towards contemporaries is cause there is that collaborative process. Cause it is about that sort of relationship. The idea of critique is collaborative. The idea of critique is that's what takes us to the next level. That's what allows for us to get the most out of it if we working in the museum. So get to work with, I don't know, almost 200 people if we're fully open and we're talking about all of the contracted people that make this place go. And there are meaningful ways in which we interact all across the board. Granted, when working with a curator and an artist, it's even more emphasized. But I think what we're trying to do, and this is where it goes back to, I guess words like collaboration, are about elevating a discourse or about doing something that is helpful for not only oneself, but others.

(15:26):

And the only way to get there is to criticize a little bit is to, I think, have an open and healthy conversation where ideas are shared and we learn from that. To me, that's the only reason why to work in a museum in the space of it in a kind of historical sense, is that it's what one of the few places, especially here in Miami where we come together, no, well, there is a mass public transportation, but it's not quite the same. But only sure for better or worse doesn't affect everyone parks, even as places of communal gathering, I'd say is still somewhat nascent. So the museum can filled this role as being a place where different people can come together and experience each other. And the only way we create a better space for that is to have a diversity of opinion, which is the essence of collaboration in some way and critique.

Noor Tagouri (16:26):

Yeah. So Jason, when you are receiving critique, do you have a list of questions or things that it has to go through before you internalize it so that it's coming from the right place?

Jason Seife (16:38):

Yeah, I mean, ideally I would, but I feel like as I'm still a human at the end of the day, and my work is very personal to me, and it takes a long time. And that doesn't mean that it's more important than it work that didn't. But because of the fact that it takes a long time, I spend a lot of time with it. So off of that alone, it becomes a little bit more hard to let go of or hard to put it out into the world and have it be perceived as something that maybe I didn't intend for it to be perceived. But I think frankly made a great point. Cause I don't know if you even meant to make this in the way that you structure the two questions, but we spoke about collaboration and community, and I think that critique is really in line with that because that's one of the most important aspects of a good collaboration, is to be able to receive feedback from someone and be able to channel it in a way that's positive.

(17:24):

Sometimes certain art critics or critics in general can come from a place of, if it's a work that's kind of too well known or accepted too much, they're going to come from a place of, okay, why don't I like this? Because it's so, well, it's accepted. And then there's other critiques who come from a place of real genuine interest in the work and see the potential in it, but see where the artist is failing. So specifically, I had a really good, it wasn't a critique, but it was a long kind of almost therapy session with a writer named Val Maha Luci, who's an British Iranian curator. And he wrote at length about a recent exhibition I did. And we really had these two to three hour zoom meetings over a course of three different weeks where we really spoke about the work. And him questioning me on certain aspects of the work made me realize things that I wasn't even realizing in my approach and how I work and the materialization and certain aspects of my work, which if I stopped myself or pushed away from this kind of questioning, I would've never opened myself up to it.

(18:35):

So that is collaboration in superior's form. And I think that critiques are very important for us as an artist to be able to shed this ego that we have because we make our work so important to us and be able to see it from another person's lens. But again, there has to be that respect because if I don't respect your opinion or your work, then it's going to be a lot easier for me to hear something I don't like and be like, oh, it's just because of Soandso and this and that. So it's a two-part aspect of the critique and the artist being accept the open to it. I think it comes from that.

Franklin Sirmans (19:10):

Yes, yes. Makes sense. Can you remind me to keep it in that arena? I mean, you remind me of trying to come into one's own and to find one's own voice. Very early in my career, I worked as primarily as a writer and as a critic. And I remember very distinctly now that you talk about this relationship, criticizing the work of two artists who I just admire the heck out of. And for a moment walking around kind of scared, didn't want to see them, I published this little piece and was sure critical of the work. And I'm just so happy to say at this point, one of them is my best friend and the other one is an artist who's in the collection here. And it allowed for us to then have a relationship that was so much deeper and so much more meaningful because of what you just said. Yeah, I had an opinion. They respected the opinion. It was based off of a foundation that involved some rigor. It was not baseless just talking. It had ideas behind it. And so it created a space for an ongoing commitment to each other as human beings that came out of that experience. And I never really thought about that

