(Transcript) 39. Live Conversation with Amanda Palmer at The Rubin Museum

Tim: Hello everyone, and good evening, and welcome to the Rubin Museum of Art, I’m Tim McHenry, deputy executive director here, and chief programme officer, the longest title in the world, and we welcome to this museum that really is a global hub for Himalayan art, with a little home base in the foothills of Chelsea, so welcome.

So we’re exploring some major questions tonight. Tomorrow afternoon, for example, we’ll be posing the question to the assembled audience in a totally darkened room, and we’ll ask the question, who wants to die without knowing who they really are?

And in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, the dark retreat practice is a 49 day practice in which all sources of light is removed from your world. And when all the light has gone, everything you see is you. And it’s not always convenient, and it’s not always beautiful, in fact it’s very often the reverse. So that’s a preparation for the dying process, and death is not the end is an exhibition that runs through to the early part of January next year, I urge you to go and see it, the gallery is open until 10 o’clock.

But what we wanted to talk about tonight, and in our series with our host Amanda Palmer, is what happens? What is the life after you tell the truth on yourself, for the benefit of others? And that becomes a pivotal moment in anybody’s life. And here, on stage tonight, we’re going to witness two extraordinary storytellers who do not fabricate stories, they use stories to tell the truth, and transmit an understanding and a perspective that has often been obscured by things like the media. And Noor Tagouri is no stranger to the misconception that can arise through media dissemination of information that is far from truthful. And as an award-winning journalist and podcaster and truth-teller, she has really been trenchant about holding that line, and bringing the truth to bear on a situation where she sees it. And quite frankly, no differently Amanda Palmer is a truth-teller, but in song. And so, here we have these two storytellers together, who are going to parse this out and reveal how difficult it is and what the price you have to pay is when you tell the truth on yourself.

So, first up: hands together for Amanda Palmer!

Amanda:

I have loaned a lot of things To a lot of friends
Like dresses, and records And books

And a lot of the time
I never see them again
And in a weird way, I think that that works

Because the thing about things
Is they start to turn evil
When you start to forget what they’re for So if you’re not sure
What you did with my sweater
I’ll just have to love you a little bit more

I had a ring
That belonged to my grandfather He was a mason and gay
And he was distant and bitter For all of my childhood
We never had much to say

He wasn’t the type
To give tokens of affection
So I stole the ring when he died
And then twenty years on
When I lost it in a bar
I thought that’s fine, I don’t want it in my life

Because the thing about things
Is that they can start meaning things Nobody actually said
And if he couldn’t make
Something mean something for me
I had to make up what it meant

I can carry
Everything I need
In one collapsing suitcase

I can carry
Everyone I love
In one phone application

Built to maximize the face time Of the friends I’m bent on making Actually I want to be alone
To mourn the loss
Of what it cost

I think it’s a poem
And I think it keeps going
And I’ve borrowed and loaned lots of things And three nights ago
In the bar where I lost it
The bartender gave me the ring

And I lay in bed
With my phone in my hand
Thinking what can I fix with which app?

And I called my grandfather
But he doesn’t answer
And I have to make peace with that fact

Because the thing about things
Is that they can start meaning things Nobody actually said
And if you’re not allowed
To love people alive
Then you learn how to love people dead

The thing about things
Is that they can start meaning things Nobody actually said
And if you’re not allowed
To love people alive
Then you learn how to love people dead

Please give your hands together for Noor.

Noor: Hi, beautiful friends. You know what would be so... Oh. Guys, I think I dropped... I may have dropped my poem in the back. I did memorize it – wait, one...

The truth is, I did memorize it when I was 17, and then it all came back to me. The poem is what I’m talking about.

Hi, beautiful friends. I am so honored that you all are here. Can we just get another round of applause for Amanda’s amazing music?

And Tim, thank you so much for having us, this is just so beautiful. Okay.

(Arabic)

This is a Muslim, and also recently I was told it’s also similar to a Jewish prayer, that was said by Moses. He, in our tradition, we believe that he had a lisp, and the translation of the prayer is Oh Lord, please open and expand my heart. Make my task easy for me, and untie the knots in my tongue, so they may understand what I truly mean to say.

So, I pass that prayer onto you guys, because tonight is a night of truth-telling, and I pray that your hearts are open enough for sharing.

My name is Noor, and I’ve been a journalist for exactly 15 years of my life. I turn 30 next week, and I started when I was 15. But I wrote this poem that I wanted to share with you all, because poetry was what was a medium of art that I’ve used since I was a child to try to make sense of things when natural storytelling couldn’t. And it was one of those things

where the line would just come in your mind in the shower, and then everything would come out, and sometimes I would write words that I didn’t even know what they meant. And now I’m realizing, twelve years later, that this poem that I wrote in 2011, one month into the Arab Spring and the Libyan revolution, which is where my family is from, Libya, that this poem was a gift that was waiting for me as an adult too. So I wanted to share it with you all. It’s called Deaf, Dumb and Blind. And it’s a reference to a verse in the Qur’an that refers to these ailments through a spiritual lens. So unfortunately that’s the limited translation in English, but here we go.

Y’all, I haven’t performed poetry in ten years, so this is...

My stomach is full, but I am starving
The aching want of food for my hungry eyes
Hurts from the force-feeding tubes of mainstream media lies And the hunger shapeshifts into vulnerable slices
Into vulnerable ears that want a satisfying slice
Of the truth

Tempted, we bite the sugar-coated hand that feeds us And choke as we learn that not everything
Is served on a silver platter

And while everyone has his or her hands on a piece The truth remains scattered
No one’s eyes have the audacity or the mental capacity To witness the reality that’s fate is fatality

Our mentally acquired taste
Favors the buds of ignorance
As the ulcers in our eyes grow
It has become impossible to visualize Mercenaries sent out to massacre
Leaving maimed corpses brutalized
An image that mother media has made numb To those with no ties to the land that reeks The scent of death

As she allows ignorant minds
To suckle lies through her breast

Meanwhile reality never takes a rest
And brave men catch bullets with their bare chest Their blood runs parallel to the stream of the Nile Refusing to cut the umbilical tie
To the motherland
So they sleep with one eye open
Never having peace of mind
Because they give a piece of their mind

Yet the only sound heard
In the transaction of words
Between the leader and the rebel
Is the universal language of gunshots
Spoken with machine gun mouths
And twelve gauge tongues
And when they pray
This is the language that is sung
Worship in the most prominent religion today Self-interest

Where brutal practice to obtain paper and plastic persists Man sacrifices human blood to this worship
And instead of feeling pure after prayer
The dirt stays embedded underneath the fingernails

Of hands that have touched so much impurity

But when night falls
Darkness paints the skies with stars
And handwriting of a God who knows the golden silence And the quiet in truth

And this is why they never tell you the truth This is why they feed you lies on a silver platter And tell you
You are not worthy of gold
You are not worthy of God
And you are not worthy of fact

Well here’s a fact
Ninety percent of human communication is non-verbal So maybe I should stay silent
Mother media tells me that silence is golden
But I have seen the color of silence
Silence is blue that turns bright red
The moment it hits oxygen
Silence is the breakage of skin
And the shedding of blood
And for those who hold he power of a mainstream voice Your followers are lost
Lamenting the imminent return to real life

(Arabic)

Deaf, dumb, and blind So they will not return

I just want you to know that I wrote that when I was 17 and I didn’t know how to say the word ‘lamenting’ until last week.

Amanda: How were you saying it?
Noor: I was saying lamenting. Like laminating.

Amanda: I wrote songs when I was 17 that I’m still really proud to perform. There’s also this thing of, I don’t know if you could write that poem now in the same way.

Noor: I don’t think I could.
Amanda: There is shit you can do when you’re a teenager that you can never do again. Noor: It’s the undeveloped brain!
Amanda: And sometimes it’s the best shit.

Noor: I actually literally meditated on this this morning, because I was like, is it silly for me to share something that I wrote when I was a teenager? And also, I hadn’t read that poem in literally years, until last week, and I was like, oh my gosh, it was me trying to make sense of the industry that I was stepping into, and seeing how they were covering the people that I belong to. And it was this cognitive dissonance that felt like nothing was fitting, it just wasn’t making sense. And so I was just thinking this morning, wow, the power of an undeveloped brain that doesn’t really think about the consequences, and just thinks about telling the truth over and over and over again, and that’s what we’re here to do today.

Amanda: Well I’ve been contending... maybe contending is the wrong word. I’ve been revisiting my old band, which has been my band all my life, The Dresden Dolls, we’re putting out a new record. And there’s some really complicated things about this, and part of the complication has been as a woman who’s now 47, performing some songs that I wrote at 15, 18, 24, and seeing if they still fit. And in some instances, being ashamed of my now-self that I’m not as honest as I was when I was 15.

Noor: Right? Yeah.

Amanda: And then the flipside of writing these is kind of being inspired by teenage Amanda, and 25 year old Amanda who just gave no fucks. And then writing this whole new album, some of you may have heard it if you were at the Bowery, as I played seven songs, and I’m afraid of my own material. And I’m ashamed of myself that the progress has come. We become older, we become more conservative, and there’s a good reason for that. And if you were at Sophie’s talk last week, we talked about how we actually need this whole ecosystem. We need 15 year olds raging and screaming the truth like wake the fuck up. And we need 95 year old people being like, and there’s also this.

Noor: But doesn’t that show you the cycle that all of this exists in? In my brain, the way I think about it is children have the truth, and our elders have the truth. Everybody in the middle is just trying to get back to the truth that we knew as children. And that’s where we’re at right now, which is why if you have any art that you created as a child, I don’t even care if it’s a finger painting, go back to it. Because you were telling your adult self things that it needed to know, and it just makes things a lot easier. I always say, have a 12 year old brother, and I’m just like, I need you to write that thing that you just said down, I want you to remember it, you’re gonna want to come back tot his. Because somewhere along the line, we lose it. We lose the confidence to just be. We get told that you can only show up a certain way, you can only speak about certain things, you can only love a certain way.

And I would love to know for you, because I remember when I first heard you perform upstate, you shared that song you wrote when you were 15, which was really... it was referring to sexual assault, and you shared it with your music teacher, and his reaction was quite shit, in my opinion. But you were 15, and you depicted an experience which by the way was an experience that I had a very similar one when I was 15, and so I was in the room just sobbing, and I didn’t know you could even say those things out loud. So what did 15 year old Amanda know that 47 year old Amanda is trying to figure out again?

Amanda: Well, we’re gonna get very truthy tonight.
Noor: We already made a really out loud, people were like what does telling the truth on

yourself mean? I was like oh, you’ll know when you’re here.
Amanda: I’m gonna try to be more truthful than usual, which for me is a challenge.

I wrote this song at 15, it’s called Slide. And I don’t remember writing a lot of songs. This song that I played for you today, I don’t remember where I was when I wrote it. I don’t even remember what city I was in, what house I was in. I have very few memories specifically of writing songs, and my memory is bad in general. I specifically not only remember writing this song, I remember the marker, the gray Pentel marker with which I wrote it. And like a lot of good songs and poems, it came out in one go. And I was in high school, 10th grade, living at home, and in my bedroom, and I snuck down to the piano in the living room, because I knew how I wanted it to sound, and I had to play it quietly enough that I wouldn’t get in trouble, because my parents were asleep, and I was not allowed to play the piano late at night.

And I was unlocking, at 15, and being taught by the bands that I was listening to, the songwriters that I was listening to, Depeche Mode, and The Cure, and Nick Cave, and Leonard Cohen, and PJ Harvey, how it worked. And how it works is something terrible happens to you, and you take a metaphor, and you talk about it. And that’s how you make a song. This was what I was learning by the master chefs of songwriting. You don’t write a song and say I was raped. That’s boring, and bad, and also won’t work in a lot of ways. What you have to do is write a song about being raped that’s interesting and beautiful

Noor: Where you’re talking around it, but not talking about it?

Amanda: Yes, and also, that makes you an artist. And I was like, I’m an artist! I’m a songwriter! I want to be Robert Smith, so what does Robert Smith do? Robert Smith takes a metaphor, it’s a caterpillar, it’s a bed, it’s a cloud, it’s a flower. It’s basic. This is also the shit that we were taught in third grade English. And I was like, I know what a great metaphor would be. A slide, in a playground. It has a top, it has a bottom, it has a beginning and an end. I’m gonna write a song about a girl who starts at the top of the slide, and goes to the bottom, and there’s a scary man waiting there, and this will be the song about sexual assault. It’s perfect! I am an artist! With my gray magic marker.

And I’m still impressed by that song. I still look back at that little 15 year old girl, and I’m like, that’s a good song! Go you! But also, I was listening to the masters. I was paying attention to what resonated with me when I heard it with my ears.

And the comment that the music teacher made, I had a bit of a music teacher mentor, and this was the first song that I had ever written that I thought was good, and I had written lots of songs. And I was like, I think this is good. I think this is good. And I played it for him, and he said, I got to the end of it, I was so scared, I don’t think I’ve ever been so scared in my entire life, I was like, this is it, this makes or breaks me as an artist. And he said, it’s going to be amazing when your musical abilities catch up with your lyrical abilities.

Noor: Imagine you just shared your sexual assault with a teacher, and that’s their response. You can laugh about it now, but that’s wild.

Amanda: I don’t think he even got what the song was about.
Noor: Oh... men.
Amanda: I picked the wrong teacher. I should have picked my English teacher. Noor: But then you wouldn’t have had the story.

Amanda: I should have picked Peggy Diro. Peggy, I’m sorry! No, then I wouldn’t have the story, and I wouldn’t have things to rage against. And you know what’s funny? This is an important part of the story, and I’ve never really, deeply thought about or told this part of the story. But I wasn’t angry at him. Because I was 15, and he was the teacher. And this was also right in an era of my life where two of my piano teachers who were much older than me tried to sleep with me, and I did. And I was lost in the realm of, of course the adults know. The adults know everything. He’s right. I must try harder. It never occurred to me to be upset until way later, when I was like, what were you thinking!

Noor: You mean way later like when your brain became fully developed, and it finally closed the circle? Have you guys had that experience, post-26 year old, where past childhood teenage stuff goes oh, that’s what that was? Raise your hand?

Amanda: Yes.

Noor: I wanna know if we were the only... Okay, cool, got it. Okay, but I have a question about this. So going back to all the masters and the metaphors and blah blah blah blah. Zooming out a little bit, do you feel like in a way some of these artists were avoiding the truthiest truth? Like they were just trying to mask it with metaphor and poetry and stuff, because they actually themselves were like, I’m not gonna go that deep, I’m not gonna feel that, and my audience is satisfied enough with the metaphor?

Amanda: No.
Noor: You think that they do feel it all the way? Amanda: I think it’s two things.
Noor: Right.

Amanda: Number one, telling the direct truth about incredible pain is a bit of a firehose, and maybe not useful in an artistic setting. There are spoken word poems where someone stands up and is like, I was raped! And you’re like wow, that’s powerful. But that’s different. It’s a different avenue.

And maybe way more importantly, when you art your pain, when you use a metaphor, when you create a story, when you transmute a trauma, a pain, a sorrow, we’re talking about all the negative things, but throw in the positive things too. An unbridled joy. And you don’t just stand there and go, I’m so happy! It taps into the magical alchemical thing that art can do, that none of us have ever really been able to explain. And hopefully we never can. Because then it’s a different kind of invitation, to a viewer, to a listener, to the person who’s being presented with the piece of art.

It’s almost like every human from the dawn of time understands that if you take something, and you package it in an artistic package, in a painting, in a song, in a dance, in a story, and then you send it over to your fellow human being, it somehow works. It somehow works in a more powerful way than if you just give the information directly.

And there have been a lot of studies about how we take on information, how we store information, how we remember, why stories are so important for memory. And I think both things are true. Because I look at the work of really powerful artists, especially traumatized artists, many artists work straight out of their trauma, and need to set it all on another planet for a reason. And this gets into what we should talk about, which is what’s at stake if you’re just gonna tell the direct truth, and usually there’s a lot.

Noor: Thank you so much, what an artist perspective. As a journalist, it’s a little bit different. I understand the need to alchemize the trauma and the pain to turn it into art that’s digestible and moveable, something that you feel more in your bones and spirit than you do just on the surface level. And a friend of mine who is an amazing write, Mairi Andrew, I interviewed her, and she mentioned how sometimes just talking about unprocessed trauma isn’t even productive, you have to kind of move through it to get to the beauty, to get to the reason that it’s worth being shared in that moment. How can non-artists, or non-musicians,

engage with the music that we consume and know when an artist has actually done the work to process, versus spiritually bypass? I think that’s really what I’m trying to get at, I get that you don’t have to sit there and directly say, but I still want to be engaging with the person’s truthiest truth, even if it is powerful and beautiful and metaphorical. And I think that one of the things that happens, now especially with social media, where you’re seeing more of the insides of your favorite artists’ minds, sometimes you’re like, you ain’t shit. Sometimes you just say stuff and I’m like, I really prefer your... You’re like yeah, I’ve noticed that lately, I just prefer the lyrics. So how do we still engage with the artist that way?

Amanda: That’s such a great question. And I don’t know how I would have felt at 15 if Robert Smith had been tweeting. Seriously! I kind of love that Robert Smith and PJ Harvey have just never entered the arena of ‘and let me tell you a little bit more about myself’, fucking ever, really.

Back then there were magazine interviews. And you would read those, I would pore over interviews with Robert Smith, trying to glean more information that I could apply to the man I was certain I would marry. But this is the thing, and this gets into a whole other conversation about the artist and the art, and what our job is, if we have a job, to separate these two things. Because oh my god, nowadays it’s super complicated.

And I think it’s so dangerous to expect our artists to be good, pure, correct. Because that’s not what art is about! And of course, anyone choosing to be an artist is fucking batshit to begin with, it’s such a weird job, especially to do as a profession, right? To make money and pay your rent being an artist, it’s strange on a million levels.

And it almost is like we’re on the flipside of the way a certain segment of, let’s say a certain segment of at least American culture in the 60s, expected their artists to be badly behaved. And now, we expect our artists to be...

Noor: What happened?
Amanda: You tell me! I don’t know!

Noor: Is it social media? Is it accountability? Is it that now we realize, man, there was a lot of harm that was being done, and we don’t wanna tolerate that?

Amanda: Yes. I think yes, and.
Noor: But I wanna know when did you transition from being like, I can do whatever, sex,

drugs, rock and roll vibe, to... oh.
Amanda: Well, I was never in a sex, drugs and rock and roll band. Noor: Vibe. It’s a vibe.

Amanda: Well, also, I was a woman. No one really wanted, or expected, Amanda Palmer of The Dresden Dolls, 25, to be backstage doing coke, fucking the groupies. No one looked at

me and said of course that’s what you’re going to do, you’re a rock star. No one knew what to make of me. People were confused. I think it’s still confusing.

And the fact that I was in a band with a man really helped. I spoke about this one night at the Bowery, that if I had been just a female solo singer-songwriter banging on a piano, I would have had a completely different relationship with the media, a completely different audience, a completely different demographic. I would have been a more punk Tori Amos type. But because I was on stage with a dude, and this is no disrespect for Brian, this is onl respect for Brian, the drummer in the Dolls.

Noor: He’s so amazing.

Amanda: He is amazing. Because patriarchy, he absolutely authenticated me. Because while I was banging on the piano, singing my truth, and my songs about sexual assault, and mental health, and confusion, and anger, a man was right there, hitting a thing, basically saying listen to her! Right?

Noor: Wow, yeah.

Amanda: That’s what the band was. Is.

Noor: Yeah, it’s fire.

Amanda: And so our audience was half male, because also it was no uncool to go see The Dresden Dolls, because there was a boy and a girl, and it wasn’t scary.

Noor: But it was also punk rock cabaret, which is its own very niche experience. I feel like you’re going to a dark circus show when you’re going to a Dresden Dolls show. Guys, I have gone to... I’ve watched you perform three or four times in the last couple months.

Amanda: Sorry.
Noor: So I’m very intimate with this process. It’s great.

Amanda: But there is a thing about, if you wanna get back to the rock and roll, why that all happened, I do think that culture moved on in general. Total annihilation, and excess, and the idea of throwing a television out a dressing room window kind of lost its appeal, I think, when we also realized that it wasn’t really helping matters.

And people still have so much romance around musicians, artists, poets, what it means, and I have had my own internalized romance around what an artist is supposed to be, look like, act like, speak about. And a lot of it is really unhealthy, still, in both directions. Especially our relationship with money, our relationship with...

Noor: Let’s talk about that. I wanna talk about money with you. Amanda: Let’s do it. So sexy.

Noor: Amanda, I’ve never met anybody who can openly talk about money the way that Amanda does. Raise your hand if you’re a patron of her Patreon. Wow... You guys are so loyal! We gotta find people like you.

Amanda: Thank you.
Noor: I think that it’s so incredible. So your Patreon, your community, that’s a huge

foundational part of how you make a living, right?

Amanda: It’s how I make a living.

Noor: It is how you make your living. And I wanna know what your relationship with money was when you were purely only making money form touring, on the record label, blah blah blah, and then trusting that you had enough of a community to actually be like, you know what? I actually want to be on your team. What’s the word for when people co-own...

Amanda: Oh, in...

Noor: When everybody’s a part of the business? Shareholder? Yeah, shareholder vibe, co- op, that. So how did you transition from that? Because I also, when it comes to labels, and making money through streaming, and making money through tours, most of my friends who are artists really, really struggle. No matter how successful they look from the ouside, it’s so hard, and so what was that transition like for you?

Amanda: Well this is a very apt conversation right now, because musicians especially are freaking out. Freaking out at their inability to make ends meet. Because the math just isn’t working any more. Streaming isn’t paying enough money. And it used to be that you could make up the shortfall. People are no longer dropping $20 on a CD, so you can’t really make money on an album that way the way you could 10, 15, 20 years ago. And it used to be that you would make up for the shortfall touring merch. And now touring has become too expensive. Price of gas, price of lodging, price of crew, Covid cancellations, whatever. And unless you’re the 1%, unless you’re Taylor Swift, U2, Billie Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, you’ve raced ahead of the pack and you’ve figured it out, and you’re playing to thousands and thousands of people every night, you cannot make a living.

And to back up to the actual question, my veer towards crowdfunding was actually more about my disillusionment with my record label and the music industry than about a direct... What do I wanna say? I wound up crowdfunding because it was the only alternative I saw to the way I was supposed to be doing it.

Noor: Can you take us back to the first time you had the idea, and how uncomfortable it was in your body? Or how comfortable it was, when you were like, wait, what about this?

Amanda: I was just excited. Noor: Really?

Amanda: But I am a famously optimistically naïve person. Which is maybe why these things occasionally work, because I had no doubts. I was so... there’s a word for that. No cavalier, but I was sure. I was confident.

Noor: With a little delusion.
Amanda: Probably.
Noor: Because you need the magic of delusion.

Amanda: But also, the magic key is when you’re that confident and deluded, everyone follows you. Because they’re convinced that you have it figured out. Because you think you do, and so it goes.

Noor: I wanna ask, (points to audience member) can I ask you a question? So you’re a patron of Amanda’s? Can I ask you why, and how that happened? Are you comfortable with that?

Amanda: Take my mic, because then Noor can talk to you.

Molly: I mean, I’m gonna try and make it concise, but it was maybe ten or twelve years ago I discovered you. And I’m 64 now, and I hadn’t cared about music the way I did when I was younger for a long time. And I saw...

Noor: What’s your name?

Molly: Molly.

Noor: Hi Molly. Thanks.

Molly: I saw the video of... Fuck, I can’t remember the name of the song. The one about your family...

Amanda: Runs In The Family?

Molly: Runs In The Family. And it just went right to my soul, right to everything about my childhood, and healing, and trauma, and therapy, and everything, and I just embraced it, so that I just followed your career at that point, and then I just feel like you’re a kindred spirit, and I need to support that in whatever way I could.

Noor: Thank you. Amanda: Thank you.

Noor: I feel like the second you hear from people like Molly, it gives me so much hope in community, and building community. I feel like we see the numbers on our screens, we see

people as numbers, and the seeing people as numbers, period, in general has become a plague amongst humanity in general. And that’s why it’s so important to come to things like this, to be able to make eye contact with people, and be like, I see you, I’ll never forget you, Molly. Thank you for sharing that, I’ll never forget you. I’m so serious, to me it’s so important to be in community and to be gathering, because it gives me hope that maybe we don’t need the systems, maybe we just need each other.

Amanda: So this is such an important thing to talk about right now, as Twitter is collapsing, and...

Noor: What’s that?
Amanda: Exactly.
Noor: I refuse to go back there.

Amanda: And literally as this week, I just ran into Sophie in the street this morning, and I’ve been talking to Noor about it, I have seen an activity, and a lack of activity, on the internet – and by the internet I mean Facebook and Instagram – this week that I’ve never seen before.

Noor: Amanda found out I’m heavily censored on the interwebs.

Amanda: And also, who knows? We are left in the dark about why things happen, and how they happen, and the algorithm is getting more and more frightening to artists. I think probably to all human beings. But for we who have used that as a medium, like oh, we’ll take control, we’ll talk directly to our communities, we will use these amazing internet tools, and we will grow our followings, and people like Molly will come into my community on Facebook, and I will be able to tell you that I’ve put out a new song about New Zealand, and I’m going on tour there, and then I put it up on the internet and it just reaches nobody.

And the fear that is involved in that is not unlike the fear, and the anger, that I felt when I was on the major label, where I was like, wait a second, I’m really not in control here. I am not fucking in control, and you don’t actually care about me, and Molly, and our relationship, you give no fucks. You ind of have to give no fucks, you’re a corporation, you’re a company, you have to make fourth quarter, but I don’t wanna be involved. I just wanna make music, and give it to people who want it.

Noor: Because it becomes an entire other job. By the way, being an artist is one job, but cultivating and keeping up with the community, the fact that you’re doing these regular webinars, and Zooms, and gatherings in person, and all that stuff, it takes a lot to do that. It takes so much energy, and it becomes very hard to turn off.

I feel like when it comes to the whole algorithm stuff, I’ve been very vocal in reporting about what’s happening in Palestine, and I have obviously seen the censoring that’s happening, and I’ll have people be like oh, your thing isn’t showing up, this isn’t happening. And I see how people react to that, and they take it like this thing is happening to me, and I’m directly being censored and all of that. And for me personally it feels like a waste of

energy, because I feel like if you choose to use the internet as your medium, you just have to engage in a level of trust. Be like, whoever sees this story is who’s meant to see this story, whoever sees this invitation to the event is meant to see it. And even with this event, every single person who’s in this room is exactly who’s meant to be in this room, and we’re all so happy and honored that it was you that came. And the rest of it I feel like it’s just a series of letting go.

But as somebody who also makes money off of social media, and I don’t have a Patreon any more, but I’m building a media company outside of the system of traditional media, and so it feels like... I don’t know, I would actually love to throw this question to somebody in the audience. I’d love to know from you, how you engage. You have pretty hair. Just how do you want to engage with stories online? Where are you looking to for your stories, for your news, for your truths?

Amanda: Use the mic.

Noor: Also I love your necklace.

Melissa: Thank you. It’s huge and obnoxious, as it’s supposed to be. I actually appreciate you bringing up that point, because I have a dear friend of mine who also was in the Arab Springs, and is also finding a lot of his stories about Palestine are being censored. So I am definitely mindful of that, so I definitely try to get my sources from a variety of things. I use Instagram a lot, so that is part of it, but I do ry to go closer to the source.

Noor: Do you enjoy following independent journalists? We were having this conversation before the event, actually. Even when I wrote that poem, and I was only a couple of years into my journalism career, whenever people would ask me, who are the news sources you follow? Even twelve years ago, I will never say I blatantly just follow CNN, or follow New York Times, I say I follow and engage with independent journalists who have built trust with me. As a consumer of stories, you have shown me your transparency, you have shown me your intention, you have interrogated your own biases in your stories, and as people who are misrepresented I feel like you end up learning that the hard way, because you realize there is no such thing as true objectivity, until you do self-interrogation.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And same thing with that friend I mentioned, I engage in conversation with him almost daily at this point about what’s going on, because I know he will interrogate me and that he will not let a single thing I say get by without him commentating on it. So for me some of it’s first hand, I just go straight to my friends that are in Israel, or here and there. And then other times, maybe more independent journalists that I have at this point come to trust. Or I’ll just do the bigger ones, like HEretz, or Al Jazeera for those live updates. But something about them too is unlike a lot of Instagram things, they’ll name their source, and you go from there.

So I definitely kind of do case by case, but I try to give it a variety.

Noor: Do you find that anything is missing in the way that you’re consuming stories, where you’re like, I wish there was a little more of this?

Melissa: Empathy?
Noor: Woo!
Amanda: Hallelujah.
Noor: Thank you. What was your name? Melissa: Melissa.

Noor: Thanks Melissa.
Amanda: I wanna push back on something you said. Noor: Okay. I love that.

Amanda: I love that. I love this for us. I think it’s a good conversation, because I wholeheartedly agree with you at some level, that we are always meant to be where we are, and that whatever the algorithm winds up pinballing synchronistically into existence is what it is. And...

Noor: Tell me. I need this.
Amanda: We have to fight for direct, and more authentic, and more integrated connection. Noor: Yeah.

Amanda: Because if we just passively allow the algorithm to take us where we need to be, we are only in a profit-centered situation. And it’s more dangerous now, and I think we’re all starting to understand what we didn’t know, twenty years ago maybe, about the internet, even though a lot of... what do you call those people who are like, no!

Noor: Virtue signallers?

Amanda: The alarmists? I mean, they weren’t alarmists. They were the people that I remember reading about and seeing in the early days of the internet, who were like, this isn’t quite gonna work the way you think.

(Audience shout suggestions)

Noor: Wow, we’re really good at language in this room!
Amanda: Whistle-blowers? Well, I mean the prescient seers who could see the way the

internet is designed isn’t going to be sustainable the way you think. Noor: Yeah.

Amanda: It is going to turn into a profit-centric, non-egalitarian problem.

Noor: But it already has. That’s what I’m saying. I hear you on all of this. When I say that I feel like I just have to trust whoever gets it is gonna get it, it’s because it was debilitating to have to care, and to be like, this post only reached 300, 400, 1000 people? But how many people are in this room? Probably less than a hundred? You guys are a lot of people, I’m good with that.

Amanda: Well you kind of have to do both. Because putting information in any way out into the world, whether it’s independently, on a radio station, through a magazine, through any broadcasting channel at all, is faith-based. And then as an artist, as a journalist, as a person who wants to create something and share it with the world, it is always a little bit faith- based. But there is an incredible danger to just allowing the algorithm to do its work.

And I assume I irritate the fuck out of my community by constantly banging on, constantly banging on about how I need your email. I want to be able to reach you when Facebook melts, when Instagram melts, when the algorithm decides we’re just not gonna push any of Amanda Palmer or the Dresden Dolls information this month, for whatever mysterious reason. I have to have another way of reaching you directly. So please, for the love of god, give me your email, so I can find you when I have a tour! And I say it every week on some post or another.

Noor: But does anybody actually find that annoying? I feel like it’s so sincere... Amanda: I don’t know if you would tell me.

Noor: No, I feel like they would tell you. But does anybody have a suggestion... Oh my gosh, hi! Sorry, I just saw a friend. Does anybody have a suggestion if we were to move off of social media, what’s next? How do we actually connect with you all? How do we make this happen? Yes, I would love to hear from you. And tell us your name, please.

Jackie: Hi, I’m Jackie. Noor: Hi Jackie.

Jackie: I want a publicly owned public space. Because Twitter isn’t public space, and Facebook isn’t public space.

Noor: Wow!

