(Transcript) Ep 6: The Interlude

Rep – “The Interlude”
June 27, 2022

Noor (00:00):

Positive stress. That's so interesting, because you don't really ever say that. I don't ever say that.

Zaron (00:04):

I know A lot of people don't believe in things like positive tension and positive stress and those are two things I often believe in.

Noor (00:11):

Yeah. I completely agree with you. I guess I never thought about it being a type of thing to think. It just is how I always felt, because I actually enjoy some certain types of stress sometimes. It's like solving a math problem. When you're cracking it and your brain is so stressed out, but you feel it moving.

Zaron (00:35):

I'm so close. [inaudible 00:00:36].

Noor (00:36):

Exactly. It was a breakthrough. So our neighbor, who is this Republican, hunts all day every day, loves to cook.

Zaron (00:55):

Nick?

Noor (00:55):

Nick. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick. Was teaching us bow and arrow and stuff like that. We were dropping off some Tupperware to him because he had made venison chili for us. It was really good. We returned it with some Toni's own cookies, Adam's mom's cookies. We got to talking, and he was telling me how Rep is the first podcast he's ever listened to. He apparently even left a review and stuff, and was asking me about the first episode about the Back To The Future scene. And he says, "What you were saying about Libya and the Back To The Future and how when we saw it in the movies and people started..." He didn't completely finish the thought, he went straight into, "Well, my daughter is watching Stranger Things, and in Stranger Things the Russians are the bad guys, and she just hates Russians right now. She absolutely hates Russians." And I was like, "Uh-huh. Yeah."

Noor (02:06):

He had had this really huge unlock. I was watching his brain just work. I was able to say, "Yeah. I was always already thinking about that whenever I would see Russians on television, because I knew that was happening to Muslims and Arabs." What I told him was, "The thing is, it's important for us to distinguish between governments and people. They're not the same thing." When Trump was in office, I had so many people who would reach out to me saying, "I want to study abroad in America, but is it really as dangerous as it seems? My family doesn't want me to go." I was just like, wow, this is representation of America right now at this point is that with a Trump presidency we're living in this dystopia, and it's really scary.

Noor (03:06):

Granted, of course, some of their concerns were valid because there had been shootings and exchange students had been killed. That is something that happens. I remember I'll never forget that. I forgot which shooting it was specifically, unfortunately, but I just remember that there was an Indian exchange student, and I was just like, their family is going to get that call. And that is going to be what America is to them forever. I was telling him the difference between the people and their governments. I mentioned the Trump thing and the exchange students, and he goes, "Well, I am a Republican." And then he goes into how when Trump was in office it ruined a bunch of his friendships and relationships because he just had all of these people come out... He gave all of these disgusting people permission to spew hate. And he was going into this whole thing about how he really couldn't reconcile that.

Noor (04:17):

I was just like, whoa. I've heard of these kinds of conversations before, so it wasn't a surprise. It was just so interesting that he started the conversation about being focused on this thing about the Back To The Future and how he just saw it happen to his daughter watching Stranger Things, which is a new show that my little brother and sister watch, and I watch. Do you remember when I went to Tennessee and covered that story about this Muslim cemetery? I think that may have been before you had done the interview. It was a viral thing that happened because I was covering this story in Tennessee and got attacked by this group of white people.

Zaron (05:17):

Mm-hmm. I think we touched on this because it's not like when you talked at the school, but it's...

Noor (05:24):

Oh no, yeah. It's not the South Dakota one. So this one specifically I was speaking at Vanderbilt University. And at the time when I was in college, when I was in journalism school, I was also touring full time. I got permission from my professors that I would just rent the school equipment, the huge broadcast camera and the tripod, and I would take it with me wherever I went so that I could just do my assignments and cover something other than something that's happening on campus.

