(Transcript) Ep 5: Tell The Truth, Truth
Noor Tagouri (00:03):
Three, two, one.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Free, free Palestine.
Audience (00:10):
Free, free Palestine.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
What do we want?
Audience (00:13):
Justice!
Speaker 1 (00:13):
What do we want?
Audience (00:13):
Justice!
Speaker 1 (00:13):
When do we want it?
Audience (00:13):
Now!
Speaker 1 (00:13):
When do we want it?
Audience (00:13):
Now!
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We will get it.
Noor Tagouri (00:22):
On May 11th, 2022, Palestinian-American journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh, was at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. She was reporting on a raid by the Israeli defense forces. And while wearing a blue, bulletproof press vest, Shireen was shot in the head and killed by Israeli forces.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
In 2002, when the Israeli military occupied and completely destroyed the Jenin refugee camp, as she was there, documenting another raid at Jenin 20 years later.
Noor Tagouri (01:04):
I'm in DC right now, specifically the Lincoln Memorial. There's a rally for the 74th anniversary of the Nakba. The Nakba, which translates to the catastrophe, was the day Zionist military forces expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians from their homes, and took over an overwhelming majority of historic Palestine. This rally takes place in different parts of the world every year. But this one is different, because this one is four days after the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh.
Laura Albast (01:46):
Shireen gave birth to the voice of the Palestinian nation. This is the simplest way I can convey what she meant to all of us in Palestine.
Noor Tagouri (01:55):
This is Laura Albast. She's here with the Palestinian Youth Movement.
Laura Albast (02:00):
She was with us when we looked for children under the rubble. She was with us when we struggled against Israeli raids and Israeli terror. She was with us every step of the way, making sure that we are not forgotten.
Laura Albast (02:13):
And she's not gone. She's present every time we speak up about Israeli crimes, about the occupation, about the murder of our people, and about the murder of her. Because while she's not present right now today with us, her voice is present. And that's what we are going to channel today through this protest.
Noor Tagouri (02:31):
And it's not just Palestinians or Muslims and Christians who have come out to mourn.
Abraham Lefkowitz (02:37):
We are here as Jews. Come to show that we mourn on the killing of the journalist, Shireen. Unfortunately, it was done by people. They called themselves Jews, and they claimed to represent Jewish religion.
Noor Tagouri (02:58):
This is Abraham Lefkowitz. He's here with several other members of his community, carrying banners and signs of support.
Abraham Lefkowitz (03:07):
And we come here to show support and to show that we mourn together with the Palestinians.
Laura Albast (03:15):
So I'm a journalist. Everything that I know about Palestine as a child, my most dominant memories, are footage that was on Aljazeera and the voices of Aljazeera correspondence. Aljazeera was part of my life. It was part of my childhood. And that's what Shireen was as well. She was a member of the family every day, when we watch the news at 8 o'clock at night back home.
Laura Albast (03:40):
So it is very difficult to fathom that she is gone. But I know that... And this is something that she wrote, actually, on Facebook, is that when there is absence, there is a greater presence. And that's what we see today.
Noor Tagouri (03:55):
When there is absence, there is a greater presence. And that greater presence showed up here in DC and in cities all over the world, in mourning and in solidarity. Shireen died telling the truth. After her killing, an Israeli military spokesperson referred to Shireen and her journalist colleagues as, quote, "Armed with cameras," end quote, a devastating reminder that telling the truth and documenting stories are power. And to sum, a weapon.
Noor Tagouri (04:42):
At Your Service and iHeartMedia present Rep Chapter Five, The Truth, Truth.
Noor Tagouri (04:53):
It's spring 2014, and I'm wrapping up my last day of journalism school. My classmates and I all exchange goodbyes and good lucks. And my professor, who's also a writer at CNN, stops me on my way out of class. In one last effort, he says to me, "Are you sure you want to pursue journalism with that?" And he points to his head, referring to mine, but more specifically, my hijab. And then he says, "It only takes one jerk to... You know." And then his hand takes the shape of a gun. I blurt out awkwardly, "I would die for this."
Noor Tagouri (05:43):
And in 2014, I don't know exactly what I mean. But I've thought about it ever since. And what I've come to learn is I was telling him that I would die to tell the truth. And more importantly, to be my truth. It can be so difficult to tell the truth, especially when most of us have never been properly taught how.
Noor Tagouri (06:12):
Funny enough, our bodies are made to keep us alive the best they can. And if our bodies think that telling the truth puts our lives at risk, our bodies will resist. That lump in your throat, shaking hands, a racing heart, the feeling manifests differently for everyone. But you all know exactly what I'm talking about. So telling the truth requires training and skill. And many of us figure that out on our own, because even though we're told, "Tell the truth," our survival instinct warns us, "Tell them what they want to hear. Your life depends on it."
Noor Tagouri (06:58):
I think that's why a lot of us choose to commit to creativity. Even if we don't feel creative, it's through art and story that we can train ourselves to tell the truth. And like any healthy, committed relationship, it doesn't serve us to control and limit our art and story. We must remain open, because controlling and limiting a story is a recipe for misinformation and misrepresentation. And this is the breakthrough I've just told my friend and fellow journalist, Aymann Ismail.
Aymann Ismail (07:39):
You're giving me goosebumps, because this is something that I think is so freaking important. And that's sort of why I got into journalism in the first place, because everything that was on TV, when it came to things that I held to be true, especially being Muslim in America, was like, "Ugh. Ask us. Come to our community. Talk to us." When I became a journalist, I told myself that I don't know and that I need to find out. And even when it came to things that I knew was true, it's like, okay, I know that this thing is true, but let me go and ask about it.