Jackie: I want a virtual, actually publicly-owned open source space. Because the reason we keep absorbing into the atmosphere is that every tech bro solution is not publicly owned, it is not open source, and it is always going to end up needing to make money to exist, because actually, the data to run Twitter, whether it sucks or not, or Facebook, or Google, is so utterly insane it’s melting the ice caps. So we do have to actually invest, while we’re

investing in all the other climate solutions, how to own digital space in the way that we own a park. Because it is actually possible.

Amanda: Or the postal system. Or the road system.

Jackie: Sure, right. The trust in email is an example of actually, my email address is the closest thing to a physical address that is about me as a person, instead of me as a commodity. Because sending mail has always been a thing. We’ve been writing letters to each other since before we had written language, or trying to.

Amanda: That’s a great point.

Noor: Jackie, do you think that if this space were to exist, that humanity would surprise us and actually be kind, and make it... No, honestly, I’m kind of like yes, in an ideal utopia world, I love it. When you first said that, I thought of an actual, physical space. What do you think?

(Audience member inaudible)

Amanda: And let me add, there are lots and lots and lots of people out there, working on technology to moderate and regulate public space. And we all know that we need the tools, the same way the mail needs to be safe, and you can’t just stick a bomb in the mail to your neighbor. It’s illegal. And the roads need to be safe, the water needs to be safe, the social media space also needs to be safe.

Audience: One of the things that I think about is that we’re all the commodity. Noor: Yeah.

Audience: And in the postal service, we’re not the commodity, we’re the customer. And we pay for that, we pay for every letter, we pay for the salaries through our taxes of the postmen and the trucks and all that kind of stuff. And we need a social media where we again are the customer and not the commodity. We’re not the profit center.

Amanda: Yeah. Five cents per angry comment.

Audience: I have a question for Amanda. So to the Patreon and patron-funded work, what do we need all of us as music listeners and consumers to rethink? Because I think about when Napster came out, and it was not okay. But now everything is Napster, and we can just pay a fee for all of the music, and in 20 years suddenly it’s okay, and everything changed. But in order to be a patron, I’m sort of paying a Spotify subscription fee to each individual artist I like. So what would you encourage all of us ot rethink with our relationship with how we pay for art, and consume art?

Amanda: That’s such a good question. There’s several answers there. There’s my pie-in-the- sky, if it were all perfect... My pie-in-the-sky, if it were all perfect, would be that there would be some incredible blockchain technology that would follow any song anywhere it went,

people would pay some kind of premium for the privilege always of listening to music and consuming art, but it wouldn’t feel like it was breaking anyone’s personal bank, but the money would always come back, not only to the performer, but the bass player, and the engineer, and everyone who helped in the creation of this art. If the art then goes out to constantly live a life where it’s constantly appreciated, and constantly enjoyed, then there would be a constant stream of income back to the creators. How incredible would that be, if that were possible?

And right now, there’s a very sloppy system, there’s ASCAP, and there’s BMI, and there’s mechanicals and stuff, and if you write a huge hit song, you’ll see this kind of vague residual trickle-down of we think the song is getting played and enjoyed by people, so here’s some money. But it’s really inexact, really sloppy, and really isn’t very effective.

The real answer to your question is that – and my TED talk was about this, and my book was about this – we need a complete societal rehab about the relationship we have with the value of art and artists. Because we really do expect it to just be there. We just expect it to be there, we expect to be able to open a device and just go, it’s all free. Without really understanding...

Noor: There’s also an intense pressure on artists, and on storytellers, to provide it for free. I closed my Patreon after three months because I felt so guilt-ridden for taking money from people.

Amanda: Well that’s your problem!
Noor: No, I’m saying that because it absolutely is my problem, I couldn’t move through that.

Amanda: Well, and so the evil twin of flipping your computer open and going, of course all art will be free, all images will be free, everything will just be free, free, free, yay the internet, it goes hand in hand with this other insidious problem, that artists should just feel gratitude that someone even just wants to enjoy their work.

Noor: No.

Amanda: And it’s like, ugh! People really just don’t understand the mechanics of having the time, energy, and inspiration to write a song, and then learn how to write the song, play the song, record the songs, get the song into your laptop so you can listen to it. I think people, highly educated people, still kind of think it happens magically, and that the artists are just happy, and that the artists should just be happy to have been in a recording studio to make their art, and should just be happy to be being enjoyed. And it doesn’t sustain. You have to have an understanding around the cost of art, and the cost of being an artist.

And it’s weird, right? Because how do you measure the value of a song? How do you measure the value of a painting? A dance? You can’t. So the artists have to call upon he audience to be generous and creative in their support. And with my Patreon, I write constantly about how weird, and inexact, and strange it is that none of this really has a price tag, and I’m looking at Mollie, we can all kind of agree it’s all kind of made up. But guess

what? So is the fucking art. So if you can enjoy the inexactness of my song, and not be able to tell me exactly why it’s making you feel what you feel, or why it’s good, or why you want to listen to it, I can also say I can’t tell you exactly that you need to give me 15 or 50 or 500 dollars, but I can say just give me something. I need the money to make the art. So give according to your ability. Give me what you can, so that I can keep doing this.

And it takes a huge amount of hutzpah to just say, I need your help. I’m not gonna tell you how much. I’m gonna just say, give me 5 bucks, or give me 5 grand if you’re really rich, I will take it.

And a lot of people watched what happened to me in 2012 when I was like, just give me your money, I need to make a record, and I was excoriated. I was the most hated woman on the internet, for begging for money for my record. So it went well, but it also was very expensive, emotionally, to get up and say that.

audience: Can I ask a follow-up? Noor: Yeah. Name, please. Lana: Hi, I’m Lana.
Amanda: Hi Lana.

Lana: And the follow up is for both of you. So where do you guys think that the disconnect happens? Because none of us usual consumers expect to go to a coffee shop and get a coffee for free, or go to a restaurant and get a meal for free, or watch Netflix for free, or cable TV for free. So where do you guys think there is the disconnect of this intrinsical expectation that art needs to be free, and it just needs to be available for us to enjoy, at the expense of the artist, at the suffering of the artist, that we need to be able to enjoy what is produced. And not only by artists, but also by journalists and intellectual production. I’m in academia, and there is also this notion that research needs to be readily available, that you don’t need to pay for any content that is entertaining you beyond the mass media that you’re already paying for. So where do you guys see the breakage there?

Noor: So I thought of two words when Amanda was talking, kind of a breakthrough, and I’m so happy that you asked the question in that way. I think about what Melissa brought up about empathy, and the second thing is transparency.

Okay, so I oftentimes am funding my documentaries and my podcast out of my pocket. Thank you so much for that support. Because it hurts, and I always tell people, if you’re going into journalism, you have to do that shit, you have to be willing to die for that, because that is not going to make you any money. I have always put my own money into my storytelling. But I’ve never been transparent about the fact that I do that. I think that you guys are the first people that I’ve ever told that to. Wow, this is a breakthrough I’m having, shit.

I don’t know why that kind of makes me emotional, but I feel like part of it is wanting to be legitimate, and wanting to be seen as serious, and at the calibre of CNN or MSNBC or whatever. But also, I’m not trying to be like them! They are so uninteresting, and honestly they have failed us in so many ways. I have literally stayed up for nights for weeks, because I was so afraid to release a story that I thought about over and over and over again.

Last year I released a story for my investigative series called Rep, a story about the stories we tell, it’s literally about the stories we tell, and it was about how the dehumanization of Palestinian people has led to the way that American people think, and how it has shaped our culture and society, and I think I thought myself sick for weeks, for weeks I was so afraid to release this story. And I had to examine this fear in my body, and be like, why am I so afraid to talk about the fact that I was so afraid to do this?

And that level of transparency, to me, is so sacred. If I don’t find that in the stories I am consuming, I am not interested any more. I need to know that you actually care about telling the truth. That you are not imposing on me, that you are not trying to control me, that you are not trying to manipulate me, that you are simply seeing me as a human, and wanting to tell the truth, and I feel like that level of transparency needs to be talked about. The amount of work and money that goes into these productions needs to be talked about. I’m saying all this to myself, so thank you very much.

And then the level of empathy. This is what I’m hearing, because we can say all of this stuff in this room, and I know that in this room, obviously I trust and believe that nobody hates me, and I don’t hate anybody, and that’s the ground level at which we’re entering. But for some reason, as soon as we go on the internet, empathy doesn’t exist, and we assume the very worst of everyone. So when Amanda here is telling you all that she crowdfunded to make her album, we’re all snapping and clapping, but the second she says that online, we’re like, who do you think you are, and what are you gonna do with every cent of that money, and you’re an artist, why do you need to make a million dollars, and that doesn’t even make sense, and all of a sudden, that to me, that lack of empathy, is not a lack of empathy towards Amanda, it is a lack of empathy upon the person. I think that we dehumanize ourselves before anybody and anything. And until we have done the work of interrogating our own stories, our own biases, the lens in which we see the world, we will never be able to tap into the empathy that is radical enough to actually create the world that we want to live in.

And so the disconnect comes from, we need to be inspaces like this in person, where we look each other in the eye, where we hug each other, where we hug strangers, where we say I love you, and I see you, no matter who you are, no matter what blood runs through your veins. And we also need to be like, and hey by the way, I’m working on this project, and I really think that you would be a great fit.

And I’m just starting, just now – side note, and little announcement, we’re trying to bring back the Oprah, Phil Donoghue-style show. As you can see, you all are the guinea pigs. And we’re doing it ourselves. And we’re trying to bring back town hall discussions that exist like this, where everybody can just speak freely. But I really feel, as from what you’re saying, it’s gonna take us. It’s just gonna take us, and it’s gonna take guts.

Amanda: That’s gonna be such an important medicine to the way the internet has aloned us, the way the internet has seemingly, superficially connected us, but has really created a disorienting separation between people. And then Covid did not help.

So there’s a second, kind of more boring answer for you, just about the music industry. Because you don’t see things quite so bad in, say, the literary world. People do expect to pay for a book, even if it’s on a computer. And so why wouldn’t that translate to people saying, well of course I’m gonna pay a dollar for this song, or even 50 cents for this song, it’s a song. It has a value. And the boring and unfortunate answer is unfortunately the music industry really fucked up. And when the literary industry, the book industry, saw what happened to the music industry, they were like, oh no. No no no no no! Books will not be free! And everyone was like... okay.

Noor: Except at the library!

Amanda: But it was too late for the songs! The songs were free, and the books stayed caged on the shelf with a price tag, and everyone accepted it. Think about your biases. Think about how you would feel if you went onto the internet tomorrow, and every song that you expected to just flow freely in your car, and while you were making breakfast, and while you were at a party, all of a sudden it was like no no no, every song that you listen to is gonna cost you a quarter. You’d be pissed!

And then things changed. So the disconnect also was a failure of the industry. A huge failure of the industry.

Tell us your name?
Jackie: I’m Jackie, I’m talking again. Amanda: Oh, it’s Jackie again! Hi Jackie!

Jackie: Hi! I worked at an independent book store for three years. And so yeah, books cost money, and. One of the reasons I wanted to respond was the book thing. I think one of the reasons we don’t have a concept like we have of books of music, is that when you go to the coffee shop, when you go to the restaurant, there’s just free music playing. You’re paying the barista for being your DJ, to have a vibe in your favorite coffee shop. And the only place that doesn’t really happen is in the library, where they give you the books for free.

Amanda: That’s a good point!

Jackie: So it’s a pretty weird... right? It’s a pretty weird situation that we don’t do ambience without music, so music as this thing that just happens has a little bit more of that. And then I think that yes, thank god the publishing industry tried at all to be an industry that wasn’t gonna stop having artists. And there is only one price you get to pay for a book. It is super regulated. That means most of your independent book stores can’t afford to be open, because they can’t actually pay a living wage, because they cannot make any money that

the publishers haven’t decided they’re making. And it is really, really hard. And I wanted to bring that up because it goes back to the independence, but also the public space, and the notion that ownership isn’t the only model, and it can’t be the only model, when conglomerates have eaten the whole world.

Amanda: Agreed.
Noor: Jackie, thank you! Love hearing from you.

Amanda: I have never really thought about the fact that the library is the only place where you don’t get free music, but you get free books. I just had a breakthrough!

Noor: You mean you’ve never rented a CD or a tape from the library? Amanda: No, it’s just a beautiful poem!

Noor: Honestly, protect libraries at all costs, libraries are the most important thing. As a child, I’m still obsessed with libraries, especially because they have free crossword puzzles, that’s where you can get the free crossword puzzles. As a child, it used to be my biggest fear that libraries would one day make you pay for books, because I remember thinking, it’s so important to have these books accessible.

Accessibility is also a huge thing that I feel like for me is so important. I’ve always felt like my stories feel like, for me, that they save lives. I produced a documentary about the sex trade, I spent four years investigating the sex trade, and I remember one woman messaged me and said that she had realized that she was being trafficked, sex trafficked, after listening to my podcast. And I sent it to my team, and I was like, if this woman was the only person who had listened to this story, that this was who it was for. And I feel like that has always really stayed with me.

And so even when we do want to charge for an event or whatever it is, or for a virtual event, I try to do the sliding scale, so that if somebody cannot actually pay for this, you never have to. But if you can, I want people to want to. That’s where I’m at. I haven’t figured it out, I don’t know. But it feels tricky for me.

Amanda: Well, it is very tricky. And the indulgence that I ask from my patrons is, please join me in this incredibly inexact exercise. Because a song will never be worth a dollar, or a thousand dollars, or a hundred thousand dollars. A song will just be of value, and I need to live, eat, and survive, which is gonna cost money. Let’s make a deal.

And you have to be very brave to say that, because we live in a society that wants, that demands an exactitude around value. And man, you just can’t do it with art. And, I mean this gets into a whole conversation around can you put a value on parenting? Can you put a value on raising a child well instead of slaving away at something else? And I think when we are able, I’m looking at Adam again, when we’re able to even talk about this, and recognize what’s going on, we’re already miles ahead of where we are right now. Because I think so many people, so many smart people, don’t really think about where it comes from.

Noor: Yeah.

Amanda: Where the child-rearing comes from, where the art comes from, where the research comes from. And we are spoiled right now. I feel like when we look back at this society, the embarrassment around us not understanding where things were coming from is gonna be the giant shame over this culture.

Noor: But I think that that is changing, and evolving. And the way that I am seeing it right now, especially with Gen Z, and even I would say myself, I am completely re-evaluating where I put my dollars. I am actually asking, if you were to look at my outfit right now and ask me where I got everything, I would be able to tell you where, and why, and how, and the story behind it. And this part of the, I want people to be excited to support my work. I really, really, really want them to be like, I see myself in this, I want to be a part of this too. And I think that that is gonna take a lot of guts from the storytellers and artists themselves, and you do that really, really amazing. I don’t know anybody who does it like the way that you do, because you’ve been able to actually live off of this.

Amanda: Well let’s bring the conversation back around to the beginning, and the cost of having any kind of power, platform, celebrity, reach. Because it gets tricky once you have the mic, once you have a power and platform. Because then telling the truth is very different than when you’re just raging at 15 or 17 in your bedroom, and you just don’t have a ton to lose.

Noor: Well now you do, if you’re posting online as a teenager.

Amanda: Yeah, that’s true actually. But to me, this is the juicy part of this conversation, which is what’s happening, someone like me, someone like you, doing risky work in journalism, I would call some of my work risky songwriting, songwriting that takes risks and demands a lot of myself in the truth-telling department, and a lot from my audience in the accepting it department. And I see the whole world turned upside down right now, just in terms of what’s allowed, what’s expected, what’s appropriate, what’s punished, what’s rewarded, both in journalism, and in music.

And I think if we’re gonna be having a really big, important conversation about this stuff, about the songs, about the art, about the journalism, the thing – and I would love you to just riff on this and talk about it – we have to examine, and again it comes back to do we expect our artists to be politically pure, pure of heart, never make a mistake, never make a gaffe, never say something offensive on the internet. And it feels like right now, truth has never been more expensive. The cost, the risk of telling the truth is going up, it’s hitting a premium. And this has always been true, and also depends who, when, where in history, which group, because of course people have been punished for telling certain kinds of truths from the beginning of time, and I don’t think either of us are going to leave this room frightened that we’re gonna be arrested outside the Rubin and beheaded.

But those times do exist, and have existed, and will continue to exist. So what do we think about that right now, and what’s the antidote?

Noor: Raise your hand if you know for sure, if you have witnessed with your own two eyes, exactly what happens after we die?

No matter what... You’ve seen?

Amanda: You just got a question, a follow up.

Noor: You have a really big...

(audience member inaudible)

Amanda: Can you hold for the mic? Just because we’re recording, and we don’t want it to get lost.

Audience: I work in hospice, and I’m around death a lot, and I’m personally fascinated with death, and what I’m doing is I am preparing myself as much as I can for the ultimate moment of whatever it is. But it’s interesting you asked that, because no. I wish, right? I wish. There is so much knowledge, and so much information from that experience in itself, and it would be so amazing to come back and say, hey. I’ve been there.

Amanda: I would be very, very careful about wishing this. Noor: Can I share with you why I ask?
Audience: Yeah.

Noor: Because it’s this question, this thing, this obsession with death, this fear of dying, that I believe we are at the place that we are today in the world. I think that if you were to peel this shit back over and over and over again, it’s because people are trying to control what is going to happen after, what they choose to believe about what happens after, because most people in their convictions around that are very, very strong, and sometimes when you start to hammer at it or pick at it, and then you’re like, yeah but nobody actually knows, it kind of shakes people’s world.

And when I thought about this the first time and blurted it out to a group of a hundred people, I facilitated a ten week program called Rep Club, which studied the investigative project I did. And the reason I ended up blurting it out was because my follow-up to that is I believe that the reason that we are on his planet is to ask questions, and to examine the concept of truth. Because at the end of the day, the one truth that is for sure for every single one of us, none of us actually have it. And so maybe the point isn’t to actually know the singular truth of what happens after, maybe the entire point is just to embark on what I like to call the quest of the question. To actually just go on the journey.

And I feel like, to bring it back to what you were saying around the cost of telling the truth, yeah sure the cost of telling the truth is gonna be expensive every time, but that is why we are alive. We are alive because we get to have the choice to put everything on the line to

tell the truth. And this is what I realized in the last month, as we’ve been seeing things happen, is that there is a deep-seated fear that people have around examining their own concept of truth, and what they believe. And if you feel afraid, if you feel afraid to tell your truth, or to witness the truth of another, then my question to you is, do you actually believe you are a free person? Because to me, my experience, why I want to be human, is to experience true liberation. To experience what it really means to be a free, independent thinker, and human, or soul, existing in this flesh suit that I happen to be wearing on this life. And I think that telling the truth, and engaging with the opportunity to tell the truth, is the whole point.

I’m down to lose everything, if it means that I can say what I truly believe, and what I have seen with my own eyes, and to actually witness the people in front of me. I don’t care. And that’s why I feel like today, standing on this stage before you all, freer than I ever have in my entire life, and this has been the hardest year of my life, I have asked questions I never thought I could say out loud.

Up until May, for the last 15 years of my life, I was covering my hair. And then I finally decided, you know what, maybe I should examine that, I don’t know about that choice. Just right now, for me, right now. But it ripped apart my world, and my reality, and I realized, oh. Duh. No matter how much people tell you that you are weak, that you lack faith, that you don’ tknow what you’re talking about, no, you actually have the answers, and you have the opportunity and the birthright to ask questions, so don’t be afraid to ask.

Amanda: I posted this the other day, I did a benefit called Remembering Sinéad a couple weeks ago, here in New York, at City Winery. And I didn’t write a big speech beforehand, but I thought before I went on stage that evening about what I wanted to say. And watching you tonight, and listening to what you just said, makes me think so much about her. So much about her, and what she said, and what it cost, and what happened.

And one of the things that I said to the audience that night was it doesn’t matter if people around you are telling you that you are brave, for getting up and shaking your fist, and telling the truth, and ripping up a picture of the pope, or whatever. What mattered, I think, in Sinéad’s case, is that people told her she was brave, but she didn’t get the call for the next gig. And she was also navigating the 90s, where her ability to directly reach anyone who loved her music was in a stranglehold.

And I don’t mean it at all disrespectfully when I wonder what would have happened with Sinéad if she had had the tools that we have. If she had been able to say, you know what, fuck you record label, I didn’t want you anyway. Fuck you 90s equivalent of LiveNation, Ticketmaster, whatever promoters, agents, gatekeepers, all gatekeepers of every stage, and every recording studio, and every CD manufacturing plant. If she had been able to walk away from that with all of the goodwill that was felt towards her, all of the goodwill that was everywhere around the world, who wanted to hear her voice, her voice, her story, her take. If she had been able to directly reach those people, I think we would have had a very different artist. And we didn’t get that.

And I think the appreciation that we should have right now, and the responsibility that you have, that an audience has, a reader of news, of music, is to not take for granted the power that we can harness if we just do it together, and we skip over the mainstream dictate, the mainstream narrative.

And it really is as simple and as uncomfortable as Noor’s saying I need you to sign up to my channel, and here is how to do it, and here’s a pen, well a digital pen, and actually follow along. And me saying I want every single one of you to consider joining my Patreon, so that I can pay rent next month, and make songs like the one you heard, and this is gonna fund The Dresden Dolls album, and the money’s not gonna come from the sky, it’s gonna come from people like Molly, it’s gonna come from you. And if we can work on making the tools, the fear at least from the artist and from the journalist around telling the truth, and being buried by the system, by the algorithm, by whatever, is going to lessen, and the power of our connection, and the power of the truth and the sharing will grow. And then we will have progress.

Noor: It goes without saying that I really believe that us, in our bodies, and who we are today on this stage, wouldn’t be without the doors somebody like Sinéad O’Connor opened. And everything Amanda said just now, I know we have it in us. I know we have the empathy, I know we have the ability to see one another, it’s there, we feel it. It’s such a funny thing, this whole empathy thing. Because it’s like every single time, every single time I see people face to face, that is the thing that they feel like they’re desperately yearning for, but then the thing that we use the most, that we pretend engages us with actual community, somehow it has completely lacked.

And when Sinéad passed, there was this brilliant, beautiful photo, which I wish I could hang in my house. It was a photo of her, with her hair covered in a hijab, whilst smoking a cigarette. Her face is a face of lifetimes of pain, and of journey, and of self-interrogation and awareness that many of us will never know.

And on that photo, somebody put, stop treating women like shit while they’re alive. Amanda: Stop treating women like shit while they’re alive.
Noor: I love that. Good job.
Amanda: Oh my god. That said it all.

Noor: That’s it. We have it in us. Because every single time one of our favorite artists passes away, that’s when we decide to write our eulogy, their eulogy, we decide to tell them how much we love them. Tell the people you love that you love them now. If you appreciate someone’s work, tell them. I promise you...

Amanda: And give them money! Noor: That’s what Amanda says!

Amanda: I’m gonna say it! We need to wrap.
Noor: Yeah. Anyway, I feel like we just both quoted stop treating women like shit while

they’re alive, and that was a good wrap.

Amanda: That was a good place to drop the mic. We have to wrap because we’ve already gone over time.

Noor: We’re not allowed to take one question, I wanna know their voices. Amanda: Do we have time for one more quickie question?
Noor: Tim!
Tim: Always time for one more.

Noor: Please!
Amanda: Okay, one more. Don’t ask us the meaning of life. Just a quickie. Noor, pick

someone and we’ll run the mic out. Noor: Hi. Yes.
Amanda: Over here.

Desi: Hi, thank you. My name is Desi, and I wanted to actually respond to Amanda. I’ve been a follower of The Dresden Dolls, and Patreon, and Kickstarters, and all of that, and I don’t pay for songs. I pay for your truth-telling. I pay for your humanity, I pay for the connection.

Amanda: Thank you.

Desi: And I think this is the same. There’s so much, so many of us here who are voting not just with our money, but with our time, with our love, because you give us strength, because you make us feel less alone, because your humanity is a reflection of ours, and it goes back and forth in this virtuous loop of connection. And so, it’s not about the commodity of the songs. It’s about the relationality of what we create both here, and online, and everywhere. So please do ask us for money, we will give whatever we can.

Amanda: I will. And here’s my ask, and this is a great way to wrap, is an ask from me, and Noor, and those like us who are willing to put our own money down, not work with the giant corporations, fund our own projects, risk our own money in order to hope that on the other side the support is gonna be there to catch us. It relies, the whole thing working, relies on a shift of consciousness, and a room full of people like this, going alright, I’m gonna follow Noor’s channel, I’m gonna consider being Amanda’s patron, even for a dollar.

But more importantly, in discussion, at dinner tables, with co-workers, with friends, and on the internet, consider adding to the narrative. I saw that you liked this article, I saw that

you’re a fan of The Dresden Dolls, do you support the Patreon? Do you give them money? I do, it’s great, you should. You should consider that. To continue to normalize this, what it is that at the end of the day we really need. Because at the end of the day, journalists, artists, independent anythings working outside of tech-bro world, and major label world, and the total for-profit world, we need funding. And it needs to be normal.

And so, a group of people like this going, I’m gonna actually spend a little bit of time on that, I’m gonna talk to people about that, I’m going to address it, I’m gonna leave a comment and say, how can we fund it? How can we help? How can I help? Do you need money? And if that shift in consciousness continues, and Kickstarter became normal, patronage hopefully becoming normal, this person can make a living, and eventually if the pile is big enough, you’ll just have 50 grand, 100 grand, to be like, I’ve hired the team, we’re going to investigate this story, because the trust will be built over time, the way the trust with an artist is built over time.

So go be those people. This room. Go be those people.

Noor: I guess that’s how we also get the art and the stories that we actually want. We’re all sitting here complaining about the way that the media is running, or mainstream music as well, and I’m just like yeah, well if you really want that, then you have to support the people who are willing to put everything on the line to be of service.

And with that, I’m Noor Tagouri, at your service.

Amanda: Ciao! Thank you very much. And I would just like to thank the people, I know there are people who have come to every talk, I want to give one last huge shout-out and thank you to the tech team, and to Tim here at the Rubin, for hosting this incredible conversation series, every single one of these talks has been interesting, and challenging, and beautiful, and thank you to Noor for coming tonight, and thank you all. Support the museum! And please come back to the museum, and come back to more events. This didn’t happen by accident, Tim invited us, so thank you.

Tim: And Amanda curated this series so exquisitely, to give us facets of how we can responsibly and with awareness work through this world. And we’ve talked a lot about taking things for granted tonight, and this conversation in a way has been a metaphor for the condition of the world, that we’ve taken a lot of sources for granted. We need to enquire where they come from, we need to know what the application is of our responsibility, and how the cost of being unaware bleeds out into a fractured society.

And so, what has this got to do with the Rubin? Well, Noor and Amanda, you created a town hall tonight, rather exquisitely, having shared opinions and experiences, and that’s exactly the experience that we want to encourage up on the sixth floor in the exhibition Death Is Not The End, where you can share out your fears about death, or indeed your hope for the afterlife. So go and do that before you leave this house, and engage with these things that we fear, because that’s the only way we’re gonna work through them, and we’ve got two extraordinary exemplars on stage about how that can be done. Thank you both so, so much.

(Transcript) 38. What Does it Mean To Make Movement Accessible? Live Panel in Partnership with On

Noor (00:00):

3, 2, 1. Hello, beautiful community. Welcome back to Podcast Noor. This storytelling session is a special live experience. We recorded this podcast panel a few days before the 2023 New York City Marathon as one part of a partnership with the sportswear brand ON, and their social impact arm called Right to Run. On has been my go-to, for walking, running, working, out, and they just feel like clouds on my feet. Anyway, this conversation is about democratizing movement and what it really looks like to make movement and exercise accessible for all people. Our three panelists come from different experiences, being indigenous and an immigrant, navigating addiction and homelessness, and finding or rather creating safe spaces for folks. You'll hear me introduce them fully shortly, but I want to bring you into the space. We are in Williamsburg, Brooklyn at the on store in their upstairs community space. Before people were able to enter, they were greeted by my mama and the founder of ISeeYou Foundation where every attendee made an ISeeYou care package for people experiencing homelessness in New York City.

Noor (01:23):

That was Adam's idea, welcoming guests with an act of service. Then around 50 of us gathered upstairs with pizza and the delightful on team, and we got into our bodies and got vulnerable about obstacles that we find in our way. My favorite part of this event was how engaged community members were. This is a very full conversation, voices from all over the world. Literally, the energy in the room is of collective healing and collective winning. Everyone is rooting for the other even when fear is present. And you'll hear my own experience with that when I share my own fears around running and a community member who stops me in my tracks. We are so excited to share more from our project with on's right to run. Enjoy the storytelling session on breaking barriers to movement. I'm Noor, At Your Service. 

Okay guys, I have to tell you raise, like, make some noise if you made an ISeeYou care package before you came in.

Noor (02:27):

Wow. So that was, uh, mama, tell everybody say hi. Say give. This is my mom. She founded ISeeYou Foundation and um, on our first call about this event, Adam, my partner in all of the things, this is Adam, he, uh, pitched, he pitched an idea that, um, everyone would have to make a care package before coming in to the event to set an intention of being of service. So, thanks Adam for your brains. Thanks mama, for coming here and guiding all of us in these jigsaw puzzle ways. 'cause as you all have experienced, it's not the easiest thing to do to put together these care packages. And thank you Lauren and Olivia and the rest of the on team. We're so happy to be here. Okay, so I am going to, um, before we introduce our incredible panelists and get into the conversation today, I'm just gonna ask everybody, um, raise your hand if you've had like a really intense, heavy last few weeks. Keep your hand up if you've like, had really hard conversations you never thought you'd have to have. Yeah.

Noor (03:37):

Okay, cool. So same. So I'm gonna ask everyone to like, just close our eyes for a minute and we're just gonna do some breathing so that we can get into our body because like, we are so, So, So, so lucky and so blessed to be here. We're so blessed to be alive. Um, so I'm gonna just do like three breaths, four, inhale count four hold four exhale. You can make all the noise that you want and just like, Just Come into your body. Be here. 'cause you're here right now. So, all right, it's gonna be four. Inhale, 2, 3, 4. Hold, 2, 3, 4. Exhale

Noor (04:25):

In Hold. Exhale.

Noor (04:38):

One more.

Speaker 2 (04:43):

Hold and exhale. Wow,

Noor (04:53):

I needed that so much, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I know for, for many of us here, we have seen, we have witnessed, we have been eyewitnesses to some really horrifying things. Um, and my heart is with people and civilians in Palestine right now who are

Noor (05:18):

Going through it. So my intention for tonight is that as we talk about democratizing movement, we are also honoring, um, and, and sending love to people who are not able to actually move, whether it be in their own physical bodies, whether it be in their own spaces and where they're living, whether it be because, um, they simply in themselves haven't been able to like, you know, be embodied enough to, to do the movement that is required of them or that their body is yearning for. Which is why I'm so honored to be speaking to all three of you today because each of of you have have actually in your own right, broken barriers to movement. So I'm gonna kick off some introductions. Our first one is Gaby Alcala, who is an Aztec mixed tech indigenous woman from Oaxaca who immigrated to the United States at age 19.

Noor (06:17):

She started her running journey 10 years ago, and in that time she met an amazing coach who believed in her potential as a long distance runner. She has since been pushing the limits of her body, including participating in the speed project with a team of six women, as well as a 340 mile prayer run, which I'm very excited to ask her about. With the indigenous people in Utah, she has run 50 mile races, several marathons, half marathons, and five Ks. And Gabby is an athlete advocating at rising hearts, which is a running collective focused on social change. She's also a mother and a neuromuscular therapist who understands all the struggles the body goes through in long distance running. Gabby, we have Sen Van Beek all the way from Amsterdam, Woohoo Sen is the founder of We Are, a gym in Amsterdam. And as a non-binary person, Sen has experienced a lot of stress in the gym, despite sports being the thing that boosted their confidence. Sen wanted to fill a need for transgender and people who deal with the struggle and anxiety of exercising in group settings. And Sen's dream is to create a safe place for the lgbtqia plus community to exercise any way they want in the comfort of their own space and bodies. Sin.