Noor (05:57):

I remember this one. I did this, and after this whole situation happened, this one student on Twitter tweeted, "It's just journalism school. It's not that serious." We had to all follow each other on Twitter for school. So it was funny. But anyway, I took it very seriously. I knew about this story in Murphysboro, Tennessee. It was that the Muslim community there, who one of my friends was a part of because she's from there, they were trying to open a cemetery. There was this huge protest against Muslims having a cemetery. There was this court hearing that happened to be happening while I was there. I decided that I wanted to do that as one of my assignments, because I had been following the story because of my friend who was a part of that community.

Noor (06:47):

Hat day I'm wearing black and white polka dot pants and orange neon flowy shirt and a black hijab that had a zipper border. And I had the border around my face, or I may have had that actually tied. And my friend goes, "Don't wear that scarf. Don't wear a black hijab." And I'm like, "What? Why?" To me just stylistically, fashion wise, I was like, this was what goes with my outfit. I'm not going to change it. And she said that it wasn't safe and it wasn't smart. I don't remember exactly what she said, but something about it being harmful to the Muslim community. It's bad representation or something like that. It was based on media representation.

Noor (07:37):

I go to this story and I get attacked by this group of people. I turn my camera off for a second. And then I remember my mentor always said, "Never turn your camera off." So I turned it right back on and I had this guy who had piercing blue eyes and a very brightly shaved head. He kept saying that I worked for a terrorist organization. He was like, "You're probably part of the MSA," which is the Muslim Student Association, because they thought that was a terrorist organization. And the funny thing is, I never was actually a part of the MSA. So I was just like, actually that I'm not, but okay. And I was like, "This is actually for my journalism 365 class. I can show you my assignment if you don't believe me."

Noor (08:27):

I was pulling up my assignment and showing it to them. This woman, who's a GOP candidate at the time, she was the one who was freaking out and saying that, "I don't want to be on a something list." She didn't want to be on an Iranian list. And then she said, "I'm tired of us being put in the back of the bus." I'll never forget that. I'm sitting here, I'm so shocked. I'm 18. And on our way out, she looks at me and she goes, "You terrify me." And it was genuine fear. I remember feeling really down after that happened. It turned into this huge viral moment and stuff. I remember I felt really sad, and I couldn't really figure out why. And then I just suppressed it.

Noor (09:29):

It wasn't until this conversation right now with Nick that I had this unlock where I realized, oh, Rep is in response to that experience. Because what I realized is that she was genuinely afraid of me. The thing is, nobody ever wants to make someone afraid. I don't want someone to be afraid of me. I would never want to instill fear in somebody. That doesn't feel-

Zaron (10:07):

Only when I want extra seating on a plane. Other than that...

Noor (10:11):

Exactly. Exactly. That's so true. I realized it when I was talking to Nick and I was like, people have this genuine fear. It's a real fear. While it isn't our fault, it's not American Muslim's fault, and it's wrong, that can also exist alongside it being a genuine fear.

Zaron (10:38):

Yeah. Well, it's an irrational fear. It's a genuine fear. It's a fear of their own imagination, because they don't know what they're afraid of. So they're only afraid of this boogeyman. And then the boogeyman wears your face.

Noor (10:52):

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, wow. Basically, the reason I realized how this was actually what Rep was, is because... The first question that he asked, Nick, with his face, was just like... He was gaping the whole time. The first question that he asked was, "But why do you think she was so afraid?" He was genuinely wondering that. And me and Adam look at each other, and then we look at him, and we go, "Because stories. Literally, because stories." That is why Rep needed to start out as, for me, the intention of how the misrepresentation of Muslims in American media is hurting all of us. It's not about just because we're Muslim that's what's happening. It's a case study to show you that fear of anybody through stories, we all end up living in fear. That woman is not having a good time being afraid of me. I am definitely not having a good time being the recipient of her fear.

Zaron (12:28):

The only thing that she gets out of it is the world briefly makes sense to her because she knows who the bad person is and she's the good person. That's all it is. For a moment it gets to make sense.