Jason Seife (20:32):

As, yeah, no, it comes from that, what I talked about before, which is that place of caring, right? Yeah. You cared about them as people and you cared about them in their work, and that's why they were open to it and were able to take that. My first critic was my mom, you know what I mean? Growing up, I would, I'd make a drawing or something and she would see it. And I used to always do this thing where I would to draw at night. So at this point, I'm in elementary school, middle. I fell in love with art at a really young age, and it was just portraiture or something, doing a drawing of my grandmother or someone. And then I would believe it in, for instance, in the table or something in the living room for her to see the next morning before she'd go to work. And then she would give me like, oh, it's good, but why does it look a little bit crossed? Or Why is this? And I would take it so I'd be so frustrated at that moment, but I would make the change and it would look so much better. And this is a very basic version of critique, but it was child,

Noor Tagouri (21:28):

She's taking your work seriously and she's actually giving you feedback. I feel like that's so important because then, I mean even even having this memory all these years later, it was loving. It was

Jason Seife (21:38):

Because she still tries to do it. So this day, but no, now it's a little bit harder. Yeah, she'll try to find something, but she'll just be like, oh, is it supposed to be the, it's a little bit leaning on this. She'll try. She'll jokingly do it now because it was such a known thing, but it made me from a very young age understand that someone's important to see your work from another set of eyes, whether it's music, whether it's whatever. Sometimes you need to step away from it and kind of look at it again with a fresher set of eyes or ears or whatever. And being able to have someone else look at something you're working on and give you their opinion on it or where they see it can be stronger or changed is important in no matter what way we're looking at that. Whether it's something as basic as a parent who's telling you what can be better or someone as esteemed as Franklin,

Noor Tagouri (22:36):

I love this idea of critique as collaboration because I don't think that you usually see those two concepts put together, but I think as a foundation in the way that we receive art with, I said earlier in the question, the responsibility of it. Sure. Because I think that even the way that you all are talking about it, it's still a form of kindness. It's still from a loving place. It's not to tear someone down. And I think that when you get enough critique, you know can sense when it's coming from a place of somebody just trying to hurt you or just trying to attack you or whatever happens on the internet, and someone who is actually yearning to connect further with the body of work that you've presented and wants to ask you questions or wants to share something with you. The fact that you had three conversations with the art critic who was talking about your work, and you were constantly, they were coming back to you with questions.

(23:35):

I mean, to me that feels like the approach that, it's kind of like when people write a review of an album moments after it comes out, and you haven't even been able to sit with the music, you haven't been able to study the lyrics, you haven't been able to see how it feels when you're listening to it in the car versus listening to it at home. So there is this deep level intentionality. So thank you for sharing that. I mean, I know that's a very fresh take. Yeah. Jason, I would love to know what is a question you are asking yourself these days?

Jason Seife (24:06):

A lot of questions. I think right now at where I am in my life in context of that, and I refer to the exhibition a lot, but because it's such a large part of my life, in such a large part of the last year and a half of my life, I look at where, what does internal happiness look like? And I don't even know if that's a phrase that makes sense, but the way I define it with me is what does happiness look like or satisfaction look like outside of my work, outside of my personal life, outside of friendships, relationships, how do I find that sense of being in a kind of way to keep it, what's the word I'm for people that are listening, doing a me sign of a median, a steady, it looks like an equilibrium, like a steady path of that, because my life is very much working towards an exhibition.

(25:15):

And then there's that moment where I'm like, it's all that's coming to fruition. Quite literally the name of the exhibition is coming to fruition, and then there's like that exhale after where it's done, and I try to force myself to enjoy it. But the way I'm wired, I'm always think working towards the next exhibition or the next project or the next thing that I have that I'm excited to work on. And I think as I'm getting older and I'm being fortunate to be able to cross all these bucket list things off of my bucket list, quite literally, this was when I was a kid, I went on a field trip to what was then the Miami Art Museum, which was this museum in a different space. That was my first time in a museum, and that was in a magnet school for art that I went to.

