(Transcript) Hawa Hassan on Grandmother Representation, Food Storytelling, and Building a Hot Sauce Line

Noor Tagouri:

Finally.

Hawa Hassan (00:00):

I know.

Noor Tagouri (00:01):

I feel like this. I literally looked in my email and I was like, the last time I asked you, this was literally in 2021, 2 years ago, and that was, I think you were recording Hawa at Home.

Hawa Hassan (00:14):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:15):

That year. And just a casual show on the Food Network

Hawa Hassan (00:22):

That show, God, it feels like a lifetime ago.

Noor Tagouri (00:26):

Really.

Hawa Hassan (00:27):

It feels so long ago.

Noor Tagouri (00:29):

Did you enjoy doing it?

Hawa Hassan (00:31):

I did. I love cooking and I love learning, and I like being in front of the camera. That comes really easy to me. So it was a lot of the things I like to do in one. Yeah, and it was a fun new experience,

Noor Tagouri (00:52):

So I loved it. I thought it was such a beautiful, it was so integrated. It wasn't just about the food, it was about the story. It was about the spices and the flavors and also what each of them meant and how you created home in so many different ways. And I'm so excited to talk about that with you.

Hawa Hassan (01:09):

Thank you, Noor.

Noor Tagouri (01:10):

So the way we kick off these conversations is asking a simple question, how is your heart doing today?

Hawa Hassan (01:17):

So funny, Mona asked this question the other night, and I struggled because I was thinking about in the moment, and it was funny because I didn't realize how much I needed that type of a dinner that night, the proximity to people and people that are similar to who I am and people who practice my religion. And so in that moment, I had sadness and I was happy and I was a little overwhelmed. So I've been thinking about this question since Thursday night. I would say today my heart feels at rest, but overall, I would say I think my heart the last couple years has felt tired for myself for the world. But overall, today I feel like I'm at rest.

Noor Tagouri (02:12):

Well, rest is revolutionary. So that's a really great state to be in. And I think it's like when you say that you feel felt tired for yourself in the world. I've just been thinking about your story so much and your origin story so much and how independent you became because you had to, and how we are so lucky to witness the fruits of the work that you've put in, of how you've pieced together the story of who you are and how you've gotten here. So I would love if we could, I don't typically start at the beginning, but I would love with you to start a little bit at the beginning and take me back to when you were seven years old.

Hawa Hassan (03:01):

Yeah. Well, okay, seven is a little weird because when I was four, the war was starting, and that was in the late eighties, early nineties. And we moved to Kenya. My family and I, my mom at the time had five children. One of them was living with my grandmother in the countryside in Somalia. And so she was traveling with just four kids and one she was pregnant with. So only three of us were with her. And then my little sister, Ayan, she was pregnant with. And so life, I think the life I know now and have really started at four. Prior to that, I was just a kid running around, going to the beach on the weekends, going to my grandfather's house on the weekends. But when we moved into the refugee camp, when the war started, we moved there because my mom was really intent on leaving Somalia and Africa altogether.

(04:00):

We really went because my parents were in the midst of a divorce. So my mom, who at the time I think was 23 or 24, was starting a new life in the midst of the war while being pregnant. And so when we got to the refugee camp, she quickly realized that help wasn't going to come as quickly as it was. And so we opened a good store and we sold dry goods. And that was the first time I worked. And it was such an adventurous time because I was a part of something that felt so new to all of us. I was boiling pasta water, I was taking care of my little sisters, my big brother become the man of the house. Meanwhile, he's like five. And after a year of being there, my mother realized that it wasn't conducive to the life that she wanted us to have. So we moved to Nairobi and we started school. And then two years later, there was an opportunity for a girl to go to Seattle with a group of nine men.

Noor Tagouri (05:04):

What do you mean? What's the opportunity?

Hawa Hassan (05:06):

Sponsorship. So originally there was a little girl that was supposed to go, and about three months prior to leaving, her mother decided she wasn't going to go. And actually, this is a part of the story, I don't really share much, but now I know more about it because my mom and I have talked a lot about it. So they decided that they weren't going to send their daughter, and my mom said, oh, I'll send my eldest daughter. And so I stepped in for this girl, moved to Seattle with the eldest man who was my father on paper, was a man named Abdi Samad who was supposed to be a grandfather from my dad's side of the family. So when we got to Seattle, the plan was my mom would follow, and we got

Noor Tagouri (05:55):

So you were the key. You were the ticket that could help.