Noor (12:39):

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Huh. Wow. I mean, that just goes back to all of us looking for the truth truth, or looking for answers.

Zaron (12:53):

It's also why Donald Trump is such a genius politician is because he gives answers to these people in very simple terms, and they can go along with it. And everyone else makes fun of them. It's so smart. None of that fucking matters. The smart people talk to each other, and the rest of the world moves through emotions and beliefs and momentums. I mean, I'm not suggesting that people should emulate him, but they should understand why his thing works. That's all I'm saying. And then people should be able to do that in their way, which is to speak to people's emotions, speak to where they live in their beliefs. And then get them to be not afraid. Because you can make a belief be positive, or a belief be negative, but it'll never really be rational. It's a belief. It's below that.

Noor (13:36):

Wow. If you know your story, and you can unpack your own fears, you are of course forced to start questioning your beliefs, because that's a part of that process. To know yourself-

Zaron (13:57):

And then also building new ones. And that's a really healthy part of the process, because suddenly you have things that make you feel good because you believe them.

Noor (14:07):

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Zaron (14:13):

And in the same senses, beliefs are always grounded in emotions, right? So emotions can seem reasonable. They're not rational, but they're reasonable. It makes sense. I feel this way because of this. So it makes sense, but it's not rational. You can't throw facts at it and correct it. It's just purely, this felt like this and that's why I think this. That's the limit of its reason.

Zaron (14:34):

But because of that, you can get people to go in lots of different directions. You just have to make it make sense at that level. I hate to fucking quote this one, but for a long time for centuries the idea that you should turn your other cheek when you were struck, a lot of Christians went with that. I mean that's motivated Martin Luther King Jr, that and what Gandhi did. But between the idea of nonviolence comes from this Jesus idea of when you're struck with violence, turn your other cheek and basically greet more violence, be ready for more violence rather than to become violent. That idea worked because people believed it. They had no proof in their world. They're like, oh this sucks. It's painful. But they believed that it was something more enduring. It was their soul, it was heaven. So the physical pain we was beneath the soul, right?

Zaron (15:28):

We don't have that anymore, so you can't make those arguments. But those are the same types of arguments that work. It's a belief. It's a belief system. Right now our belief system is very earth based. It's based on politics and grudges and short views of history and news stories. But it has the power of conviction and the belief of faith and of religion. And that's why you see the cultishness around Donald Trump. That's why you see people willing to die for this stuff. You see all this religiosity that has no venting and no direction.

Zaron (15:58):

Some people like Trump realize it because he's a salesman. He's basically a huckster. So he loves a fucking religious convention. He can go in there and sell them because he knows... That's why he's, oh, look, I'll hold up the Bible. He knows the symbols are all... They know because they don't read the Bible. They don't know the stuff. They don't know it anymore than he does so he'll go around and symbolize. I wish more people could get into understanding. I'm not suggesting we drop down to this level, but we have to understand that that's the level where most of the conversation right now is occurring in the culture.

Noor (16:26):

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And the aha moment that I had when I got home, that I had right before when I was supposed to get on this call with you, was a flashback, which was that story that I start the episode out about my professor saying, "Are you sure? It only takes one jerk," was in response to what happened in Tennessee. I forgot that.

Zaron (16:57):

Oh wow.

Noor (16:58):

I completely shut that story out. And then basically-

Zaron (17:07):

They weren't warning you based on their imagination. They were warning you based on something that had just occurred?

Noor (17:11):

Yes. And I didn't even remember that. I didn't even remember that.

Zaron (17:16):

That's [inaudible 00:17:16]. Yeah.

Noor (17:19):

It's so wild because he was the person who... I have so many stories with him. I had reached out to him so many times asking to shadow him. Do you remember that?

Zaron (17:31):

I remember you were mentioning it. Yeah.