Noor Tagouri (08:16):
Aymann literally has a video series called Who's Afraid of Aymann Ismail? Where he confronts the fear of Muslims in the alt-right and in his own community.
Aymann Ismail (08:29):
My name is Aymann. I'm a photo journalist who's kind of had a hard time trying to stay behind the camera lately. Guess why?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
When's the last time you read the Quran?
Aymann Ismail (08:37):
Maybe last month.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
You're just a front.
Aymann Ismail (08:40):
Usually when I talk about Islam, people will ask me if I force my wife to cover herself. You know, the stuff they see on TV.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Islamic, extremist terrorism.
Aymann Ismail (08:49):
I realize it comes down to one thing, fear. So I'm going to confront every one of those fears one by one in every corner of the country.
Noor Tagouri (08:58):
The thing that I appreciate so much about your work is that you talk about the stories that we're afraid to talk about. And you bring, essentially, a community's insides out without bending to the pressure of what you call outside forces of people who we are trying to please, so that they're not afraid of us. What is your intention behind your approach to the stories you decide to work on? What are you trying to get out of us?
Aymann Ismail (09:33):
Damn, Noor. That's so good to hear, because that is exactly what I wanted to do with that series. And I'm just so... I'm about to cry because... I'm I'm serious, because it was really challenging for me, because I didn't know if I was succeeding in that front. The intention is always tell the truth, truth, because there's so many different versions of the truth. And everyone's truth is going to be different.
Aymann Ismail (10:00):
So the question here is, how do you embrace your identity? And how do you embrace your perspective, and leverage it to tell better stories? And so, I found that people are willing to tell you their stories, but they're not just willing to tell it to anybody. They need to tell it to the right person, someone who they can trust. It's not a surprise that people have so many feelings and animosity towards reporters and journalists.
Aymann Ismail (10:28):
It's a choose-your-own-destiny world out there. And people, if they want to see all the bad, they'll see the bad. And if they want to see the good, they'll see the good. And so you kind of need to accept that you can't convince people that journalism is one way or the other. It's everything at the same time. So you need to leverage your perspective, your personality, your flavor, in order to get people to open up to you and trust you. And you can't get someone's story if they don't trust you. That's that's really everything.
Noor Tagouri (11:01):
Leveraging perspective and personality and facilitating trust are storytelling tools my friend, Hasan Minhaj, also uses in his truth-telling work, both in his standup comedy and on his show, Patriot Act. Patriot Act investigated culture and politics through Hasan's deeply intentional and comedic lens.
Noor Tagouri (11:25):
The show was named after the United States' Patriot Act, a haunting, post-9/11 law that allowed for intrusive surveillance of Americans in the name of fighting terrorism. The law directly targeted American Muslims. Hasan's show premiered with an episode on Saudi Arabia and the murder of journalist and Washington Post columnist, Jamal Khashoggi.
Hasan Minhaj (11:50):
Hello! Oh my god. Hello, how are you? I'm Hasan Minhaj. Welcome to Patriot Act. Thank you so much for coming out tonight.
Hasan Minhaj (12:02):
And it blows my mind that it took the killing of a Washington Post journalist for everyone to go, "Oh, I guess he's really not a reformer." Meanwhile, every Muslim person you know was like, "Yeah, no shit. He's the crown prince of Saudi Arabia."
Noor Tagouri (12:18):
The immediate feelings I had while watching this episode were trust, because he opened the show investigating a story that felt deeply personal to him and to the broader Muslim and journalist communities. And the other feeling was, wow, this is what representation feels like.
Speaker 13 (12:40):
[inaudible 00:12:40].
Hasan Minhaj (12:40):
[inaudible 00:12:40] what's up? Hey!
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Salaam. How are you? Salaam.
Hasan Minhaj (12:45):
What's up, bro? How are you? Nice to see you.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Nice to see you. Happy belated birthday.
Hasan Minhaj (12:49):
Thank you for the-
Noor Tagouri (12:51):
Right now, Hasan is on tour for his second comedy special, The King's Jester, where he gives us personal context to his experiences covering tough stories on Patriot Act. And in top comedic fashion, he ties that into his struggle with infertility and his welcome to fatherhood. We're backstage right now before his show in Kingston, New York. Kingston is a town with a backdrop of mountains, just less than a couple hours north of New York City.
Hasan Minhaj (13:21):
I see jokes like little puzzles. So when you set it up with a great premise and a punchline, it's just like a great bar or a verse in a song or in a poem, right? And for a moment, it's like, oh, I unlocked the code in the matrix. There's all these things I can't unlock, right? Like my relationship with my parents, the relationship with my sister. But in this moment, I figured it out. I got this breath of oxygen, right?
Noor Tagouri (13:46):
For Hasan, comedy is how he shares his unlocks.
Hasan Minhaj (13:57):
The invention of American modern standup comedy was a thing that was started in the nightclubs and jazz clubs of New York City, like where we kind of are. Adults would get dressed up. They would see a cabaret show. They would see a jazz show. They would see a musician. And then in between, they would see a comedian, in what's called a nightclub act.
Hasan Minhaj (14:18):
But there was this agreed upon social agreement of, "Hey, so it's 10:30 at night. Adam and Noor got dressed up. We know what it is. We're going to talk a little smack. We're going to say some things that we would never say above ground. We're literally in a basement." So this context of this art form, of just... In Hindi, we call it [Hindi 00:14:39], dangerousness, now has been put on the internet. So 8 billion people around the world are now seeing a basement art form.