Hawa Hassan (05:58):

I was one less person who needed to be sponsored, so I was going to come to Seattle. Then she was going to wait for sponsorship, and then they were going to move to Seattle. She didn't think it would take long as God would have it. She got that sponsorship in like 2007. But by then, my family had moved to Norway. But imagine had she waited from 1990 to, or 1993 to 2007, living in Kenya. But my mother is a brilliant woman who is a mover and a shaker. And so I got to Seattle, she realized that there wasn't going to be any sponsorship because Black Hawk down had happened. And so they stopped giving sponsorships to Somalis. My mom then remarried the guy who does the money exchanging at the market, she opened a gold store. She sent him to Norway as a student, and he filed for family reunion. So my family's been living in Oslo since 1997. Crazy. That's wild. I know.

Noor Tagouri (07:02):

But okay, fill in the picture a little bit more for me. So you go to Seattle and you find out, and your mom finds out that your reunion isn't going to be a soon, because even the idea of uniting after a year is a long time, especially for a child. Do you remember how you were feeling? And has she ever shared with you how she was feeling?

Hawa Hassan (07:25):

Yeah, I mean, the first couple years, yeah, I was like, Ooh, this is so exciting. This is a new adventure. My mom, my brother and I had really been on these adventures together. My mom was so young. Now, when I think about it, I'm like, gosh, I can't imagine being that young and having to figure it out. It was at the end of elementary school that I was like, oh, no one's coming.

Noor Tagouri (07:49):

Who were you staying with?

Hawa Hassan (07:49):

I was still living in this, I was living in a two bedroom apartment. So when we got there, everyone kind of dispersed. So it ended up being me and Abdi Samad and two of the other guys. So I had my own room. We were living in the south side of Seattle. When I started middle school, I was like, it's time to assimilate. No one's coming. So sixth grade, I was like, I got to take off my hijab. I was struggling with all the things. And I did, by seventh grade, I took off my hijab. I started playing basketball. I joined a community center. I joined all these free programming like 4 H.

Noor Tagouri (08:28):

I remember 4 H.

Hawa Hassan (08:29):

Oh, saved my life. Might have been the only Muslim in young life, that Christian group. I was like, I'm going on a horseback ride.

Noor Tagouri (08:38):

Was 4 H Christian, too?

Hawa Hassan (08:40):

No, it was just making young Americans, farmers or something like that.

Noor Tagouri (08:46):

And I grew up in a rural town, so everybody was a 4 H

(08:50):

Did you want to

(08:50):

Do those things? How does a child, at the time, one, I mean, I'm just curious, how did you come to start choosing or start wearing the hijab at such a young age? And then how did you make that decision as a child to decide not to

(09:07):

Anymore?

Hawa Hassan (09:08):

So all of my mother's daughters did it just, my mother didn't wear hijab growing up. It was a different time in Somalia. And she was a traveler, and her and my father went everywhere. And so I always saw really beautiful women who were modern and who were also religious and who worshiped in the way that they wanted to. They didn't follow any strict rules, and we weren't monolithic in the way that we are now as Somalis. And so when we got to Kenya, it was like, this is our differentiator. We are Muslims. It was like, we're Somalis and we're Muslims. So all of my mother's daughters did at that time. And then when I got there, I wore the hijab. Cause I was like, I'm honoring my family. This is who I am. This my mother would want me to be a good girl. My mother would want me to be kind. My mother would want me to take care of this man, Abdi Samad or Abdi Samad. I'm like, she would want me to be a good daughter to him. And so it's funny, his name on paper is Noel Hassan. That's why my last name Hassan.

Noor Tagouri (10:19):

No.

Hawa Hassan (10:20):

Yes. But refugee stories are always so messy. It's beautiful. And so it's weird calling him Abdi Samad because it's like, you just didn't do that growing up.

Noor Tagouri (10:35):

What did you call him?

Hawa Hassan (10:36):

“Awoa”. Or I, yeah, I called him Grandpa. Yeah. So I was in the sixth grade. I was like, okay, you're going to become American because they're not coming. And then from that point on, I just was really angry and disconnected from them for a long time. And then when I got to the eighth grade, my basketball coach, I got really good at basketball and was playing AAU. And she said, I think if someone doesn't step in, you're going to slip through the cracks. It's weird to talk about this.

Noor Tagouri (11:18):

I appreciate you so much for

(11:26):

Sharing, and we can pause at

(11:27):

Any time.

Hawa Hassan (12:47):

So yeah, my teammate, her parents took me in and raised me as their own. And I was there until I went off to college. And then a year or two into college, I was asked to move to New York.

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Noor Tagouri (13:06):

Tell me about that. So when, at this time, how often are you able to communicate with your mom?