Noor (07:58):

Derek Drescher. You may have seen his face as you walked into the store today. He is a services specialist for Back On My Feet, a nonprofit that uses running as a catalyst for people who are displaced or unhoused. Derrick himself has battled with homelessness and addiction, and it was running, that became his tool to sobriety. So one of the things that Derrick said to me that like has been blowing my mind was that he actually ran his first marathon less than a year after his last overdose. Am I correct in saying that? Right around that time? So this super Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I actually wanted to also kick us off because like, I feel like with addiction, it's like one of those things that raise your hand if you know somebody or you yourself or you've just encountered at all. Anyone who has struggled with addiction in your life, that's like an overwhelming majority of this room. And yet, and yet it is not something that is talked about as often in, in like group settings. Do you, do you find that to be true?

Derek (09:07):

Uh, yeah. And also, you know, so many people struggle with addiction and I just think that the way it's looked at and how you might get treated if you ask for help keeps people from not talking about it.

Noor (09:21):

Ooh, accountability on all of

Derek (09:23):

Us. Yeah. So then you just fall apart until everybody knows Anyway, so,

Noor (09:27):

Well, okay, so I wanna get to that. First I'm gonna ask you, how's your heart doing today, Derek?

Derek (09:32):

My

Noor (09:32):

Heart. My, your heart.

Derek (09:34):

Like physically or emotionally, however

Noor (09:36):

You feel inclined to answer that. The question is coming to you guys too.

Derek (09:39):

I feel, I feel good. I feel good. Yeah.

Noor (09:41):

Yes. In your body.

Derek (09:43):

My body, yeah. Body mind. Yeah. I'm happy to be here.

Noor (09:45):

Beautiful. Gabby, how's your heart doing today? Do you not have a mic? Do we not have two other mics?

Speaker 4 (09:52):

Oh,

Noor (09:54):

Gotta pass the mic here.

Speaker 4 (09:58):

<inaudible>. Yes. Um, my heart is full and gratitude for the opportunity to be here, um, sharing our stories and in a different city, uh, my city. And I'm sorry if I get like, emotional. Um, I'm very a cry baby. <laugh>. So you can say that. My heart is very soft. Yes. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (10:23):

Well, it's, it's amazing to, uh, to be invited for, for such a thing to share your story. So I think my heart is very full of love and excitement to, um, to talk to you all. Yeah.

Noor (10:41):

Thank you all so much. Do we have mics? Okay. So Derek, yes. I would love for you to kick us off. Can you tell me, tell us the story about the run that changed everything for you?

Derek (10:56):

Uh, there was two, there's two that stick out to me. The, the first run I had. So just so people have a little context, I, uh, it was a horrible, uh, heroin addict, uh, had like a four bundle a day habit at one point. It's a lot of heroin. And, uh, I ended up with nothing. I had overdosed quite a few times. The second time they brought me back to life, they, you know, they had to gimme two shots of Suboxone. Um, if it wasn't for my brother, it was the one who dragged me into the er room. But, um, I, the nurse came to me after, after they, uh, after they got me stable and I could like talk. And she told me, she's like, you're the only one that we saved this week. Whoa. Yeah. And, uh, I did use again after that, but it wasn't with like the same ferocious.

Derek (11:49):

And, uh, I basically ended up in this program on 43rd and eighth. And, uh, through there is where I got introduced to back on my Feet, which is, uh, that nonprofit organization that I, I now work for. He was running as a catalyst, you know, to help you get back on your feet. And, uh, my first run, you know, you gotta realize I'm going, you know, I had like a pause, which is post-acute withdrawal. I wasn't sleeping well, I was on a bunch of medication. I'd gained a ton of weight. And, uh, that first mile, they call it the Miracle Mile, it took me about 14 minutes. And then within a year of that time, I had run my first marathon in under four hours. And it was That's amazing. It was mild. Nice. That's

Noor (12:36):

Amazing. Yeah.

Derek (12:40):

I also wanna say that's the best marathon I've ever ran ever in my life. <laugh>. I never came close, ever again. <laugh>. So, uh, mile 25 of my, of my first New York City marathon. Uh, I remember I didn't have like a nice watch at the time. I just had like a regular digital, and I was looking at the watch and I saw the 25 mile marker and I was like, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna make it an under four. I don't think I'm gonna do it. And then I was like, you've worked so hard to get where you are. You know, you're, you're not using drugs like your family's back in your life. You, you made every mile of this of the training. Like you, you did it all. And I started to cry as I was running and I was like, no, no, chill, chill. You need this <laugh> <laugh>. I was like, you need, you need this for, you know, for this last, you know, push you're gonna do. And then, yeah, I ended up three hours, 58 minutes and 46 seconds. Wow. So, yeah. Yeah.

Noor (13:42):

It's amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Noor (13:49):

Hi there. I want to share with you a good deeded opportunity. At ISeeYouFoundation, we work to alleviate local homelessness and directly serve community members in need. We do this through our community pantry, family food bags, hygiene kits, snack bags, winter care packages, and grocery gift cards. Lately we've been seeing incredible impact by partnering with businesses and organizations to host volunteer events where their teams make and distribute the ISeeYouCare bags. ISeeYouis our response to a community member who, when we asked what she needed most responded with, we just need to be seen. So if you would like to join us in seeing and serving the community, email us at contact@iyfoundation.org. Okay. Back to the show. Gabby, what is, tell us the story about the run that changed your life.

Speaker 4 (14:52):

I, I mean, every single run is a special because it has a different meaning. It depends on how emotional emotionally or spiritually you are. But the first one that, um, that actually changed how I see running is when I run my first marathon in 2017, uh, in our co-chair. Uh, accordingly to the asset calendar, we follow the trena, the twenties of, uh, it was 20 years that I was living in the States. Um, and that was a prayer run for water is life in the moment. We were, um, advocating for water is life, uh, with the North Dakota people. So I wanna be grateful for the opportunity and following my traditions on the 20 years is when your life change. And lemme tell you that your, my life has changed so much. So in 20 years, uh, I was giving tanks for the opportunity to live in Tonga land.

Speaker 4 (15:54):

I mean, LA and my community recognized me, uh, for the world that I do in the indigenous community with the feather. So that day we have, uh, new Year's, Aztec New Year's, and my community recognized me because I was about to run my first marathon. And, uh, elders from the indigenous community in la, they talked to me and they guide me and the Tonga people like, give me the blessings, um, because we were doing it the right way. So I under, uh, in that moment, I understand the importance of asking permission to live where we live and connect with indigenous people where we are. And also, uh, bringing my own traditions and combining them because at the end, it's everything about the land, the community, and the people. And that was a super beautiful experience. And I can say that that changed my life, my, the way that I see life, because I was having the purpose, not just for me in the moment of running, because I was celebrating 20 years, uh, in the States, but also I was praying, running for what is life and the people that was in the, in the front sand and for the people that deserve clean water, because water, people would think that money is the goal, water is goal, and water is what give us life.

Speaker 4 (17:29):

So that's, thank

Speaker 2 (17:30):

You. That's beautiful. Thank you.

Noor (17:37):

The run that changed everything.

Speaker 5 (17:40):

Well, I don't run

Noor (17:42):

<laugh>, the <laugh> the workout that changed everything.

Speaker 5 (17:46):

<laugh>. Um, I think, so I used to, before opening, uh, my gym, I was, uh, in and before Covid, uh, I was in, um, training for a competition in two Strongmen, um, which is basically lifting really heavy stuff and strange objects. Um, <laugh> Yeah, <laugh>, it's no other way around it, but, um, it's, um, yeah, I was training in order to compete and I was like, through the first round, so I was able to attend the competition and then Covid hit and everything got canceled. Um, so it's actually not like I've never actually competed. Um, but then like, as a non-binary person, um, doing a sport called strongman is kind of binary. Um, so that's also something that I'm now, uh, looking into. Uh, and I'm back on my training schedule. Uh, so hopefully next year or year after I'll do my first competition.

Noor (18:55):

Oh, whoa. That's amazing. Yeah. Congratulations. Tell me about the, the moment that you realized you wanted to open this gym.

Speaker 5 (19:03):

Oh, um, yeah. So figuring out your whole gender identity and just really, um, trying to listen for, to your body. Like for me it really was like, I sometimes say like, I was like locked up in my body from like, age of like 12 to like 27. That's when I figured out what non-binary was and like that that actually fitted me. Um, so being locked up in your body for such a long time, but feeling the need to like, work out and like attend like sport places and stuff like that, but never really feeling like you fitted in because it was always like, I was never one of the guys and I was always never one of the girls. So I also never knew like, who I was like belonging to or wanting to meet up with. Um, and back then I was, uh, so I was active in the community, so I did like, meet up with people from the community.

Speaker 5 (20:07):

Um, but there was always something that really like stopped me from enjoying sports. And then I came out as non-binary, started living my life, starting to figure out who I was and starting to more and more notice that I wanted to work out. I wanted to be in a gym. I wanted to build on my body. I wanted to feel like strong and like everything that I always felt from within. Um, but yeah, still had the problem. There was, uh, coaches not understanding what I was saying. So coaches thought like, oh, oh, you wanna lose weight, or you want to like, gain weight or you like, you wanna like achieve like certain numbers to be able to lift or stuff like that. And that was all not what I was saying because it was all with my gender dysphoria that, um, they didn't understand. And also back then I didn't know how to like tell someone that didn't experience the same things.

Noor (21:11):

So you filled a need?

Speaker 5 (21:13):

Yes. And then I thought like, well, I'm a strong person, I can get done <laugh>, like <laugh>, why not start a degree in personal training, figuring out if I like this stuff and build a gym myself. So we started a campaign called Build That Gym. Wow. And, um, did a crowdfunding and then six months later we opened up.

Noor (21:37):

That's incredible. Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you, Derek. Yes. How'd you do it, man?

Derek (21:48):

How,

Noor (21:49):

Yeah, like how, like what was the self-talk like? What were the conversations you had with yourself? Was community a factor in it?

Derek (21:56):

Yeah. Community was a big part of it. Tell me more. Uh, so the, the program right back on my feet partners with the program that, you know, I'm, I'm living in, right? So it's like I'm getting, uh, two, I'm getting like double treatment, you know what I mean? Because now I'm part of this running team. And then I'm also like working on my substance abuse issues inside of the program. But I only joined because they were given everybody sneakers,

Noor (22:30):

<laugh>,

Derek (22:31):

And I didn't have anything. So I was like, I'm gonna join. I'm gonna get some, I'm gonna get some Nikes. And, uh, it, uh, it, I, it didn't really, I was so aloof. I had, I was so detached. I had no idea like what was happening in the world around me. Like the, uh, there's volunteers that come out and run with us in the morning, and I thought that these people like worked for the organization. And then when I found out that they were volunteers, I was like, what is wrong with you people? Why, why are you waking up at four 30 in the morning to come hang out with me? This is ridiculous. And, you know, they hug a lot

Noor (23:08):

<laugh>.

Derek (23:09):

And in the beginning I was like, oh, don't touch me. All right, nobody <laugh> just leave me alone. But, um, they, they, and then they would talk to you on the run, the volunteers the whole time. They're like, oh, tell me what's going on, this and that. And I'd be like, yo, lady, shut up. I'm, I'm gonna die. Like, I can't <laugh>, I can't breathe. And then eventually what happens is, you know, they're asking you about your day. They don't care about, you know, what you did in your past. They just wanna assist you with getting to where you're going. And then I wanted to give everybody a hug and I was asking everybody how their day was. And it just, you know, if it was brainwashing, it was a good kind <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be where I am without those people for sure.

Noor (23:58):

Like at what point in that journey did you realize that sobriety was like kind of the move for you?

Derek (24:06):

Well, I, I knew I had like, um, even though I knew I was sober at that time and clean, you never know, especially with heroin, it's very tough. Uh, or opiates in general. It's like this thing that's always hanging over you. 'cause I try to get clean before I'd get like 30 days, 60 days, and I would relapse. And, uh, you want, you wanna know when I knew it was the move. Yeah.

Noor (24:28):

I wanna know,

Derek (24:29):

All right, this has nothing to do with running. Right. But I was walking down eighth Avenue, like, you get passes after you've been clean for a little bit, they let you go, you know, buy stuff, candy cigarettes. And I was walking down eighth Avenue, it was 2014 I think, and I was wearing a, a Sean Jean Velo suit <laugh>, and nobody else was wearing one. And then I was looking at the billboards and I was like, who the Hardy's people? And then I was like, oh, the world is passing me by and I need to, the world's not gonna change for me. I need to change for the world. And that was, yeah. Wow. Yeah,

Noor (25:13):

That's like something I've really, really, really realized in the last, I mean, I've been realizing it a lot, but I feel like in the last couple of weeks it's been more clear that like we cannot change people. We cannot impose ourselves onto people. We cannot change the world. Like the actual thing of changing the world is changing yourself. Like that is because when you change yourself, you are in like inevitably changing your actual reality or changing your actual world, and then you get to design the world that you want to live in. And I'm so happy to hear that you like. You got that. Yeah. And you're here. Yeah. And now you're the face of this store,

Derek (25:51):

<laugh>.

Noor (25:52):

Woo.

Derek (25:55):

Thank

Noor (25:55):

You Gabby. The prayer run. Can you just like guide us through what is, what a prayer run is? Because I remember even like when we had our first conversation, just hearing you talk about running, I was like, this is very much a spiritual act. Like, it's like you, you engage in running as like your feet and your body connecting with the very earth that you're touching in every movement. What is a prayer run and why is running so spiritual for you?

Speaker 4 (26:25):

Um, prayer run is a ceremony. Um, is like, is the same, you know, when you go to church or, uh, whatever the space that you are that you believe and pray for someone else. Uh, running for me, it's an offering for the people that can move. Um, like three weeks ago I just run Toronto in a prayer run. And um, and I read it on my leg is was the first time I actually, um, let people know the reason that I was running. That was a prayer room for peace. And it was heavy in certain parts, let me tell you. 'cause um, I was thinking of the people that didn't wake up the morning, um, the mothers, the kids or whoever lose someone the, the morning. And I was there being able to run, sharing a space with thousands of people in a different city because I'm from Mexico, so I'm an immigrant and I've been living in the states for the, for the past 26 years. Um, so that's why running is ceremonial. Running is prayer, running is connectedness to ourselves and also to the land. Because in the land that we stay, sometimes there's people that's been given their life for us. Like when I was in Toronto,

Speaker 4 (28:17):

I don't know these flashbacks were coming like especially 'cause for what is happening in the other side of the world. But also the people that were in this, the land that I was running, like all these flashbacks were coming and I say, oh my gosh, what a privilege because these people give their life so I can be able to run in this land and this connectedness. So that's why it's so important for us to run in prayer because, um, in the prayers that I've been doing, it's uh, for missing indigenous women, the land back, um, so many reasons like for the water, for the earth, um, it's more the offering that I can give. Um, just putting that little grain of sand in the universe because we, as you say, we're ripples or effect. So other people can learn how to connect with themselves and they can do it, but also it is to be full on yourself so you can give that, because otherwise what are you giving?

Speaker 6 (29:31):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:32):

So, um, connecting with the land, connecting with the universe. And one of my sisters, uh, indigenous sisters, she shared with me like, I'm grateful that they create, that your ancestors carry you through the whole 26.2 miles <laugh>. That the 0.2 are the fathers

Noor (29:53):

<laugh>,

Speaker 4 (29:53):

Forget about the 26. It's always those 0.2, um, last, uh, steps so that I was able to move my body because people, like people that are in drugs, they can do that. But if I can get offers like a mile just for the people that are in this world, in this hell in this minor state, that they can move from that space. That's, um, a gratitude from my heart. And if it is for someone that has missed their daughter or their mother, because whatever was happening, the indigenous communities, but not only in the indigenous communities, it's also like people that they can live their truth or who, who they feel identify that for me, it's a gratitude that I can able to move for those that they, that can move. Yeah.

Noor (30:54):

Thank you so much for sharing that. There's, um, how many of you are familiar with the book Braiding Sweetgrass? Handful of you? Yeah. Okay. So Robin Wall Kimer, she is, um, a beautiful indigenous author and botanist and uh, I listened to the audio book 'cause it's just so stunning. But one of the things that she says about ceremony is that we engage in ceremony to remember what we remember. And I think a lot about like this concept of remembering and how like everything that, all of the answers that we're looking for, everything that, like we're seeking external validation, seeking external guidance, like all of those, all of it exists inside of you if you are willing to like ground and listen and remember what you remember. And I think running as a ceremony is such a powerful act because it requires you to be mindful of your actual like, mind, body, soul.

Noor (31:54):

Like you have to be, otherwise you'll get injured or otherwise you'll get injured. Really? That's all I'm scared of. <laugh> I don't run, but I'm very like, I admire all of the people who are, and it's, it's been so inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. Because I think that like, I, I think people have different ways of prayer and different ways of ceremony, but like, it's all about really, I feel like for me, getting back into our bodies and being here now, like, you know, so many of us are so glued to our screens. My screen time is up by like a gazillion percent right now and it's, it, I don't know, it's like, uh, sometimes you just have to like pull yourself out of it and remember like, what's right here. And I would love to know s like what does it mean for you to be in your body?

Speaker 5 (32:40):

Um, to be in my body means, yeah, just to, to to be me, like to be valued and seen and acknowledged, uh, as the person that I am and not needing to fit in someone else's standard or in fit in into the guidelines that we were brought up with. But to really just know that I can just be me and that that's okay. And I think that's, um, like you mentioned earlier, like, hey, um, like we can't change the world and you can't demand the world to change. I, I feel as a non-binary person, I feel a bit different about that because, oh, I'm not gonna talk to you if you don't respect my pronouns. Like, and like that of course is still me cha like choosing to, um, to change myself and to try to let that change be seen by others so that they can change themselves as well. Um, but I think it's as a, as like we non-binary, people need to also stick up and like say like, Hey, you know, like we are here and like, you need to change because otherwise you're not gonna be inclusive towards everyone and you're gonna, so I like, yeah. I

Noor (34:06):

I I still think that you're like leading in that though. Like you're saying you're setting your boundaries for like how you engage with the world.

Speaker 5 (34:13):

Yeah,

Noor (34:14):

Yeah. I think it's powerful.

Speaker 5 (34:15):

Yeah. Yeah. I I just partly won the, a lawsuit against the Dutch state, uh, about the topic. No way. Yeah.

Noor (34:23):

Tell me more. <laugh>

Speaker 5 (34:24):

<laugh>. So I wanna change my legal documents and my legal name. Um, and we don't have the X option in the Netherlands, uh, yet in a way that is, uh, achievable for everyone. Uh, but also if you do have the X, um, you can't get married, you can't, um, get children because you, that those are things that are in the law designed for men or women. Um, and I wanted to change my name and I wanted to change my passport because that is the option that you can do, but then the rest isn't arranged. So I took a lawyer and I went to court to the Dutch state and I just said like, well, you know, like, I think that's a bit, um, in conflict with the laws that we do have, which say that we um, that non-binary people are seen and acknowledged. So likewise isn't the law book then, according to that. So yeah.

Noor (35:24):

Congrats. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (35:25):

<laugh>,

Noor (35:26):

You sued the state? Yes. Okay. I wanna open it up to the community in the room right now. And ju is that Wiam from, did you come from Canada?

Speaker 4 (35:38):

Yes. I,

Noor (35:40):

Oh my gosh, it's so great to see you. Um, so I wanted, uh, because San brought it up about like this whole idea of like changing the world and changing yourself to change the world. I wanna know if any of you have feelings about that? Like what, how are you redefining for yourself what it means to embody? I should, I should clarify. Okay. A question I'm asking myself a lot lately is how do I personally embody the world that I want to live in? How do I like work on myself so much and so constant that everything that I like, for example, if I'm seeing so much division in the world, but I wanna see unity, then like how do I look into my own heart and see the cracks of division and see the cracks of judgment and see the cracks of hatred and be like, need to work on that, need to work on that need to work on that. Because like that feels like the only option to me at this point. So I'd love to know if any of you have any questions that you've been asking yourselves or like ways that you've been thinking about like, showing up differently in the world. Yeah. Gabby, kick us off please. And then somebody raise your hand.

Speaker 4 (36:46):

<laugh>. So in our traditions, uh, we say that we we're like the hands, um, the fingers on our hands we're different, but if we come together, we're powerful. So that's why this, um, we always do this HandsOn that doesn't matter the race, it doesn't matter who you are as long as you become a human and you can connect with human to human and you know that love is the only one, the only medicine that can save us, we are together. It doesn't matter what race you are, it doesn't matter what political party you are, as long as you choose human. And as long as you choose love, that's what matters. So that's why we always do this.

Noor (37:41):

Thank you Gabby.

Noor (37:46):

Hi there. Nu here from at your service. At your service is a storytelling company. We tell stories as a form of service. And the way I think about it is story first, medium, second, meaning we don't think, Hey, I really wanna produce a podcast. What should it be about? No, we think of it as we have a story we want to tell what is the best medium, the best way to tell it. Maybe it is a podcast, maybe it's a documentary series, a virtual talk, a speaker series, a dinner party, maybe it's a book club. The list goes on and on. We also love being of service to companies and brands and nonprofits to help them tell the best story possible so that they can serve their audience and their communities. So if you wanna check out more of our work, you can do so@a.media. You can also find the transcripts for all our podcast episodes right there. And if you're enjoying this podcast right now, it would mean so much to me if you could leave a review and give us some feedback. Let us know if you like this style of podcast or if you're looking for something else. And of course, if you have any stories you'd like to pitch for us, you can do that through our website as well as always at your service.

Noor (39:08):

Dale, can we pass, um, Derek's mic Dale here. Dale Wright. Dale, yeah. First, uh, ISeeYou Care package maker of the night. He kicked us off. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Speaker 7 (39:20):

Um, you know, so when you mentioned even just struggles and things that you, you battle with, um, so just a little context. Um, former NFL athlete, I've had every athletic ability in the world, um, but movement and a nu the number one reason I came to this panel is, uh, my sister has physical and intellectual disabilities and at five years old she had the flu and woke up the next day and could never walk again. Whoa. Um, you know, even thank you for sharing your story. Uh, my dad suffered with heroin addictions for an extremely long time. Um, but I think like when we talk about.

TIMER RESTARTS HERE

Speaker 12 (00:00):

About how to battle some of these struggles. And this is what the health and wellness industry has done for me. I was always raised to be a servant leader. Um, and that might be lonely. That might not be the easiest thing

Noor (00:12):

To do. Can you define that for us?

Speaker 12 (00:14):

Um, I think of what can I do for others and I don't need nor want anything in return, or what resources do I have that are a privilege to have that can help other people? Um, and I think when you take that perspective and when you talk about inclusivity and the movement, um, and just the community, uh, it's, it's something that's extremely powerful. Um, and I would say just going off that, 'cause it just touched me, um, if you are struggling with something, like you don't have to take that weight and carry that by yourself. Like, as human beings, we are meant to share that, you know, and that's why everyone's here today. So, um, I think just overall the smallest thing, uh, can be so powerful. And, uh, I mean, just like today we kicked it off serving others. So

Noor (01:08):

Thank you so much Dale. Anybody else have any perspective they wanna share on that? Yeah. Scissors.

Speaker 13 (01:22):

Uh, good evening. Uh, first off, just wanna give a shout to everyone on the panel for coming here and sharing your story. Uh, shout out to Derek for wearing the Sean John Velo suit. <laugh>, I am sure you rocked it. Gabby, if you were back here like I am listening, uh, nothing but sniffles and empathy, uh, for your story. And Sean, thank you again for sharing your story with us and living your truth. And that's, that's the, the hardest part. The hardest part is before I can connect with any and everybody else, I have to figure what is it that I am searching for. Uh, and to do that I actually go for a run injury free

Noor (02:08):

<laugh>.

Speaker 13 (02:10):

Um, and so to go for a run to allow me to clear my head so that I can better connect. So whether that is through community, whether that is figuring out my tribe, but then it's going back to what Sean is saying and making sure that you're constantly living your truth. And that takes a lot of courage. So I think it's connecting it's courage and community.

Noor (02:37):

Thank you so much. Can we get your name again?

Speaker 13 (02:39):

Uh, Mor. Elena.

Noor (02:41):

Maria. Elena. That's right. Thank you. Mor Elna. Thank you. Anybody else? Or we'll get back to Yes. Amazing. Love it. Well,

Speaker 14 (02:50):

Thank you Sean. I'm with you. I don't like running. I like pushing things. Things are heavy. I like pushing them. That's just me. Um, but

Noor (02:57):

Let's get your name, TAIK

Speaker 14 (02:59):

Norman. Uh,

Noor (03:00):

Tik. Nice to meet you. But,

Speaker 14 (03:01):

Uh, just sitting back here listening, I just think about things that boss lady always constantly says about equity. And I think about the conversation and my thought every day is, how do I change the conversation about movement or just anything in life? And each day I want to put a positive thing in changing that conversation around movement or anything in life. So how can that change the conversation in a positive way? That's just how I approach it each day.

Noor (03:27):

Well, thank you so much. I wanna know more though, like, how do you approach that? Like, what are you asking people or how are you engaging in the conver Are you starting the conversation?

Speaker 14 (03:34):

So each day I'm just trying to get to know one thing new or try to share one thing that I've learned with each person that I come across. And it's, if it's around movement or fitness or health and wellness, something that positive that helped me and gain something that positive help a way I can share with the next person.

Noor (03:49):

That's so amazing. And what is it for today?

Speaker 14 (03:52):

Today is just saying hello and giving out hugs. That's what I learned today. <laugh>,

Noor (03:57):

I loved hugging you earlier. Thank you so much. It's so great to hear from you. Anybody else? We love hearing from you so much. Let's get the mic back. So the intention of this conversation is about democratizing movement, but like, what does that, what does that mean to you, Derek?

Speaker 10 (04:27):

Hmm.

Speaker 11 (04:29):

Well, democracy is like, government,

Noor (04:32):

Like making movement accessible, like breaking barriers to movement. Oh. Like, so that everybody, like, so that we can define a, define it differently for everyone.

Speaker 11 (04:40):

So <laugh> I mean, my experience with it, you know, and this really opened my eyes to things, is, um, when I started to run the people who were on my team, you know, there was people who were like me, you know, homeless, uh, substance abuse issues in and outta jail. And then there was also people who were like scientists and lawyers and things like that. And if you're looking at it from the outside at some, you know, it's like you, a couple different classes of people, you know? Yeah. Not everybody's the same, but when we put that uniform on in the morning and we all circled up and stretched, you couldn't tell who was who. Yeah. And, uh, it just, uh, that the playing field became like level. Yep. And, uh, I know that's, that's what that means to me, I would imagine in my experience.

Noor (05:34):

No, it's beautiful. Yeah. That's amazing. Um, thank you for sharing that. I love that that neutrality of like, it reminds me of I'm Muslim. So when there's like a, when people engage in like the pilgrimage to Mecca, everybody has to like, wear the exact same thing with the intention of like, not knowing what someone's social class is, or not knowing what someone's background. It's like everybody in this moment is the same and that's what matters is like human to human. Um, and as a human to human, I'm actually quite terrified of running. Like, I like it actually. How many people run in this room? Oh my god, guys. Oh my God. Okay. So, um, asking for a friend,

Speaker 12 (06:13):

<laugh>,

Noor (06:14):

What do we do if we're terrified to run? And I would say my reasons for fear, I mean, my friend, I mean, my friend's reasons for being afraid about running is like, injury is like that sharp pain in your chest and that breathing, it's like my knees. I don't know. But I wanna hear from somebody who like has gotten over that fear or who got over that fear and is now a regular runner for us. Non-runners.

Speaker 12 (06:40):

I,

Noor (06:55):

You just sound like you were never afraid at first, though. Like, that's the thing. Yeah. Let's get Derek's mic over there. You just sound like you didn't have a fear to get over it. I'm sitting here, I'm like, actually, you know.

Speaker 13 (07:07):

No, I, I think it's literally one of the things that we do is for those that have that fear or those that are differently able Yeah. We start with walking and it's one foot in front of the other. But again, it's harder growing up in New York, uh, you know, we move at such a fast pace, walking is our running. Right. So, wow. But I, I, I think it's just one foot after another. And then find a friend. You can walk and talk. You don't have to use same both. Or Allison, Felix, it, <laugh>, just, you just find your pace.

Noor (07:39):

Thank you. Thank you so much. I would love to know from you, Gabby, like, because running you, you engage with it in such a sacred way. And you, you said you started running 10 years ago. Yes. So like, what, what was the thing, the switch in your brain that was just like, oh, this is something I'm gonna do with my body now.

Speaker 13 (07:59):

<laugh>?

Speaker 14 (07:59):

Well, first of all, I run across the border 26 years ago. <laugh>.

Speaker 13 (08:12):

Okay.

Noor (08:13):

No small feat. So tell us that story when I said, tell me about a run that changed your life. I'm pretty sure that was the answer. We

Speaker 13 (08:20):

Were all looking for <laugh>.

Noor (08:22):

Um, so wait, can you tell us about that

Speaker 13 (08:24):

<laugh>?

Speaker 14 (08:26):

What, but you know, as an immigrant

Speaker 13 (08:29):

<laugh>

Speaker 14 (08:30):

That you had to that. Well, in that moment I was so ignorant. I didn't know that I had to get a visa to get to the States. And my, my family lied to me. They say, oh, you know, just come to the, to Tijuana and I have my six months baby.

Noor (08:47):

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 14 (08:48):

Yeah. So I, I brought, I came with her to Tijuana. I said, don't worry, you're gonna get cross. And they sent this lady that I didn't know, and she's like, oh, Miha, don't worry. Just give it to her. Your daughter's gonna be here, but you need to go across the border. And I said, what? How? Like, don't surprise me with my daughter. Uh, whoa. So now let's say that my daughter has to, to heal her abandonment

Noor (09:13):

<laugh>. Uh, that's where it starts. It's like a dark laugh, guys, <laugh>, we all have a little bit of abandonment issues at some point. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 14 (09:21):

That, that's where

Noor (09:22):

Her start. Yeah. That's where <laugh> laugh about

Speaker 14 (09:25):

That she didn't see her mom for two weeks.

Noor (09:26):

Wow. Yeah. Two

Speaker 14 (09:28):

Weeks.

Noor (09:28):

Two weeks. How did you, like, what, how did you do that? How did you know?

Speaker 14 (09:32):

Well, the person that I went to, because this is another story. Oh my gosh. <laugh>, because the person that my mom sent to for me to Tijuana, uh, he said, oh yes, I know how to cross people. But he didn't have papers either.

Noor (09:45):

<laugh>, <laugh> we're allowed to laugh. She's laughing at <laugh>.

Speaker 14 (09:51):

Yeah, you're allowed to laugh because I mean, now it's laughable. But in the moment I was like, what? I was so confused. So then he said we had to go through this border. Have you seen the, uh, Mexican border? So we had to jump the fence. Whoa. Once. And then we had to run through the, to the mountains. So in order for the,

Noor (10:14):

You were running, running, running, running. Wow. Do you even, do you know how long you were running for? I don't

Speaker 14 (10:20):

Know. Uh, the first time I remember, uh, it was raining so hard that we run, I don't know how many miles. And then we found out ourselves like running around because it was run, it was raining, so it was muddy. So we just ended up in the end <laugh>? Yes. At the end of the mountain. Whoa. Full of muddy. So I recall that I, I was in San Diego, that's what I was told. So the, the patrols find found us, but I was hiding so good that they found the other guy. And the other guy was telling me, <laugh> like, Davi, you need to come out. And I said, I don't wanna get out. But also in my mind, I was like, how am gonna get to my family? I don't know,

Noor (11:05):

Know what? You were 19, right? Yes. 19 years old. Yes. Wow.