Noor (17:33):

He kept saying no. He kept saying no. He kept saying no. Then I finally said, "Can I send you questions? You can write back answers." And he said, "You can send me questions, but I just won't be writing back answers." And I was like, cool, cool, cool, cool. So every question I asked was a paragraph. And in the paragraph I was telling him something about myself, and then asking a question relating to the work that he did, because he was also a novelist and stuff. His response was, he was so impressed by my questions that he said, "I didn't realize they were going to be so in depth and thorough." Something like that. He invited me to dinner and to watch Wolf Blitzer's show live broadcast and meet Wolf Blitzer, because that's who he wrote for. And then I could ask all the questions that I wanted.

Noor (18:24):

The funny thing is, he did take me out to dinner. We had dinner at the Union Station, the train station in DC. I didn't ask a single question. He asked me all the questions. He was so fascinated. He had never been a professor before. So that happened. And it wasn't until the next semester that he became a professor. It may have been the next semester or two semesters after I had met him and we had briefly stayed in touch. So that was the full circle moment.

Noor (18:57):

The story I had written in my head was that on the last day he said that because of how he felt the first time we met where he was like, "Are you sure you can't just take it off for the TV and put it back on?" And then the last day of school that happened. And it always stuck with me that he asked me that question. I was so almost a little bit hurt, because I was like, look at how far I've come from when I asked to shadow you to where we are. I'm touring. I did a story on the expansion of Mecca that I shot on my iPhone. I got hundreds of thousands of views. I did that for my class. I've literally illegally filmed in Mecca to do a story for my class.

Zaron (19:40):

That's impressive.

Noor (19:41):

Yeah. That also may have been when that girl tweeted that I was doing the most, because I was. It was because I was trying to make my reel at the time. But anyway, all that to say, years after that happened me and him were friends on Facebook and something happened to me. It was another one. Oh, it may have been when my photo was being used for the Pulse Nightclub shooter, or shooter's wife, or something like that. One of those times. He posted an article about it and just wrote something supportive. And then somebody commented he had this handlebar mustache and huge cowboy hat and said, "If she wants to be respected in this country, then she should take her costume off." And then my professor commented back and he said, "Maybe she'll take her costume off if you take off yours first," or something like that.

Zaron (20:42):

You stop doing your Yosemite Sam cosplay.

Noor (20:49):

Yeah. Exactly. I just remembered all of that, and I realized, oh, that's why we are doing Rep is because I know that for me, a starting point, because it's not just all of it, but a starting point for addressing the fear that people have of other people that they just don't understand is starting with the stories that we're telling about those people. It is through media representation. We have such a consuming relationship with media now, especially now, that if we don't start with our stories... And that's why you have to start with the story of yourselves, because once you know yourself intimately you know that I would never want somebody to lump me in with another person, because I am so uniquely me. I'm not going to do that to other people. And that's how I can have a conversation like that with Nick, because I don't lump him in with everybody else.

Zaron (21:51):

You only need a group if you're doing a group project. We don't really need all these groups.

Noor (21:56):

You only need a group if you're doing a group project. Exactly. And look at how hard those are.

Zaron (22:01):

Right?

Noor (22:03):

I was always the person who ended up doing all the work.

Zaron (22:07):

I resist labels, but I don't mind affixing adjective. So it'll be a person who is American, that's an adjective. It's not a definition. If you want, you can say, oh, you're an American. But what is that? But if I say the person who's American means they come from America, that's literally how I'm using it. So then that means it tells you something. I wish we could get the culture there, but it seems like right now it's the opposite. Everybody's now getting faster and faster at labeling themselves and diagnosing themselves and labeling others.

Noor (22:33):

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that is so true. All this to say too, that what I realized is that I didn't have an outro for this episode because I thought we can end it on this Hessen if we get permission to use it. I was really confident about that. Just now it hit me that I had to completely let go, because the last episode, since the beginning I keep thinking about the outro all the time, I had to completely let go of thinking about an outro. That's how I subconsciously convinced myself. I was like, Hessen is the outro, I'm not doing it so that I could give space for this download.