Hawa Hassan (13:13):

I never spoke to them. I didn't speak to them from, I think from eighth grade until I was a senior in high school. The family that was raising me, the mother was a school teacher, and she taught at an elementary school and she had Somali students. And one day, and Yvonne was really funny, I think wherever she went, she tried to connect with people in a way that sometimes was a little aggressive. So she was telling these Somali students, she's like, I have a Somali daughter. And so the kids went back home and they were like, miss Yvonne has a Somali daughter. And so the mom came to the school and she said, what's her name? And she told them, and she said, her mother's been looking for her. And so the lady brought, I'll never forget, the lady brought Yvonne. Remember the line paper we used to use in school with my mother's phone number on it? It was a four seven number. It was this long Norwegian number. And she brought it to Yvonne and she said she should call her mother. So I did. And Abdi Samad had just said to, because I got emancipated when I moved in with them, he just said, oh, she moved in with some black Americans. That's all he knew. That was the extent of what he knew. And so we waited till the weekend. We called my mom. And

Noor Tagouri (14:43):

What were you thinking?

Hawa Hassan (14:47):

I think I was thinking I was no longer angry. I was ready to talk to them. I was ready to learn about their life. I wanted to know more about Norway. I don't think at that point, I must have known that they were in Norway, but I don't think I could, that I could comprehend where Norway was or I put a lot of thought into it. So

Noor Tagouri (15:07):

How old are you when you make this phone call?

Hawa Hassan (15:09):

I had to have been 15th. Cause I graduated high school when I was 16, so around my 15th birthday. And we just never stopped talking after that.

Noor Tagouri (15:23):

Do you remember one of the first things that she said to you?

Hawa Hassan (15:25):

Oh, she just was like, I've been looking for you. And I was like, oh, okay. Because lady, you sent me here. Why? Yeah. A lot of therapy. I know why now. But I'm like, oh, okay. And she's like, well, what happened? And I think she's still very angry about the way everything went down, but she's really grateful that everything turned out fine. Growing up in the US in the nineties was a little, kids were getting snatched up. And so to be on this side of things and to have made, even then I had the best of circumstances in Seattle. And I always tell people, I'm like, it's my mother's prayers, because there's no way, there's no other way to explain how everything right.

Noor Tagouri (16:16):

It was miraculous. It really was. And it still is. I mean, look at what you're doing now. So you get the call to move to New York. Why?

Hawa Hassan (16:29):

I started modeling in high school. My best friend Devin was a model. And one day I went in with her to her agency, and this woman, Paige said, you should model. And I was like, I play basketball, I don't, why would I model? And a little while later, I thought I needed a summer job. I should do it. Did it? Things went really well. The bar Marshe at the time, which is Macy's now was in Seattle. That's their headquarters. I started doing really well. Eddie Bauer, all these things just started falling into place for me. And so when I was 19, they were like, you should move to New York. And I was like, say less. Packed up my stuff. I came to visit when I was, I think 17 for a summer, and then I came back when I was 19 and I moved to BedStuy Brooklyn.

Noor Tagouri (17:20):

No way. It's a Brooklyn baby.

Hawa Hassan (17:22):

I know. I'm still there, which I'm so thankful for.

Noor Tagouri (17:27):

Wow. So tell me about your relationship with food and how did you use food as a tool to piece together your story?

Hawa Hassan (17:39):

Well, so growing up in Seattle, I was very clear on who I was. I'd always be like, I used to have this thing where one Sunday a month I would cry, I would ball my eyes out,

Noor Tagouri (17:53):

And you were able to hold it, concentrate it, and then pick the day?

Hawa Hassan (17:57):

It was one Sunday a month, one Sunday a month. And I laugh sometimes because I'm like, you were a weird little girl. But that one Sunday I was like, I could feel whatever I want, and then we're going to pick ourselves back up and we're going to get to it. And so I would always walk around and I'd be like, I'm Oman's daughter. I'm Athens daughter. I knew who I was. And I still sometimes do that when I need to remind, when I need to center myself. And so I just have always felt like, I don't know what my mother was doing when she was praying, but I've always felt very grounded in myself. So I knew I was really different from everyone around me in Seattle, but I really loved being the girl next door. I was all of these things, but I was still the basketball player, a good student, a kind friend.

(18:58):

I was, all these little things that I really hung onto my whole life. And so when I came to New York, I was like, oh, not only was I very different in Seattle, but this place is also a place of a lot of misfits. And no one is sharing the stories of misfits like me. We're all watching the news and we're all saying, oh yeah, maybe we are pirates. Maybe we are hungry all the time because these are the stories that are being told about me to me. And I just kept thinking, how do I tell better stories about people like myself? And so I was always going to Norway by now, I was traveling to Norway all the time to be with my mother and sitting with her and her friends, I was like, they're healthy stories to tell. They're big, beautiful stories to tell. And those stories don't belong to the people who don't have the firsthand experience. So food, for me, getting into it was a way of returning agency to myself and to my family and to people like me.

Noor Tagouri (20:11):

So tell me when, what was the moment when you had the first idea that you were going to make this a career?