Hasan Minhaj (14:50):
And at the same time, it is a incredible IRL, in real life, art form where you have to adjudicate the room. You got to be like, "Hey, what are the times that I'm living in? What's appropriate to say right now? What's not appropriate to say right now?" The way you and I would joke at night if we're all alone is very different than the way I would joke at the White House correspondent dinner or at a [inaudible 00:15:14] function or at my sister's walima.
Hasan Minhaj (15:17):
And I've had to tell jokes at all of those different things. And I remember Isha at my sister's wedding was like, "You cannot joke about this." There is a jurisprudence to your jokes. That's an important thing.
Noor Tagouri (15:30):
There's that famous quote, "If you want to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise, they'll kill you."
Hasan Minhaj (15:38):
The art form is going through a very weird time right now. I feel like music has been able to survive. I think everyone has the social knowledge. They understand beat and hyperbole. When Olivia Rodrigo says, "You ripped my heart out," we all understand her ex-boyfriend didn't literally crack open her sternum and pull her heart out. She's evoking a feeling. Don't focus on what I'm saying, listen to what I mean, right?
Hasan Minhaj (16:04):
That fundamental problem of, I think, people not being able to determine the difference between satire and sincerity, those two things, it's been very tough for the art form. And I'm navigating that for myself. So that's been disillusioning, that part of it, as a comedian, the disillusioning part for me as a public figure.
Noor Tagouri (16:25):
I relate to Hasan's feeling of disillusionment. There have been times where I haven't put out work because I get consumed with thinking about how people are going to react or if they'll really get it. And for Hasan, there's an even greater challenge.
Hasan Minhaj (16:40):
The tough part is I get to say and do all these things, but my family has to live with the consequences. And that's a tough thing. And they didn't necessarily sign up for that.
Noor Tagouri (16:51):
Hasan's immediate family includes his wife, Beena, and his two little ones. And in his new special that we're here tonight to watch, he tells a story of how his child's life was put in danger after his Saudi Arabia episode of Patriot Act.
Hasan Minhaj (17:09):
There have been definite ups and downs that I've had. And having that relationship with Beena and being like, "Hey, is this okay?" The world has rough edges that... You'll bump into things. "Oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh, I shouldn't have done that." That's the growing pains and the tough, painful part of life and relationships. It's tough.
Noor Tagouri (17:32):
In order to get to the unlock, in order to figure the matrix out, you had to do work on yourself. You had to figure out who you were. You had to figure out what your stories were.
Hasan Minhaj (17:41):
Totally. And you worked in news for years. You know there's this other part of it, which is the metanarrative, right? Is that... When you become a public figure, you become an avatar. So there's times where everybody knows of me. I grew up in Davis. I grew up in Sacramento. Everybody knows me. It's just the skinny [inaudible 00:17:58] kid from the masjid, right? But now I'm @HasanMinhaj. I'm blue check verified. I become an avatar that represents something. And that's where people are like, "I'm disappointed in you. You should have done this. I'm mad at you. You should be this." Or, "You're awesome because you did this," all those sort of things.
Hasan Minhaj (18:22):
And there's moments like when I'm on a plane and Beena's breastfeeding, and somebody's coming over and taking a picture, that's a part of it, of, "Hey, no, no, no. Hey, I'm just a person. I'm just a person, just like you. And I'm holding up a blanket. She's breastfeeding." You know? And I remember the guy was like, "No, dude. But I'll cut her out." And it's like, "Bro, I don't know you like that." You know what I mean? It's like, "I don't know you like that."
Noor Tagouri (18:46):
Even if even you did-
Hasan Minhaj (18:47):
I am a person. I am an IRL human being. And so I'm not just like a video game character.
Hasan Minhaj (18:57):
And I'm sure you felt that way. Noor Tagouri represents this specific thing, right? You're this type of person. And Vogue will frame you that way, or the internet will frame you that way. Those are the times where you feel out of control. You feel like you don't have a say. That's the disillusioning part of it. I feel like I'm just being a genuine, sincere person. But then I pull out this phone, and I'm not. I'm this thing now.
Noor Tagouri (19:28):
This is where things get challenging for me, because one of the recurring themes of my life has been misrepresentation. Misrepresentation of myself, misrepresentation of my community. And my frustrations have usually been with people who are telling our stories. Why can't they get it right? But it wasn't until Rep that I started asking myself, is representation really what we need?
Najma Sharif (19:58):
So my name is Najma Sharif. She/her. Or they, if you want to get spicy. And I'm a writer. I am a cultural critic. I am a pop culture analyst. And I'm just living in the world as a Somali-American Muslim woman.
Noor Tagouri (20:22):
Najma argues we don't need representation. And I needed to ask her why.
Najma Sharif (20:29):
Representation is limiting. What does representation actually mean? Does it mean representation of people who look like us? Does it mean representation of people who experience our lives? Does it mean representation of class, race? Does it mean representation of location, religion? Does it mean representation of trauma? It's too narrow.
Najma Sharif (20:50):
Representation needs to be more than symbolic, and it never has been. It's not tangible. I can't feel it. I can't see it. All I can do is, I guess, praise someone for getting in a position that matters. When we talk about tokenization, we're talking about representation. We're talking about people getting in positions of power. And we're talking about people getting in positions of influence.
Najma Sharif (21:18):
That's why I say that. I don't say it flippantly. But I'm literally like, what is the evidence of representation leading to material change? Because yes, you're a brilliant journalist. I'm a brilliant writer. Let's be brilliant together. But why aren't there more of us?
Noor Tagouri (21:38):
Najma relates tokenization and representation. And I understand why. A lot of representation or diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts result in tokenization, seeing a person only for the box you've put them in, rather than humans with an individual experience and perspective.