Speaker 14 (11:09):

So I had to come out and they take us back to, to Mexico, and he's like, don't worry, we're gonna try again. And even, and even the police tell me, oh, don't worry, in three hours you can try again.

Noor (11:23):

<laugh>. Oh my God. So you ran again.

Speaker 14 (11:28):

So yeah, it took us like another, so it took me three times she tries to get to the states. Whoa. So the second time, uh, we gathered with another group and we walk in the middle of, uh, the mountains. There was these helicopters looking for immigrants. So I just sit down and start laughing and say, oh my gosh, tag

Noor (11:48):

<laugh>,

Speaker 14 (11:49):

You're tag. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 14 (11:51):

So that was the second time. The third time, that's when I crossed the border. But that time, um, we were gathered with another person that was bringing four people. I was the only women in the, in the group. We had to walk the whole night and we had to hide one day through the day in bushes. We couldn't even, uh, whisper. We had to be quiet. So the second night, we had to wait without food, without, uh, water. Um, the second night we had to wait and they say, no, we won't be able to cross tonight, because they said that it was hot. That means there was a lot of patrols around. Um, so I had to wait for another day. Whoa. And that night we had to, from where we hiding, I just remember that the guy says, you have five seconds to get across to this bridge. That was disgusting water passing. And I don't wanna even sat share anymore. <laugh>. Whoa. Uh, I am jump in a truck because that's when the police was, um, doing this change. So we finally made it to, to that, um, to the truck. And I get to San Diego. And from there, uh, they took me to, um, la until LA my family was able to pay for my rescue, let's say. Wow. So I was able to be released. And this is the circle that I, that I close up is, um,

Speaker 14 (13:24):

Four years ago, um, I took the decision to go, uh, with this organization in San Diego that it's called the Border Angeles. They drop water in the desert. And let's say that I took water to the same mountain that I crossed 26 years ago. It is been healing for me. But the first time, because it's, we have to leave a message in the water. Write something that you feel in your heart. So we made, like the packages that you did, we, we leave food. We had to carry two gallons of water for almost seven miles up to the mountains, or seven miles. And they have different spots. So when the people that cross the border, they can find this food. Wow. And just realizing that they actually, the people actually use those resources. It was fulfill fulfillment for myself and also like healing. Healing. That part you

Noor (14:30):

Passed it on? Yes. Wow.

Speaker 14 (14:33):

Yes.

Noor (14:33):

So an angel passing it on to another angel.

Speaker 14 (14:36):

Oh, thank you.

Noor (14:39):

Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I would love to ask too, because one of the things that you said to me when we talked before this was that you want people to know that, you know, when people think of indigenous people, they think that they are people who used to be on the land. But your, your mission is for people to know, no, indigenous people are still here. Like, we're seeing indigenous people constantly fight land back. Even what we're seeing happening in Palestine. So as an indigenous woman, like making that journey to come here, if you are comfortable sharing, like what did making that journey mean to you? And what does it like, and how do you reflect on that now?

Speaker 14 (15:20):

Well, um, back, back then, I have, I was a single mother. I'm still a single mother, but with more kids. <laugh>.

Speaker 10 (15:29):

<laugh>.

Speaker 14 (15:34):

Sorry.

Speaker 10 (15:35):

<laugh>.

Speaker 14 (15:39):

Well, uh, so by then I was 19 years old. Um, and they always talk, you know, back in our countries, they always say, oh, the American dream. Yeah. They always talk about the American dream. Um, and I say, well, when I, when I have my daughter, I say, well, I'm 19 years old, what am gonna do? Um, so they say, oh, the American dream. And I say, why I don't pursue the American dream. I wanna give my daughter a better life, a better education.

Noor (16:13):

You thought that at 19?

Speaker 14 (16:15):

At 19. And I said, well, the only place that I hear that it's good to find, um, those resources in this space was in the States. So I decided when I was pregnant to come to the States, uh, again without knowing that I need a visa. Um, so I had to work so hard when I came to the States, I, when I get here, 'cause I didn't have the proper, uh, papers. And community sometimes doesn't support you. So it all depends. So I remember the place where I get, um, these people told me, oh, don't get out of the house because immigration is gonna come for you. But because I'm a rebel, I'll say, oh no, I need to leave. I need to work. So, uh, the best that I do, I start cooking different plates and I start pushing. So I was one of the vendors, the street vendors.

Speaker 14 (17:20):

I don't know if you've ever been in la Have you seen industry vendors? So I was one of them. And that's why I fight for them too. Um, so I was pushing my car with different plates of different, uh, types of food and pulling my stroller with my six months baby. Wow. Um, that, that was, uh, a hard time, but I made it and let, and I can say that I had the privilege to be in this panel. I had the privilege to run. And I have the privilege to say that yes, I'm living the American dream, not only me, but also my kids have a different, uh, different ways of living. Way, way different than I had.

Speaker 10 (18:12):

Thank you.

Noor (18:16):

I'd love to open it up to if anybody has any questions for any of the panelists, and then we can kind of do some community mingling. We can wrap Any questions, any thoughts, any confessions? Amazing. Yeah. I'll make

Speaker 11 (18:34):

Up a question.

Noor (18:35):

You wanna make one up? I'm gonna make one up. Do you wait?

Speaker 11 (18:40):

Um, yeah. My name's Izzy. I'm, uh, uh, with Connor here. We're from Portland, Oregon and we're with, uh, non-profits supported by, uh, on called, uh, go the distance. We take people in drug and alcohol treatment centers running, and we do exactly what happened to you. So when you're sharing your story, I can be right there with you because we also do that. We go up, we give them hugs, thanks to Lauren and the staff. You know, we, we provide them the shoes and we do the incentive, you know, because a lot of these guys, they don't wanna run, you know, but they want the shoes. And so it gets them out of the treatment center and it begins the journey to create healthier, um, choices. Right? Hundred percent. And then, and then what we do is we encourage movement. Not just, it's not just, uh, running like very fast or anything, but it's just about getting started.

Speaker 11 (19:35):

It's about making a decision. Right. And I think all of us have made a decision Right. To better our lives, you know? Um, and I, I get such strength from hearing all, uh, four of you, all of us. And I know there's many here in the audience too, because, um, seven years ago, you know, I was injecting crystal meth into my body and you know, I was where you were. And now I'm sitting here with these clothes on these new shoes and I'm, I'm having breakfast with the people here on the panel and you know, and I have people like this amazing, um, on supporting us. How the did this happen? You know? It's just so, it just blows, excuse my language. It just blows my mind. And I, I never under, I think I think that some of it has to do with finding your authentic self.

Speaker 11 (20:30):

And in order to be successful, but you're doing, you have to be your authentic self. 'cause you cannot a bullshitter. Yeah. You cannot do it. And if, and for me, I'm gay and it took me so long to, I'm even, even right now, that was hard to say, you know? Uh, it's obvious to everybody else, <laugh>, but to me it's very difficult. Right. I'm brown, I'm Mexican, I don't speak Spanish, I'm gay. It's been very hard. I'm a drug addict in recovery, you know. And so finding my authentic self and being here with you all has opened my mind. I was a waiter all my life. And now that I am embarking and going onto this journey with all of you and taking your strength and hearing your stories, I think sharing the stories like you did helps people like us. Right. Get to where you are. 'cause you guys are really amazing and I think we're all amazing and I'm grateful to be here. I don't know, what's your name? There wasn't really a question in there, <laugh>, but Perfect. I just like holding this mic. <laugh>

Noor (21:35):

<laugh>, thank you for sharing. I'll

Speaker 11 (21:39):

Give it back now. Thank you.

Noor (21:42):

That was beautiful. Anyone else? Yeah. Let, let's pass please. Police. No, no, no. We need, we need, you gotta have a mic. We

Speaker 11 (21:51):

Need it for the podcast.

Noor (21:55):

Give us your name too, please. Cool.

Speaker 12 (21:58):

Oh, yo, what's up? I'm Adam from the on team here. Uh, this question goes to all three y'all. Uh, what is your North Star? So maybe in the short term it's making a gym for non-binary people, but in, you know, 10, 20 years. What's the, is there something that's driving each one of you guys in terms of big goals?

Noor (22:16):

Thank you, Adam, for giving us our closing question of the night. What a collaborative event. I feel like every single person here. Okay. Sen, what is your North star?

Speaker 13 (22:30):

Ooh. Um, well, I want to provide, uh, safe spaces for the community throughout the Netherlands. So not only just Amsterdam, because like, yeah, Amsterdam is already a safer space. Um, so definitely wanna do that. And, uh, I want to do more events over a nonprofit as well. So I also wanna do more events with, um, minorities within the minority of being. Um, so we started doing, um, events with refugees, um, uh, where we provide them like a safe space to work out. Um, and I just wanna, I wanna e explore that world of what we can do and, uh, how we can Yeah. Help even more people, because sports is fun. Like, it's, yeah, <laugh>, stay very quiet for

Noor (23:33):

<laugh>. We're like, do we all agree with that? <laugh>?

Speaker 13 (23:39):

No. Sports is fun. You know, like, and, and, and you want people to enjoy that and not, not in ways to like achieve a certain goal. So we say we celebrate each body and you don't come to our gym to lose weight or to get a six pack or, and if that's truly what you want, then of course we'll help. But, and we'll support. But like, no, we just want you to be happy and to enjoy and to have a great time. So like, I think that's, so it's basically what we do, but then just on a larger scale and with way more people and four more people.

Noor (24:17):

Thank you. Thank you, Sam.

Speaker 14 (24:21):

Before I answer the last question I wanna share with Nor <laugh>, uh, that because you're afraid of running, do it. Dare yourself to do it. <laugh>. That's how you're gonna know what it's out in the other side or your fear. Do it.

Noor (24:44):

Okay. I'm I'm not gonna cry <laugh>, it's just running.

Speaker 14 (24:47):

No, that you can cry. I mean, I cry so, so many times when I'm running, especially

Noor (24:54):

I'm guys,

Speaker 14 (24:56):

So yes, do it. Thank you. Um, how I see myself is, um, as long as I can move my body, it doesn't matter. The crazy girls running over there. Like, I, like, I'm 45 years old and I'm so proud of my age because I've been living beautifully and now I'm passing on to gen my other generation, like my son is running track and he, um, and we have a date. So Wednesdays we go to our running group community in Boyle Heights, bridge Runners. Uh, and he's, and that's our date, mom and daughter day. So we run together and we've been running and I was trying to get him for the 5K new year so he can run and I, and he will be proud. But, um, but the, uh, the race is sold out so I can get him <laugh>.

Noor (25:51):

That was like, if anybody here can get a plugin, <laugh>, that was

Speaker 14 (25:55):

No, no, no, no. Um, but I'm happy because we're passing this through generations. Like now my son sees me and ask me questions like, mom, how, how can I, how can I do this? Um, I was asked two weeks ago to mentor two, two people that are gonna run their first marathon in March. That's gonna be their LA marathon. So I'm happy and glad and honored to share what I learned all these years in the running community also, I've been give giving advices to, to SRLA students, uh, and body mechanics. Like how can you run to run to pro to prevent, um, injuries, uh, uh, how to look for shoes for running. Like what is the proper shoes for you? It depends on how your gate and everything. So I've, as long as I can move, I will be running and praying and praying and one day I can do it. I'll be there supporting everyone that, that will moving their body.

Noor (27:02):

Thank you. Gabby. Derek, north Star.

Speaker 11 (27:07):

This is a deep question. Uh, I mean, besides like, wanting to live in a house and like being very good at my craft and all that stuff as a human being. Uh, so I was incarcerated this one time, right? Well, of many times this one time of many times. And, uh, there was this guy I did not get along with at all. His name was Hassan, right? And, uh, he said to me like, I was, I was leaving in a couple days. I was on short time. He was like, he was like, I need to speak with you. And I was like, oh, I, I thought we were gonna fight. And, uh, <laugh>, he was just like, uh, he, because I had been reading and writing during that particular bid, but he was like, uh, Mr. Drescher, you're not the same, uh, man that walked in here.

Speaker 11 (27:54):

You know, uh, you've changed. And I'll never forget any. And I looked at him, he just, and he goes, you changed, do you know that? And I, and then he goes, uh, I sincerely hope so. And, uh, he, I started to walk away from him and he goes, don't worry, you're gonna find your people well. And, uh, if I can at least get that message out to people who are going through something similar to what I've went through, even if they hate me, you know, if they could just hear what I gotta say and then maybe never speak to me again. If they could find their people too as a human, that would be my goal, I guess. But yeah, that's it. That's

Noor (28:32):

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you all so much. Thank you. Yeah, go for it. Yeah,

Speaker 13 (28:40):

One moment, please. Send. Yeah. So within like the world today, like transgender people are having a really difficult time, uh, especially also within sports. Um, and I'm not gonna tell you what to do or whatever, but I am want to ask you if you can like, take a moment this week doesn't need to be today, but this week to look up who is fighting for the trans community and what you can do to support them. Um, because it's, it's, it's a difficult battle and it's, it's the trans community is all over the world. So that, that's it.

Noor (29:23):

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Every single one of you for showing up for yourselves for this community. Thank you Adam for that final question. Um, it's been so beautiful being here. I think we have like, uh, some time if people wanna mingle and make a friend. 'cause this is like a really, really solid group of people, guys. Like, I know a lot of people here and they're all amazing. So thank you all so much. I'm n Judy at your service.

(Transcript) 37. Sarah Bahbah

37. Sarah Bahbah on

INTRO:

3,2,1..

We are back at our favorite hotel rooftop at citizenM on Bowery in New York City. I'm your host, Noor Tagouri, and welcome to the season two finale of Podcast Noor. It has been such a delight, asking questions and sharing stories with you all, and I’m so grateful for you sticking around. 

So for the season finale, I would like to take you into the dreamy world of one of our generation's most prolific artists. Sarah Bahbah is a Palestinian-Jordanian artist, and Director born and raised in Australia now living in Los Angeles. Sarah‘s photographs are the stuff dreams are made of: color, luxury, romance, heartache, endless curated food spreads and almost always, paired with a perfectly curated subtitle. Her photograph series often feel like films, and when she's in director mode sometimes they actually do become dreamy films.

When I first came across Sarah‘s work, I was mesmerized and had really big feelings. So when I learned that Sarah grew up in a culturally conservative Arab household, I knew the experiences that led her to make such provocative and bold art, or probably also really incredible stories. Sarah‘s work makes her viewers feel all the feelings because she feels all the feelings and photography, film and writing are mediums she uses to process everything. Sarah also comes from the ad world. She founded her creative agency Possy in 2016 and has worked with brands like Gucci, Conde Nast, Capital Records, Sony Music and GQ.

So with her expertise and keen eye, it is no wonder she’s garnered an Instagram audience of 1 million plus. My favorite series of hers is titled "3ieb!" which infamously is the Arabic word for "shame." This is also the first series thought of herself is finally in front of the camera. It is the story of her relationship with her body, shame, sexuality, culture, relationships, identity, and so much more. It is so beautiful. 

Earlier this year, she self published her first book. It is a massive luxury, fine art book, titled "Dear Love" featuring a decade of her work, as well as raw and vulnerable life stories. She opens up Intimately about her experience with childhood sexual abuse, and even interviews her father about his experience of being forced to leave his homeland of Palestine, and never really feeling at home anywhere else.

And of course as someone who relates to the experience of growing up in an Arab household, I really dig into asking about Sarah‘s relationship with her parents and how they feel about her work, and Sarah so graciously shares very openly. 

Honestly, this is such a loving final episode of the season and we don’t ever actually talk about it directly but this is also the first on-camera interview that I’ve ever done without my hair covered, so I just wanted to give an extra thank you to Sarah for holding that space because I honestly couldn’t imagine having this specific conversation in this way with anyone else. And in Sarah Bahbah style I’m even wearing a pink sweater that reads "emotional support sweater" so I’m feeling very comforted.

In this storytelling session we discuss: unlearning shame through art, going from numbing to feeling, reclaiming our cultures, the tricky relationship with parents not being supportive, peeling back the layers of love, and so much more. Sarah does not hold back and I really think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation. 

Welcome to the season two finale of Podcast Noor. 

Noor Tagouri (00:00:05):

Sarah, why are we laughing?

Sarah Bahbah (00:00:07):

I don't know. It's just nice to see you finally. I know.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:11):

So you're just talking about how I feel like this conversation is so overdue and also feels like really amazing timing and just divine timing because you're, not only are you going through such a incredible transformation to witness in that you have compiled so beautifully the last, it's over a decade of work.

Sarah Bahbah (00:00:36):

Yeah, it's a decade.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:37):

A decade, which is pretty remarkable, I think that I've been reflecting on the last decade of my life, and it's like the number 10 feels so tiny. But in terms of years and in this age period of your twenties and thirties, it's so transformational. I feel like I change every day. And so looking back at it and just honoring the last decade of your life and in the last decade, decade of your work, how do you feel being able to hug it and look at it in a book?

Sarah Bahbah (00:01:08):

It feels so therapeutic. It feels like I have my, it's, I'm honoring my twenties because 10 years ago was I turned 20 and then I turned 30 when I decided to make the book. And I really wanted to celebrate the journey that I've been on. I feel like coming from very intense childhood of filled with trauma and grief and loss and pain was, I feel like I had to mature really quickly to understand and survive my circumstances. And so I just wanted to honor that time period of my life in my twenties because I feel like it was momentous. And there's so many stories within the book that needed to be shared. So yeah, it was really a true celebration of existing and surviving and making it through, because I never thought I'd make it to my thirties if I'm being honest. So yeah, it's a real celebration.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:17):

I'm so happy that you're here.

Sarah Bahbah (00:02:19):

Thank you. Me too.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:21):

How is your heart feeling today?

Sarah Bahbah (00:02:24):

Good. If you asked me this yesterday, it would've been a different answer, but I think I just needed to sleep because last night I got home from my book signing and I was just feeling so emotional and over something that happened two years ago that it just came up out of the blue. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to cry about this right now. And it's like I had just repressed little parts of it

Noor Tagouri (00:02:49):

It's so intense when stuff like that happens

Sarah Bahbah (00:02:52):

Yeah

Noor Tagouri (00:02:52):

And you're just like, Ooh, that was still in my body.

Sarah Bahbah (00:02:54):

And I was like, why is this showing up for me right now? But I, I'm just going to, I literally just was staring at my knees and I was like, all right, we're just going to feel this. And then I just started crying and I just, but it was, so what I'm trying to do more of is just honor where I'm at, even if it doesn't feel good. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:15):

Well, do you feel like you're processing it after years of maybe a couple of years ago, you wouldn't have been able to physically process it in a way where you're going to feel it all the way through?

Sarah Bahbah (00:03:24):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:03:25):

It was ready. And I feel like especially after a book signing or after, you have this massive gathering of people who have been impacted by your work as if their light is giving you support to be able to

Sarah Bahbah (00:03:35):

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I've been saying this with this book tour. It's been so incredible to see these rooms full of the people who are behind the likes on Instagram. And it's so different because if I got 300 likes on a post and that's all I got, I would be really confused and upset. But when you're in a room full of 300 people, it's so different. So different. And so I've just been sitting down with every single person and hearing how my work has impacted them. And it's, it's just like to try and absorb that has been so overwhelming and so sweet. But it's rocking me emotionally. I'm just like, ah, this is so much love. It's so wild.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:25):

But it's so incredible because 300 people as human beings is a lot, and it kind of forces you to recalibrate your relationship with numbers and social media because, especially when, for you, Instagram is a huge platform for storytelling for your work, but you're, the impact that you're making are on real human beings. So when you see people in real life, how does that allow you to recalibrate your relationship with how you use social media?

Sarah Bahbah (00:04:57):

It reminds me to not be harsh on myself if my engagement isn't high or whatever, because at the end of the day, I am such a loved and supported artist. And just because the numbers don't always reach the highs, it doesn't mean that that's taken away. And I do, especially because I feel like anytime I speak on being from Palestine or just share my opinion on anything regarding the occupation, I do feel like my numbers significantly drop, like 90% dip, even if the post before was extremely high. So

Noor Tagouri (00:05:36):

At that point, it's not even about thinking about the numbers around social media, it's actually just witnessing censorship

Sarah Bahbah (00:05:44):

And feeling the weight of my identity being silenced by a platform that I built my entire career on has been really painful for me because it's like they'll celebrate my art, but they won't celebrate my identity. And so I to, I really try and just be gentle with myself knowing that this is a long term thing to be able to discuss all of that. And as long as I can be welcomed into these rooms, that's when I can do the work. But Instagram is not on my side in that regard. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:06:21):

I mean, okay, so we were talking right before we pressed record and I stopped you. I was like, I want to double. So I had asked you if you'd ever visited Palestine and you were sharing that you hadn't, and you had actually interviewed your dad for the book. And I would love to just know, Hey, listen, we're aut of, and so we come from a very specific culture, and you do really daring work, very brave board, especially when it comes to just centering female stories and asking big questions around culture and tradition and why we do the things that we do and why we don't talk about certain things. And so I want to know how you approached interviewing your dad and just what your relationship with him has been like when it comes to how he engages with your work or what he knows about it.

Sarah Bahbah (00:07:14):

So my dad doesn't look at my work. I don't think he ever has. And he's okay with that. I'm okay with that. I would prefer it. Well, it's, he's not active on online, so he has no access to it, and he doesn't care to because he would rather just not know. All he cares about is that I'm safe and I am, I'm not disobeying him, whatever that means. And because my mom is very unsupportive of my work, she comes from a very Christian background and she uses that as a weapon to shame me constantly for the art that I create. And my dad is agnostic and doesn't really participate in religion. So he's always in the background being like, [khaleeha] let her, it's art, stop complaining, kind of thing. And so I have two conflicting sides with my parents. My mom, I unfortunately have had to sit down with her several times and be like, let's agree to disagree because we both come from two different generations, and the work that I'm doing is important, but I don't expect you to understand it because how could you don't live in the same world that I do.

(00:08:39):

I don't need you to understand it. I just need you to trust that I am doing the right thing. And that's always, it's always a battle because she is, she's just like, but sad, I want you to be in heaven with me. And he really goes in and even every single phone conversation we have, even if it's got nothing to do with my work, she'll always end it with, but are you behaving?

Noor Tagouri (00:09:06):

What does that mean?

Sarah Bahbah (00:09:06):

Are you doing God's work? Are you behaving? Are you behaving? That's literally, she says it in Arabic, but she's very, oh my gosh, I obviously, yeah, no, it's just different every time. But it's always centered around if I'm honoring God's words.

Noor Tagouri (00:09:27):

And what do you think that means to her?

Sarah Bahbah (00:09:30):

Well, for her it's fear because she really does want us to all be in heaven with her. Yeah, that's her ideology. That's her belief. She's like, I can't leave this earth unless they're coming with me. So, which is amazing and it's beautiful, but I'm just not there with her right now. I have my beliefs and yeah, it's tricky. But

Noor Tagouri (00:09:58):

When you first knew that you were going to become an artist and that this is the type of work that you wanted to take on, how did you get over that first threshold of being like, oh, this mama's not going to be okay with it?

Sarah Bahbah (00:10:12):

So my entire body of work has been an act of rebellion from my culture, but it represents so much more than that. It's also me reclaiming my body after the things that had happened to me as a child. And for the longest time, I blamed my culture for the things that happened to me. And so I was not truly embracing who I was and the people that I came from because it was built on so much shame. And so when I created” Sex and Takeout”, for instance, that was one of the more provocative series that I did and the wild ones, which is where I went to music festivals and I got really drunk, and I would photograph musicians and roll around in the dirt and take drugs for the first time and just be extremely rebellious and ev doing everything that my parents told me not to do because I didn't feel safe in my culture. So I needed to find a space where I did feel safe and where I could belong and where I could act on desire, but the differences that I'm out of and our culture just cannot accept that we behave in this way. And the western world was just pulling me in a different direction. They were like, come join us. And it was the evils and the wilderness, and I was like, yeah, that looks good. Let's go.

(00:11:51):

And so it was my way of just escaping the restrictions and the shame that was put on me and breaking free and my art became an outlet for that.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:06):

Is it also, as you were saying that I was like, huh? Is it also not just a reaction to the things that happened to you specifically in that regard? You are talking about different abuses, forms of abuse, but also a reaction to the fact that there was silence around that people wouldn't talk about it. Because I think sexual abuse happens in all cultures and communities, and it doesn't discriminate against anybody. Yeah. There is a way, and this is also a universal thing too, but there is this lack of response or accountability or just don't talk about it or blame or shame on the person that it's happened to. So I also want to just dig a little bit deeper and be like, is it just a reaction to someone being like, no, you can't do that. Or somebody being like, oh, that happened to you. No, we can't talk about it.

Sarah Bahbah (00:13:01):

It was a lot of things. I do feel like my voice was silenced as a kid. I didn't really have a voice. Anytime I did speak up, I was always told to be quiet, be submissive, be obedient. And so you leaning into my art to navigate being silenced really did help me build a voice for myself, the voice that I never had. And I was not just doing it for myself, but it was also for my inner child. And she so desperately needed to be heard, and it was really important for me to give her a voice in order for me to truly heal from the things that had happened to me. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:13:42):

So how did art find you?

Sarah Bahbah (00:13:46):

Oh, it just within me, it's always been there. It's always been an outlet. When I was a child, it was me introverting in a living room across from where all the uds were gathering, and I would just stare at the ceiling and build these playgrounds in my head that reimagined my entire world to be different and to feel different, to feel safe, and to feel colorful. I mean, no, that's colorful is not the right word because our culture is very colorful. But I was creating these playgrounds of safety in my brain, and that manifested into painting as a child and building paper mache planets and universes. And then in high school it was like fine art oil painting. And then it became photography, and now it's film. And I just feel like it's always different mediums. So it's a part of me, it's just how I process things.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:46):

That's so beautiful. And it's so clear. Your voice and your vision is so distinct, and it's so clear, and it's very beautiful how you have found yourself in so many mediums, but it's still you. So I want to take it back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier. So you have this response from your mom and from your dad, and when did you realize that? When did you make the decision that you were going to choose yourself and be like, you know what, even if you're not supportive or you're not engaging or you're not agreeing, I love you and I know that you love me and I have to do this.

Sarah Bahbah (00:15:34):

I don't think there was a specific moment. All I knew is that there was so much more to me that was so desperately dying to be heard. And if I had stayed at home in Perth in small town Perth, Australia, I would never be able to reach these voices and these experiences and these memories and my identity. It was just so swamped and covered by core beliefs that were built based on other people's opinions and of me and my family's conditioning and society's conditioning. And I just became such a shell of a human, and I really didn't feel like I was existing as my most authentic self. And I knew that there was a greater purpose for my existence, and I had to actively go and seek it. And the only way to do that was to leave and not be surrounded by my community and just completely isolate myself and build a world based on what I truly wanted to be in existent, I guess. And it was, it was challenging because leaving everything you've ever known is hard. And it's not that I resisted the people that I come from. I just resisted myself and I couldn't understand why I didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. And so I had to go and find belonging, and that was the journey that I went on, and that's when I really leaned into my art to navigate all of that. So

Noor Tagouri (00:17:15):

What did you find in your journey of belonging?

Sarah Bahbah (00:17:20):

That it's okay. So I write this in my book as well, but I believe that we are born into this world as love, and we have all these layers that are, our core beliefs become these layers and layers, and they take us away from love and who we are. And so when I went on this journey, I was actively peeling every single layer of any time summer made me feel unworthy or someone made me feel like I didn't belong or someone invaded my private space. And I was just peeling all these layers and beliefs about myself one by one by one, until I could find my way back to love. And I wanted always exist in our pure, most pure self. And if we can exist as love, then we can access the divine. We can cultivate these beautiful, loving, reciprocated relationships. But when we're still layered with all these beliefs that aren't ours, we don't really truly exist as our authentic self because we're still acting

Noor Tagouri (00:18:31):

In reaction

Sarah Bahbah (00:18:32):

To these beliefs that we've created. I call it the negative ego. Positive ego is ego is a beautiful thing because it helps us make really great decisions, but it can also be a dangerous thing if you are acting constantly on the negative beliefs in the negative parts of your ego. So what I was trying to do is just peel it all off so I can exist purely as love.

AD BREAK - REP

Noor Tagouri (00:18:59):

Okay. So two definitions in this journey. Your book is called Dear Love, and you break it into sections in your own journey of love within yourself and how life from your inside out essentially. And so how do you define love today? And just because you talked about ego, I'd love to know how you define ego too, because that is, everybody has a different definition of that as well.

Sarah Bahbah (00:19:23):

So I think ego is mind, and love is heart, and both these things are a part of the human condition. They're built into us. We have a brain and we have a heart, and they're both extremely necessary to exist. So it's not that ego is bad, and it's not that love is the only infinite divine thing. I think what it means to be love and to be aware or self-aware of your mind is to just be aligned and act in with all your decisions that you make. You always center it around love. So if your mind has the thought, the love is the one that kind of nurtures it to its most authentic place. I don't know how else to explain it. I still am in the process of trying to totally understand that myself, the full complete alignment of mind, body, soul. Yeah. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:20:22):

Well, when compiling Dear Love. What did that journey of actually putting and piecing together the last decade of your work and your own personal evolution, what did that teach you about the concept of love and in society's relationship with it?

Sarah Bahbah (00:20:42):

I think what it has taught me is that self, like self-awareness and being aware of everything you've been through is the most important work that you have to do as a human in order to go back to love. And I think with social media right now, and it's like a double edged sword because on one side it's like there is so many conversations going on around self-work and therapy talk, and it's giving kids access to resources that they never had before, especially if they can't afford therapy. And it's teaching kids how to be a better person and how to go inwards in order to heal from your shit. But then it's also on the other side of it, it's telling kids to escape from themselves and using their phone as a vice to not face their reality and not face themselves. So I think with all of that, I think most people right now aren't doing the work because they're constantly distracting themselves, whether it's alcohol, partying, drugs, internet, whatever vices that they find. Escapism is still very much present in society and in every room that we walk into, people are constantly trying to escape themselves. And I think doing the work and going inwards is the way out of that and facing yourself and facing the things that hurt and allowing them to hurt that that's the work that needs to be done. And that's how you can reach love, pure love. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:22:34):

How did you do that?

Sarah Bahbah (00:22:37):

It was a process. It was a real process. So I was in that escapism world for a really long time. I numbed myself on Xanax, Xanax and Valium for three years before I moved to LA. And then when I got here, it was chaos. I was constantly, I couldn't be alone. I couldn't sit with myself. I was going out every single night trying to find a sense of safety and community attaching to these people who told me I was safe, but would just contradict that in every way. And it was just a constant state of fighting with myself, and I knew it wasn't sustainable. I knew I wouldn't be able to continue living if I was doing this to my body and avoiding what was going on in my mind. And so by the end of my first year in LA, I decided to completely rehab.