Hawa Hassan (20:23):

I gave up my apartment in 2014, and I moved to Norway. I was living in Forte Green. I still live in Forte Green, Brooklyn. And I went to be with my mother because I wanted to talk to her about who I wanted to be long term. And that was it for me. I was like, I'm going home and I'm starting a business and I'm starting with hot sauces.

Noor Tagouri (20:46):

You And how did you know it was going to be hot sauces?

Hawa Hassan (20:50):

Oh. Cause I took my Vitamix with me that summer to Norway. And for

Noor Tagouri (20:54):

You took your Vitamix in your suitcase?

Hawa Hassan (20:55):

I was such a crazy person

Noor Tagouri (20:59):

Of all of the things that you just told me that might be the most peculiar

Hawa Hassan (21:02):

I was like, I'm going to make my smoothies every morning. And it was Ramadan. I love it. And so every night I was blending the hot sauces for the family, and my mom kept saying, this is such a good mixer. And that, I mean, I was making BasBaas every night. And that's how really I was like, oh, I can go home and make this and inch my way onto American tables, and then I can write a book and teach them, and then I can go on their TV and show them. And I mean, now I look back at 'em like I was so naive. I had such big ideas.

Noor Tagouri (21:41):

But you did all of them. So what was that naive?

Hawa Hassan (21:43):

I know, but I think had I really had, I written it all. I mean, I did write it all out, but had I really thought about the work it would take, I might've never started.

Noor Tagouri (21:55):

I think I feel similarly to that.

Hawa Hassan (21:57):

Okay. Tell me a little bit about that.

Noor Tagouri (21:58):

I don't know, but I don't know if I would've never started. I don't know if that's the sentiment, but I think it's my gratefulness towards being naive and how I started is when I think about it, is more about people. I always assumed people were all very kind and people were all really supportive and loving. And even when I first started on the internet itself, things were a lot more positive. When a video, every once in a while something would go viral, but it was always in such joy. It was a wedding dance or a puppy vi or something like that. And so I think that I really just felt like I saw a possibility and I was like, oh, I can be exactly who I am out loud and it's just going to be fine. And I think had I known how things were going to become in terms of how people treat people when they're very loud with their ambitions and passions and how they hyper scrutinize or in some cases make it their mission to really put you down or tear you down or whatever it is, then I don't know if I would've been as willing. Sometimes I say, if I was my 17, 18 year old self, 10, 15 years ago, today in the world that we live in today, I don't know if I would've ever started in the way that I did. I don't think I would've had the courage to, because it, it's still scary.

Hawa Hassan (23:32):

It's so scary. But isn't it satisfying to have an idea and actualize it?

Noor Tagouri (23:41):

Absolutely. And I'm so grateful that we've done that and we continue to do that. And so I think about how many people don't, are too afraid to do that for themselves because of how we treat people or because of how hard we make it for people to just truly try to do what feels truest to them

Hawa Hassan (24:05):

Yeah. I can second that. Yeah. I do know that you, and doing the things you do gives permission to so many people to be, which is so nice. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (24:20):

I feel the same way about you.

Hawa Hassan (24:21):

Thanks, boo.

Noor Tagouri (24:22):

I mean, you've done BasBaas. You've written a cookbook, bbs, in BBS Kitchen, you've documented the stories of the grandmothers and the generations who use food not only as a language, but in a tool, but as an act of service and love. And it's interesting because something I've been thinking a lot about is when my grandmother feel takes a offense. You don't eat her food when you come over and you don't eat the food, and she gets really offended. Or if you ate before you came because maybe you don't want to make her have to go through that. And I realized as, and I've unpacked this with my aunt, but my grandmother got married when she was 15. She was pulled out of school, and she always resented that she wasn't able to finish her education and pursue a career. But what she was able to master so beautifully was cooking the food of our culture and to serving it to family and into each other.

(25:28):

And when she gets offended, it's not that it's not about you not eating her food, it's about that gesture of saying no or politely declining can be translated to her as well, I don't love you because this is how we say I love you in many ways is making the food and serving the food and you enjoying the food and accepting that gift. Yeah. So when you were pursuing in Bibi's Kitchen, what was your, especially because you spent so many years away from your family directly and you were having, I, it's so interesting that you basically came to know your family from this more mature lens where you were appreciating the smallest things that maybe as children we take for granted. So how did that perspective that you had of the elders who passed down these traditions impact the way you told that story?

Hawa Hassan (26:33):

So I mean, it's really interesting because Somalis are nomadic people and we're natural storytellers. And so in Islam we say paradise is at the foot of your mother. And so a lot of th e way I've come into many stories that are about me, even as a child or my mother, and my father's relationship is from just sitting with her in the kitchen as a 20 something year old. And so when I wanted to write about these women, I really went into food to tell stories. And so my number one interest was what is missing? Who is missing? How do you make it better? And I wish I could say there was this big great gesture behind preserving these stories from grandmothers. But my main reason was no one is talking to our elders, especially at the time. I was like, what is going on? Every chef is on, they were on tv. This is my Nonna's recipe, this is my grandmother's recipe, this is my abuela's recipe. Well, where is she?