Noor Tagouri (22:00):
As a journalist, Aymann has to wrestle with the question of his journalistic objectivity versus his personal perspective. But what if his subjective view is not a bias to overcome, but rather a point of view that adds credibility and depth to his storytelling? With that reframe, perspective becomes key to his storytelling.
Aymann Ismail (22:28):
So yeah, everybody has a perspective. What does your perspective do for you? Is the question that I think we should really be asking ourselves. How are you using your perspective?
Noor Tagouri (22:40):
Perspective isn't limiting. Perspective is evolving and infinite. It's how my friend, Aymann, is able to tell stories about things like homophobia in the Muslim community, stereotypes about Muslim marriages, and even the Me Too movement's impact on Muslim women.
Aymann Ismail (23:01):
Now, my perspective isn't just Muslim, because nobody's that simple of a person. Is everything that everyone does responding to their religion? No, that's ridiculous. So I see myself as a kid who listens to a particular kind of music, who likes a particular brand of sneakers, who likes to skateboard, but can't do any tricks and is kind of embarrassed by that. So there's so many facets to this. And you sort of need to be comfortable with yourself, find the confidence to embrace those biases, and let that tell you what stories that you're interested in, and let that drive your curiosity.
Noor Tagouri (23:41):
So what role does objectivity play in telling the truth, truth?
Aymann Ismail (23:48):
Snap, snap, snap, snap. That's a great question. Objectivity is a lie. And I didn't always believe that. And even during that time, I told myself, "I need to be objective." Even during that time when I was making Who's Afraid, I told myself I needed to be objective. That was the goal.
Aymann Ismail (24:08):
But I think it came out of watching journalists when I was a kid fumble around. If you look back at those stories now with the modern goggles that we have today, you still see an implicit bias. And not just in what you're saying or what you're reporting, but who you're choosing to talk to, how you present this story. What part of the story do these voices come in and out of? All of that is affected by bias.
Aymann Ismail (24:38):
And bias doesn't really mean anything other than perspective. So are we going to, as journalists, have no perspective? When you think of it that way, it's so obvious that it's a farce. It's good to hold it back, but there is a lot to gain from embracing your bias and thinking about it objectively.
Noor Tagouri (25:03):
It wasn't until this chapter of Rep that I realized investigating representation naturally includes investigating the concept of objectivity. It's why it keeps coming up. And if we need to start with ourselves, then a good place to start is Aymann's suggestion, thinking about your own bias objectively. When we get a better understanding of our authentic perspective, our intention with a story becomes more clear. And the desire to be clearly seen and clearly understood is part of the foundation of telling the truth, truth.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Rep.
Noor Tagouri (25:56):
Intentional storytelling brings us intimately closer to one another. It's a mutual exchange that asks the question of all parties involved, do you see me? Hasan actively thinks about this question while he's on tour.
Hasan Minhaj (26:14):
For me, I just see the storytelling style of what I do, which is a hybrid of theatrical storytelling with standup comedy. I see it as the way I make sense of the human experience, in my experience. That's really what comedy is for me. And every show, what you'll see tonight versus what you'll see eventually in the special, it's like I'm just tweaking it ever so slightly to be like, "Hey, is the core intention of what I'm saying resonating with you?" And really, what I'm trying to ask the audience through this relationship is, "Hey, do you see me? Do you get what I'm saying? Do you understand?"
Hasan Minhaj (26:59):
So there's a line in the show where I talk about if I really trust the audience, I got to close the gap between who I am on Instagram and who I am on iMessage. And I got to give you iMessage me. Because best believe everybody that you love, that's you revere, you know IG them. But I want to know iMessage you. And iMessage you is sloppy and messy and ratchet and righteous.
Noor Tagouri (27:28):
Ratchet and righteous.
Hasan Minhaj (27:29):
Yeah. But it's like, but if I trust you, then you see all of me. So the way you all text, the way me and Beena text, if you unloaded those iMessages to the world... Can you imagine if the cloud just burst? But that's who we are. And so to me, that is art. Art is an expression of the human condition. And so my goal, inshallah, just is to continue to be an artist and continue to show the world iMessage me.
Noor Tagouri (28:01):
Showing the world iMessage me can seem terrifying until I realize that it's less about ourselves personally, and more about how telling the truth of ourselves subjectively, from our uniquely biased perspective, can also create space and give permission for others to do the same. And then we realize we aren't so uniquely alone.
Hasan Minhaj (28:28):
I think for a lot of us type A, competitive, academic, Kumon kids, we grew up in a... It's all about, what can I get?
Noor Tagouri (28:38):
Yeah.
Hasan Minhaj (28:39):
And At Your Service, to me, what really resonated with me is, "Hey, I'm just going to give this to you. Here you go. Here." It's like, "I'm just giving this to you."
Noor Tagouri (28:48):
At Your Service has become a personal philosophy of mine. And it's what we call our storytelling platform. I believe in stories as a form of service.
Hasan Minhaj (29:00):
What a really beautiful way to frame, I actually think, what art really is.
Noor Tagouri (29:04):
That's so... Wow.
Hasan Minhaj (29:05):
Hey, I'm here to give you joy. Here, I just want to give you joy. I want to give you a good time. I want to give you respite. I want to give you understanding of the human condition.
Noor Tagouri (29:14):
Like when I say, "At your service," and I give you this story, I am recognizing the entity of the story as its own thing, and saying, "This is so precious. And also, this doesn't belong to me."
Hasan Minhaj (29:27):
Oh, cool.
Noor Tagouri (29:29):
"It's also for you, and it's also for you." It really is through this lens of abundance.