(00:23:42):

I took myself to the desert, and I also had bulimia at the time, and it just, everything was bad. It was like I was destroying my body any way I could, and I needed to change, otherwise I wouldn't make it another year. So I promised I wasn't going to purge again. I stopped taking Valium slowly and I stopped drinking in. By 2017, I was completely sober, and I started therapy, and I just completely went in. I went in and I went from feeling nothing and being numb for most of my life, to feeling everything all at once. And it goes from apathy to, I don't even a downpour of emotions. Numb, numb, numb, and then downpour, and then back to numb and then downpour. And I didn't know how to stabilize my emotions. And that's when I really needed my art to create a space to honor what was going on, to write it all down and go from there.

Noor Tagouri (00:24:51):

Thank you for sharing.

Sarah Bahbah (00:24:52):

Of course.

Noor Tagouri (00:24:54):

Tell me what goes into a Sarah Bahbah vision when the storyline, how you see it e, just even down to the colors and the words, how do you put together a vision? And if we can start from the inside, so you're in this moment of your art being the medium in which you can face your emotions out loud in real life, and then you create something that moves millions of people. How does that come together?

Sarah Bahbah (00:25:30):

It, it does start from within. So it's me trying to process a situation where I feel like my safety has been taken away from me and someone who is extremely, extremely anxious. I've convinced myself, I'm constantly in danger. And so whenever I feel the slightest bit of instability in my relationships, it triggers a wound so deep within me that feels like complete abandonment. And so my brain is just trying to pick up the pieces of how to feel safe again. And so what that means is re-imagining all of my scenarios in which I felt safe, and then how that safety quickly disappeared. And it's just like I go back to every single moment, and I imagine them in a hundred different ways. And while I'm doing that, all these subtitles come to be, and then

Noor Tagouri (00:26:33):

I love that they're subtitles.

Sarah Bahbah (00:26:36):

 They just pour out of me. I can write a

Noor Tagouri (00:26:39):

It's harder than writing many words.

Sarah Bahbah (00:26:42):

And also my advertising background taught me to sell things in one minute. So my brain just knows how to do that. One line can depict an entire experience, and I'm really good at it because I was trained in that way. I was trained to be a one line person, because that's what advertising teaches you. And so I would come up with a hundred of these, and it would be over a series of three to four months. And once I was ready to release it, I would then plan the visuals and I would plan the shoot, and I'd find my talent and everything kind of comes together after that. And then I release it to the world. And once I release it, I know that I fully processed this feeling of instability and wow, I fully allowed myself to accept where I'm at, and so I can give it to the world and it's no longer mine.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:37):

That's so beautiful.

Sarah Bahbah (00:27:38):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:40):

Tell me about just the aesthetic itself, the colors and just the glamor and the subtitles, and I just colors the colors, the colors, the colors. How did that come to be? How did you find a way to make that part of the voice?

Sarah Bahbah (00:28:01):

So when I was younger, when I first started photography, I would shoot on film, and I realized because I was going to these festivals every single week and I wasn't getting paid to shoot them, I couldn't afford to process film anymore. So I wanted to make my photos look like film, but they were digital. And so from a really, really young age and the very, very start of my career, I was already manipulating colors in my photos to capture the essence of what it felt like to be in that moment. And I grew up in Perth, and so it's always sunny, and the sunsets are the most beautiful ones you'll ever see. And I really wanted to encapsulate that in my work and really feed on the nostalgia of being at a festival as the sun is setting and everyone's cheering and out of their minds and dancing around and just your favorite band in the background. And so color became a huge part of the work. And in terms of indulgence, I focus on that a lot in my sets because I also want to bring in my identity as an Arab. And what that means is reflect it. It's covering the table with food and celebrating self and love through community and indulgence in the meals that we have in the meals that we share. And so I always capture my protagonist surrounded by a buffet of food because that really reflects how I grew up

Noor Tagouri (00:29:41):

It's so beautiful. And that's also so the way I see it too, and I know we started this conversation and it was just kind of unpacking some of the harm that comes within culture and tradition that we don't really rethink sometimes, but you've also managed to reclaim your culture and to still maintain it as a part of who you are and your essence. So what was that process like and how do you continue to do that?

Sarah Bahbah (00:30:13):

So it was a lot of unlearning, I think growing up in Australia and having been bullied by so many white kids saying that I was a dirty Arab, and post 9/11 I was a terrorist, and whatever shit they could come up with, even in Australia, even in, oh, a hundred percent in Australia, Australians are so fucking racist. It's wild, but not all of them. But you had that experience. I had that experience, and they became a part of my core beliefs. And so I had internalized racism around my own identity, and I had to unlearn all of that. And the most beautiful takeaway from this journey that I've been on is that we do come from resilient, loud, loving, caring, chaotic people, and it is so worthy of celebration. And there is so much racism and xenophobia around us as Arabs, and it's, it's truly such a mess. It's like we are not any of those things that the media portrays us as. And I knew that, I always knew that, and I love the people that I come from, but there was a disconnect because of the things that were happening to me behind closed doors and at school. And so as a child, my beliefs became that we were wrong and we were inherently bad. And that's not true at all.

Noor Tagouri (00:31:38):

That process of unlearning is a forever journey too, because it's, again, so much of culture and how we engage in it today is in response to how people have treated us or how we've been perceived. And we were talking with a friend earlier this morning about how in, for example, my family is from Libya, and Gaddafi was in power, and there were students who were hung in the University Square for praying morning prayers. And so there are people who really leaned into religion, even my dad included, and they were holding onto it because it's the, it's almost a form of rebellion to hold onto your faith in response to somebody who's killing people for it. And then on the other side of my friend who we were talking to this morning, she's Iranian, and her parents fled or she, she up here, and they left in response to the religion becoming this politicized and used as a weapon to press people there.

(00:32:48):

And it's like everyone responds in reaction to, and it, it's so difficult because this is part of that journey of figuring out who am I really? Because so much, especially from our cultures, so much of our identity is, or so much of our life is spent trying to figure out who we actually are, because so much of who we've been has been in response. And so I think that art is such a beautiful way to unpack that and release it. And you've done such an amazing job. And when you released 3ab, which is just one of the most profound and powerful projects, the first one you ever did, featuring yourself.

Sarah Bahbah (00:33:35):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:33:37):

I mean, I would love to know now that it's been out for two years.

Sarah Bahbah (00:33:41):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:33:44):

How do you reflect on that experience? I had meaning literally shame in Arabic. And it's funny because you know, come from a Palestinian Christian background and my family is Muslim and it's, I don't know the little girl in me who grew up only around very conservative Christian White people. The first time I met a person who wasn't Muslim, I didn't even know this is

(00:34:09):

My brain.

(00:34:10):

So to even see you create this body at work, it's title and feel so familiar, and the lines feel so true, and also your mom is referring to God in a very similar way that my own family does. And so there's this similar,

Sarah Bahbah (00:34:27):

I think there is so many similarities between Islam and Christianity course, but also from the Middle East. So my mom, she's very much no different to probably your parents, literally no different.

Noor Tagouri (00:34:42):

So I, tell me about that project from the saw of today. Who compiled Dear Love?

Sarah Bahbah (00:34:54):

Yeah. So it was created during the pandemic, and it was very much created when I was in the process of peeling off the layers. And I made the series because I wanted to challenge myself to open the Pandora box of why I didn't feel like I was worthy to be in front of the camera. And is that how you felt? Yeah, I did. I felt that way. I felt it tremendously. And my friend Steven, I was on his podcast, Steven Butler, and he said to me, of all the people that I know, you are not one to doubt your abilities, but you're one to doubt the way you look. And he's like, go inwards and figure out why that is. And so, yeah, it set me on this journey. And yeah, it came down to the memories that I had repressed around my identity, and also the conditioning from having grown up in Australia and only seeing white beauty being celebrated, not seeing a single Arab on tv, even an Arab woman on till this day on TV doesn't really, in Western world doesn't exist. It's not, there isn't many of us. And that's the work that I'm doing next, but we'll get into it later. But for the longest time, I was hiding behind a veil of blue contacts, avoiding the sun, straightening my hair to contacts. Yeah, yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:36:33):

I came back from Libya

Sarah Bahbah (00:36:34):

Yeah

Noor Tagouri (00:36:35):

They gave them to me there

Sarah Bahbah (00:36:35):

Oh my goodness.

Noor Tagouri (00:36:38):

My cousin had just worn them for her wedding.

Sarah Bahbah (00:36:40):

Yeah

Noor Tagouri (00:36:41):

I remember thinking, oh, I'm going to wear blue contacts for my wedding.

Sarah Bahbah (00:36:43):

It's so funny because I haven't thought of this since, but whenever my sister went to Jordan, she would come back with different contacts. Yeah, yeah. It's it, yeah. So we're just constantly being told that we are not going to be accepted as the way we look, and we have to aite our physical appearance to cater to white beauty standards. And I was dying my hair. I was starving myself. I wasn't letting my Arab curves kick in, and everything I was doing to my body was to resist my identity. And it was because of the things that I believed about myself. And it's because I didn't feel like I could exist as myself in any space without being ostracized or othered. And so I had to unlearn all that, and that was the true core reasons why I wasn't able to put myself in front of the camera or truly celebrate my identity.

(00:37:47):

And so “AEib” was a marker of that. It was to fight against these western standards of beauty that I had succumbed to. And it was also to fight against my culture for shaming me for existing as a woman. And it, it's like, because I come from the western world, but I grew up out through and through, and this herb is the marker of the third. My friend, she says like, you've got to come into your third and hold. It means you are both arab and Western, and you've got to create. Oh, right, yeah. Wow. And so she's amazing, incredible artist. And I adore her, is her name. She's from Saudi, but she lives in LA. Anyway, shout out. But yeah, so she said that to me and I was like, okay, what does my third look like? And yeah, it looks like me honoring the people that I come from whilst also honoring my sexuality and celebrating my beauty as an other woman and creating space for that, and hopefully encouraging others to do the same without shame or guilt.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:02):

I mean, it looked like a spiritual experience.

Sarah Bahbah (00:39:03):

Experience. It was. It was a total, it was a journey. Usually I released my series right after shooting them, but there were two series that took a really long time to get to a place of being like, okay, we're doing this. The first was, I could not protect her because that was the first time I spoke about my child's sexual abuse and that needed time and nurturing. And then it was, 3ib, because I wanted to check in with my community and make sure that I wasn't going to be expelled from ever going, being allowed into the Middle East again.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:35):

And what was the response to it?

Sarah Bahbah (00:39:37):

Everyone's like, Sarah, you have to absolutely do this. This is profound. We need this. Go for it. And I was like, okay. But then there was a small percentage of extremists who would leave nasty comments. I mean, as always. Yeah, I got one the other day, it was first class horror. I was like, that's that's actually really funny. Yeah.

AD BREAK - AYS

Noor Tagouri (00:40:02):

Are there any women in your family who engaged with “3eib”?

Sarah Bahbah (00:40:06):

Yeah, all of my cousins and my siblings celebrated it. My mom might have seen it. It's still a little undecided. She did go on my Instagram at the end of 2020 somehow, and she sprung me with likes. I saw your Instagram and it was like. I dunno what she saw, but she saw something and she didn't speak to me for a month, but she's going to not tell me what she saw. She's going to just be ignorant because it's less painful for her to process that her child has gone astray from God in her eyes.

Noor Tagouri (00:40:45):

But what does that mean to her? Do you think? Specifically, is it about the body itself or is it about the things that you're saying? What do you think that that actually is?

Sarah Bahbah (00:40:57):

I think it's, it honestly is it's f she just could never understand these things. She never celebrated her human desires in that way. She played by the book in every single aspect of her life. And so for me, when she sees me in the work that I do, it's so foreign to her that it seems like I have true, and through it's, she feels like I am a danger to everything she's fought so hard against.

Noor Tagouri (00:41:31):

But I guess the reason I'm asking is also just because I'm curious how that is for her as a Christian woman compared to in the Muslim community, covering your bodies a huge part of the traditions that people engage in today. So is that similar for her?

Sarah Bahbah (00:41:54):

Yeah. My mom once would prefer I covered my body. Not, it's just different. It's different, but it's the same. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to understand. It is the same, but just have different Islam. They have different practices of covering your body. And for women, obviously it's their choice and it's really beautiful. But for my mom, she would just prefer that we, because she dresses so modestly as well, and when they pray they cover their hair. She's very, very traditional. Yeah. They wear a, I don't know what it's called, but it's like a cloth over their hair. And women aren't in, I think she's orthodox Christian, but they, it's, it's written in the Bible that women should have their hair covered in the church. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:42:50):

It's so interesting that your dad is agnostic and that your mom is Christian and that the conversation around faith and belief is, I don't know, different. Did that conversation ever come up for you, for your dad? Is it go engage in your own spiritual journey, or was there more pressure for you to be Christian?

Sarah Bahbah (00:43:13):

Oh, it's been different over the years. There isn't, because there was a point where my dad wouldn't let my mom get baptized, for instance. And all my mom wanted was to be baptized so she could take the bread and wine at church.

Noor Tagouri (00:43:28):

I thought that was something that happened when they were younger,

Sarah Bahbah (00:43:32):

Not in their, their traditions.

Noor Tagouri (00:43:39):

And what was his, why?

Sarah Bahbah (00:43:40):

It was because he didn't, the way that my pastor was not allowing my mom to do it, and it was, he was trying to protect her out of ego because he didn't like that my mom wasn't being welcomed unless she did the thing that he said she had to do. And so it was out of protection. But eventually he came around, but he's never, he'll go to Catholic churches for kids baptisms and stuff, but he doesn't practice religion, I don't think. Don't believe he prays. Can you talk to him about it? Sometimes? I haven't recently. I haven't in the past few years. But yeah, he's just to, he believes as a God, and that's just, that's kind of where he is at. Cool. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:39):

Oh, wow. This is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing all that.

Sarah Bahbah (00:44:41)

Of course.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:45):

I want to talk about your choice to self-publish 

Sarah Bahbah (00:44:50):

Okay.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:51):

And just one of the things that I really admire about you and your work is that you're often using a sliding scale so that your work can be accessible so that people can't typically afford the retail price of a fine art book can afford it, or your print or whatever. It just feels so in service to the community. And in a way, your choice to self-published a almost 500 page fine art photography book with beautiful words. Walk me through the decision and were you nervous?

Sarah Bahbah (00:45:32):

So I was planning to always publish a book. It was always in the back of my mind as I was building the body of work, and I was in New York in 2017, I was approached by these agents who pitch your books to publishers, and we were just getting really bad deals. And I was like, I think my work is worth more than this. And then are they

Noor Tagouri (00:45:58):

Bad deals that you felt like they were bad deals for you? Or generally you're just like, wait, this structure does not do

Sarah Bahbah (00:46:04):

I think the structure doesn't favor the artist, but now I'm kind of understanding being the publisher now, I'm like, oh, there is a lot of cost and it makes sense that they would do that. They would give you an advance and then pay you the royalties, which is, I think 10% or 5% low. It's low, but every deal is different. So I can't speak to that, but I just didn't, these offers that were coming through. And then I met with a really, really big publishing house, and they were saying the same thing. It's like, well, you actually have to pay for it, and then we'll do everything else. And then it was just backwards and I was like, eh, I don't like any of this. And they were also trying to dictate what the book would be. And I had such a clear vision for it that I didn't really, it didn't really make sense for me. And I wanted to, I've worked so hard to be an independent artist. I left my galleries many years ago. We won't get into that, but just

Noor Tagouri (00:47:13):

Well I think it's a big decision.

Sarah Bahbah (00:47:14):

They don't put the artist first, let's just say that. And they go behind your back.

Noor Tagouri (00:47:18):

Many agencies. We left an agency years ago when we started our own thing. That's why I feel like I can see, and I can feel and taste the freedom almost that you have.

Sarah Bahbah (00:47:28):

Yeah, that's incredibly challenging. Yeah. I mean, it's easy at all, but it's, it's definitely not easy because you have to literally work every single hour of the day to make sure that you are getting everything, every single thing done that people have teams for. But it's just in 2000 and at the end of 2017, I left all these galleries, and by 2018, I released my first limited edition print. And instead of the works being sold for thousands of dollars, I wanted to democratize my art and make it more accessible. So we did a print that was like $200. And then by the pandemic, I did this sliding scale where it's like you can pay $50 or up to 300. And honestly, the in old institutions do not support it because it goes against everything that they've worked to control artists. And I just, I want to keep pushing against the grain because I believe that it also makes me feel like I could do anything knowing that I could publish a book or sell 25,000 prints or whatever.

(00:48:40):

It's like, I did that. Yeah, you did. No one else did that. I did that, and that feels really fucking good to own. So when the book came around, I had a choice. I was like, do I want to start pitching this again and going to all these publishers, or do I want to leverage the audience that I have and knowing that they support my work and knowing that I can price it so it's still accessible. Because if I went with a publisher, they would sell this book for minimum 300. I already know that, and I would only get $10 from it. So it's bonkers. Yeah, it's bonkers. So that's what I did. I spent every single hour last year, 1216 hour days working on this book and project, managing it, making sure through and through the process was clear and green lit. I had a beautiful team of editors.

(00:49:37):

I had a graphic designer. I had legal, make sure all the talent was cleared, and it was just all the art was cleared, and it was a process. And then going back and forth with the printers on the cover and the quality of the book and the size, and how much are you going to order, how many books do you think you can sell? And not knowing what number, because obviously the more books you order, the more the lower the cost is. And I, I'm like, okay, I had to weigh out the margins, but then there's also a recession and people aren't buying things right now. So it's like, what do I do? And it was just so many questions that I had to answer myself. I didn't have a team for this. That's what it means to you are the bus. You literally have to make every single decision. And I loved it, but it destroyed me at the same time because it was so hard. It was really, really hard. And I burnt myself out a million times through.

Noor Tagouri (00:50:38):

How did you prepare?

Sarah Bahbah (00:50:40):

It was, honestly, there was moments even this year where I'm like, I need to just disappear for a month and not speak to anyone because I'm so exhausted. But I pushed through, I just, I started to be more gentle on myself. I think it was once the book finally was out, it didn't end. I had to also do customer service while I found a customer service team. And this is for, at the time, it was like 6,000 orders saying

Noor Tagouri (00:51:08):

All of these things that I never would've thought about.

Sarah Bahbah (00:51:11):

Yeah, tell about that. I was literally replying to customers every day. A hundred customers would email every single day, hundreds of customers. And I'm literally sitting behind the computer trying to respond to them while being like, okay, to my shipping team, what's like, what's the update? And then getting a fulfillment company is also another thing. And then working out what that looks like, working out what your packaging looks like. And there's so many things. Yeah, it doesn't end. It literally doesn't end. And so now I'm on book tour mode and everything is finally in place. I have amazing packaging. It's not going to damage the books. And we're shipping daily and everything's, it was the longest teething process of my life, but now everything is settled, and now I have to look at distribution and how I can actually get my book into bookstores, because unless you're with a distribution company, they don't want your book.

Noor Tagouri (00:52:07):

Wait, really?

Sarah Bahbah (00:52:08):

Yes. Barnes and Nobles literally got back to me yesterday, and they're like, we only accept self-published books if you distribute within these companies. And they gave me a long list, and I was like, okay. And so I look into distribution, distribution is 70% to the distributor, 30% to the artists, and they sell your book for half the price. So I'm like, do I even want distribution or should I just go hard on selling my book online and focusing all my energy on literally just getting people to buy the book through Instagram ads and whatever. I mean,

Noor Tagouri (00:52:45):

It's hard though too, because it's bookstores. You're getting people who've never heard of you before.

Sarah Bahbah (00:52:51):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:52:51):

I mean, you're really breaking a model though. I have a lot of questions, not once that can be answered, but just things that, it seems like you found a lot of holes in the system, and this is only your first book. I know that you're going, this is not your last.

Sarah Bahbah (00:53:06):

Maybe it will be, maybe it will. I don't know. It's 10 years of work. So

Noor Tagouri (00:53:12):

I, I feel like that route has been such a service to other artists to say, I mean, listen, it's hard work, but it's something is possible. And

Sarah Bahbah (00:53:21):

Yeah. But I will say that if I didn't have my audience, this book would not be successful. Exactly. But I also cultivated this audience over 10 years, and I have built such a strong community of supporters that I love and adore. And that's why this book tour is so important because I really want to thank them. I want to be there. I want to literally say thank you because they made it happen. Totally.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:46):

Who are they? Who is their audience? And I love seeing their faces at your events, and they're coming through and they're so emotional and feel so attached to your work.

Sarah Bahbah (00:53:56):

I think very loving, caring, very gentle people. I haven't met anyone who's just been unkind. It's just like everyone is so open. And I think the people who follow my work and support my work are on the same path of going inwards and leaning into vulnerability to truly express themselves to their partners and in their life. I think we all connect because we all want to be seen, and we all want to have a voice, especially in our relationships around love. And yeah, it's just been so beautiful to have people share their stories with me and how my art has directly helped them heal from a breakup. And that's the most common thing. Hearing your art has helped me heal from my breakup, or I literally use your art to break up with my ex, and it's just no pressure. Amazing. It's so beautiful because by me giving the chaos in my brain like a space, it helps others also do the same. And so by me doing the work, it's helping others do the work. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. I like that. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:12):

That's the radical thing, is when you actually engage with your own story and you create the space in your life for you to engage with it, there is no, this is why this idea of trying to change people is such a far If you Can't change people, you normally change yourself. You also have to trust that in changing and evolving yourself, you are also going, you're showing people how to do that for themselves, and that's the impact that you make.

Sarah Bahbah (00:55:41):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:43):

Okay. I know this is funny because it was one of the first questions I asked, and then I realized you interviewed your dad.

Sarah Bahbah (00:55:51):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:52):

Tell me

Sarah Bahbah (00:55:52):

About that. Okay. So yeah, we didn't answer that question. That's perfect. Having the

Noor Tagouri (00:55:58):

Conversations as a little, we talk about it and then we go into art and then we talk about it, we go and it feels good.

Sarah Bahbah (00:56:05):

Yeah. So I interviewed my dad for the book because I wanted to understand where he was at with the occupation in Palestine. I also wanted to understand his history more because he's never been able to openly talk about it. And we've never set intentional time to talk about it. So I had my best friend, Baha, who interviewed them at the house because she was also one of the editors on my book, my parents. So she went to Perth, she lives in Perth, and she interviewed them. And I was on the Zoom call. Whoa. In Istanbul before a wedding. So it was like, I didn't expect, huh? Yeah, I didn't know where it was going to go, but I ended up sobbing because hearing my dad speak of the occupation, because he was born in 1949 and Nakba was 1948. And in 1948, it was very different than when he was born.

(00:57:09):

1948, my grandpa and his dad had an very large orchard farm, orchid farm, how do you say it? Orchard? Orchard. Orchard, yeah. He had a large orchard farm. It had olives and oranges, and they were harvesting, and naba happened. And literally within the same week, the Israeli occupation force came to their land and they tried to buy it. At first they like, can we buy it off you? And my granddad was like, no, this is ours. And the next day, the very next day, they came and they burnt it to the ground. They bulldozed it, and they displaced my dad's family from their home. And they got sent to Taber in Ramal. And then my dad was born the following year in a basement. And in order for my dad's family to stay in Palestine, my granddad had to work for the occupation force. And he made the horse shoes and he also made wine.

(00:58:18):

And there was one other thing, soap or something. But you didn't know this before your dad shoes? No, I didn't know. And because he never spoke about it. And how was he during the interview? He was just, he's very calm, but he was like, you could see, he was like, it's hard for him. And then after five years in Ramallah, they were displaced and they went to Jordan and then they went to Qatar. So that was my dad's journey out of Palestine. And then for my grandma, she was born in Yaffa. And Sorry, this is your grandfather's wife? No, my other, oh, both my grandmas were born in Yaffa, actually. But my grandma was married off to a Jordanian man in Irbid Jordan at 13. So they could leave, and her whole family weren't allowed to come except her dad and her dad's brother. So that was their way out, out.

(00:59:29):

And then everyone else stayed in Palestine and eventually moved to Gaza or were moved to Gaza, I should say. And a lot of them are still over there if they're alive. Yeah. So that's kind of their story. And when I asked my dad, why can't he doesn't want to go back, that's what broke my heart because it was the first time I really felt him speak on how he felt. He doesn't have a home and he doesn't feel like he belongs anywhere because the home that he knows isn't the same anymore. And he also had a bit of adversity around being Christian and Qatar and being ostracized by his Muslim peers and not accepted at school. And even though he was the best in the class, he was never honored because of his religion. And then he comes to Australia and he doesn't understand the curriculum because it's not in Arabic.

(01:00:26):

So he just never really felt he had a home. It was always taken away, or he was never accepted. And that broke my heart. I couldn't even fathom because I always felt his grief as a child. I'm extremely empathetic and I felt his sadness continuously. And because he would sit in silence and blast upper music and it would be 11 in the morning and the house, he'd put speakers in every room, and he is just sitting there wiggling his feet, just eyes closed. And that's his way of feeling. And he's done that ever since I was a kid. But it was always so sad for me to see that because it was Simon and Garfunkel sound of silence kind of thing. And oh, Andre Pelli, real emotional, emotional. So yeah, I finally understood the grief he was carrying. It wasn't just the material things that I thought it was of having lost everything Once he came to Australia, it was just a lineage of trauma. And so it's hard for him, but I think I've convinced him to go back. So we're going to potentially go soon. Do you mean convinced him to go to Palestine? Because I wanted to go with them.

AD BREAK - ISEEYOUFOUNDATION

Noor Tagouri (01:01:49):

So I was ask next is, so how does that impact your decision to go and how do you feel about going?

Sarah Bahbah (01:01:57):

I feel honestly, it's avoiding it because I can hardly process the things that I see online, and I just don't even know how I'm going to cope. I think it's going to destroy me in ways that I'm not prepared for because I already spiral if I think too much about it. But I am also mentally preparing because I know there is so much beauty to be seen, and I want to go to Jerusalem. I want to spend time in so many young buzzing creatives. I want to eat all our food. And I got to find, make sure that before I go, I am so mentally grounded and stable because I struggle so much with mental illness that I, I'm just worried it's going to, yeah, it's going to shock me in ways that I,

Noor Tagouri (01:02:48):

But I also wonder if I feel like a trip there for you, especially, it's kind of a pilgrimage. It's like you connecting to a bigger part of yourself that you've never met. And so I wonder if also you'd be carried by your ancestors and surrounded by people. I always feel this way when I go to out countries, even when I'm not from there. And there's like this sun, there's this lightness. Cause there's a familiarity. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm hearing the language that my family speaks like everyone. And when I speak it, it's very broken, but I want to, and I, there's just like this desire. So I wonder if, wonder if that'll come through for you and just you'll, I feel like especially you and especially as an artist and it's a part of your story, that you're be so carried and have to just trust that all the work you've done,

Noor Tagouri (01:03:44):

It's not even about mentally preparing for now until you leave. It's like you've been doing it since you were trial.

Sarah Bahbah (01:03:50):

Yeah. You've been

Noor Tagouri (01:03:51):

Preparing for this morning.

Sarah Bahbah (01:03:53):

Yeah. I believe that. And I know I have so many homes that I'll be welcomed into and I know I'll be celebrated and loved and adored. I just don't think there is a lot of anger. I'm carrying my family's anger. I'm carrying our people's anger, and I, I'm just scared. Of course. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:16):

Wow. Well, I honor your journey, your feelings.

Sarah Bahbah (01:04:19):

Thank you. Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:22):

I love it for you so much and I hope that whenever it happens.

Sarah Bahbah (01:04:28):

Thank you. Thanks, faith.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:32):

So what's the question that you're currently asking these days?

Sarah Bahbah (01:04:39):

I d Yeah, I know this is one of your questions. I just never, I didn't prepare for it. Let me think

Noor Tagouri (01:04:48):

We can sit in silence until one comes to you.

Sarah Bahbah (01:04:50):

Okay.

(01:04:55):

I mean, I am in a phase of truly trying to embody, and I'm asking myself, what exactly does that look like? Because it's something I practice and it's something I preach a lot. Love is self-acceptance and accepting yourself in all of your and as whole, no matter how damaged or broken you feel, you have to honor that. And so I guess, yeah, I'm constantly asking myself, what does true self-acceptance look like? And how do I integrate that into my daily practice? And so that means when I'm feeling anxious or when I'm feeling groggy or exhausted, how do I just it and celebrate that? Celebrate it as much as I celebrate feelings of joy and excitement. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:55):

I forgot where I learned this from, but it's been a really helpful practice for even what you're saying. And it was like, because language obviously is a huge part of that. In the words that we used to define our feelings or whatever, it's for new Brown has atlas at the heart. That speaks to a lot of different emotions that we can talk about. But instead of saying, I feel sad, I've started saying, oh, sadness is present instead of making it, I am this feeling. It's just the feeling has shown up. And I wish I remembered where I learned this from, but when I started doing that, it was such a, I don't know, it was an unlock in my brain. Cause I began to exist as a witness to what was

Sarah Bahbah (01:06:37):

Happening then A victim of it. I love that. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:41):

She was feeling as present right now, anxiety's present right now. Well, I'm not anxiety, but how do we kind of look at it from afar?

Sarah Bahbah (01:06:50):

Yeah. That's so beautiful. And that's definitely something that I've tried to practice. Often I feel like emotions are visitors and they just attach to you and you're like, oh, hey, what are you doing? Next series. Yeah. And they just want to be cuddled and heard and so they can leave. And that's really what emissions are. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:16):

So the way this conversation has been great. I could talk to you for hours

(01:07:20):

 Truly

(01:07:23): 

The way we wrap our conversations is a fill in the blank. The prompt is if you really knew me, you would know and you can share. Can you say the whole Yeah, yeah. I'll do the whole thing. Yeah. Okay. So we wrap our conversations by a prompt. And the prompt is, if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three things.

Sarah Bahbah (01:08:00):

Okay.

(01:08:03):

All right. You already shared it. No, no, no. That's so much. Okay. If you really knew me, you would know. I am an extremely introverted person, and it's really hard for me to connect with people and feel like authentic connection. And I practice openness so much, and when I'm in a room full of strangers, I shut down completely. And it's really hard for me to stay open. So yeah, number one, I'm an introvert. Number two. Oh, number two. Oh my God, this is so hard. Can I think of anything else? I don't know. I'm a really good cook. My friends are obsessed with this. I call it the famous spicy vodka sauce now, because everyone is just like, when are you making it next? Yes. So I've started doing these annual gatherings at my house where it's long fold out tables with checkered red table cloths. And I have 60 friends come over and I just make a huge batch and I feed everyone and we have wine, and it's just a true celebration of this pasta. That's amazing. And so I do that once a year and yeah, I guess if you really knew me, you would know how good that pasta tastes. And then the third thing is, if you really knew me, you would know I curate playlist a lot.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:52):

Your birthday Playlist When you shared it, you were a birthday Spotify playlist last year. Literally it was it last year or maybe year before. Anyway, I downloaded it and I listened to it for I love it so much. I didn't skip a single song.

Sarah Bahbah (01:10:06):

Really? Oh, it's because we're from the same generation. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I would say, I think anyone who is in my life knows that I am really good at curating experiences. And so a lot of what you see in my art manifest into my personal life as well. And so if I have a dinner, it's going to look beautiful. If I have a castle party with 30 of my friends, or tw, I think I had 20, that was the playlist. 22 people there, I'm going to take you on a journey and there's going to be so many thoughtful, intentional activities throughout the entire weekend. And I just love curating spaces. I like to make my art come to life in so many ways, and only my friends get to experience it. And that's really fun for me.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:01):

You created the world that you wanted to live in.

Sarah Bahbah (01:11:04):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:06):

That's a really beautiful thing.

Sarah Bahbah (01:11:06):

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This has been so beautiful. Yeah, you're amazing.

OUTRO:

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION.

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA.

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI.

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN.

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER SARAH BAHBAH.
BE SURE TO GET A COPY OF HER BOOK "DEAR LOVE."