Noor Tagouri (27:45):

Yeah, absolutely.

iHawa Hassan (27:49):

Noor Tagouri (28:34):

Do you reckon with what was missing is the actual voice of the elder, because that's frustrating.

Hawa Hassan (28:40):

Yeah. Okay. So I don't know that I've ever said this in an interview, but I'll tell you rest in peace, Anthony Bourdain. And I used to adore him, and he would go so far and wide only to talk to other men on tv. And I was like, dang, he's in a village in Senegal, and there's no women.

Noor Tagouri (29:01):

I felt the same way about the Libya episode actually,

Hawa Hassan (29:04):

Where Where're the grandmas. And I didn't know if it was a cultural thing. I didn't know.

Noor Tagouri (29:12):

I also had the same question about the, I was like, I wonder because it's also culturally, there's so much separation.

Hawa Hassan (29:19):

Mhm

Noor Tagouri (29:19):

So I was just like, huh? Was it just that this, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it, it's a challenging thing to figure out.

Hawa Hassan (29:28):

But I was like, I know that I could tell those stories. And I was like, I know I can hold space for those women. And so that's how I always arrive at the things I do. I grew up in conflict. So my next book is about food and conflict. Yes, yes. I'm very

Noor Tagouri (29:47):

Excited. Can you tell us about it?

Hawa Hassan (29:47):

Yeah. So it's about, again, who gets to tell the story. So it's returning agency to people who've lived in historical conflict zones. So Afghanistan, Lebanon, the Congo, Liberia, Iraq. And so I traveled to these countries to record these people's stories. And what people will be surprised about is the book is about celebration. I always say we have no sad stories to tell because enough people have told our sadness and made up even more sad stuff that didn't even occur. And so it's about community, it's about connection, it's about family, it's about the everyday lives of people. So there's snapshots of people that I met along the way, and then it's about the food, the diversity of the cuisines. And I think that's going to be really beautiful. I love El Salvador. It's not lost on me how similar El Salvador and Somalia are. And so I've traveled to El Salvador to record their stories and to talk about the star of the war, the start of the war being about the coffee and the farmland. And I interview a man who's like 78 years old, a guy named Fernando, who's become so dear to me. And we talk about his coffee journey and his young as his life as a coffee manager, and traveled to Lebanon. And I meet an activist named Mikey. And so it's just, it's really about returning agency to the people it belongs to.

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Noor Tagouri (31:27):

Do you have a name for the book yet?

Hawa Hassan (31:29):

I don't. We've been, okay. This, my editors are calling it In the Field because when I was reporting on the book, I was like, oh, I'll be, I'm in the field. I'm busy out in the field. Out in the field. But that has so many connotations.

Noor Tagouri (31:47):

It's going to come to you.

Hawa Hassan (31:48):

Yeah. That's what I've been thinking.

Noor Tagouri (31:51):

Come to you. You just got to make the space for it. Or you'll see it in the interviews and then in the transcripts and something will pop out.

Hawa Hassan (31:57):

I hope so.

Noor Tagouri (31:58):

No, I know it will. And then you let me

Hawa Hassan (32:00):

Just, I'll text you the name. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (32:04):

That's so beautiful. How are you feeling before embarking on that journey?

Hawa Hassan (32:11):

Well, I don't know. I was really exhausted because I was coming off of in Bebe's Kitchen, then the TV shows, and then the beard happened. So I won the James Beard, and then I flew out that night to the Congo. Then I get stuck because I didn't have a lav long for Congo. I got stuck in Pariss for a day. So I was nervous and excited, but I was also exhausted. And then somewhere along the way, in the stories and in the people I found rest and Liberia especially, tell me the people of barrier are just joyful people, people hospitable. So they just took me in. They took me and my photographer in, they cared for us. We went to their church, we ate with them. I spent Juneteenth there. So that was historical. And I think it was, this was the 400 year, I don't want to get it wrong of free people living there. And so they were celebrating that as well. Wow. It was just a joyful time. But beyond that, it's on the ocean. Life is really easy and smooth there. And I was coming from the Congo, which had been very hectic. And then to go there and just have rest was really nice. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (33:47):

What was the process? Did you guys have a guide on

Hawa Hassan (33:54):

A fixer?

Noor Tagouri (33:54):

Fixer on the ground? Or how much was prepared or planned for before you got to the countries? Especially because they were conflict?