Noor (23:16):

Because that story is the outro of finishing why my professor said that in the beginning, and why we have to really start asking ourselves who's benefiting from these stories? We have to start really interrogating that, because we're all hurting. Somebody has to be benefiting. And if we can recognize that, maybe we can start working on our own healing and not accepting those storylines, or being more inquisitive, or just really starting to get to know ourselves. And then I was like, wow, this is perfect because this wraps the first half of the series. And the next one is opening with the greatest export. And in true Rep fashion, we have to go back and we have to examine ourselves. That's why we're going to begin with examining the story of America, and this idea that maybe story is America's greatest export.

Zaron (24:19):

Exactly. I think you got it really neatly. I like it.

Noor (24:25):

That's the breakthrough, Zaron.

Zaron (24:29):

It's a good full cycle.

Noor (24:33):

Yeah. It feels like you've reached your destination.

Zaron (24:40):

Totally.

Noor (24:44):

But this happens to be a rest stop.

Zaron (24:44):

Yeah. Both for that episode, because you've tied your intro and your outro together so you have a nice circle there, but then also for all the episodes, it ties together. So the whole first half has a nice feel.

Noor (24:53):

Yeah. What do you think? Where did this episode take you?

Zaron (24:59):

Which one? Episode five?

Noor (25:02):

Yeah. Where are you at right now in this journey?

Zaron (25:08):

I'm deep into episode seven and eight. I'm down the road in terms of my thinking.

Noor (25:11):

Right. I want to know where you're at.

Zaron (25:13):

Oh. My head is still in the America's Greatest Export because I want to keep it fresh. So when we're talking about it I know exactly what all my intentions when what I was thinking and why I was braiding stuff. So I have all that fresh in my head. Right now I'm now looking at it. I'm like, okay, I'm imagining. But I've been going, listening and paying attention to all the various interviews that haven't been used. And some of the ones that have been used and going back and trying to imagine what conversations that I've been remembering.

Zaron (25:44):

Right now I'm pretty much looking at the public opinion stuff. That's the big one that I'm grabbing as I'm reading. I'm pulling out the clips that people are saying stuff that I'm like, oh, that would be an interesting. Nadine, because of her ethnography, I'm putting that into the public opinion. So you can see public opinion from the position of ethnography because she talks a great... I set her up in episode six about talking about the competing stories. Then later on she gets into specifics because it didn't really fit in this episode, but I think I want to get in for that one, which is public opinion and using a case study of how we use the lazy language of both Arab or Middle Eastern, and the pluralities that it contains. And yet that sways so much of public opinion.

Zaron (26:30):

I'm going to use that as an example of a misnomer that we never go and recheck. And we should. And why don't we? And why don't we use better language? It's what I was saying earlier about labels. She's got me thinking about, let's try to peel off labels as opposed to putting on better labels. That's what I've been thinking about based on what she's been saying. And then I've been also trying to think about it from the story standpoint of what [inaudible 00:26:55] because they were saying...

Noor (26:59):

One of the things that you were talking about a couple of weeks ago as we transition into the second half of this series is about us using the first half to introduce these ideas and these tools. And that's what I really liked about episode five, is that we kept seeing specific tangible tools show up so that you can go back and essentially know what kind of tools we use to be able to get here. As we are empowered with the tools and the approach to story for the second half, how do you currently feel? Where are you at with [inaudible 00:27:42] power?

Zaron (27:44):

Have you checked to the script for episode six yet?

Noor (27:46):

No, because I had this breakthrough.

Zaron (27:50):

Yeah, no worries. I'm saying is that, as you'll notice in that one we look at power without laying the language of it. So I don't want people sitting there thinking about the 48 laws of power or whatever. I don't want them using previous language. I want them to suddenly realize that that's what they're analyzing. Right? So then they go, oh, I could use this anywhere. Because now they're doing it without applying a special lens. They are suddenly just given the ability to see something they couldn't see before.