Hasan Minhaj (29:34):
I hope we always remember that. You know what I mean? Because it's crazy. And maybe this is both my Islamic, Muslim upbringing meeting who I am as a person now, is I also have come to realize, I'm one stroll away from being forgotten. Like, yo, for real. You're just like, "Comedian Hasan Minhaj dies." And there's like, whoa, Pete Davidson has a bubble. It's just over.
Noor Tagouri (30:03):
100%.
Hasan Minhaj (30:03):
So I might as well hopefully be of service to people, or be a good friend, hit you back on text. That's all I can really control.
Noor Tagouri (30:14):
Oral historian, Zaheer Ali, tells me a storyteller should offer their audience three things, representation, authenticity, and intimacy.
Zaheer Ali (30:26):
Representation is, this person comes from our community and is able to bring forward our stories, our ideas to the broader public, right? They can speak in places, in ways, to people, that maybe we can't, because they have access in ways that we don't. So they speak for us. They stand in for us. They tell our stories because we can't tell them. That's representation.
Zaheer Ali (31:10):
That's not enough, so we also need authenticity. Not only do we need representation, but we need authenticity. We need people who are genuinely of our community who are telling the stories, because they have themselves lived those stories. That's authenticity, that this is real to them, right?
Zaheer Ali (31:33):
But I would argue we need another factor, which is intimacy. That our storytellers can't just be representative of us, they can't just tell stories that are authentic to them, they must be in relation to us. That's what intimacy means, to be in relationship with.
Zaheer Ali (31:53):
So when I interview someone and like do their oral history, I am establishing a relationship with that person of trust. That trust extends beyond the point of when I hit stop on the recording.
Noor Tagouri (32:12):
One of the reasons I started At Your Service was because I didn't feel like I could tell stories as openly as I wanted to within the constraints of traditional media. The way I think about it is story first, media second. Podcast or video isn't always the best way to convey a message. And if the story is priority, then I think collaboration and telling a story is key. Najma thinks so, too.
Najma Sharif (32:43):
Collaboration is radicalism. It's revolutionary. I know a lot of creatives, which is something I've been contending with, right? A lot of Muslim creatives, particularly, we feel such a type of way about reaching out or letting our friends reach out to other people.
Noor Tagouri (33:01):
Rep is a collaboration with iHeart, with School of Humans, and with one of my favorite writers, Zaron Burnett. This series wouldn't exist without them. And while working on this series, it's been so important to share with each person I speak to why their work means so much to me. When a body of work makes me feel seen, I want the person who delivered it to know I see them, too.
Najma Sharif (33:28):
I have been just fighting for people to get along, people to work together. Collaboration, to me, is the most radical aspect of artistic expression right now. We don't even have to have the same politic, we just have to have the same vision for the world.
Najma Sharif (33:45):
Me personally, as a Black Muslim woman, I want Muslim artists collaborating. I want Black artists collaborating. I want Black and Muslim artists collaborating. I want Black Muslim artists collaborating. I'm in such an interesting vantage point where I'm like, let's get along. We have so much shit to do. What are we stopping for?
Najma Sharif (34:05):
We have so much more to accomplish through collaboration than we do with division and scarcity. And with collaboration, you kind of dispel scarcity, because you're like, "I want to work with my friends." It's not just my name on a byline or my name on a video or my name on a podcast. It's all my girls. It's all my boys. It's all my girls, boys, and theys. Let's go.
Noor Tagouri (34:33):
Collaboration and connection, that's how we document truthful, representative stories. One of Aymann's approaches to collaboration in telling a difficult story is finding what he calls the mayor of the corner.
Aymann Ismail (34:51):
It really came into play a couple years ago. After George Floyd was murdered in Minneapolis, I went down. It was like an instinct that I had to go and like tell the story of the neighborhood, because I came from a neighborhood not too different from that area. I grew up in Newark, New Jersey. Gun violence is not unfamiliar, unfortunately. It's just part of my experience. And I told myself that the journalists who were going down and doing what I call parachute reporting, where they just drive by, do a day of recording, and then leave, I was like, "That's not doing it justice."
Noor Tagouri (35:27):
If he wanted to find the story, he had to get to know the community.
Aymann Ismail (35:32):
And I spent the next three, four days just in that intersection, walking around, talking to everybody, not just for interviews, but just getting to know them and getting a sense for, who are the players in this corner? And that sort of goes back to my Newark experience, where I know that every corner has its players, and every corner is run by people.
Aymann Ismail (35:56):
So I went to the gas station, talked to some people there, walked four blocks up, talked to the deli person there, talked to the regulars at the corner store where George Floyd was last. And then I spoke to a couple other reporters, just asking them, "What is it like to talk to people here? What are your feelings?" And this is all work that I did before I actually pulled out a recorder and talked to anybody.
Aymann Ismail (36:22):
And the real magic happened when I met one person who claimed to be the mayor of the corner. And that's who you're really looking for when you, when you show up to these spots. It's unofficial. Nobody might recognize that title. Nobody might respect them that way. But somebody who feels that way is a good person to talk to for a story like this.
Aymann Ismail (36:46):
I only use one line of his quotes, but his access, everyone that he introduced me to, immediately trusted me. Every person who was basically walking me around and trying to explain something to me gave me another person to talk to. And you chase those leads. You don't just say, "Okay, I got it." And then you go home, and you write your story. No. When somebody says, "You should talk to this person," you should really talk to that person.
Aymann Ismail (37:14):
I talked to the people who owned the store where George Floyd last was. And they were like, you should talk to my brother, who really runs this side of the business. And I was like, "Okay." And then I went to go talk to somebody else, who was like, "Oh, you should talk to this person." The Abumayyalehs, that's their last name.