Hawa Hassan (34:09):

So the place that I was most prepared for was Lebanon. Cause I didn't know much about Lebanon before going Congo. I used my friends, Liberia, used my friends El Salvador. I had gone there to do research in 2020 for this book. And so I used the same people I used then. So there was some prep ahead of time. But Lebanon was the place I was most prepared for. Cause I knew nothing about it.

Noor Tagouri (34:38):

And how long were you staying in each place?

Hawa Hassan (34:40):

I stayed 10 days in Lebanon. Cause again, I knew nothing about Lebanon, so I was like, I got to immerse myself in their culture. Congo, three days, Liberia, three days, El Salvador, four days. So no more than four days usually.

Noor Tagouri (34:54):

And what does the trip look like? What are the steps? How are the meals talked about? How are they enjoyed?

Hawa Hassan (35:01):

So what happened before I started the travels, I did research on the cuisine first. So I picked eight to 10 recipes from each country. And then while I was there, I just really chased down what does an Egyptian kitchen look like? What are you eating every day in Egyptian home? And then the recipes in the book became reflective of that. So same. And in Bebe's kitchen, it was so much more about cooking. This book is much more about people. So I was going for tea with Mikey going to the center that he runs. I cooked with a woman named Tanya in Liberia. Some of that was just being in Tanya's kitchen and watching her cook. And then in the Congo we made beignets. So sometimes there was a little bit of food, but very often it was sitting in someone's courtyard and recording them.

Noor Tagouri (35:58):

And what are you recording on?

Hawa Hassan (36:00):

I use, are you recorder? We use our camera. So Riley, my photographer, God bless his heart, shoots everybody. And then I use my phone to record, and then I transcribe everything.

Noor Tagouri (36:15):

Natural writer.

Hawa Hassan (36:16):

Ooh,

Noor Tagouri (36:17):

We love it.

Hawa Hassan (36:18):

That I'm not

Noor Tagouri (36:19):

Well, your writing is beautiful.

Hawa Hassan (36:22):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (36:23):

This is so, oh my gosh, I'm so excited for this. What is something that you learned about how food impacts a place, or actually how conflict impacts the food of a place?

Hawa Hassan (36:39):

I think one of the things that was so clear to me was the importing, the exporting. So Liberia where they eat ton of rice, they no longer grow their own rice,

(36:50):

So they import it from China. And we're talking about a place that can easily grow rice and that historically grows rice. So just the basics. A lot of these wars were started over lamb. So El Salvador, I learned a ton about coffee and some of the things that have happened with the government because of coffee and coffee farms, which is shocking to me. I'm like, wow. But in other places, it wasn't so much about the impact on, in Lebanon, they no longer import a lot of things because it's super expensive. So they pickle stuff and in the winter they can everything and they put it in the ground. And so I learned a lot about their pantries, which Lebanese people are really big on pantries. I didn't know that. There's those small stuff that

Noor Tagouri (37:54):

Those are, everything that you just shared is so important.

Hawa Hassan (37:58):

It's insane. It's tiny little things that make a huge difference.

Noor Tagouri (38:02):

It's like a reminder that the more you learn, the more you realize nothing.

Hawa Hassan (38:06):

Oh my God.

Noor Tagouri (38:07):

And how individual every person is in every culture. What is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

Hawa Hassan (38:17):

I think every day I try to ask myself, what do I know? For sure.

Noor Tagouri (38:27):

I love that question.

Hawa Hassan (38:29):

It's actually in my journal, and it's from Oprah from when I was a little girl. That book,

Noor Tagouri (38:33):

Obsessed with that book. I started asking myself the same thing.

Hawa Hassan (38:36):

That is so funny. Yeah. It's like from high school over days.

Noor Tagouri (38:40):

I was, I read that book probably when I was 17 or 18. And it's interesting. I think I should totally revisit it because when I asked myself what I know for sure, I think I also asked that last season at the end of every episode. But I feel like now, the only thing I know for sure is love. Just like it's just love and be here now, being here right now and everything else is up for question. What do you know for sure?

Hawa Hassan (39:11):

Ooh. I know that I'm loved deeply by my partner. I know that I'm so safe and I have so much security. I have more security than I've ever had in my life.

Noor Tagouri (39:26):

I love that for you.

Hawa Hassan (39:27):

Thank you.

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Noor Tagouri (39:31):

What's a meal you've been cooking a lot these days?

Hawa Hassan (39:34):

Oh God, this is going to sound so boring to you. But I've been making a lot of ground Turkey because I'm trying to get a lot of protein in these days.

Noor Tagouri (39:41):

Is that is an easy way to do it. The ground Turkey, what are you making? How are you making it? Because I get it sometimes and then I'm just like, so I just toss it in with,

Hawa Hassan (39:50):

Yeah. So the beginning of,

Noor Tagouri (39:52):

You're looking away as if you're going to be embarrassed by your answer

Hawa Hassan (39:54):

Because it's so embarrassing. I mean

Noor Tagouri (39:57):

But you were honest. I love it.