Zaron (28:16):

Mike Prysner gives this emotional... And I use his storyline to be the critic, but then also to speak truth to power, and to also give a very emotional insight to the US military, our relation to the military, our relationship to veterans, veterans' relationship to themselves, the military's relationship to the world, our relationship to the military. He goes and points out all these various things, right? So you have all these aspects of power dynamics essentially.

Zaron (28:42):

And then on top of that, I have Nadine explaining the competition between stories, and that history is really his stories and it's a competition of stories. And then you have this as basically a way of realizing you can't ever follow one story. If you do, somebody's telling you that story. If you're not analyzing multiple perspectives, multiple stories... So you'll see this constant. Moving with the theme of perspectives that comes up with the storytellers, now we're looking at it from the lens of being able to see the dissection of... Mike Prysner's thing about how much it was costing 800 million a day for the war. He's like, "What if you were given the ability to say, how are you going to spend 800 million today to better the American people? And you got to do that every day, right?"

Zaron (29:35):

So these questions are complete inversions of the power dynamic. All of a sudden it's the we of people's money, as opposed to the federal government telling you what you're doing. So these power inversions... Let's see. I'm just going to give you a good example. I start out with his trip to Gaza, where you see the people who are the victims of munitions which are being tested on the streets of Gaza, and then sold by Israeli weapons manufacturers, and usually in alliance with American weapons manufacturers. And yet they're blockading the wheelchairs. So these people who now cannot get around, they're not being allowed to get wheelchairs. And so he goes with this illegal contraband bringing wheelchairs. It's this really bizarre but powerful scene of how much the weapons... We're basically doing this for the benefit of the weapons contractors. So they have a power in this, they just ignored. And it's acting like, oh, the government has to do this.

Zaron (30:35):

He tries to basically pull back this curtain, but we do it emotionally. And then he pays it off at the end with, he goes down and runs down with that opening scene. So Prysner becomes the emotional core, but it's not an emotional core that we've seen before, because he opens up at about himself, but it's not quite the same in terms of there is a... I have him with yelling at Bush. He talks about that. Well, he's the counterpoint to everything you know about [inaudible 00:31:05] Ali and David Eisenbach say. They all say their parts that you know. And then Eisenbach goes into it. And then I have Nadine and Eisenbach do the points about the shifting of how power used media to convince others that this is in their best interest. And then Mike Prysner says, basically as a veteran, this is what I have to say about it. And then Margery Hill talks about empire and anti-racism, anti-colonialism. And then Prysner says, "Yeah, we got ginned up on racism, and that's how we would fight the war."

Zaron (31:34):

So he's basically the on the boots version of what all the academics say. So I try to balance every academic group with him being the... If not his story, the guy next to him on the ground. You'll see that he comes in. The answers are long, so he'll be the thing we edit down, but I left him in there so we can find the language we like the best. His stories are what ends up being the emotional glue. You don't notice that the academics are telling you this. And they have great quotes. I really like it. It's not dry, boring, dusty shit. It's really moving. But they are all academics so they speak in paragraphs. He balances that by also speaking in paragraphs. So it becomes this nice balance.

Zaron (32:14):

And then you get a wide range. I mean, Eisenbach comes in as a critic. I hear Ali comes in as a critic. Margery Hill. At the end, I want people to feel good about stuff. I don't want it to feel so bad after all this criticisms, because it's well earned. At no point do you feel like you're just beating up on America. I mean, Mike Prysner makes you realize, oh fuck. And then he is talking about the $800 million a day. So you're realizing, wait a minute, this is my money. We could be doing a lot more. And then he talks about the COVID aid. I mean, he ties all this stuff together so it makes it very immediate. And it's not just like, back in 2001 when we were first bombing people. It is very now.