ALSO, THANK YOU TO CITIZENM HOTEL FOR THIS BEAUTIFUL MOBILE STUDIO THAT WE’VE USED PRETTY FREQUENTLY THROUGHOUT THIS SEASON.

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) 36. Seun Kuti on his Father Fela’s Legacy, Matriarchy in His Family, What it Means to be a Pan-African Revolutionary, Racism in North Africa, and More.

36. Seun Kuti on his Father Fela’s Legacy, Matriarchy in His Family, What it Means to be a Pan-African Revolutionary, Racism in North Africa, and More.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:19):

3, 2, 1. 

Okay. It's interesting because I've actually been thinking a lot about the words good and bad and how they're very limiting words. They're not words. I try not to use them in general because I feel like what does good mean? What does bad mean? We use towards people a lot

Seun Kuti (00:00:48):

Subjective. Exactly. They're subjective words. And also at the same time, it's like the word sanction.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:54):

Yeah.

Seun Kuti (00:00:56):

It's like the word sanction to me just means everything. If I sanction your action, it means I support your action. If I sanction your action, it means I don't support your action at the same time. That's so good. So good and bad is just like that. Yeah. And it's such an extreme. He's a good person. So then,

Noor Tagouri (00:01:17):

But good to who?

Seun Kuti (00:01:17):

And no. But at the same time, no. If you accept that you're a good person. And so what can you do? What can't you do? He's a bad person. What can he do? What can he do? Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:27):

Yeah. All right. Seun Kuti, welcome. Thank you so much. You are here. We're recording this from the Apollo Theater where you're going to be performing later tonight with your band Egypt 80 and 24 hours here in New York from Lagos.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:51):

We are so excited to be talking to you. I feel like this conversation has been, it has literally been months in the making. We were hoping that it would happen last year. And then we heard you were coming back and we were like, we have to make sure that we do this. So thank you for sitting down with me.

Seun Kuti (00:02:03):

I feel special. I feel chased. Sought after.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:09):

Well we also feel the same. Now we're here and we're having this conversation. So the way we kick off these interviews is a simple question. How is your heart doing today?

Seun Kuti (00:02:20):

Wow. Yeah. The second person to ask me this question.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:23):

No, today?

Seun Kuti (00:02:25):

No. Since I've been in New York. Wow. Yeah. My friend Mikayla said the same thing to me yesterday. How's your and how's your heart this morning? I'm like, well joyous. So I getting there. Well I'm still, I'm in a joyous spirit. My heart is in a good place. Yeah. Joyous, pumping. Yes, yes. Rhythm. My heart is rhythmic. Good rhythm. 

Noor Tagouri (00:02:59):

I mean, a little bit before we started recording, you were talking about how you got to talk to your daughter this morning.

Seun Kuti (00:03:05):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, spoke to her a little bit, but she hasn't replied me. Oh yeah. It's not a full conversation back to that. No, no, no, no, no, no. She has her, we spoke yesterday, but it's also kind of like, it's 5:00 PM so probably she's up to something.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:18):

I would love to know with tonight's show and just where you're at right now and what is your intention? What is the story that you want to present to your audience tonight?

Seun Kuti (00:03:39):

Oh wow. Yeah, that's good. Today's show is actually really special to me. Cause some years ago, I think my dad played here in 1991 or something and the show was when I told him I want to play too. 

Noor: 

How old were you? 

Seun: 

I was like seven or something. So 32 or years ago, eight. And I've been playing in the band. When we go back home, I started playing in the band. So it's good to be back to the place where the decision was made. So today's show is, for me, it's a journey. So I wanted to reflect that kind of journey. So I'm starting off with some real, so I think today's show is going to be a real, and then we just get to a crescendo and end it there, finish on top. I really want it to be also a journey through, since we're in a place that he has held so much of what I'll call African time, black history as they say that African time. To me, I don't see it as black history here. To also be good to take people on that kind of musical journey through the history of Afrobeat music, play, things from really, really the beginning of where it all started from and all the way to what I'm doing right now. Even things I haven't recorded yet. I'm going to play tonight as part of this experience into this whole journey and where we are today, now Africa, now on up until the now. Yeah. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:14):

So a couple of weeks ago I was visiting the new museum and currently all six floors have been taken over by this phenomenal Kenyan artist Wangechi Mutu. And one of the first pieces that I saw on the wall that really took me aback was a collage painting piece of art that she has titled Yo Mama. And it's actually inspired by your beloved grandmother. And I began going down the rabbit hole of just how generationally there's been this deep message of anti-colonialism of African liberation in your family. And I've been thinking about how you've been continuing your father's legacy for all of these years, literally since you were a child. That's a lot of pressure.

Seun Kuti (00:06:09):

Funny enough, I think it's because of the patriarchal nature of the world that people don't also say like, oh my father continued his mother's legacy. Because suddenly Fela's story is like Fela just came out of nowhere as this revolutionary pan-Africanist. Not that he's standing on his mother's shoulders.

Noor Tagouri (00:06:33):

No, of course.

Seun Kuti (00:06:34):

Which is what it is, Fela is Fela because of his mother, because he's Funmilayo's son. If he wasn't Funmilayo's son, there's no way in hell he would be the Fela that we know today. And if Funmilayo herself wasn't her father's daughter, because her lineage has always been very revolutionary because with wealth comes a certain kind of freedom and her family being wealthy, they were able to explore those educational opportunities that many Africans maybe 90% of Africans were locked out of in those days. This is the 19th century I'm talking about here. Up until the 20th century, early 20th century, late 19th century where Africans were not allowed to do anything. We couldn't even walk on the sidewalk if a white man was coming here to step up in. This is not, I'm not talking about Jim Crow South or I'm talking about in Africa under colonialism, we couldn't own homes in our own countries.

(00:07:36):

We couldn't live in the same neighborhood who are sequestered and all of that. They were able to already be free of that. So her mother, my grandmother knew the world and understood the world and knew black people or African people had to change that world and raised all her children to be that way. People know my dad cause he's a famous artist, but also my uncle Dr. Beko Ransome-Kuti was even a greater revolutionary, if I have to say in terms of revolutionary work than my dad, went to jail more than my dad and things like that. But he was a medical doctor. So in my family has always been that fire. Cause we understand the true reality of being African in this world, in a world where the institutions are created specifically to exclude you and how you navigate that. So I think that is what it is.

Noor Tagouri (00:08:36):

So I would love to start there with your grandmother, Funmilayo. And how as a child you received her story. So she was an example from when you were young and when she was talked about or when she led your family. How did you see patriarchy not show up or the example that you were looking for? How did that frame your own worldview?

Seun Kuti (00:09:13):

Well, funny enough, this

(00:09:20):

Patriarchal conversation is kind of new in my family's lingo because my family has been quite matriarchal. Even right now, the head of our family, not the whole family, but our and Fela's children is my eldest sister. She controls the family, holds everything together. And my family has always had a long history of deferring to the women in the family to run everything. So even my dad has been called misogynistic and patriarchal in many of the criticisms that he's been given in the world of intelligence here, as you say, forgetting that we are not Europeans, that my dad married a lot of women, was his culture, not really him. It wasn't a power dynamic, it was a cultural thing. And also to the extent that in our culture as African people, women have always been elevated to positions of leadership and also worship. Cause in African traditional religions, we have the gods and we have the goddesses. So the feminine form has already achieved the divine. This is not Christianity or Islam where all the prophets are male. The son of God, God doesn't have a daughter, God himself is male, no wife.

(00:11:05):

We don't everything. All the forms in Africa already had achieved the divine. And we don't have a Christian myth story that blames the woman for the destruction of our connection with our God and all that. So there's really no, how would I put it? In pre-colonial African society, there's that balance of power in relationships. So my family being quite traditional to a certain extent, we never had that dynamic of power within the family where people were negated or overlooked cause of their sex. I'm telling you really there are some Kuti slash [inaudible] family. We've always been quite balanced and in our relationship and approach. So even without knowing my grandma, I would say I never really felt like, oh I was more special than my sister

(00:12:07):

In any way or shape or form or anything like that. My family, even my dad, my mom, although when my grandma was spoken of, you have to understand people spoke of my grandmom, they spoke of her, God, I didn't meet her. She died in seventy seven, seventy eight. I was born in 83. So I only ever heard stories. So I never met her. I only ever heard stories. And she's not spoken of, it's like, oh, do not take the name of the Lord in vain for Christians so they don't speak to her. Oh you can just, Funmilayo, when she was talked about it was in complete reverence. So for me, I didn't need that though to understand the balance that humanity must have between the sexes and the respect and the difference to the feminine form. Cause he existed all around me. 

Noor Tagouri:

I appreciate you sharing that openly because something that I'm curious to talk to you about is you have very strong feelings and stances and stances towards religion, specifically Islam and Christianity, especially in how they've shown up in African nations. And I would love to just dig a little bit deeper into where that stems from in yourself. What is your personal relationship with religion and spirituality and how it has been weaponized in your life?

Seun Kuti (00:14:03):

Well my family, lucky for me, my dad was not so lucky. My dad grew up in a Christian, very Christian family. And I think that is the biggest evidence from the child of my grandfather was a reverend and none of his children went to church because they could see that he was so fast. The closer you get to the reverend, the more anti-religion you are I guess.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:34):

Can you unpack that though? What do you think that they saw?

Seun Kuti (00:14:37):

My uncle told me, oh my uncle just told me his dad was such a hypocrite. Yeah, yeah. So my dad died when I was 14. So I didn't really, my dad, if you read his book, if there's anything you take out of my father's book, this bitch of a life was that father was an asshole. He did anything you take out of this book. So none of his kids liked him. So I think that's why they didn't really want to be like him. I think he wasn't a guy that was liked and he beat the shit out of him all the time. Because you have to understand also how colonialism distorted the meaning of love between African parents and their children. Tell me more. Many of my friends have so much animosity towards their parents and not because their parents abuse them in this real sense of the word, but that they love them in the wrong way.

(00:15:33):

Which is still abuse. Because when you are colonized and the word of your oppressor becomes, is taught to you as an inalienable truth, an incontestable fact. Things like spare the rod and you spoiled the child, which is nothing but the colonial is trying to use his so-called word of God to justify his brutality towards you. So that is sold to you. Cause Africans were so brutalized in the name of anything but Europeans to maintain colonialism and the civilizing, civilizing mission that they were on couldn't say they were doing all this cause they hated African people, they say they were trying to civilize them. So this was just a way to show love. Cause in the Bible that if you spare the road, you spoiled the child. I have to understand that Africans were children that were being molded into civilized adults. So a lot of whipping was happening. So a lot of Africans internalize this as a way of showing even in their personal relationship with their wives. In fact some African women will say if their husband don't beat them, then they don't think he loves them. You understand?

Noor Tagouri (00:16:47):

I'm following you.

Seun Kuti (00:16:48):

So a lot of African parents in teaching their children, in doing whatever, always beat them. Always in schools. You were beaten. I was beaten in school many times. But I told my dad that my dad wrote a letter and I didn't know I could tell my dad and something could be done. But when I told him he wrote a letter to the school that anybody touch my kid, I'm kicking your ass. So I was exempted on this whipping again. Oh my god, thank you. But all my friends were getting their ass kicked and they'll whip you in the name of teaching you in the name of trying to mold you. Correct you. So we have to understand that a lot of people went through this from our, sorry, lemme just from this experience that we've had and even up until today, it's super prevalent in a lot of relationships.

Noor Tagouri (00:17:38):

I'm noticing this, I'm noticing the power of a father son relationship when it is more healthy. When you're still all these years later thanking your dad for,

Seun Kuti (00:17:50):

Oh no, my dad saved me from so many of Nigeria's toxic social norms. And they used to think he, they used to call him crazy and I grew up now I'm like, man, yeah, it, it's difficult to be a normal person among the crazy group.

AD BREAK - AYS

Noor Tagouri (00:18:09):

When in your life did you realize how radical and different it was that he was protecting you in this way? Or that he was leading in a different way than the norm?

Seun Kuti (00:18:25):

No, I always knew he was leading from a different, I mean it was obvious that my dad was different. Very obvious that Fela was different from, and not just Fela, but the consciousness that ran our family, our community, those people that we knew as well. Cause you also have to understand that when I was growing up, I was kind of, Kalakuta was also kind of isolated from the larger Nigerian society in terms that we are so Fela was so stigmatized by mainstream society. It wasn't as if he was embraced like a national hero when he was alive.

Noor Tagouri (00:19:01):

Isn't that funny how that works?

Seun Kuti (00:19:02):

Yeah. But that's life – growing up as Fela's son. That's why even today I'm skeptical of the love that everybody suddenly says they have for my dad. I'm like, I take it with

Noor Tagouri (00:19:16):

What are you most skeptical of when they say that though? Because you're continuing Fela's movement of for the people and It's still met with resistance

Seun Kuti (00:19:26):

But mostly the mainstream. Especially I'm skeptical of the mainstream in terms of from media to government, like everything mainstream that's trying to embrace Fela. Media, corporations, government, politicians, even religious institutions trying to embrace him. I'm like, we need to really take all this with a pinch of salt and see how they're trying to change the narrative to suit what they want their agenda to be or the new agenda to be. And trying to take the last narrative to buttress that and maybe removing the true essence of what the man was about and just giving people what I call a Fela-lite version. So

Noor Tagouri (00:20:18):

What does that mean, define that for us

Seun Kuti (00:20:20):

Oh, cause

Noor Tagouri (00:20:22):

Who was Fela in that way?

Seun Kuti (00:20:23):

Fela in that way is this fun-loving guy that smoked a lot of weed and fucked a lot of girls and was a rebel. But his rebellion was basically smoking weed and fucking a lot of girls, so young people were like, oh, I'll just smoke a lot of weed, sleep with a bunch of ladies and give a big middle finger to everybody. And in this way, this is what a rebel is today. In the mind of so many young people, they don't understand that no, there's a system that you must key that rebellion against understanding what that system is. And your actions are not just rebelling in a void, which is what is happening. Everybody hates, I'll give you a good, everybody hates the government. Why? Because the government is run by billionaires. But everybody love bitcoins that are also run by billionaires and they believe that Bitcoin is going to set them free.

(00:21:23):

I'm like, how can you trust the Bitcoin if you don't trust the government no more money? Because it's the same billionaires that run both of them in almost sneezes and Bitcoin catches cold, he sneezes, Biden gets a cough. It's the same shit. So young people are not taught to be analytical this way. 

The narrative and the mainstream always wants to sell a simplified form of the narrative that helps you rebel. Rebel without changing anything. And I think Fela has also been put into this, they're trying to put him into this. People can imitate him without changing anything. So that's Fela light. That's what I call the Fela lite version. In a way, you think just because you go around smoking weed, take your shirt off, you know, have some girls around you and you know, give a big fuck you to anybody you like. Yeah, you're changing anything.

(00:22:19):

Nah, you just being disrespectful. We have to understand that it's a context and that's what must not be missing. Fela was not a rebel. He was a Pan-Africanist revolutionary who rebel, rebelled against the system. What they're trying to remove from anybody's narrative is that a revolutionary aspect. They want you to rebel, but they don't want you to be revolutionary because revolutions is not about ideology in action. So they don't want you idealized, they don't want you knowing. They just want you to have the feeling act with your emotion. You know, don't like what is going on. There's injustice. You can feel it. You can feel things are not right. You can feel the negativity, you can feel the toxicity. So they want you to just act off that feeling. They don't want you to understand what that feeling is, study what that feeling is, and truly begin to act to negate that feeling. Not just to experience it, what to truly negate it and remove it from society, which is what Fela is and which is that aspect of Fela that people must not forget as well that this was not in a void. This was against something. Towards something.

Noor Tagouri (00:23:33):

So I interviewed Ilyasah Shabazz last year, the daughter of Malcolm X for a series that I was working on and were. Talking to her about, she also in a way carries on her father's like Carries on her father's legacy by writing books, by teaching, by constantly speaking. But when I was talking to her about what it was like when she was younger, she had mentioned this immense pressure that she had felt to be Malcolm X's daughter. And everybody had image in their head of who he was. And she felt, I mean she is a different person. She has her own identity, her own personality. So she was mentioning how she had kids on campus at school chasing her down, asking her, wanting her to lead the black student association. Him always her on her to be him essentially. And she had to, in her career and until now, figure out who she actually is, what she's choosing to do that because she wants to do for continuing her father's legacy versus what people put on her to do. And I think that in many ways, you know, are literally currently leading the bands that your father had originally started. You are continuing the political movement, the movement for the people that your father started it. Was there a sense of pressure to do that? Or was it from the beginning just something that you knew inside of you was this is what I want to do for me?

Seun Kuti:

when my dad died, I was already 14. I was still young. But I was 14. I was like my mature, I was a teenager, I knew him. We did stuff, we'd gone on tours. I was really close to him. I was already in the band. I was performing with my dad. And at that age he could teach me certain things. Really not, I wouldn't say I understood my dad till he died, even when he was alive, honestly, I'm going to school. My teachers, the educational institution are not validating my dad, the media at home, the news, whatever, they don't validate my dad, the religious, don't validate the things he said. And those are the main things that shape your mind as well.

(00:26:20):

How did that make you feel as a kid? So he just made me feel like, man, this man is just doing his own thing.

(00:26:24):

There's a different world out there that I have to key into and learn. So yeah, my dad was this thing, but I went to school, I got straight As and I was aspiring to be an economist or whatever at that time because my dad also made sure that he didn't make me feel I had to do anything. The fact that I was performing on stage wasn't my dad. Oh you have to be a musician. I went to him, I said, yo, I want to perform. But, cause I was a young dumb kid as well, I saw my dad every night having fun, money, women. I'm like, this is the best job. What he say, this is, listen, I want to do this job. What do I do to do this job? He's like, okay, well we get to Lagos, start practicing with the band. And that's how I started playing. So every show I would open the show for him, I'd go on stage, sing a song or two songs, and my dad didn't even come on stage. So that's how I got my own musical things started. But after I started at eight, I was like 11, 12. I wasn't seeing all this money. All these women weren't there yet. I'm like, what the fuck is this job? I was already looking to quit.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:30):

By the time you were 11

Seun Kuti (00:27:31):

Listen, listen. What's going on here? This man is the only one getting the money and the girls, what's going on? So for me, my relationship with my dad, and I also had an elder brother who was doing music, who was so, I never had the pressure that, oh, I had to replace my dad or I had to be my dad. So maybe cause I'm, I'm not the eldest son. So maybe the pressure on my brother was different. I don't know his own relationship and how his psyche was with that. I'm just saying. So for me, I really never had that pressure. And after my dad died, I just kept on playing with the band as a tribute to my dad as a way to honor my dad. Really.

Noor Tagouri (00:28:14):

Do you remember how you felt then?

Seun Kuti (00:28:16):

Yeah, very bad. No, my dad was the closest person to me alive. And before my dad died, nobody I knew had died in the first 14 years of my existence. I didn't know anybody that had died. Everybody I knew was alive. The first person I knew that died was my dad and he was the closest person I knew. And since my dad died, I've lost my mom. I've lost a sister. Cousins friends, never cried. I only cried when I lost my, I signed an artist, but he was really young. It was so tragic how he died. So when the day we were burying him at the thing, I cried. I was so surprised. I'm like, finally woo, all these deaths. And I finally cry now. Thank you ancestors.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:02):

What do you think was turned off inside of you?

Seun Kuti (00:29:04):

No, nothing just matched that

Noor Tagouri (00:29:07):

Nothing matched the pain to your father.

Seun Kuti (00:29:08):

Yeah, nothing.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:10):

Do you remember the questions that you were asking in your head when you lost him?

Seun Kuti (00:29:14):

No, no, no. Well I remember the question I asked my uncle cause I didn't see my dad for a few months. I just requested him in the hospital till he passed. And I told him as soon as I said that "you guys didn't let me see him." And that just even made it even worse cause I didn't see him for two, three months till he died. So that made it so bad and I was so angry at everybody for that. Yeah. So after my dad died, nothing happened that matched up. My mom died. I was on tour with my mom. When they gave me the news, I hurt. And I was thinking, okay, I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. Nah, okay. And my mom and I, we weren't so close as well. We had a good relationship but weren't so close. Cause I was closer to my dad than I was to my mom. I didn't really have a relationship with her per se. She wasn't my friend. She was my mom. So yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:30:10):

It's so interesting because I find that think it's more rare to see and hear people talk about their dad the way that you're talking about him in having this very healthy, loving, close relationship. I feel like at least right now when I talk to men about their relationship with their fathers, a lot of straining. There's a lot of tension. There's a lot of wanting their validation but never being good enough. And it just feels like I can feel the energy coming off of you, this lightness, this urgency, this notion of it's so important to be doing this. And it feels like the fuel is still from the experience that you did have with your father.

Seun Kuti (00:30:56):

And I think maybe cause I didn't grow, maybe I didn't become a man while he was still alive. So maybe there was no, we didn't have time to clash probably.

Noor Tagouri (00:31:06):

So in your memory of him, he's protected in that way.

Seun Kuti (00:31:09):

So we only had a great relationship as far as father and son could go. And I was two years into my teenage years and my dad also wasn't the kind of person that raised us to believe that his love for us was conditional upon us achieving anything. I think that was also important. Yes, he wanted us to be serious with the things we were doing. But I think cause of the relationship he had with his parents and probably because of the relationship he had with his cause also the way my father had his kids. 

My eldest brother Femi 20 years, he's 20 years older than me. My next brother is 12 years older than me. So there's a huge space between the kids. And I think by the time he had me was older, he had seen the things he had done wrong with his earlier kids or I'm going to have a good relationship with this one. So I think I benefited from not just the timing I was born in his life, but from his own personal experiences with his parents, with his own first kids. And probably him trying extra hard to get it right. I think so. We just had that really cool relationship where his love for me, the validation was there always, regardless of what I did or it didn't matter. What I did was what I did. Our relationship is our relationship.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:45):

So I want to talk about the movement of the people in Pan-Africanism and how you are choosing to use music as a tool to relay the message of the movement.

Seun Kuti (00:32:59):

Well, tonight I'm going to, okay, I'm even playing MOP, one of my father's songs. Part of this story I'm telling tonight. Yeah. So I'm going to play MOP cause music has always been the fuel to the way that we have from my side, I mean for my father's time to push the African liberation struggle forward. Music is the great field that we have in our, and that's our talent. 

But now this is the catch 22. All the children of Africa must submit their talent to the liberation of Africa. Not just the musical children of Africa, but the medical children of Africa, the doctors, the engineering children of Africa, the media, the journalists of Africa, the nurses of Africa, the bureaucrats of Africa. Even the rich people of Africa must also not switch their allegiance to their own continent for once. I think a lot of people cop out and when they expect musicians to save the world, oh this artist is not inspiring this or this person is not making conscious music.

(00:34:17):

It doesn't matter about that. We have enough conscious music in the world already. What we don't have enough of are conscious doctors, conscious lawyers, conscious judges, conscious policemen. Cause I feel that all social sciences and these institutions that interact to actually run human society must be aligned to humanity. 

So definitely music has to be, what we have is the talent that I have. So I must usually to push MOP forward. The story of MOP. Every song I write, I feel is a dedication to the true positive progress. Not this abstract progress that we preach in society that puts everybody under pressure. That even if you sit down in your house and you're not doing something, you feel you're being lazy, you're not being productive, you're not progressing in your life. Not this abstract progress that sucks the happiness out of the life of everybody. Where you wake up in the morning and your future immediately begins to oppress you. You just wake up and you're like, oh my God, what is tomorrow going to be like? Am I working hard? Am I going to be, oh my God, I'm going to be homeless in 10 years if I don't do this. It's crazy. But the true positive progress of humanity is what we most dedicate ourselves to in a certain way. And that for me, I mean there's no separating that from the music. Let me put it that way.

AD BREAK - REP

Noor Tagouri (00:35:58):

Okay. I have a question that I'm a little bit curious about. Maybe even a little nervous to ask, but that's fine because I think it's important to. When thinking about Pan-Africanism, I shared with you that my family is from Libya. I often think about how when people talk about Africa, Northern African countries are kind of separated from that conversation. There's this distinction. It's North Africa.

Seun Kuti (00:36:18):

Yeah. Well we didn't do that separation. North Africans make sure that that distinction is made every time 

Noor Tagouri (00:37:18):

The future of Pan-Africanism. Does it include the entire continent in your vision?

Seun Kuti (00:38:15):

This is a conversation. Let me tell you really that yeah, North Africans should have among themselves. It's not really about us. We, I'm telling you the whole Africa will be jubilated, we are willing to reconnect. But the charge mean, I mean it's not the first time. It's what killed Nasser. Nasser was killed for his Pan-Africanist views by extremist Egyptians who felt it was not Arabic and Islamic enough. So the distinction between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa has never been from sub-Saharan Africa saying, oh, we don't want, no.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:48):

And my asking of this isn't to blame and it's not about where did this start? Who did it begin with? Because when I'm thinking about, and I'm thinking about, okay, well what about the future? What does this mean for future generations? Is there a way that this includes everybody? And the reason I ask this specifically, and I appreciate you bringing up the note about Gadaffi and Libya is because I've always, I, I've engaged in conversations about this and I know that there are a lot of people who are fans of Gaddafi because of that notion. But no, 

Seun Kuti (00:39:18):

It doesn't make my fan, I'm just saying he's what killed him. I'm not a fan of Gaddafi at all.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:21):

Okay. Okay. Thank you for correcting me. I appreciate that. But I'm saying I know people who, when I say know I'm from Libya who share the sentiment that they are fans of him. And it's be because of this. The notion of obviously how he vocalized wanting to unite Africa. And I also think about, which is obviously something very positive and the expense in which the people of Libya paid. 

So my family specifically has had their land taken and their homes taken. People have been killed. My dad witnessed his fellow students and friends being hung in the middle of the school square. And so these are things that people have gone through. And I'm not trying to sit here and let's pick apart these specific experiences. What I'm saying is how do we actually move forward in the conversation around Pan-Africanism and unity when even though the oppression looks a little bit different than typical colonialism, there still is oppression present. How do future generations make sure not to repeat these same states?

Seun Kuti (00:40:32):

For example, we live in the United States here where black people are shot every day on the street like dogs. Okay, what does it change? How many African Americans have upped and left America to be like, oh, my friends who are killed on the streets, six of my friends were doing nothing. I mean, so I'm living this country because we are not safe at the, because the narrative right of the world doesn't suit that totally. Nobody will accept you from America as a political refugee regardless of how much end endangered you are in America. But you know, can come from Nigeria, from Libya based on the internal politics of your country.

(00:41:18):

The issue, as I've said before, is that we going on is we must have the internal politics of our countries mean a lot. The sovereignty of those discussions means a lot. Libyans, Moroccans, I was supposed to go to Morocco last year and I canceled my show. Why? Because on the day I was supposed to play it the same week I was supposed to play in Morocco, over a hundred Africans were killed at the border of Morocco and Spain. The ones that survived, were treated like animals and nobody issued an apology. In fact, the Africans were blamed for being shot to death like dogs the same week I was supposed to perform. And I said that the only way I can perform at that festival was if that festival was dedicated to the lives of those people lost that day. If the “Jazzablanca” Festival couldn't dedicate their festival to the lives of the African people.

(00:42:13):

I mean if Morocco is truly in Africa and a hundred Africans have died needlessly, why is it so difficult to acknowledge that this has happened? Absolutely they refused. What did I receive? No, a few Moroccans were like, yeah, it's good that you didn't come, we support you. But the majority of Moroccos showed me the biggest racism I've seen in my life. My page was full of n***, monkey, whatever. We don't want you in our country. I went to Morocco also before that the driver of the bus that picked me up refused to put on the AC cause we were black in this bus. So as an African, I've been to Algeria, experienced racism, I've been to Morocco, I've experienced racism.

(00:43:01):

A lot of people in my country that have trapped in Libya trying to escape what held there and turn into slaves. So forgive me if I'm telling you for a fact that whatever the situation is between Africans and North Africans is an internal not African discussion. Look at what just happened in Tunisia. So the hostility must be quelled for you. People must have a conversation amongst yourself. What you want to be is what is going to determine the relationship in future. If by the time Sub-Saharan Africa becomes more sovereign, more strong, and the children of that place are more in control of their destiny and the people of North Africa still have this negativity, they will definitely be conflict. Huge conflict. This will be probably the next frontier was that what is going on in Israel and Palestine would be Sub-Saharan Africans fueling internal unrest in North Africa through these indigenous Africans that are there who are already pushed to the back.

(00:44:06):

You know, look at the TV today. You might not even know that there are Egyptians that are black skinned, like dark like me. You never know. There are Algerians that are dark like me. You never, because it's such a racist society. So this is something internal that I don't even want sub-Saharan government. I don't want the EU to be the ones to tell Egyptians to have this conversation and remove racism and anti-blackness from the continent of Africa. It's just like in South Africa, it's the same attitude that the Europeans they have towards the Africans there. For anybody to say what is the future going to be like in South Africa between the black and the whites? It means that person is naive to this person trying to be naive to the internal situation itself. So that's just what it is. Africa is weak. Sub-Saharan Africa is weak politically, economically, there is no repercussion to whatever atrocity you commit against these children.

(00:45:05):

So that's why African people are still shot in Europe and American in the street like dogs. Because no African government is going to start up and say, "you know what? I'm expelling the American right ambassador until they give me an explanation for why you've killed our children that are in your country." Cause if they were killing Chinese people like that, or Indians or Germans or French people that live here that, these governments will say something. Only the African governments would never say nothing about African people anywhere in the world that are being killed. You understand? So when that time comes that Africa is strong enough to ask those questions and you're like, no, we won't have that. So this is what would determine every relationship that Sub-Saharan Africa is going to have with anybody is the way each children are treated in those border.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:51):

How do younger generations make work towards those connections so that they can protect the future? Because it feels like there's, there's this cycle of repeating history over and over and over again. And then all of a sudden the little kids who wanted change or felt hope or whatever it, it's as if they become these same adults that we're seeing today. And there's like the and cycle continues and maybe things are changed here and there, but how do we actually create this space to not only support the younger generations so that they have what they need and the resources they need to make those better connections to aim for that sense of unity and peace and thriving versus what we're doing to them today?

Seun Kuti (00:46:40):

No, but I think a lot of young people on their own are disillusioned with the system of the world. A lot of young people in the world today want a different world, as I said. But I don't think that they understand the work that they have to do to get that. I don't think that they understand, they truly understand the people that are creating these feelings that they have. Because on the one hand, they all hate this feeling. And on the other hand, they embrace the people that create this feeling. Everybody's put on some kind of pedestal, some kind of. So at the same time you have to wonder if young people truly understand what is going on. And it is not their fault. Also it is because we have adult population that refuses to grow up, one, and they are completely betraying the next generation.

(00:47:32):

Why, you know, turn on the news. For example, you're supposed to go to universities, professors, all these people are in the pocket of corporations, you know, go to universities. Professors are not teaching the truths. They're teaching ideologies, they're teaching narratives. So you're not even ideologies narratives because they are after their grants. All our universities all over the world, not even in Europe, all over the world are sponsored by the rich. The rich run, the experiments, the grants are given from the pocket of the rich people who determine what experiments their money will go into and what knowledge will be advanced in society, which now goes on to create the kind of graduates that come out of these schools. Because those professors that do get the most grants are able to push their ideas forward, get further in the academic institutions and have more influence over this thought of the young students coming up.