Aymann Ismail (37:32):
So I interviewed every single brother, because it's four brothers, four Palestinian brothers who run that store together. I interviewed all of them, some of them multiple times. I interviewed the security guard. I interviewed some of the people who work behind the counter.
Noor Tagouri (37:47):
It's through Aymann's collaboration with the community that he was able to fill in the context and nuances in one of the most widely-reported stories of 2020.
Aymann Ismail (37:59):
And I ended up interviewing the person who made the 911 call, young Black kid who became suicidal after what had happened. He still had to see all of the consequence of that 911 call, and all of the armchair discussion about what consequence it has in this country when you do call the cops on a Black person. He was Black himself. He was a 16, 17 year old Black kid who had no idea about any of this stuff, because he was an immigrant from West Africa. He had just gotten to this country six months before that had happened, so he had idea.
Aymann Ismail (38:36):
And it was just this insane experience, as a journalist, to leverage my bias, as a kid who grew up in a hood, to get access to this other hood that I've never been to, that I'm not familiar with, but still get that perspective as if I was local, because I talked to people who told me to talk to the next person, who told me to talk to the next person, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that experience really changed the way that I think about what a good, journalistic story is.
Noor Tagouri (39:03):
A good, journalistic story doesn't stop at a press release or the first few reports that are produced. It comes from speaking to the evolving parts of a story, and evolving the reporting with it, even if it's messy.
Aymann Ismail (39:19):
If it's messy, tell a messy story. So that's when I learned, basically, to tell every part of the story in my story, and not just focus on the things that I think make something more readable or easier to understand. It's all about using what you know to find out what you don't know.
Noor Tagouri (39:43):
Using what you know to find out what you don't know. That takes time, time many journalists don't have in the 24-hour news cycle. When I worked in local television news, I had to produce multiple stories a day in time for our evening newscast. Each news package had to be two to three minutes long. And that's the job for most local news reporters, multiple stories a day with a very limited time to share them, let alone time to build trust with the people whose stories you are telling.
Noor Tagouri (40:19):
Hasan's show, Patriot Act, felt like an antidote to the work I did as a local TV reporter. He had a very specific intention while interrogating topics. We talk about, like student loan debt, the opioid crisis, and even the streetwear brand, Supreme.
Hasan Minhaj (40:38):
The goal of Patriot Act was to try to pull out 30,000 feet and try to provide a 20-minute to 27-minute deep dive that gives you larger context on Saudi Arabia, insulin pricing, student loan debt. Prashanth, the director of the show, he says this. And I love this quote he uses to describe great comedians. "They're able to provide moments of moral clarity during social panic."
Hasan Minhaj (41:04):
But just a counter to that, there is also the weekly churn of it. Okay, what's the next story? And you don't get to reflect on a ton of, "Hey, what do I want to say?"
Noor Tagouri (41:17):
Hasan's comedy specials, Homecoming King and The King's Jester, are ways he gives his viewers additional context into who he is as a human. He also enjoys collaborating with his audience.
Hasan Minhaj (41:32):
You watch Homecoming King, if you see this show, there's also a lot of stuff that I just want to talk about the human condition that a show like that's not going to allow you to do. You know what I mean? But what I love the most is being, say, in here, Kingston, and seeing how Kingston is going to react to the show, versus Radio City.
Noor Tagouri (41:50):
So it's about the people.
Hasan Minhaj (41:51):
Yeah.
Noor Tagouri (41:52):
Yeah.
Hasan Minhaj (41:52):
And it's really cool being like, "Okay, I'm in Florida. I'm in Tampa, Florida." There's not a lot of people, perhaps, in the audience with my life experience. But how is this going to resonate in Tampa? That, to me, is really interesting, because I don't want the story to just resonate in a very niche bubble. I want it to be able to be ontologically truth.
Hasan Minhaj (42:15):
The core essence of what I'm talking about, those themes, fertility, fatherhood, freedom of speech, I want some random dude in Kingston to be like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. Oh, I see that." The same way when I like grew up listening to music, watching basketball, listening to certain artists, watching... They didn't have my life experience. But I so felt what they were saying, because there was these core human truths.
Noor Tagouri (42:43):
Fertility, fatherhood, and freedom of speech, universal concepts that influence all of us. For Aymann, becoming a father forced him to examine some of his own stories.
Aymann Ismail (42:58):
I'm a dad now. I just had a baby this summer. And it was like a roller coaster of emotions. And I didn't exactly handle it well. Let me just put it that way. I had a panic attack for the first time in my life when the baby came home. And it was a mess. I had over prepared. I had spreadsheets and charts and pie charts and stuff. It was really embarrassing.
Aymann Ismail (43:22):
And my wife was like, "Yo." And she looked at me. And she started tearing up. And she was like, "Who are you? What are you doing? You just brought home this baby, this new life. And you're obsessed over your freaking charts and your spreadsheets and these things that you printed out." She was like, "Stop looking at that, and look at your baby. Enjoy him." And I couldn't do that, because I had over prepared. I couldn't see what was right in front of me.
Noor Tagouri (43:54):
He didn't know it then, but Aymann's panic was in reaction to his own trauma. He was a new father already trying to protect his son from a reductive story that almost sent Aymann to Rikers island.
Aymann Ismail (44:10):
So I sat down and I thought, okay, what does this have to do with my life experience? And then I thought about all of the pain that I had to feel from feeling reduced to being one version of myself, being told who I was, and how that made me feel. We don't have to get into it. But I was arrested for a pretty serious charge. And it was trespassing. It wasn't like murder or anything. Relax. Trespassing on a bridge to take pictures. And the judge immediately went into terrorist mode and thought that I was planning to blow the city up. Do you want me to tell this story? Should I... Are you interested in this?