Zaron (32:48):

And then he talks about the aid going to the Ukraine that should have been COVID money. And then that is going to weapons manufacturers essentially. It's not going to healthy American. They're Ukrainian people. We're giving them weapons. So this money is going to weapons contractors, and then they get weapons. So we're just fermenting war. So he talks that's that power dynamic. And then we end with Margery Hill basically starts redefining what freedom is after Mike Prysner adds all of his criticism and says, "What would you do with this money?" She then says, "Freedom." And talks about responsibility of freedom. Not about freedom, like in some open minded... You know what I mean?

Zaron (33:22):

And then to end it, I have Kalu Mohi come back in and he describes his relationship to the constitution and why he chose America. So then you get why somebody would still want to come here. So all this criticism and he talks about America, basically... What is the quote? I don't want to get it wrong. He says, "I want the constitution to be implemented in every aspect. I want America that I knew to be America of the future. I'm sure it will be. I'm sure America went through many hard times and always readjusted to the right path." That's how we basically end. So after all this criticism we end with Margery Hill saying, "This is how we go forward." And then he's like, "Yes. I have faith that'll happen. It's happened before." So it's not this wishy washy, no we should do. It's more like, no, this is a struggle. But if we keep our eye on the ball, we can gain ground in this struggle.

Noor (34:15):

Thanks for explaining that. That was really clear. I'm so excited to read the script. I had this thought today while I was walking in the cemetery. We take morning walks in the cemetery, and it's so beautiful. There's mountains in the background, there's trees, the grass is blowing, and there's all these animals around. I'm looking around and I just suddenly think, I don't want to use language that is hateful or negative towards America. Because I cannot complain.

Noor (35:12):

Actually, I don't even think it was during the cemetery. I think it was when I was sitting and talking to Nick I had that as a passing thought. It just reminds me of the James Baldwin quote of, "I criticize America because of how much I love her." I'm so grateful for us being able to be here. When I watched Saturday Night Live yesterday I literally looked at Adam and laughed and I was like, "Wow, thank God for freedom of speech." Because a lot of the stuff that is said on there, you would not be allowed to say in other places in the world. That is still not something to take for granted.

Zaron (35:57):

I think a lot of people conflate American culture in America the nation. The American nation is one of the greatest conceptions of how people can live together in the history. I am a student of history, and everybody who studies history knows this is one of the greatest power balances amongst the people and of government. We've let it go astray because of our culture. Our culture has corrupted our nation's design, but that's on us. That's not on the national design. Even though it was created by dusty slave owning people who were sexist, I'm not suggesting that they were perfect people, but out of all the various constructions it's one of the best nations created on paper.

Noor (36:37):

So then that's what we should be working towards is having-

Zaron (36:40):

Exactly. Making the promise real.

Noor (36:44):

And the way that we make the promise real is by examining what the promise actually is. What is the promise that we made?

Zaron (36:54):

And also not giving up the fight, not giving up the fight to the so-called patriots. This is way too much history, way too many struggles. I know way too many of my ancestors who went through way difficult heinous slave type shit to get to this point. I'm not going to forgive all that and hand it over to some people just because they get loud and say, "We're patriots and this is our country." I'm going to say, no, this is my country because of all the investments of all these people before me, that I feel that I can say that.

Zaron (37:17):

I would turn to my friend who is newly made a minted American and say they can feel exactly the same because that's how America works. So it doesn't mean that you're [inaudible 00:37:26] blood and soil. This is why I have no problem arguing with the patriots, but I don't want people being afraid of these so-called hateful patriots, because they're trying to use bluster to make every... They're afraid. The reason why they're getting so loud and so violent is they're afraid. They know they're losing, and they're trying to act like they're not. So then if anyone believes that... I would say you need to study playground behavior, because this is very much playground behavior. This is somebody who knows they're going to lose and they're trying to get mad so that the game stops.