(00:48:24):

So that's why the psycho perpetuates itself. Not because young people don't know what to do, but because they go into higher institution thinking they want to change the world and meet people who switch what changing the world means to them. So we are constantly being betrayed. So we must also understand that we're on our own in this quest. You understand? To change the world, we cannot believe in any institution. We must do the work of understanding the world. If you say you truly love the world, cause that is love. Love is understanding. So if we love the world, we want a better world. Why are we not spending time understanding the world? Why would we rather waste time on TikTok? We spend more hours looking at our phone than looking at something that can help us change the world. You can't change the world with our phone.

(00:49:11):

And it's obvious that we can change the world without our phones. Because I know for a fact that Nkrumah did not have email, Sankara did not have email, Lumumba did not have a mobile phone. And they had even had flights out of their country, maybe one flight a month to New York. And they made it happen. They organized globally. Crewman (sp?) knew Malcolm X and knew who Martin King was. And Martin Luther King went to Ghana and met with Crewman. These people coordinated themselves and worked hard, understood the world. Wrote theories and books that we still used today that is like they wrote them yesterday. And this is how much this meant. Understood the world back then. Today, as I say, pay lip service. Cause people just want clout. Trust me, people just want clout. Everybody's a social justice warrior because it's cool, I'm telling you. Cause it's cool, you know, do it for likes.

(00:50:09):

And the corporations like that. They want us to rebel, as I said, without a revolution. They want you to be a rebel without a cause. In that way you can be made to suit any narrative. So for us, I think young people need to the work, the immense work in front of us. If we truly want a new world, if we truly want a new world, we have to understand the immense work in front of us. We can't do like the Democrats. I always say many young people are like Democrats. The Democrats of America, they want to change the world, but they support the military industrial complex at the same time. Yeah, they tell you we're the good guys, but they support the banks at the same time. Hey, come on. So they're the good guys, but they support big oil. There's no difference between them and the Republicans except what they say. And this is the way they mold young, positive people. So they're young people that don't want to be positive. So yeah, leave them, let them go and be whatever. But the young ones don't want to be positive. They mold them into being rebels without a cause. 

Noor Tagouri (00:51:22):

Yeah.

Seun Kuti (00:51:23):

Cause.

Noor Tagouri (00:51:24):

So what is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

Seun Kuti (00:51:31):

What does this all mean? Yeah, what does? What is the grand plan? Not that it's a grand plan, but what does this all mean? Because I want to believe that. I don't want to believe that people are so greedy and so visionless that they think they're going to move to Mars after they destroy this planet. Really? That people are being hailed for going to space. We've already gone to space, we've gone to the moon. You understand? And some people are taking billions of money again and cause resources on earth are finite, is not infinite. We've done these things already. Now you're giving people more resources to do the same thing over and over now so that rich people can go to space. What is the benefit for humanity? If you can buy $170 thousand dollars ticket and you fly out of earth and you look at the earth and then you fly back inside, you're creating jobs, they're going to create jobs.

(00:52:33):

I don't get this, but there's no money for education anywhere in this world. There's no money for schools anywhere in this world. There's no money for hospitals. There's no money for social programs. There's no money for anything positive. We watch why the environment, the only one environment we have is completely decimated for nothing. Just so that people can do or buy another boat. And people truly believe in this whole wealth myth. Like this whole creating this, oh, you can't even mention like, oh, we have to put a earnings cap on people. Okay, after you make a billion, okay? Oh then is people are so programmed they don't even understand these numbers. I say to people, why do you need 10 billion dollars? People don't understand what a billion is. They don't understand it. Cause people just say 1 billion. Nobody understands what this is like. What a billion truly means. 

So what do you want that for and for what benefit are we allowing single individuals to accumulate so much of what is for everybody? Because this finite, as I repeat, not infinite, there are finite resources. It's for everybody. It is no matter what anybody tries to say, because of the violence that they've been able to use to dominate this world, everything here is for everybody. At some point. Our resources is not just for the humans, not just for the humans. The plant life, animal life, this is for everybody to share in everything that exists. But a few people are taking over 70% of it. If animals are dying out, rivers are being polluted because those are resources too. And they are wealth. They are extracting everything from every living species. Not only humans. The domination of man is complete, but the domination of nature is going to lead to the extinction of us all. And everybody knows that life doesn't need man to go on. So probably we just want these people to take what is ours out of nature so we can die off with them and they'll tell our story. I don't understand what is going on. What does this all mean? This is my So listen. You ask the question, this is where I am. What does this mean?

Noor Tagouri (00:55:48):

Do you ask that question with the intention of having an answer?

Seun Kuti (00:55:50):

Yes. But this is where I get - we are having this discussion since what does it mean? So I don't know. What are we doing?

Noor Tagouri (00:55:58):

My philosophy is I ask questions and I know I'm not going to get answers. I ask questions to just expand the way that I think and to gain

Seun Kuti (00:56:05):

I'm trying. Cause we need to stop it. This is the problem. What does this mean? Is not so abstract that we think, but what does this mean in terms of we are going to die out at some point.

(00:56:18):

Who is going to stop this train from going off the cliff? My political mentor gave a great analogy of is going on in America, which is kind of the same thing going on globally, that the train is clearly heading off the cliff, but nobody's talking about stopping it, what they're discussing. The Republican says, the Republicans say "only straight white men should drive the train of the cliff." The Democrats are like, "nah, gay men, gay women, black men, black women, everybody should be given a right to drive the cliff, train of the cliff." Nobody's like, "who's going to stop the train? We have to stop the train." Nobody's discussing that this train has to be stopped. That's just the truth. But we are busy fighting about who is going to drive it off the right. And this is the narrative. Everybody's kidding to this narrative. We don't want a driver. We're not talking, "Hey, stop the train." But the few people saying that they're so far in the back, nobody's even listening. Yeah. So what does that mean? What does this mean?

AD BREAK - ISEEYOUFOUNDATION

Noor Tagouri (00:57:36):

Thank you for sharing that. Oof. So I have a couple of questions from this incredible artist her name's Maimouna Youssef, also known as Mumu Fresh. I don't know if you've heard her at work, but I think you'd love it and I would love to pass along some of those questions. So first one is, what do you believe are the positive and negative impacts of Afro-Pop on a global stage and being consumed by and being consumed by a worldwide audience?

Seun Kuti (00:58:10):

The only thing, there's nothing negative about anything, any art. Art is expression. I mean, [inaudible] some certain things as well. So there's an artistic side to that monster, I mean is expression to a certain extent. I don't want to say that it's negative, but what the only thing I have as a critic is that the African elites expending so much on this narrative. Because trust me, don't think that Nigerian music, this pop, cause we dominated, right? We is there because we're so great. It's there because the Nigerian elites spend more on entertainment than they do on education.

(00:59:01):

I'm not joking. for weddings alone in Lagos, 20 million a week on weddings in Lagos. Yeah. And the artists get a huge chunk of this in performance. Everybody has their favorite artist. So in a week they're a million. Some of these big guys when they're home just performing at these weddings alone. So there's the money when they come here, they're employing Beyonce's PR. They're not going to employ some chicken PR from one Connor. Like listen, move. Who is repping Beyonce? Come here. How much is your money? So we played the game at that level. So right, that's good for me. African kids have the right to be kids and express themselves. We have the right to experience everything. I don't want that to be seen as something negative or positive.

(00:59:59):

The only thing I don't like is the fact that they try to act like that is the only thing happening in Africa. That is the only thing I don't like. Cause that is just not true. There's so many African, the African musical and artistic space is so wide and so, how would I put it so colorful. So it's not all of us fantasizing about owning as much Gucci and whatever. Cause this pop music that he say is African for me, kind of is kind of like a white man in African attire. Cause when I see the videos, all the things you see are like LV flags, Gucci symbols and cultures. We know it's all about the symbols that it portrays. And when you watch these videos, it portrays Lamborghini symbols, Ferrari symbols, and these are the symbols that dominate this culture. So is it truly African?

(01:00:54):

Is it just helping European sell more shit to African people? So let's not positive. As I said, it's not negative. There's nothing about it. It is what it is. It's art, it's expression. And African children have the right, young African people have the right to express themselves to this world however they like. It's the African adults that I have a problem with who refuse to grow up. They want to be on TikTok with the kids all day, doing the dance all day. Wow. Why nobody's there to build the continent or develop the continent. We are all on TikTok.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:30):

Well it's funny because another one of Mumu's questions is asking, do you let your children use social media? And if so, do you notice any positive or negative impacts on them as a result?

Seun Kuti (01:01:42):

Yes. No, my daughter is not on a lot of social media yet. She doesn't have any social media accounts. She's too young and the world is too dangerous. Yeah, I don't think, I'm not afraid of that because I think it'll influence her. I'm just scared cause I can't be there on her phone with her all the time. And you don't know who the kind of people that you interact with or whatever. So I say when she grows up and she has some sense to be able to at least sense some danger, she can go on social media. Because I want to believe that if you are a good parent, you are on your job, you still be the greatest influence in the life of your children. It is. Except you want to, how do I put outsource these days? Our parenting is outsourced. You know, want your favorite artist to raise your kids?

(01:02:27):

You want the teachers to raise your kids. You want the government to raise your kids, everybody. But cause you want to be on TikTok, you know, want to go have brunch with your friends. People don't understand that as soon as you have a kid, this is not, kids are different. Because now you is a responsibility towards the quality of humanity. This is your, you're going to live. You are bringing somebody new to us. It is your duty to make sure that you are presenting the best person to help us be a better family, a better human family. People understand and forget this responsibility because they're selfish. They're lost into the grid of this material world. They're more interested in partying or whatever than to be parents. But they want to have kids so they can have the clout of being parents. Cause this is what the world is today. So I think that's kind of what is going on, basically. But I'm not afraid of social media and its influence in the life of those that are close to me. Because at the end of the day, love is very powerful. If you not try it, it creates the highest influence in your community and society.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:46):

Thank you for sharing that. So the way we wrap up these conversations is just a fill in the blank. And the statement is, if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three.

Seun Kuti (01:04:01):

If you really knew me, you'd know that I am the laziest motherfucker alive. Yeah, yeah. That is it. That is my, that's my superpower.

Lazy is for me. Cause I don't want to sound, it's just humanity. Let me tell you the truth. I believe that we are put here to just spend all our time chilling, relaxing, looking up at the stars, contemplating on the universe. Then you go out, pick some fruits to eat. Handsome stuff. Go back to your house that your community has you all built together. Protected. Go back, you contemplate the world again. Think about your mistakes yesterday. See how you can be a better person. Develop your human relationships. This is what I think we're here for. So this is what I'm doing most of the time. But then I have this guy that who reminds me that I have contracts, I have to write songs, I have to go and do shows and this fucks up my funk. So if you really knew me, I'm lazy.

(01:05:17):

Cause I don't like to do any of these things. I like to do what I believe, what I really put here for. Okay. Last week, one of the best times of my life, this year I was in bed on Monday from 6:00 PM not, I slept at about 11, but I was just laying on my bed from 6:00 PM on Monday till 7:00 PM on Tuesday. Whoa. I did not move. I did nothing. Five hours. I read the book. I did use the bathroom. I went, I mean bathroom. Came back right back, got some food, ate right there. I did not put my food on the side right back there. Same spot when I finally today was I could dance in my bed. It was such a good day. I'm like, wow, I wish I could just have another 10 years like this. And they just, oh, life is easy. But nah, they switch it all up. Got to pay all these bills. They got to move. Yeah. So if you knew me, because most people always say, oh shit, you're so hardworking.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:26):

I mean, that's true too.

Seun Kuti (01:06:28):

I don't think that is a compliment. I don't think being hardworking is a compliment. I think this is the way the system gets you to. Forget you're supposed to be chilling. Oh, you're such a hard worker and. Oh yeah. I never see any

(01:06:44):

You be a hard chiller.

(01:06:45):

Yeah, exactly. Boom. I'm a hard chiller. That's the word. I should write a song called Hard Chiller.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:52):

I'll come write it with you.

Seun Kuti (01:06:53):

Yeah. Okay. I got some poetry in me. Let's go send you some emails. I'll give you credit. No money, but credit.

(01:06:59):

No, it's fine.

(01:07:01):

You get credit.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:02):

 Put it all towards the movement.

Seun Kuti (01:07:04):

You get credit, Hard Chiller. I'll give you credit. It's actually, yeah, man. Hard chilling. You know? It is not, it's not soft chilling.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:12):

There's hard chilling and there's heart chilling.

Seun Kuti (01:07:13):

No, no. It's hard

Noor Tagouri (01:07:14):

Hard but heart chilling can contribute to your hearts.

Seun Kuti (01:07:16):

Chilling. Yeah. Your heart, Ryan, already.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:21):

It's amazing. Do you have any other, if you really knew me, you want to share.

Seun Kuti (01:07:28):

If you really knew me, you know that I really wanted to be a footballer also. But that didn't work out.  I was discouraged by my uncle who was like, after 35, you have to quit. So what would you do with your life after? Yeah. And I'm telling you that was so profound for me and his were like, all the best times of your life would be in your youth. My uncle was really against me being, cause after my dad died, Dr. Beko raised me. I lived in his house. Last was about 21. I went up to uni, came back before I moved out of his house again. So he was literally my dad. So when it was time to, I was like, man, I'm off to England. I'm going to start, I'm going to going for trials and stuff. But man, sit down. Are you sure about this football thing? Okay. You know what? And it's true. Look, today, Rolling Stones still jamming. Yeah. Pele is late now. So I want to be able to jam, jam all the time. Still be jamming. So that's why I didn't play football. So if you knew me, you'd know I would've played football. 

Noor Tagouri (01:08:43):

Well we're happy. Happy that you're making music still. And I look forward to hard chilling.

Seun Kuti (01:08:49):

Hard chilling. Listen, don't be surprised. I'm telling you. Hard Chilling. This is the life, hard chilling man. We should commit to hard chilling. We are done.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:01):

No seriously. The next call to revolution.

Seun Kuti (01:09:03):

People should chill. Let's chill.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:07):

Yeah. We'll figure that out. Seun, thank you so much for your time.

Seun Kuti (01:09:10):

My pleasure. My pleasure.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER SEUN KUTI.

YOU CAN STREAM ‘SEUN KUTI & THE EGYPT 80’ WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR MUSIC.

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) “Hijab Butch Blues” Author on Being Queer and Muslim, Revisiting Prophetic Stories, Questioning Faith, and Community Care.

Title: "Hijab Butch Blues” Author on Being Queer and Muslim, Revisiting Prophetic Stories, Questioning Faith, and Community Care.

INTRO:

3, 2, 1…

Welcome back to Podcast Noor. I’m your host Noor Tagouri and I’d like to personally welcome you to this storytelling session, no matter what your intention of listening is. This is our *second* episode with an anonymous guest. The brilliant author of the memoir Hijab Butch Blues. 

Lamya H is queer, non-binary, and Muslim. Yes. There are people who are all 3. They are writer and organizer based in New York City. Lamya’s work has appeared in Los Angeles Review of Books, Salon, Vice, Vox, and others. Lamya has received fellowships from Lambda Literary, Aspen Words and Queer|Arts. They’re organizing work centers around creating spaces for LGBTQ+ Muslims, fighting Islamophobia, and abolishing prisons.

We recorded this conversation during the month of Ramadan and reflected on the similarities between Muslim community care and Queer community care, the common American Muslim struggle of double lives, we got into the concept of questioning faith, even our personal relationships with hijab. 

I read 'Hijab Butch Blues' in less than 2 days. The writing is profound, personal, and clear. Lamya poses questions throughout the book for people of all faiths. And it’s no surprise that the book was featured as Roxane Gay's March 2023 selection of 'The Audacious Book Club.”

I also feel a deep sense of urgency with this episode. Homophobia and transphobia are rampant in the United States, and it has been weighing on my heart heavily t he role many American Muslims have been playing in this. Scholars and imams I grew up listening to are now making dangerous anti-LGBTQ+ statements and I believe it is more important now than ever to amplify the HUMAN STORIES of community members who need our protection and love. I want to thank to all of the queer people in my life who have time and time again shown up in solidarity when Muslims have been marginalized and persecuted. May we always be a protection and light for each other. May we always lead with love. 

And…may you enjoy this episode of Podcast Noor with Lamya H.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

Amazing. Okay. So thank you so much for your time and for this incredible book that I read in two sittings in 24 hours. Less than four hours, actually. Wow. I know. I'm such a fan. What's so interesting about this is that the first person who told me about your book is actually one of my best friends named Becca, who lives in Italy. And she saw it there or found it there or something, and she sent me the book and she was like, I think you would really love this. And then I think somebody else also told me about it. But anyway, I saw Glennon Doyle's review of the book and I was like, oh, oh my gosh. I got so excited and I was like, I have to read this and I have to talk to this person. So I'm so honored and grateful that you're on the pod and that you said yes. So thank you. Welcome, Lamya

Lamya H. (00:01:44):

Thanks. I really appreciate that because I feel so honored to be on here. Cause I've been following your work for a while and just, I don't know, it's also just so great to be talking to someone who's Muslim about this. Yeah. So I'm really excited for our conversation.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:03):

Me too. I was talking to Adam earlier and he was like, so how are you approaching this interview journalistically? How'd you prepare for it? I was like, this is an interview. I feel like I've been prepared for a very long time. I just, there's so many questions and so many points of conversation that I feel like I look forward to us having right now. Because I think that for me, as somebody who's on a spiritual journey myself and asking the big questions of who am I and what do I believe and all of the things in between, I think that when it comes to bodily autonomy and just transparently queerness in the Muslim community and hijab specifically, those are two things that I'm always just, I have this big question mark around of why are we so obsessed with this in a way that isn't leading with love and autonomy and agency. So anyway, the way we kick off these conversations is a very simple question, which is how is your heart doing today, Lamya?

Lamya H. (00:03:19):

I think that's one of the hardest questions for me to answer because I don't know what your upbringing was like, but in my very immigrant Muslim upbringing, we did not talk about feelings at all. I think I even came to the realization that you're supposed to feel your feelings really late in life just wasn't intuitive to me. I didn't realize that you're just supposed to feel them as opposed to suppressing them or just glossing them over. So answering that question is really hard for me because I've had to learn how to answer it, and both honestly allowed and then also just for myself. So yeah, I'm going to be totally vulnerable here and be like, I'm kind of nervous. I get nervous every time I'm doing an interview or podcast. I get nervous in general when I'm doing anything that requires speaking, which is why I guess I'm a writer. So yeah, I'm both nervous and also just really excited.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:24):

Where do you feel your nervousness?

 Lamya H. (00:04:26):

Oh my God, I've had so much therapy to be able to answer that question, but always in my throat. What about you? Where do you feel things?

Noor Tagouri (00:04:39):

It's funny that you said throat because I actually, I think sometimes it's often my throat as well. I also have a thyroid related autoimmune disease, and I was talking to my aunt who also has one about it, and she was saying how trauma in this area oftentimes is rooted in when you feel like you weren't able to say something that you needed to say or speak on something, or if you've had trouble getting something out that needed to be said. And so sometimes I'll feel like a lot of warmth around my throat as well, actually. And I feel like being able to notice that is a really big win because I think, you know, can feel nervousness all over your entire body, but when you're able to pinpoint the source, you can better ask that question as, what is the message that my body is telling me right now or is sending to me right now?

Lamya H. (00:05:39):

Right. Yeah. And then that makes it easier to address it.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:43):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, so I read this book, shared it immediately, and even simply just sharing, I just was really bombarded with a lot of messages

(00:06:06):

And I had people who I don't always talk to or hadn't reached. We just had so many people reach out to us about the book. And it was so interesting how activating and how triggering it was because to me, I really thought it was such a beautiful and phenomenal approach to writing. You used these amazing stories from the Quran and the prophets that we heard growing up to really deeply reflect and document your own personal journey of coming into your own. It was really about coming into yourself as an individual. And it makes me sad when I find that people react to somebody documenting and speaking their truth. And so I thought about you a lot during those few days because I was just like, man, this is just from sharing it. I know that you have cultivated a really beautiful community, but I have to ask when, tell me about the feelings that you had leading up to publishing “Hijab Butch Blues,” and the reaction or the response that you got shortly after.

Lamya H. (00:07:26):

I definitely felt a lot of feelings in the lead up. I was definitely very sort of scared and nervous because I mean, part of it is just the act of writing a memoir in general. Totally, yeah. Because you do all the writing by yourself and then you put it out there in the world and then suddenly all these people are reading. And a lot of what I wrote feels really vulnerable because it feels really sort of honest and it just felt like I was talking about myself in ways that I don't generally with other people. And so I think I was just really nervous in general about that aspect of it, that suddenly everyone will all of these things about me. And then I was definitely, I was scared about the sort of “Muslimness” of it and how it'll be received. And to be quite honest, I was actually scared on both ends.

(00:08:34):

I was scared about totally how my critiques about queerness will be received to, and the way that those can sometimes get, the way that queerness can end up reproducing normativity in these ways that are really hard. And also racism and classism and transphobia. So I was scared about that. I was like, will people still invite me to their potlucks? And then I was also just really sort of scared about how it'll be received in terms of Muslim communities. And part of it was also, will Muslim people read it? Will people be so sort of defensive because of the synopsis or will they just glance at the title and then have their preconceived notions and then not read it? Even though for me, what was important to me when I was writing this book was that I wanted it to be really, really Muslim. I wanted to not apologize for faith or for the way in which our stories should also be considered canon. And the way that I didn't want to explain things. I don't want apologize for faith and for piety and for taking Islam seriously. So I was, because of that, especially I think I was really nervous for how it would be received.

Noor Tagouri (00:10:11):

I've also had experiences where things get taken out of context or people have reactions based on a headline or people have a reaction based on a lack of the fuller story. And for that response, that very surface level response, I very much feel like that's just not in our control. Those are people who are having opinion, who make those opinions and who publicize those opinions. You can have opinions, but to have the audacity to broadcast them or share them and take up that space without your opinion being fully formed or thought or engaged, I feel like that you just kind of have to weed out because it's simply truly a reflection of somebody's own inner insecurity and wanting to control a specific image. And I think that when it comes to Muslim representation specifically, because there is still such a lack of Muslim representation in media in general, that when there's a hyper individualized experience that's documented that people want to resist, there's, there's this reaction that I had when people were reaching out and it was just like, who are you to say, oh no, this story is not valid or is not welcome.

(00:11:41):

It's a person. A person is a story and their story is their truth, and they get to take up all the space that they want. And if you feel so strongly about it being different than yours, then go work on yours and go focus on yours. And so I really loved and admired and respected that you maintained not just the “Muslimness” of it all, but the fact that I was revisiting the stories of the prophets throughout your book in a way that I had never done myself. I had never asked those specific questions around it. And something that the book really taught me in your writing really taught me is what a beautiful act of faith it is to ask questions that you didn't know that you were allowed to ask. And I think I often thought of that in very personal regards, questions I was asking about myself.

(00:12:35):

But in when you were sharing the stories of Maryam or the prophet Abraham or even Yunus and Yousef, like all of those stories came with questions in a rethinking that was so personal. So I would love to just understand a little bit of how you and yourself got to a place where you were able to rethink the stories that you were taught and ask bigger questions. And I know it started with the story of Maryam for you when you were younger, so I'd love to know how that kind of changed the way that your brain thought about stories.

Lamya H. (00:13:14):

Yeah, so I think it's so interesting because even in the Quran itself, I think there are so many stories of people including prophets, constantly questioning God and constantly questioning their faith. And to me, that's so powerful. I Raim, for example, has talked to God and still is like, Hey, I'm not totally sure that I know my gosh, or that I understand how you would bring back something that's dead. How would you make it alive again? And the fact that Ji is asking God this directly, I find that so powerful. And that's not the only story. There's also Musa who was like, Hey, God, I'd love to see you. And then Allah's like, what? No, this mountain can't bear to see me. So how do you think you would be able to survive being seeing me? And then, yeah, there are just so many other stories. There's also, there's also the story of the man who comes across a dead donkey and just, I just find it so powerful that in our holy text we're being taught to question faith. And at the end of the day, I think that's one of the most powerful things about faith in general, is that it only exists because of doubt, and it exists because of questions. Because otherwise, if you knew for sure, then it wouldn't be faith.

(00:14:52):

Yeah. But there's just something about it, and the fact that it's folded into our religion feels just so powerful. And yeah, and to me, I read a lot as a kid. I was always reading books and I was always sort of questioning the characters and their motivations and their decisions and being like, why is this person doing this? Why not this? And to me growing up, it actually felt pretty consistent to do that with stories from the Quran as well. And not everyone is open to questioning. Not everyone is open to listening to these questions. And I definitely had teachers at or on teachers or I'd go to talks and people would just be really uncomfortable at questions. But I think

Noor Tagouri (00:15:43):

Can you share some of that? I'm really curious about that because that's something that I'm investigating right now is why are we so afraid to ask questions? And because you, I also strongly believe that this, our faith tradition is one that encourages asking questions. But even when it's right there in the faith itself very explicitly, when the actual act of asking questions happens, it's not always met with a very open response or response that encourages exploration anywhere outside of the way we were traditionally taught. So what did that look like to you, and what is a question that you may be asked a teacher and how did they respond and how did you start to understand, oh, this is a human problem, this is a person problem, this is an insecurity.

Lamya H. (00:16:42):

What I find most fascinating is that there's no correlation between who is open to being asked questions and in progressiveness. So for example, when I was younger, I had this aunt teacher who was an imam at a mosque nearby, and he was just very traditional and had a beard, wore a thobe and just was super traditional. But I remember being six or seven and learning to read the Quran with him, and he would just be so open to answering me and my brother's totally ridiculous questions. And there's this part in the book actually, where I talk about this incident in which I asked him if God was a man or a woman. And he was just so patient being like, well, neither, even though he could have deflected the question, or he could have been like, well, in Qu’ran, God uses hah as a pronoun, but he was just took our questioning so seriously.

(00:17:55):

And I think there's this way in which people condescend towards kids, especially, especially when kids have questions about faith, and they just assume that kids won't be able to handle complexity even though kids are just constantly navigating their worlds and constantly learning things. And so actually they're thinking is so complex already. But yeah, that's definitely something that comes to mind, this incident in which my very traditional teacher took us so seriously. And meanwhile, there have been other times when, so another story that I write about in the book is when I was at this halaqa at feminist halaqa where I was using they pronouns for God and people kind of freaked out. And so it's really interesting to me how, yeah, there's just no correlation between progressiveness and tradition and I guess tradition and being able to handle questions. Yeah.

AD BREAK - REP

Noor Tagouri (00:19:06):

Well, what's a question that you are asking yourself right now these days?

Lamya H. (00:19:11):

Oh, I'm asking myself a lot of questions always, but Ramadan just ended, and I've been thinking a lot about community and I don't know the extension of community and community care to people that we don't necessarily know. I've, I've been thinking about Sudan a lot, and just all of these people basically made refugees overnight having to leave one's home and just, yeah, I don't know. I've been thinking a lot about what are our rights towards other people and people that we may not directly be in community with, as in people who we don't see on a regular basis, but who exist and are and should be part of our networks of care. I'm also thinking a lot about trans kids and just healthcare rights being taken away, people who are pregnant and wanting reproductive justice. And yeah, I've thinking a lot about how to extend community care to people who are really struggling right now.

Noor Tagouri (00:20:36):

Well, what does community care look like for yourself and how have you redefined community as who you are today?

Lamya H. (00:20:49):

It's definitely something that I think changed the trajectory of my life. And I think it's so interesting because I think there's so many parallels between queer community care and Muslim community care.

Noor Tagouri (00:21:03):

Totally.

Lamya H. (00:21:05):

Yeah. I think about that a lot and this idea of why going to a mosque or going to someplace on a regular basis, how that creates community and how that creates networks of care. And yeah, I just think of people going to Friday prayers every week and seeing the same people over and over and noticing when someone isn't there or just the way in which that sets up ways to help each other and be there for each other, whether it's babysitting or helping someone out if they're facing food insecurity. But then also it's really interesting because queer communities have that too. And it was definitely something that I feel like I was missing a lot when I just moved here and was learning how to be a person in the US and then also a person after college. And just really growing into what kind of life I want to live, who are the people that I want to be surrounded by. And finding sort of queer Muslim community specifically just really changed my life. It taught me so much about organizing, about conflict, about how to be in community with people that you wouldn't necessarily choose as your friends, people that intergenerational friendships, how to show up for each other. And I think seeing other people live their muslimness and live their queerness really helped me come into those identities for myself.

Noor Tagouri (00:23:01):

What does it mean to be queer and Muslim to you today? But I would also love for you to reflect on how you would've answered that question when you were a young person who was just figuring out they were queer.

Lamya H. (00:23:24):

It's really interesting because I, I think people expect this sort of conflict between the two identities. And I don't think I really grew up experiencing that. I mean, part of it was I didn't have necessarily the words to talk about my queerness and I, yeah. So yeah, to me, those things weren't necessarily in conflict with each other. They both just were, and I was figuring out both of them in some ways. At the same time, I was figuring out how I wanted to be Muslim. I was figuring out what parts of it really, really spoke to me and what parts I was angry at and what parts, how I wanted to interpret things, how I wanted to live my muslimness. And then I think that there was a similar process with queerness too, where sometimes it felt very hegemonic. There was one particular way to be queer.

(00:24:39):

I'm out to your parents in this big fanfare, and then they can either choose to accept you or not, and then you're out and here's your life. Whereas that isn't how things have played out for me. And so I feel like I was also really trying to figure out what parts of queerness really spoke to me, and which parts allowed me to live a life that felt intentional and felt that felt was rooted in community and care and love and justice. And so to me, I feel like I was figuring out both of those at the same time. And I think I'm still figuring them out. I think that's the beauty of both those identities actually, is that even now I feel like I don't have it entirely figured out, but there are things that I know I value and that I want in my life. And again, it's so interesting because I think that's what God wants us wants of us too, this idea of intentionality and effort and constantly figuring out how we want to live. So I feel good about that being in a process of figuring it out.

Noor Tagouri (00:26:14):

How do you explain that or share that with young people who also may have not, and I shouldn't even just say young people, just people in general who are of the Muslim faith tradition and haven't come out to their family or their friends or are dealing with this isolation? I think, okay, I should just ask it a lot easier. So I think that Muslims, especially American Muslims in general, we held in a thought last week or a couple weeks ago, and I asked, and somebody mentioned living a double life growing up, and I asked them, I was like, what? Raise your hand if around the table if you're a Muslim and if you've ever felt like you were living a double life. And almost every single hand went up, and this isn't obviously living

Noor Tagouri (00:27:11):

Queerness or anything like that. It's just the fact that so many American Muslims have felt like they had to have different versions of themselves to the different people around them. And it's rare to have a scenario, especially growing up, where you feel like you can be your fullest self around your family or your community, especially when there is a lot of judgment or there is a lot of shame, or there is a lot of, I'm, I can get in trouble for this, or there is a lot of imposing your belief onto someone else. And so, you know, articulated beautifully in the book what it meant for you to find community and to find a community family that you are your fullest self around. And as of reading the book, your immediate family does not know. And I feel like that parallels or represents a lot of this obstacle of being multiple people to the people that we love, so that we can maintain a sense of safety or maintain a sense of still being loved and still being welcome. And so how do you advise people who are navigating that internal battle who are just like, because I feel like the compartmentalization of identities can be so exhausting, and so it can be so burden burdensome, but if that ends up being the decision that you make, because that's what gives you the most peace, what do you say to people who are like, I don't know, this is getting, I'm really tired.