Hawa Hassan (39:58):

Oh, I can't lie. The beginning of every week we have this system in my house where I use our food processor to chop all of our vegetables. So I prepare everything well in advance. So no onion cutting happens. No pepper cutting happens. So I have my red onions that I use, and then I get two things of ground turkey, and I get the Trader Joe's taco mix and I just dump it in.

Noor Tagouri (40:32):

Don't be embarrassed

Hawa Hassan (40:33):

That that's what I do.

Noor Tagouri (40:34):

That sounds great.

Hawa Hassan (40:37):

And then I always put it on top of a bed of spinach.

Noor Tagouri (40:41):

Fresh or

Hawa Hassan (40:42):

Fresh. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (40:44):

I could go for that right now.

Hawa Hassan (40:46):

Yeah, it works. I get almost 50 grams of protein just in those two cups.

Noor Tagouri (40:52):

Do you add BasBaas?

Hawa Hassan (40:53):

No, not often.

Noor Tagouri (40:55):

What's your favorite way to use

Hawa Hassan (40:57):

BasBaas? Yeah. Oh, on everything. On my eggs, on my chicken sausages on. If I'm making a sandwich, if I have people over, I have it in the middle as a dip.

Noor Tagouri (41:11):

That's amazing.

Hawa Hassan (41:12):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (41:13):

Okay. So your mom, how does she show up in the BasBaas process and in Bibi's Kitchen and in the cookbook that you're currently writing? What is her experience knowing who you are today through those things?

Hawa Hassan (41:31):

Oh, I don't know. I think when I modeled, my mom was really embarrassed that her Muslim daughter went to America, didn't become a lawyer, but she became a model. And now I don't know that my mom completely understands what I do for work, but she's aware that I'm a professional and that when we travel, I can get her a hotel room and that makes her so happy. But in the way that she shows up in the experiences that I write about anyways, is that my mom is the epitome of resiliency. And I hate that word, to be honest with you. Yeah. I tell people all the time, baby, I'm going to lay down. Yeah. Ain't nothing about me strong. You know, shouldn't have to be, get somebody else to do it. Cause I, I'm, I'm going to lay down. But my mom is not like that after all of these years. She is. She's just joy. And so I try to experience anything I do from the perspective of joy first, whether it be in new friendships or a new gym or I always am like, Ooh, this is going to be fun. And that's what my writing is about. It's about how do I celebrate us? How do I celebrate myself? How do I celebrate these stories? And I learned that from my mother.

Noor Tagouri (43:01):

That's so beautiful. I mean, you're really repping something that's so much bigger than yourself now through your writing and through your business. And it's just not that we should ever think this way, but it's like, I wonder if your story was any different from when you were younger, if we would have been able to, if it would've had the same trajectory in how you executed or how you ended up creating the art that you create.

Hawa Hassan (43:30):

Yeah, I mean, I'm just so thankful that things shook out the way that they did. Totally. Because I stayed in Somalia. I probably would be married had I ended up living with my mom all those years. I would've raised all her kids. Where now I have very, I'm very independent. I have a life that is based on how I want to create. What kind of community does I want to build, who does I want to love? Yeah. It's very much so different than that of my siblings. And so I'm very thankful. Cause I know that I stayed in Kenya. What is now wouldn't have been.

Noor Tagouri (44:16):

Have you ever been back to Kenya or Somalia?

Hawa Hassan (44:18):

Oh yeah. I was just actually in Kenya not long ago for Christmas, but I haven't been back to Somalia. I'm hoping to go this year.

Noor Tagouri (44:27):

Yeah. How do you feel about that trip?

Hawa Hassan (44:30):

I just see my dad, he just had a kid for the first time outside of my mom. So all these years my dad has only had five children and my mom has 10, five of their second husband and five with my father. And so I want to go meet my little sister and I want to see his life. He's a camel herder. Wow. So I'm like, I want to experience the camels.

Noor Tagouri (44:55):

Do you ever talk to him about that?

Hawa Hassan (44:56):

Yeah. Oh yeah. I'll show you photos after. Sometimes he sends me updates.

Noor Tagouri (45:01):

What is the most interesting thing that you've learned about camel hurting?

Hawa Hassan (45:06):

Oh, it's a big business. I know. I wish I could tell you. It's like, oh, he tells me that the milk is good for eczema and that it's great for, it's a great sleep aid. He tells me those kind of things, but it's a big business,

Noor Tagouri (45:20):

So that's so interesting. Well, I'm thinking about how, maybe this is a little more personal, but how you essentially had to figure out who you were on your own terms because you weren't around family for so long. And now there's this air of certainty of today. I know how it was, how who Hawa is, and you've been able to have the space to do that. So when you engage with your family and your siblings and stuff today, is there, would you say a cultural difference? And if so, where do you find yourself meeting them and where do you find yourself pondering a little bit more?