Noor (38:01):

And they're trying to get mad so the game stops. Wow. That gave me chills because that is so familiar. I know that kid on the playground.

Zaron (38:09):

Right? Yeah. Because if the game stops they can't lose and they can just start, and then okay now we'll start new rule and whatever. It's my play. They'll keep arguing. They're terrified, and that's on them. But whatever, we shouldn't be afraid that they're going to... This civil war stuff. Any of this talk of a bigger, greater thing is giving them a lot of credit they don't deserve.

Noor (38:38):

Oh my gosh. So to you personally, what is the role of story in all of this?

Zaron (38:45):

Once again, returning to religion, it is one of the most powerful tools we have. It is the parables. It is the homilies. It is the sutras. It is every time we have something where you can boil down it to a story, and you can impart a lot of wisdom... A seed that can become a oak tree can be in a story. Right? I think of that as being the power of story. It is the way to beat a gun. It is the way to beat a court. It is the way to beat all these things that people are terrified, because it is something that can be passed along. As long as people understand it and they believe it and they feel it, they can then make it their own and it can be slightly changed because the truth will still be in there. So the story itself is, I think, the most powerful tool we have to change the world the way we want that doesn't involve blood.

Noor (39:37):

Zaron, this hit me when we first started talking and I was sharing this breakthrough with you. I was like, oh, you and I were never meant to do our interlude debrief episode all mic'ed up and everything. It was meant to be one of these times. I haven't recorded one of our conversations in a while because we've been so invested in everything that it's just been so fast. But if you're comfortable, I'd like to use some of this conversation for that.

Zaron (40:10):

Oh, sure. Of course. Yeah. If you've been recording it, yeah. Fine.

Noor (40:14):

That felt like the interlude to me.

Zaron (40:17):

Yeah. No, definitely. I also not knowing that I'm being recorded, because then I'll speak more freely.

Noor (40:28):

I got you.

Zaron (40:28):

Yeah.

Noor (40:30):

I already thought about it. That's why I didn't tell you. And then you were going into breaking down the episode, and I was like... I was like, I can tell him, but then he'll think about it, so that was great.

Zaron (40:41):

That was good.

Noor (40:42):

Oh, cool. I was stressing about that, but I was like, it's going to be so perfect. It has to be the way it's meant to be.

Zaron (40:49):

Of course.

Noor (40:50):

And that episode six feels like such a great breakthrough to come to. So I will read that. For the outro of this episode, the story... What I said in the beginning, did that feel like a good... I need to obviously condense it, but did that feel like a good outro?

Zaron (41:09):

Yeah, totally. And you can take part of this story and tease it in your intro because you mentioned it, and then complete the story or change your reflection on the story. Maybe reveal that, oh this is actually how I remembered it later. You can do whatever you want, but I think using it with the free intro and outro is great.

Noor (41:24):

Yeah. Well I wasn't going to even change the intro. I was just going to in the outro be honest and be like getting to the end of this that I unlocked this thing where I didn't even realize. Yeah.

Zaron (41:35):

I think that's great. I think that'll be really beautiful. And then, yeah, just keep it tight. Make Nick a thing if you want. If not, you can just tell it from your perspective. Either way you want.

Noor (41:45):

Yeah. I'm just going to see how it comes out. I also have the audio from the story that I did so I can even use some of that. I mean, I have the footage of them saying stuff to me. Because I remember there was a meme that was made because I looked at the guy. I was like, why are you mean mugging me? Like that. You know when something is just so not real that you can only joke about it? It wasn't until after that I got sad. But during it, I was just like, are you joking? Is this a joke? It just feels like you're pranking me. There's no way you can be this afraid of polka dots.

Zaron (42:19):

Yeah. It's like a angry barnyard animal coming up with [inaudible 00:42:25].

Noor (42:26):

That's so funny. Wow.