(26:03):

And I fell in love with art, and I just dreamt of having my work in a museum because it just felt so, it felt larger than me. So to be able to have this happening is just so amazing. But it's like, okay, just the way I'm wired, it's like the negative is like I cross this off, now what else do I want to do? There's a million things that I want to do. But the question I'm asking myself back to the actual question is how do I remove myself from these things and how do I find that kind of sense of validation and things that are internal, and they're not from my work or from this type of stuff. And it's a tough question to ask, but it's an important question to ask. I feel like it kind of envelopes what we're talking about, whether it's a review or something that we live in this world where everything is so fast paced and there's this instant gratification of posting a photo, posting this and having certain people react to it. And then you get that, and then it's like, okay, what's the next thing that I'm going to do? And just forcing myself to look internally and understand that I'm more than my work. I'm more than these other parts of me. And the more in touch and in tune I am with that, the better everything else will be. I feel like whether it's the work I'm putting out, whether it's the relationship, whether it's a friendship, all these different aspects,

Noor Tagouri (27:20):

Can I say what comes To me?

Jason Seife (27:21):

I would love for you to, yeah.

Noor Tagouri (27:22):

So it's interesting because something that I do a lot in my own investigative work, but also I, I've seen that you do as well, and that I believe is going to be potentially a part of coming to fruition is your process being the product as well. And we're very much, our approach to journalism is full transparency, telling people how we met this person, how we talked to them, what we're thinking when we make mistakes, how we're, so the process ends up being a part of the work. And sometimes it's hard because even when I hear you ask that question, I wonder if some of the answer lies within how to be super in your body during the process. And recognizing that even though the process is product as well, it's still the process because you put so much of your soul into your work. Your work is literally directly tied to your own cultural heritage and your journey with identity and you as a person. And so it's just, for me, at least, as somebody who has very recently been on a similar journey of Coming to Fruition,

Noor Tagouri (28:37):

I feel like I find that the question that you asked is not one that necessarily has an answer, but gives you space to ask more questions about who you are or why you feel like you're here, what your purpose is, or when you're actually engaging with your process. I don't know, sometimes there's this moment, I started painting a couple of years ago, amazing. As  a way to process the investigation. I was doing it. It's kind of this wild journey that I've been on. And so sometimes I'll look at what I've made and I'll just be like, what is the deeper self trying to tell me about this moment in time? And how does that give me access to the equilibrium that I'm trying to tap into? Which is to me at least feeling in my body and just feeling really present because it is so easy to be like, okay, well what's next? Well, I don't know about you, but when I finish a body of work, I'm processing it for years to come. I'm, I'm still having kind of breakthroughs about what's happening or, yeah, I'm still asking really big questions. So what does being in your body during the process look like for you?

Jason Seife (29:48):

I mean, that's so beautiful that you said that because maybe it's not a question, maybe it's a head space that I'm in or that it's important to be in. But more specifically, and I know we're talking about general kind of personal things, but it relates so closely to the exhibition as a whole because that, that's the actual whole premise of this exhibition was I'm showing these paintings in different stages. I'm showing them in the initial inception or the sketch stage, I'm showing them a little bit. You're seeing them become completed in the actual exhibition space. So it's, that was my approach. And this is that forcing myself to literally look back at what I'm doing and enjoy that process. Because as an artist or as a person, I'm so analytical about the things that I do and I have a goal or where I want to be.

(30:37):

And then I gets that and it's like, okay, I did that. Now what's the next thing? And I didn't enjoy this actual aspect, and I'm not looking back at the work that I put into it or forcing myself to digest it in the way that you mentioned that you look at some of your work sometimes where I feel like that happens with me subconsciously where I'm thinking about certain things or sometimes even in an analytical way. I'm like, I love that idea. I wish I would've taken it over here instead. But with this exhibition, I'm literally, that's the, and I don't know how much you you're were aware of, cause I don't even know how much I've talked about this publicly, but that's the actual approach to it. So it's so beautiful that you were able to kind of nice piece that together. I think I can just from it,

Noor Tagouri (31:15):

I can sense it in another person who's going through

Jason Seife (31:17):

That part of the Yeah, you're like, this guy's going through it and I'm kidding. No, no, I get it. For sure.