Noor Tagouri (44:53):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
Rep.
Aymann Ismail (45:07):
This was the most significant moment in my life, where I felt like my identity was taken away from me. And then another one was assigned to me that I didn't identify with. So this is what happened. I saw myself as an edgy, New York City, cool guy photographer. I was riding my skateboard around the city, chatting up everybody, asking them if they had access to places that nobody else had access to. It's insane. I had this period where I had just found the keys to the city. And the key to the city was just asking people to take you some place that nobody else had access to. And I was getting the best pictures, you wouldn't believe.
Noor Tagouri (45:47):
It's spring 2015. And someone's just told Aymann that they can get him to the top of the Williamsburg Bridge.
Aymann Ismail (45:56):
I asked him, "Yo, can I go document you while you climb this bridge?" And he was like, "Hell yeah." He's a young kid, blond kid. He looked like a Viking. We called him Thor as a joke.
Noor Tagouri (46:07):
So they get to the top of the bridge.
Aymann Ismail (46:09):
But you can't hear anything because it's all just wind. And it's like... I felt like a baby being returned to the womb. It was like... It was sick.
Noor Tagouri (46:19):
And the storyteller in him documented it.
Aymann Ismail (46:21):
Took some cool-ass pictures. Published them, because as a journalist, I was like, "This is cool story." The New York Times linked to it. The New York Post wrote about it. It was on television. CBS did a news report. I felt really good.
Aymann Ismail (46:38):
Months later, I get a phone call from my roommate being like, "Dude, there's cops here. There's four detectives. And they're wearing trench coats. And they're asking to talk to you." And I was like, "Okay. Don't let them in. Hide my hard drives. Find my computer and shove it into something so that they don't find it." I got on the phone with the guy who left a card, and he was like, "Yo, we got everything on you. You got to turn yourself in today, or we're going to come get you."
Aymann Ismail (47:07):
I'd never been in a situation like this before. I've never been arrested for anything ever. So I was scared to death. I was like, "Oh no, what are they going to do to me?" So I turned myself in. They show me the article that I'd written. And I was like, "Look, I don't have a lawyer here. My lawyer is on the way. I'm going to sit quiet." I've seen Law and Order. Okay. I've seen The Wire. I know that I'm not supposed to talk.
Aymann Ismail (47:32):
They take my belt, take my shoelaces. And I don't see daylight for three days. They basically stick me in the tombs, underneath the courthouse, where you're supposed to get arraigned. You're supposed to see a judge. But it's funny, when I go there, I run into who but Thor? I see Thor there. And we were like, "Oh, what's up, man? What's going on?" I was so thankful because I was... I was so scared, Noor, I was so scared.
Aymann Ismail (47:55):
But you know what's funny? The first thing I say when I walk in was I just let out loud, "As-salamu alaykum." And everybody turns around. They go, "Wa alaykumu s-salam." I'm like, "Oh shit, my people." And so that made me feel better, too. Yeah, it was beautiful. But also terrifying, because we're all here.
Noor Tagouri (48:18):
The we he's referring to is other incarcerated Muslims. Even inside the tombs, he was able to find community. But then, that same thought became frightening. Why were there so many Muslims locked up with him?
Aymann Ismail (48:33):
And then detectives show up, and they're like, "Hey, do you know about any plots to blow up the city? What mosque do you pray at? Who are your cousins? What country are your parents from?" I was like, "You guys, I live in the city. You don't think that if somebody were to come to me and be like, 'Hey, you want to blow something up?' I wouldn't snap on them right now and call the cops? 'Do I want to die?' Is what you're asking."
Aymann Ismail (49:01):
So I was offended. And that's when I realized I'm not a photographer here. They didn't catch a journalist who was somewhere where he shouldn't have been. They caught a Muslim kid where he was somewhere where he shouldn't have been. And we're going to use the leverage that we have on this Muslim kid to do police work on the Muslim community.
Aymann Ismail (49:22):
And I was like, oh my god. When that clicked, I was exhausted. And that's when the fear got replaced with just a core sadness. And I just was angry. And I hated everything. And I wanted to just break out and run away and just be a recluse and never talk to anyone again. That's really how I felt.
Noor Tagouri (49:45):
It's how most of us would feel if our humanity was stripped away and we were forced to live inside the confines of someone else's story of us, one based on fear.
Aymann Ismail (49:57):
But then when I saw the judge, finally, he was like, "You know, this is a very serious thing. And how do we know you weren't going to blow it up?" And he was like, "If you get in trouble, something like this again, we're going to deport you." He said he was going to deport me, Noor.
Aymann Ismail (50:13):
And I was like, you're just giving me an identity that I don't identify with. And I never saw myself this way, ever. But they do. And that's all they see. So that's who I am now.
Noor Tagouri (50:27):
Day three arrives, and Aymann is put on a bus getting ready to be sent to Rikers Island, a New York City prison notorious for its brutality, neglect, and corruption. With divine timing, his editor gets him out on bail.
Aymann Ismail (50:45):
And that was all because of who they thought I was, nothing to do with who I am. In the end, Noor, they just gave me community service. Guess what the white kid got? Nothing! I love him, though. I don't like calling him a white kid, because he's so much more than that, too. Thor.
Noor Tagouri (51:07):
Being misrepresented in such a traumatizing way was still living inside of Aymann when he became a father six years later.
Aymann Ismail (51:17):
The lesson that I learned there was... And this is why I'm so afraid now that I have a Muslim kid who's my son, is how do I prepare him for something like that? How do I make his life easier than mine was? He's growing up in the same area that I grew up in. He's growing up two blocks from my childhood home. I love Newark. I'm never leaving Newark. It's home.