Hawa Hassan (46:19):

Ooh, there's definitely a cultural difference between my siblings and I, even my mother and I. But the fabric of us is the same, which is so interesting. My family's hectic. 10 kids is a lot of people. And so we are a group of chaotic people, but I'm on the less chaotic side of things. And my mom always says, that's my white daughter.

(46:52):

That's what she says. I'm like, mom, you could say American. You don't have to. And it's because I will leave and go to yoga. I will. I never visit them and not go work out. I never visit them and not go for coffee in the morning alone. And they're not used to that. Yeah, they're used to getting up and getting right in the thick of mess. And so culturally, we're very different in that way. My family loves being around people. I'm very much a loner by nature and a lot of people don't know that about me, actually. I think people think I'm very social, which is a good facade, but I'm not that social. So culturally, we're really, really, really different. But the fabric of us is so similar and so I never not feel at home with them. They are my home.

Noor Tagouri (47:45):

What is your hope, what is your wish for future generations who feel disconnected from their ancestors and their elders?

Hawa Hassan (47:59):

I think my hope would be that anyone who feels disconnected is able to do the work to reconnect.

Noor Tagouri (48:04):

What does that look like?

Hawa Hassan (48:06):

Maybe it's going back, maybe it's a creating, I think it looks different for everyone. For me it was the going back, it was the sitting in the kitchens. It was the giving up my life in New York. It was the quitting my 10 year relationship. It was all these things. It was leaving Seattle. Had I never left Seattle, I don't know that I would have the life I have. I don't know that I would be so close to my mom. And so yeah, I always encourage people. I'm like, if you have doubts, go $2 in your pocket. Go get on the airplane, go sit somewhere, go talk to people and go connect and get off the internet. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (48:51):

That's the goal.

Hawa Hassan (48:53):

I know I really want to get off the internet.

Noor Tagouri (48:55):

I feel like I always talk about this with my friends, but I say my favorite use of the internet is the dinner that we had on Thursday. It's being able to figure out and connect people and be like, since it's almost like a contact profile and being like, Hey you, let's go hang out and meet. And then just the acknowledgement of a profile is not a person, A person is a person. So speaking of persons who is Hawa Hassan today?

Hawa Hassan (49:28):

Like this Saturday?

Noor Tagouri (49:29):

Like this Saturday, just today. Because every day, every day is a new day. So you can be a new person every day.

Hawa Hassan (49:38):

Today I would say I am someone who's incredibly content. I'm somebody who spends a lot of time trying to figure out how I can be better and do better. And I would say I'm somebody who just really enjoys my own company.

Noor Tagouri (50:01):

I can feel that.

Hawa Hassan (50:03):

Oh, thank you. I really feel that. Don't make me cry. I'm ready to drop a tear. Okay,

Noor Tagouri (50:08):

All right. The way we wrap up these conversations, and this has been such a special one, thank you so much for being so open. Is a fill in the blank. So if you really knew me, you would know. And then you can share one, two, or three things.

Hawa Hassan (50:27):

If you really knew me, you would know that I eat bananas with everything.

Noor Tagouri (50:33):

Just like plain bananas.

Hawa Hassan (50:35):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (50:35):

Perfect.

Hawa Hassan (50:37):

If you really knew me, you would know that I'm super athletic and I pride myself on that. If you really knew me, then you would know. I love traveling.

Noor Tagouri (50:54):

Thank you so much, Hawa.

Hawa Hassan (50:55):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (50:56):

If somebody had $2 in their pocket with the opportunity to travel anywhere in the world, where would you tell them to go to find themselves?

Hawa Hassan (51:05):

Oh, I would say anywhere where you want to connect. For me, the beginning of 2020 was El Salvador. I wanted to know more about El Salvador. So I went.

Noor Tagouri (51:18):

I'm very looking forward to the El Salvador chapter of this book.

Hawa Hassan (51:21):

I'm going to send you some photos that are going to, I'll send them to you today.

(51:26):

Thank you, Hawa.

(51:27):

 Thank you Noor.

*OUTRO*

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION.

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA.

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI.

Theme music by Portugal The Man, the song is called Thunderdome, Welcome to America, by Portugal. the Man.

EXTRA GRATITUDE TO OUR STORYTELLER HAWA HASSAN. ENJOY HER COOKBOOK "IN BIBI'S KITCHEN" CHECK OUT HER SHOW ON THE GOOD NETWORK "HAWA AT HOME" AND MAKE SURE YOU GET A BOTTLE OF HER AMAZING BASBAAS SAUCE. 

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.