Noor Tagouri (31:21):

You mean this guy is just going through life

Jason Seife (31:23):

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes

Noor Tagouri (31:24):

When you're going through life out loud,

Jason Seife (31:27):

Yeah

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Noor Tagouri (31:27):

Franklin, what is the question that you are asking yourself these days?

Franklin Sirmans (31:33):

Oof. Oh man. These days, I mean, in light of where we are and the things that are happening around us, question is how to realize the potential of museums and of being in the museum space. I mean that in the sense of, it's one thing to say, gravitate toward this space because care about people, I care about the world. I know from my vantage point that we need things that help us understand each other a little bit better. And I totally believe that artwork, Jason's is a means of furthering the conversation of taking us in a different place, of being a catalyst for conversations that would never happen without the artwork situated between us.

Noor Tagouri (32:30):

Wow.

Franklin Sirmans (32:31):

And so the question now is, and it's not new museums have dealt with this in the past, but we find ourselves at a really interesting inflection point here in Miami, specifically in Florida specifically, where ideas around culture and the limits of open conversations around culture are being tested. So I mean, very directly, very specifically, the other day we had to have a meeting in order to talk about an event that we've done annually, an event around pride that we've done annually. So in the past, that event has included drag queens.

Noor Tagouri (33:20):

Oh, yep.

Franklin Sirmans (33:21):

So we know

Noor Tagouri (33:22):

What's happening in Florida

Franklin Sirmans (33:23):

It's a different conversation this year than it was last year. And so how are we going to deal with that? How are we going to confront that? I think it's a distraction in terms of our higher goals of bringing it to people together. In some ways a distraction that is by design, of course. But it puts us in an interesting crossroads right now. So I'm just trying to ask the question, what can we do as a museum to not only provide a space for people to come together around great works of art, but also to be a place where some of those conversations are difficult, sometimes, not just stimulating opportunities for learning about other people, learning about the world, but how can we,

Noor Tagouri (34:13):

Yeah. Well, I would love to probe a little bit about that meeting that you had and just especially because this museum specifically feels, I mean, it's such an open space and it's meant to house the work of disruptors. So how did you guys proceed with that conversation?

Franklin Sirmans (34:31):

Well, yeah, as you mentioned, like I said, we are sitting here in what we call the learning theater. We are surrounded by literally a space for people to sit and talk and actually a pause space. We're not actually looking at any paintings or anything directly right now. It's really about this in a way. Yeah. Yeah. It's an active space. Normally there would be an artist sitting here making artwork. So the way that we proceed is just, it's just an open conversation and letting, bringing together a different group of people just to voice opinions. How do you feel it literally the way that you started the conversation, how does your heart feel? That's where we began. So it continues from there.

Noor Tagouri (35:20):

So I like to do this thing called, if you really knew me and you just fill in the blank, if you really knew me, you would know. And I would love for you to share that statement. You can do one, you can do two, you can do three, if any, come to your heart. I can start. Yeah. Sorry, can you just repeat what you Well, I'll just start it with, if you really need, stay with me. So if you really knew me, you would know that the last time I was in Miami with my little 12 year old brother was when I got married here almost six years ago.

Jason Seife (36:02):

Amazing.

Noor Tagouri (36:03):

And that he's such a huge inspiration to me in this conversation. And if you really knew me, you would know that it feels very true to be here in conversation with you two. And that I was a little bit nervous just because of the time and the fact that this is the first time that we're recording in this way. But I had full trust, and that always works out really beautifully. And if you really knew me, you would know that this morning I was feeling really tired and foggy, and I didn't know if I was going to feel clear today, but this conversation almost just immediately cleared up my brain. So I'm very grateful.