Aymann Ismail (51:43):
The fear that I have, I realized the fear I had was about control and wanting to live this kid's life for him. And I don't know what his experience is going to be. I don't know what his relationship to Islam is going to be. I don't even know if Islamophobia will be as big a problem as it was because of journalists like you and me.
Aymann Ismail (52:08):
And so that was a very emotional depression that I had for the first three months of my son's life, where I was just beating myself up, trying to figure out, how do I do this? Can I do this? Should I leave? Should I raise him in a Muslim country? Should I have named him Jeff? Should I have given him a name like Mike?
Noor Tagouri (52:38):
For Aymann, he decided he can't control what happens. So instead, he'll focus on his child right now in this moment, because that's all any of us ever has, right now in this moment.
Aymann Ismail (52:53):
But as soon as I just looked at him, and he was just sitting there, sucking on his finger, pooping his pants, I was like, this is who he is right now. I should be paying more attention to that, enjoying him more, laughing in his direction so he sees my smile. And when I feel sad or tired, not trying to hide it from him, either. Exposing him to the whole range of emotions that his father has. And wanting to just have a relationship that is more than just caregiver and care receiver. It's something that I think will help me, because it's really about me more than it is about him. Something that'll help me be more prepared and more ready to be the dad that he needs when he needs me to be. So that's the battle, and that's where I landed.
Aymann Ismail (53:56):
And I think it's kind of related to everything we were talking about, about letting ourselves be taken by the story, finding a way to conquer our own egos, stop trying to be the perfect, best writer, and just allow what's happening in front of us to expose us to its beauty and its hardship and its rawness and its godliness.
Noor Tagouri (54:25):
American Muslims aren't the only people who struggle between narratives forced upon us and the ones we actually identify with. But the misrepresentation of Muslims has harmed all of us. Living in a constant state of fear isn't fun for anyone. And struggling with conflicting narratives is actually why I felt the need to do this work. In Aymann's words, I needed to figure out my own truth, truth so that I can better understand the truth, truth of those around me.
Aymann Ismail (54:59):
When we're constantly having to think about these things and explain these things and think about how we reflect on it and... Ugh, it feels like a trap because there's so much more to study there, that I'm so exhausted of the story that forces us to choose a side between being Muslim and being Islamophobic. It's just not reflective of the country, and it's not reflective of our experience. It's a lie. Is that all we are? I don't think so.
Noor Tagouri (55:29):
So then, how do we tell more representative stories of Muslims?
Aymann Ismail (55:33):
The first thing that my mind goes to is that Ramy Youssef joke. He has this one joke about how the day of the Muslim ban, the reporter was like, "This is a sad day for Muslims." And he was like, "Well, actually, I had a pretty good day that day." And he talks about how he just got cast for this Taco Cell commercial, and he was like all excited.
Aymann Ismail (55:55):
And I think about that a lot because... Ugh, the Muslim experience is so... It's a trap to even call it that, because what is the Muslim experience? What is it? I don't know. I grew up Muslim. I have my experience. But does that mean that I relate to a Muslim who grew up in Nashville, or a Muslim who grew up in Texas, or in a Muslim who grew up in Bangladesh and immigrated here? No. We all have our different experiences.
Noor Tagouri (56:26):
It's not that we don't need representation. Seeing Muslims and Arabs across media has been so healing for me. But every person is different and has their own unique life experience. One person cannot be representative of an entire group. It's harmful, dehumanizing. And frankly, it's boring.
Noor Tagouri (56:50):
While working on Rep, I've immersed myself in the work of my friends and peers, watching their shows, listening to their music, reading their books, witnessing their unlocks, and knowing they're going through an individualized, yet similar, journey as my own, and that there's room for all of us.
Noor Tagouri (57:13):
So this is my pitch to you. Commit to a relationship with story. Acknowledge them. Give them space to evolve. And whenever you can, choose to engage with the authentic story of others. Because the truth, truth connects all of us.
Noor Tagouri (57:39):
You're about to hit a stage.
Hasan Minhaj (57:41):
Yeah. About to do that. We're about to commune. It's going to be great. My first time performing at Kingston, we'll see how it goes.
Hasan Minhaj (57:55):
Good night [inaudible 00:57:55]. I love you guys. Good night. I love you.
Noor Tagouri (58:11):
Rep is a production of At Your Service, School of Humans, and iHeartPodcasts. The show is written and produced by me, Noor Tagouri, and Zaron Burnett. Editing, production, sound design, and scoring by Josh Fisher. Theme song written and composed by Maimouna Youssef, AKA Mumu Fresh. Our senior producer is Amelia Brock. Our associate producers are Tyler Donahue and Betsy Cardenas. Mix and master by Baheed Frazier. Audio assembly by Mary Dooe. Fact checking by Marisa Brown. Our executive producers are Adam Kaif, Zaron Burnett, Jason English, and me, Noor Tagouri.
Noor Tagouri (58:50):
Special thanks to Virginia Prescott from School of Humans and Will Pearson from iHeartPodcasts. I'd also like to thank Hasan Minhaj, Aymann Ismail, Najma Sharif, Zahir Ali, Laura Albast, and Abraham Lefkowitz, for trusting us with this story.
Noor Tagouri (59:06):
And of course, in memory of Shireen Abu Akleh.
Noor Tagouri (59:09):
If this podcast resonated with you and you'd like to support the show, please rate and review, and share it with someone else you think may enjoy it. Tune in to Rep next time. I'm Noor Tagouri. As always, at your service.