Jason Seife (36:48):

Amazing. Okay. Well, I feel like I've talked a lot of things that probably make me a bit known to people. I mean, I feel like I've explained some stuff that kind of show my process outside of just work and just me as a person. But if you really knew me, you'd know that I'm colorblind. I'm pretty severely colorblind. So whenever I mention this to people, I try not to say it that much because there's usually people have a very specific reaction to what they think that means. So obviously it doesn't mean that I just see black and gray, but I have, from when I was a kid, my parents thought I just was dumb. I didn't know colors because I would just call something like a color that it wasn't. But I am pretty similar color blind. And for a large part of my artistic career, I was working because I was insecure about it.

(37:42):

So I would work in black and gray or in tones of blue. I was stuck in Picasso's blue period unintentionally. And then I realized that I feel like it's a blessing for me because what people see in my work, the finished painting is very different from what I see in it. So I have to use pretty drastic color changes to be able to see a subtle color. So the way I explain is if you're looking at a color wheel, maybe you'll see orange, orange, yellow, orange, orange, yellow, and I'll just see orange. So all that's just blended into one shade or tone. So I have to be a little bit more extreme in my color changes to be able to see a subtle difference in tone. So what I see in the finished product is kind of not too intense, but I always get these compliments on the colors.

(38:30):

And early on I would take photos of the work and then go to Photoshop and switch to black and gray to be able to see some of the color changes and be like, okay, this is too intense. Cause I can see it when I flip that. And then now I'm just like, I don't care. I'll just able to just kind of lean into it. And I feel like it helps. It's a, it's kind of a fun thing that I have. And if you knew me also, that I'm my own worst critic. So I'm always, that's not Franklin. No, Franklin is the best. Franklin is wonderful. I'm always looking back at what I've done and Okay, cool. But I mean, I'm always looking at it, and not so much on just technicality, but just on, as I learn more and I have the beautiful opportunity to share my work in spaces like this museum and have these conversations about intention and intention in the work, that forces me to look back at what I'm doing and this platform that I have where people care about my work and question kind of why I'm doing this, what I'm saying with it.

(39:33):

Because there was a large part of my life where I had this kind of survivor's guilt of just like, why am I able to make a living making this work when I know how hard I've been to Iran, I've been to Syria. I know how difficult it is for where this art form started to be able to make any sort of money in it due to things like sanctions and so much more. That is for part two of this conversation. But when I first came back from that trip, I was so jaded, I was so inspired, but so jaded. Cause I was just like, why? You know what I'm saying? But then to be able to have this opportunity to shed so much light on this and not do anything with it is so much worse than anything else. So to be able to do the work that I make, and then I'll have kids from all over the world who are studying like Islamic art or studying carpet design in a university, and they'll come to me and be like, I was so bored taking this class, and I saw your work, and it made me excited about it.

(40:30):

To have that kind of full circle moment is so rewarding, and just trying to educate people as much as possible from all walks of life on that is so important to me. And yeah, I know I tangent from the original line, but beautiful. I think it's important.

AD BREAK - ISEEYOU FOUNDATION 

Noor Tagouri (40:46):

I mean, also, I just want to say how profound, I mean, it's interesting because that was the back to back with the colorblindness to the worst critic, but how profound it is that you remind all of us that the way that we observe people's art is never the way that the artist perceives it. Yeah. You said that and you explained that in such a literal sense. So yeah, I know that you're your worst critic, but I also think that your, I mean, your work is phenomenal. It's inspiring and moving to us, and there's a reason I understand the survivors guilt. That always goes through my mind, but there's a reason that we're here and we're able to continue the stories and continue the traditions and amplify them. So thank you so much for sharing

Jason Seife (41:27):

Oh, thank you.

Noor Tagouri (41:28):

And Franklin, what, let's get to know you.

Franklin Sirmans (41:32):

That was incredible. You know George Clinton,

Jason Seife (41:34):

But at first time, me and George Clinton were ever in the same, in the same, but I'm glad, that's a wonderful context to be in. He's a legend

Franklin Sirmans (41:43):

Who's also a painting.

Jason Seife (41:44):

Oh, I, I'm not familiar with his paintings, but definitely of his work.

Franklin Sirmans (41:48):

Wow, very cool.

Jason Seife (41:50):

Oh

Franklin Sirmans (41:50):

Gosh. The question

Noor Tagouri (41:51):

If you really knew me.

Franklin Sirmans (41:52):

Yeah, yeah. Well, lemme preface that by saying, yes, go for it. You are so good at what you do because you almost got me to say anything, but I'm just be like, well, Maritza just came back. Don't tell her.

Jason Seife (42:07):

She's just like, no,

Franklin Sirmans (42:09):

I'll leave it. I'll leave it at I, I'll leave it at that respect and admiration for you both. If you really knew me, you'd know that I would leave any art event or conversation and go see a football match at any moment.

Noor Tagouri (42:22):

Are we talking about American football? No. Okay. Soccer.

Franklin Sirmans (42:25):

Yes,

Noor Tagouri (42:26):

Soccer. He's a

Franklin Sirmans (42:28):

Huge soccer. Any moment.

Jason Seife (42:30):

Amazing. And I

Franklin Sirmans (42:31):

Have so many examples. It's ridiculous.

Jason Seife (42:34):

Who, but wait, so who's your team?

Franklin Sirmans (42:36):

My,

Jason Seife (42:37):

Well depend. Okay. If we're doing like

(42:38):

What are we talking about? What are we, we're Spain, what are we doing?

Franklin Sirmans (42:43):

Laga? I'm less inclined,

Jason Seife (42:44):

But I'd Okay. But bars are okay. Would've, you can't see my keys, but there's a bar. Oh yeah. Yeah. We might have had to pull the show if you said Real Madrid. I'm just kidding. That's a really good, you really good. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.

Noor Tagouri (42:58):

That's A really great one. Well, it's perfect. It's a perfect transition because Yaseen, my beautiful 12 year old brother actually has the final question of this interview. And because you were so generous to share about colorblindness, I actually think it would be beautiful if Yaseen, do you want to get on the mic and ask the really amazing question that you shared earlier? I think for you two, it's a very, very important question. Awesome. So go for it. Ya.

(43:27):

What's your favorite color?

Jason Seife (43:28):

Oof. Right. It goes through phases right now I like a mint green. Ooh, I like a mint green. Love a mint green. Do you approve of that All? It's all right. It's all right. It's all.

Noor Tagouri (43:44):

Do you have a reason why?

Jason Seife (43:46):

No, it's just like, it feels calming. I don't know. It's just kind of where I'm at in life. I kind of like that color. I love it for you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't love it for me as much, but it's okay. Look, next when I change, I'll tell you.

(43:58):

He's talking about soccer with you.

(43:59):

Oh, okay. Okay.

Noor Tagouri (43:59):

American football. He just learned why soccer's called soccer and not American football yesterday. Oh,

Jason Seife (44:04):

So amazing.

Noor Tagouri (44:05):

Okay. Frankly, favorite color.

Franklin Sirmans (44:07):

Favorite color is blue. I just feel like there are just too many variations that I relate to, and it's just such a broad spectrum and it has so much metaphorical power. So

Jason Seife (44:18):

That's why I was going to say blue, but I was like, I'll give it to Franklin. Just so you know. I'm just kidding.

Franklin Sirmans (44:23):

Thank you

Noor Tagouri (44:24):

Thank you both so much for your time. Thank you for your service, and thank you for your heart. This was beautiful.

Franklin Sirmans (44:29):

Thank you.

Jason Seife (44:30):

Thank you for Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

OUTRO:

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AT YOUR SERVICE PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA.

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

Theme music is the song "Thunderdome, Welcome to America" by Portugal. the Man.

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS FRANKLIN SIRMANS AND JASON SEIFE. BE SURE TO CHECK OUT "COMING TO FRUITION" AT THE PEREZ ART MUSEUM IN MIAMI

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.