Lamya H. (00:28:57):

Oh, that's so real and such a good question, and one that I genuinely don't know how to answer. Because yeah, I guess the only thing I have to add to your beautifully articulated question is that, I don't know, sometimes leading a double life and sometimes not telling your parents or your, I guess, wider community, certain things just really comes from a place of love, love and empathy. And I don't know, I think about that a lot in terms of my parents and other, other people who are navigating their lives and also choosing what to share or not share with their parents. But I don't know, sometimes this idea of authenticity and living your full self, I don't know, maybe it's okay to sometimes, I don't know, hide parts of yourself from other people. I don't know. Because sometimes it can be really rooted in just a love and an empathy and just knowing that the person that you're hiding things from just won't understand. And not that they don't, don't have the information, it's just sometimes people just don't have the capacity to understand. And sometimes people come from really hierarchical cultures where respect is such a big thing, and just respecting your elders and just not fighting back or not asking questions. Yeah, it, it's just like, yeah, sometimes, but then

Noor Tagouri (00:30:42):

There's love. Yes, that's the thing though. But then there's love and I don't know. Yeah, sometimes when I think about it too is I'm just, I think about how the families that we come onto this planet with, we chose each other. We are each other's tests. And I've been thinking a lot about how love to me, I believe is the source and the root of everything that matters and everything that's real. And that's the one thing that I know for sure is that the answer is always love. And I think that I would love, if you're comfortable to talk about just some of the things that you've, and you can feel free to be like, nah, not for me, but you know, are in a loving relationship and you lead this really beautiful love-filled life. And do you ever think about I wanting to share that with the people that love you and know you when you're with them? Or is there ever a moment of just, I wish we could go there?

Lamya H. (00:32:00):

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. It's really, really hard. There's something so sad and tragic about it, and there's something just really heartbreaking about people that I love not knowing that my life is filled with so much love, but yeah, I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:23):

But how do you think about, are, I'm asking this for all the people who are going to listen to this and who are in that, those same feelings. How do you choose to really navigate that? And is there a period at the end of, I will never tell my parents, or I will never share this part with them? Or is it a question mark? Is it today? I'm not, but maybe tomorrow I will.

Lamya H. (00:32:52):

No, it's definitely a question mark and it, it obviously doesn't work for everyone. So I think a lot about trans folks, for example, who don't necessarily have the luxury of not being out. But yeah, I mean, I really wish I had some sort of magical reframing that would make it easier or that would make it, that would make it more possible. But it's hard and you live it. Yeah. 

Noor Tagouri (00:33:32):

I think that you using that pain or test to, and making it into art and making it into words is such a beautiful service because I think simply the act of literally putting together a book and being like, Hey, you're not alone. You're not alone. You're not alone. And this is how this, it's not like you're like, Hey, I figured out how we can do this. I figured out how I do this, and I hope that you can. It's the power of representation. I hope that you can see some of yourself in me in this. 

AD BREAK BETWEEN NOOR’S BITE

And I've been thinking a lot. I've myself have just been rethinking hijab a lot too, which is also why this book was so touching and moving for me because it felt like it was, it's something that you know, came to from this place of your own want and your own reflection on Meam the mother of Jesus and her individuality and power. So I'd love to know, I never like to ask questions about hijab because I don't like to be asked questions, and that seems to be the thing that everybody likes to ask me about, but it is in the title of your book, and so I feel like it's okay. But I would love to know what your relationship with hijab is, and if you have ever do rethink it, or what are the questions that you ask about it or what does it mean to you?

Lamya H. (00:35:10):

First of all, it's really nice to be talking about this. I don't usually, but it's actually, I love that sort of framing, and I love that. I love being able to talk about it with someone who's also grappling with it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something I grapple with a lot and it looks different for me on different days sometimes. Sometimes my hijab is a head scarf and sometimes a beanie, and sometimes it's a backwards hat, so it takes many shapes and forms and yeah, I, I think the thing I actually really dislike when people make it about modesty or even about covering your hair is if same, that's the as if those are the end points or even something to strive towards. For me, it's like, it's a way of reminding myself of God. And I think the times in which I've grappled with it the most are weirdly the times that I've needed it the most. So yeah, I don't know. I think the thing, wait,

Noor Tagouri (00:36:24):

Tell me more about that.

Lamya H. (00:36:25):

Oh, you would pick the one thing that I dropped in there that was, yeah. No, I think to me, it's a reminder of God every time I put it on. And obviously this is not an every time I put it on, sometimes I just put it on, but to me, when it's working best, it's like, okay, I am going about my day and here's this thing that I'm doing for God. Here's this thing that makes me feel closer to so many of the beautiful, complicated figures in the Quran that I really admire. It makes me feel, it makes me feel like I'm part of something that's bigger than myself, part of the universe in some way. And I know that's so cheesy, but it feels like a connection. And I think that to me, yeah, I think to me that's, that's the most important thing. And in the times when I have not wanted to wear it or the times that it's taken different forms, I think just coming back to this idea of letting that feeling move through me and not fighting it and just being like, okay, this is something that I'm grappling with. It's something that I'm asking questions about. It's something that I'm trying to figure out. Just the prophets we're figuring it out.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:18):

Do you think that you Can fully figure it out while wearing it?

Lamya H. (00:38:21):

Oh my God, another excellent question.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:27):

As a journalist who is always striving to be objective and then also internally trying to be a, because for me, I feel this, I've, since I finished my investigation rep, which broke me wide open and asking these bigger questions of who are we and why are we the way that we are and why are we alive? I feel, especially with hijab, that there's been such a weight of what you are representing. And because it's being so politicized even recently and stuff, and obviously there is a component of being a public figure who's been know who's known while wearing this and all of this stuff. And I'm just like, okay, wait, what am I actually doing this? And have I ever rethought it? And is this something that I'm asking all these questions? And then I'm just like, wait, is this something that, are these questions that I can actually ask while I'm engaging in wearing it? Are these questions that I can actually ask while engaging wearing it? Do I need to become more objective in order to really ask this? And this is a really tremendous question to have to ask, because the reality of it is that everyone has an opinion about it. And it's so scrutinized that I'm realizing since the second I started wearing it, it's always been scrutinized. It's always been talked about. So I'm trying to navigate myself, what is the most objective and authentic and true way that I can actually ask these questions and find answers that are not influenced by other people.

Lamya H. (00:40:23):

I can wait for this essay or podcast that you're going to do about this, because I think it's going to be so deep, and I think it's going to, it's ask more questions than it answers, which I know is so annoying. But I really can't wait to see what comes out of your questions,

Noor Tagouri (00:40:46):

Out of my downward spiral.

Lamya H. (00:40:48):

Out of your upward spiral. It really sounds like upward spiral. Upward spiral. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:40:56):

Yeah. I mean, what I'm thinking about, so I would love to know, because as I hear you talk about your reasons for wearing hijab, I've said all of those reasons of that too. I've said every single thing, and I felt it. And I also am just like, now I'm like, okay, but I think, I don't know, fundamentally I'm, do I believe that God wants my hair to be covered, or is it about hair, or why is it it that when people react so much to seeing hair, it feels like a person who chooses to wear it is being reduced to that. And that's not just from Muslims, especially from Muslims I, it's something that I feel like I'm just like, wait, this reducing me to just this thing that I choose to do is so dehumanizing, and so how do I take back my own humanity and figure that out for myself? And these are, again, all questions, no answers, and I'm in a very big state of asking questions, but I'd love to know if you've gotten there with your questions. 

Lamya H. (00:42:01):

Yeah. So what's interesting for me is that another angle of questions that about hijab that really has me in a tizzy is a way that it ends up feminizing people and it really fucks with notions of gender. I think about it a lot in terms of my gender identity too. And yeah, I don't know. I think it's interesting because for a really long time I thought that I couldn't call myself non-binary because I wore hijab and is so, it makes me be read as a woman in this very sort of overt way. So to me, what's also been really interesting is playing with what hijab looks like. So for example, when I wear a beanie and walk down the street, people can't necessarily tell that it's my hijab. And so I don't know, the way that I'm read is so different, and I know it's so cliche to say this a

Noor Tagouri (00:43:19):

Lot more non-binary

Lamya H. (00:43:20):

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But sometimes I get the sort of queer head nod from people. Yeah, hey, I see you. Which is really interesting because I do that head nod with hijabi. Every time I see hijabi, I'm like, Hey, eye contact, super secret, head nod. Yeah. So to me, another aspect of it is also the sort of genderedness of it, but I also, on my end, I think weirdly, my wearing hijab also expands that. Yeah. So I don't know. Those are also angles that I'm thinking about a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:00):

Yeah, I, okay. I guess I, I'll just ask you, what do you think, based on your own reading and interpretation and how you have come to the faith, what is hijab to you? What is it? Is it about covering our hair and bodies? Is it a connection to God? What is it?

Lamya H. (00:44:27):

Yeah. No, I think it's about God consciousness. And it can take on different forms. It can take on vastly different forms for people. I also, I don't know. I also think that there are multiple paths to God. Just because the path that I'm on works for me doesn't necessarily mean that it works for other people. And I actually, I don't think God would be petty enough to be like, Hey, here's this other path that is bringing this person closer to them. But they'd be like, no, wait, there's only one path. Yeah, I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:05):

I say, that's what, that's exactly how I feel. And that's why I say it's a human problem, because it's like, why do we, even with wanting to call God, they, because God also refers to themselves as we in the Qur and stuff. And just being like, why do we think that the majesty of God who we can't fully comprehend in our brains, would get offended By a word that they know in their heart, in our hearts, what our intention is? Yes. Of how we're choosing to connect that. That's why it just feels like, it's like, no, God isn't offended. You are offended because you are afraid because you, we don't let our minds go there. We don't ask those questions, or we're really just trying to stick to, well, I'm not worthy of interpreting things for myself because you have to be a learned scholar. There's this notion of, unless you're a learned scholar, you can't say things out loud, which I'm not here to say I am a historian, or I know all of the stories or all of that. That's not it at all. But I don't think that you need to be a learned scholar to ask questions and to engage in conversation with God. 

Lamya H. (00:46:18):

Yeah, I agree. And then this is also the same God that has the most beautiful names ascribed to them, including the most merciful and the most loving and the most kind. And yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes we forget those things.

Noor Tagouri (00:46:41):

So something that I noticed that you did in the book, you talk about all of the chapters are broken up by these stories of different prophets, and I was hesitant. I was like, do I want to ask this? Do I not want to? But I was thinking about it too much, so I was like, of course I'm going to ask it, and you obviously can answer it exactly how you want to. So when it comes to queerness, the story that is always referred to in conservative Muslim communities is the story of Loot or Lot. And you specifically did not reference, you didn't reference that story in the book. You didn't even touch on what the traditional, you weren't like in the tradition, in the conservative form of the tradition. This is what people think. You were just like, no, this is my story. I'm talking about it through my reflections. And you engaged so deeply and so thoughtfully with the stories of so many of the other prophets and figures in the religion. So tell me about that decision, and if it was something that you thought about and if it was how maybe you chose to engage with that story off the page.

Lamya H. (00:48:00):

That is an excellent question. You really went there.

Noor Tagouri (00:48:05):

I'm like, wait, listen, I'm a Muslim woman who's interviewing you. We're just going to skip through everything, hope that everybody reads the book and gets straight to the nitty gritty.

Lamya H. (00:48:15):

Yeah. So what's really interesting is that I feel like I have been engaging with that story so much since I came into my queerness that at this point, it feels like, it feels like I've engaged with it so much that it's almost like boring because there's so many different interpretations of it, including what the people of Lot were punished for, their interpretations about how it was actually rape and not sodomy, their interpretations about their highway robbery and just all of these other terrible things that they did. And a lot of people have written extensively about the ways in which Prophet Lot offers his daughters, and why would he do that? That's such a weird, what are you offering them in terms of sex or marriage? But marriage is never mentioned anywhere. And so, I don't know, there's just, there's a lot of lot of layers to that story that I think we don't always fully know. And there are a lot of layers that are confusing and just not, we just don't know. And so one of the people who is written about it is Scott Kugel in his book, “Homosexuality in Islam,” and yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think that there are so many different interpretations of it that I, I don't know, other people have written about it better than I could. That make sense? Yeah, totally. It's

Noor Tagouri (00:50:00):

Interesting though, because I feel like when I talk to queer Muslims, they share that sentiment of, there's so many different interpretations. And then when you hear people in the communities that I grew up in, which were a lot more conservative, there're like, no. And other, there's this almost this reaction of there are no other interpretations. And not only are there not any other interpretations, but if you bring any other interpretations, the first instinctual reaction is to dismiss it or discredit the person who wrote it, as if they're just trying to write something to appease themselves. And it's just like, but isn't that so limiting like that? And sometimes I wonder if the obscurity in that story is also just a test To see If people will choose the path of love and acceptance, or they'll choose the path of trying to control and put people down. Because I've never, for me personally, and all of the things I'm saying are my personal opinions, but I feel like it's one thing to be like, everybody goes through different tests in life, but I don't feel like love is something that you get tested by in that way, where it's just like, you can experience love, but you can't have it. That doesn't make sense because God is love. 

So sometimes I wonder if the obscurity of that story and the way that people react to it is part of the test of, are you going to think about this through the lens of a loving God, or are you going to think about it through the lens of wanting to control other people? And even if you don't ever get to that place, what is the obsession with trying to control other people's bodies? This is what I keep coming back to. It's like, why are we so obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, whether it comes to wearing the hijab or not wearing the hijab or queerness or transness. Why are we not just focused on ourselves and being a good person ourselves?

Lamya H. (00:52:13):

Yeah. I really, really, really love that reframing. And I especially love the idea that maybe the obscurity is deliberate and there's a test in there. And also, I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's place to judge us, and the best that we can do is try to live a life that feels like it's worthy of this life that God has given us.

Noor Tagouri (00:52:53):

Yeah, I love that. So my whole hypothesis of why you decided to not write the story, not put that in your book, is simply because you're like, yeah, I just engaged with it way too much that I found it boring to write about.

Lamya H. (00:53:11):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:12):

This is why I needed to ask. Yeah. Cause I needed to just get out of my head and be like, it wasn't some big philosophical scheme. It was just that wasn't meant for the book.

Lamya H. (00:53:22):

Yeah, exactly. Tell

Noor Tagouri (00:53:24):

Me about your relationship with writing, and just if you're open to sharing a little bit more of your background, what role did writing play in your life? And I know you never really specifically share where your family's from and stuff, but if you're open to it, I would just love to know the traditions that you come from that led you to choosing this as your art form.

Lamya H. (00:53:49):

So I read a lot as a kid, and then also as a young adult. So I don't know, I think of reading as sort of pre-writing. It is,

Noor Tagouri (00:53:59):

It totally is, You're a better writer the more you read.

Lamya H. (00:54:03):

Agreed. So I actually didn't write until pretty late in my life. In my life, late twenties, I would. So what happened was that I would tell all these stories about how something had happened that was really messed up, or some form of discrimination or something. So I would tell people these stories. And this one time my friend was so, you know, feel all of this sort of rage and anger, and it kind of dissipates when you tell the stories. It's something that I've noticed you should consider writing them down instead. And I was like, so

Noor Tagouri (00:54:42):

Anger management?

Lamya H. (00:54:43):

Totally, a hundred percent. And this friend is someone who I respect a lot, and I was like, okay, let me try it. And I tried it and I found myself, I found that I really, really enjoyed it, and I found that in addition to the anger management aspect of it, it also allowed me to ask questions, and I'd be stuck about something in my head, and I'd be like, why do I just keep coming back to this? What about it feels so tangled? And I found that when I wrote about it, it didn't necessarily disentangle it, but it allowed me to look at it from different aspects and ask different questions and just really, really just get a better picture of it. So that's how I started writing. And I wrote essays at first, and then I found myself writing this essay about Hager, which is one of the essays that comes towards the end of the book.

Lamya H. (00:55:47):

I found myself writing it, and then I realized that in some ways, the essays in this book are essays that I've been, sort of things that I've been thinking about my whole life. And so writing the book followed naturally from there.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:04):

How long did writing this book take you?

Lamya H. (00:56:08):

It took about, I'd say maybe a year and a half. So the pandemic shutdown happened when I was about maybe a third of the way through it, and I have the kind of job where I have to be in person for, and I couldn't work from home. And so suddenly I had all this sort of time and space to write, and so I found myself sort of speeding through writing the rest of it pretty fast.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:35):

What did your writing days look like?

Lamya H. (00:56:40):

A lot of early pandemic stuff, cooking, elaborate meals, doing a lot of writing in between just, and then a lot of zoom workouts to really get those juices flowing.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:06):

I working out good food and

Lamya H. (00:57:10):

Time and space.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:11):

Yeah. Yeah.

Lamya H. (00:57:13):

Also, this thing happens to me when I'm working on an essay where I feel sort of consumed by it, and I find myself thinking about it a lot in ways that feel really fun. So I'll be taking a shower and then I'll have all of these sort of ideas, or I'll be on a walk and I'll have these ideas. And so there's this way in which it feels like I'm not a person who's a daily practice, who has a daily writing practice. I wish I was, was a lot more disciplined in that way. But I definitely am the kind of person where once I get my teeth into an essay, it feels like I can't let go.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:55):

Ah, amazing. Are you working on any writing now?

Lamya H. (00:58:00):

I am, but it's so much in the beginning stages that it feels weird to talk about.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:06):

Okay. So not even a hint. Not even this, is it memoir? Is it fiction?

Lamya H. (00:58:14):

No, I can give you a little bit more since you asked so nicely. It's fiction, and the general theme is going to be about it. It's going to be about creative resistance in the Gulf and the way in which people who live there are able to find ways to resist despite constraints.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:48):

Love that. I mean, yeah, you have such an interesting story of your family being from a southeast Asian country and then living in the Gulf and then moving to New York and becoming this New York, this New Yorker, this definition of what it means to be in New York. And it's, I, ugh. I'm so excited. That's amazing. Yes. No, go for it.

Lamya H. (00:59:11):

Oh, I was just going to say, best city in the world,

Noor Tagouri (00:59:14):

Truly, your social media situation is “Lamya is angry”. Are you still angry?

Lamya H. (00:59:26):

Yeah, I am. Don't a bad,

Noor Tagouri (00:59:30):

So happy. In your voice, how have you redefined anger?

Lamya H. (00:59:37):

That's a really good question. I was always an angry kid. And the, as I've sort of grown up, to me, anger has actually become a motivating force towards justice. I know that there's this way in which even Islamically, you're taught that anger is something that if you're standing up, you should sit down. If you're sit down, if you're sitting down, you should lie down it. It's something that you're supposed to let dissipate. But for me, anger has actually been something that I've been able to channel into things like writing or organizing or activism. And so to me just, I don't know. I don't ever want to lose the ability to be angry at things, especially at injustice.

Noor Tagouri (01:00:25):

Love that. I love it.

AD BREAK - ISEEYOUFOUNDATION

Lamya H. (01:00:52):

I also feel like I got a sense of some of your existential crises. Is that correct? Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:00:59):

That's so correct. That's so correct. But it's a part of the journey, right? We're on the planet to experience. That's why I welcome it. I mean, I know it's not easy and none of it is, but I welcome it. And I always, I have so many queer friends and I have really redefined community for myself in so many ways. And I realized that for me, community is really about collecting people who lead with love and service and curiosity and are very open and ask questions without the intention of getting an answer or imposing their beliefs onto you, but simply as a way to witness one another. And so I tend to gravitate towards people that give me the space to just be instead of trying to fix anything. And I feel like growing up that it was a little bit different, and I've asked questions since I was a kid, so that has never changed.

(01:02:04):

But as I'm evolving and growing up that I'm realizing, oh, not all questions are welcome to everyone, or just questions just make people really uncomfortable, but that feels like the power of the question and why we need to be asking them why we need to be asking them more. So I'm grateful for the questions that you've posed here and in your book and how you talk to how you just approach things. But I keep thinking about young queer Muslims who are really just struggling in this. And there are some tragic stories that I have happened in our spaces of people dying by suicide when they haven't been able to reckon their own identities or people, I mean, I don't have to describe them these stories, I'm sure, but I would love to just hear you speak to a person who is a queer person of a faith tradition that doesn't welcome queerness and is wondering if life is for them.

Lamya H. (01:03:31):

Wow. That's a really good question, and one that is really hard to answer. I think to me, what I would go would tell myself when I was younger is that the joys and there will be joys are so worth it. Yeah, I know. That's not a very sort of comprehensive answer. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:14):

Well, you also, I literally realized as I asked you that, and it is, where is it? Right? In the beginning of the book, you literally write about not wanting to be alive, but it wasn't in a dramatic way. It wasn't, it was just a very clear fact. It was just like, this is how I felt, This is what I'm going to do with this feeling.

Lamya H. (01:04:41):

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something that I remember vividly, this idea of wanting to disappear. It wasn't even a wanting to die. It was just a wanting to not have been, if that makes sense. And I don't know, I think in some ways some of that just never goes away, but there has been so much joy in my life, and there's been so much beauty and so much love. I wish that I could go back to the younger me and I don't know, tell that kid that those would be things that would make everything worth it.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:40):

Now I have a little bit of a more, maybe even more uncomfortable one, but I'm going to ask it. And if you say no, then that's absolutely beautiful and fine. But you're on here completely anonymously. I have no idea who you are, what your real name is. I'm assuming it's not Lamya, but I do feel like I have a sense of who you are for sure. But I would love to ask the person behind Lamya, if you ever did feel like you wanted to share a little bit more about who you were or who you are with your parents or siblings, what would you say to them? What do you want them to know?

Lamya H. (01:06:31):

So I have shared with my sibling with my brother, and he was really, really amazing and just so lovely. But yeah, I mean, I wish my parents, I wish they knew how much love was in my life.

Noor Tagouri:

I can feel how grounded you are and how clear you are and how you've really made this life your own. And I'm such an honor to witness it on the page and on the pod, and I look forward to seeing what comes next and what other stories come out of you.

Lamya H. (01:07:35):

Yeah, same. I'm also excited to see where this giant experiment in being a person goes, which we're all doing, we're all engaged in this giant experiment of being a person.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:51):

So the way we wrap these conversations is with a fill in the blank. So the prompt is, if you really knew me, you would know. You can share one, two, or three things.

Lamya H. (01:08:04):

This is so cringe, but I have to say it. I love emojis, I am so into them. I really contain myself when I'm texting, but if I could, I would just text in emojis. I think that they offer a really fun way to open up what you're saying to interpretation.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:30):

Oh my gosh.

Lamya H. (01:08:31):

Yeah, I'm your favorite. Oh my God, these days I'm really into the one where it's a little melty. Smiley. The smiley. Oh my gosh.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:39):

My mom sends me that one all the time.

Lamya H. (01:08:41):

Really? See, oh my God. Wow. Me and your mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I

Noor Tagouri (01:08:47):

Love it. Yeah. Wow. Any other, if you really knew-me’s, that's a really good one.

Lamya H. (01:08:52):

I really want to run a marathon one day. I haven't yet, but I'm waiting for the right time. I feel like it's something that I would get really, really into. And the last thing I need right now is more things than I'm really, really into, but it It's on my list. Yeah, it's on my list of tudo things.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:11):

Wait, what else are you really into?

Lamya H. (01:09:16):

I started this whole writing thing and I thought it would just be a hobby, but now I'm so into it and I just like can't stop doing it. Yeah. I'm really into that. Yeah. That's a big thing. I'm really into learning how to drive. I am off the generation that just grew up where I grew up that just like didn't learn how to drive. So I'm really into learning how to drive right now. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:53):

Wow. I love it. Lamya, thank you so much. I'm going to do this thing that I just heard Adam Grant start doing, and I didn't realize I was going to do this until this very moment, but he's been wrapping his podcast episodes, asking his guests if they have any questions for him. And since this was a two-way conversation, and you absolutely don't need to do this, but just in case, are there any questions that you may have for me in this upward spiral?

Lamya H. (01:10:23):

Wow. I guess, how is your heart feeling?

Noor Tagouri (01:10:31):

Thank you for asking. Yeah. It's like the worst question anyone can ask me.

(01:10:36):

It's so funny. I always tell people I ask the question, but then I hold my breath and I hope nobody asks me back. I don't know if that's hypocritical, but my heart today is feeling really grounded and relieved. I feel like I have, I've really gone through a lot in the last couple of months, but I don't even, I say a couple of months, but it's actually been a lot longer and a lot shorter and everything in between. It's just been really, really intense, and so today I feel really grounded and grateful. I was really looking forward to this, and I just really wanted you to know that we are here to be of service in any way that we can, and that your work is so important. Your words and your story is so important, and it is an honor to get people riled up simply by sharing your book, because that just tells me how much we all need it. That's how my heart's doing.

Lamya H. (01:11:41):

Such a good answer.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:44):

Thank you so much, Lamya. I'm so happy that we got to talk.

Lamya H. (01:11:47):

Me too.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:50):

Amazing.

OUTRO:

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER LAMYA H.

BE SURE TO CHECK OUT HER MEMOIR, “HIJAB BUTCH BLUES” - YOU CAN FIND HER ON SOCIAL MEDIA AS @LAMYAISANGRY.

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) Is The Climate Crisis a Spiritual Crisis? Panel with Ayisha Siddiqa and Sophia Li

Title:

Is the Climate Crisis a Spiritual Crisis? with Sophia Li and Ayisha Siddiqa

INTRO:

3, 2, 1....

The climate crisis is REAL. And it’s impacting all of our lives. It’s been on my heart to have a climate focused episode on Pod Noor but I wanted to make sure the conversation was one my listeners were really going to connect to. 

So the question I had been asking myself was: Is the climate conversation, a spiritual one? And because everything and everyone is interconnected, the answer I found was yes, of course it is. I wanted multiple perspectives and stories on this topic so - yay! Another Podcast Noor panel :) 

The first person who came to mind for this conversation is one of my dearest friends, Sophia Li. 

Sophia Li is a Chinese-American award-winning climate journalist and advocate. Her life’s work is to make talking about issues such as climate justice, human rights and web3 more accessible, more digestible, and more human. Harvard even named her one of the top climate communicators of 2022.

She is also the co-founder of STEWARD, a Digital Art collection and community that partners with conservation, environmental justice and Indigenous nonprofits and global artists to protect the major ecosystems of our natural world.

And around the time I knew I wanted to have this conversation, I saw a powerful cover of Time magazine’s Women of the Year issue featuring a young activist by the name of Ayisha Siddiqa. 

Ayisha Siddiqa is a human rights and land defender from the tribal lands of Mochiwala and Mahsan in Pakistan. She is the co-founder of Polluters Out and Fossil Free University. Her work focuses on uplifting the rights of marginalized communities while holding polluting companies accountable at the international level. she’s a climate advisor to the UN secretary general and a research scholar at the NYU School of Law, working to bridge the environmental and human rights sector with the youth climate movement. She’s also an incredible poet. 

There are many layers to this storytelling session. We dig into: the role of ego on climate change, how the war on terror has hurt the planet, the harmful assumptions of being and “activist,” personality cults, and of course how climate change is a spiritual issue. 

We recorded this in partnership with our friends at citizenM Bowery; overlooking the hustle and bustle of the Lower East Side from the iconic rooftop at cloudM. 

Oh and stick around because our post interview conversation went even deeper with the role of spirituality and religion in climate change so I recorded some on my phone to share with y’all. :)

Welcome to this episode of Podcast Noor. 

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

All right. Adam. 3, 2, 1. Wow, we're here. So good to have you both. Well, first I kind of want to, actually, I'll start with the beginning. Let's start, sorry. Sound music. Sound music. Were you doing it?

Sophia (00:00:25):

Yeah. No, it just, it popped into my head. I couldn't help it.

Noor (00:00:27):

Oh, I'm so happy to be here with you, Sophia. And you Ayisha. And do you say Aisha or Isha?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:34):

I, it's Aisha with the ain, but people can't pronounce it

Noor (00:00:38):

but I can pronounce it

(00:00:39):

So you can pronounce it.

Noor (00:00:40):

So how do you prefer?

Ayisha: (00:00:41):

With the ain, please.

(00:00:42):

Ayisha?

Noor Tagouri (00:00:43):

Ayisha.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:44):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:00:48):

That was my great-grandmother's name as well.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:50):

Nice.

Sophia Li (00:00:51):

Does it mean anything?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:00:55):

I think it means one who lives. Or something like that.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:59):

Oh yeah. Because I

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01:00):

Ayish

Noor Tagouri (00:01:01):

Ayish is like alive. Wow. I love it. One who lives.

Sophia (00:01:04):

Yeah. Because technically my name Sophia is Muslim.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01:07):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:07):

Sophia. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, well, it's funny that you say that because I was also telling Adam that your name is also Fay.

Sophia (00:01:16):

Yes, it's true. Yes.

Noor (00:01:17):

And he was like, what does Fay mean? So what does Fay mean?

Sophia (00:01:21):

Fay is a nickname. It was a nickname given to me by my older sister, because we had a cousin named [inaudible]. But also, if you pronounce my name in Chinese, Sophia, it'd be like Sofaya. Fay. But my real Chinese name, my middle name that's on my password and birth certificate is [inaudible]. And there's this expression in Chinese called [inaudible], which means the deepest, most wise form of love. And Sophia, it could be Greek, it could be Muslim, it could be Turkish, and it also meets the wisdom. And then Noor means

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:01):

Light.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:04):

Tata. I love it. I love that we're starting out with our names. I feel like our names are always a great place for us to start when it comes to getting to know ourselves. And in the spirit of getting to know ourselves. I'm saying this with a little smirk on my face because I feel like I ask you this almost every, at least once a week, Sophia and Ayisha for the first time. How is your heart doing today?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:34):

I'm very content. I woke up calm and I was thinking a lot. So this month has been really interesting for me personally. One day I woke up and things were blowing up, so it's been a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:53):

Can you tell us why.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:02:56):

So I made it to the cover of Times Magazine, which that was crazy.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:03):

You're just casually shrug this point to be the cover.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:05):

No, I didn't. It was a surprise. I actually had gotten a nose ring earlier that month and it was just healing. I wake up because my phone's blowing up and this bracelet got stuck with the nose ring and I ripped yanked it out because I was like, no way.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:22):

You yanked out your nose ring?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:23):

Out of excitement. Excitement,

Noor Tagouri (00:03:25):

Fun. Wow. Yeah. So what did they tell you? They were just like, Hey, it's a feature.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:03:30):

They were like, yeah, it was a feature. But then I went to the shoot and it was a really elaborative shoot. So I am, I'm somebody who doesn't talk about things until after they happen. Yeah. Because I don't want to get ain, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just like, I wait for it to happen. And then I'm like, that was, yeah, I didn't know about it. And then other than that, I was just selected to be one of the youth advisors to the UN general secretary. So there's seven of us. And that has Congratulations. Thank you. So that Antonio, Antonio Gutierrez. And that's just been a lot of work. So I've, past month I've just been banging, bang, banging, banging, work. And today it was the first day I didn't have anything on my schedule. So I woke up really calm.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:17):

Except for this.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:04:18):

Except for this.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:19):

We're recording this on a Saturday morning.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:04:20):

This feels really chill. Doesn't feel like work. Okay, come. Okay.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:23):

Thank God I'm so happy because I'm so honored that you're here. I'm so honored that you're here. Sophia, how is your heart doing today?

Sophia (00:04:32):

I'm so grateful to be here. I would take any opportunity to talk to you and you both, especially in this space, my heart is grounded. Yeah. I think I am at this beautiful transition of just embracing present and as cliche or trivial as it sounds, I'm reading a New Earth as rereading it. And it's just all about understanding ego and when it shows up and all understanding about presence and how it shows up. And I think it's actually, it came at the perfect timing because in the climate space, I'm not fully in it as maybe Ayisha is, but there's a lot of ego, surprisingly. And I think that was a big surprise for me.

Noor (00:05:18):

So yeah, we, you brought that up as a concern during fashion week and it felt like it was a little bit jarring for you, I feel like, because you have an interesting story of even how you got into the climate space. And so it's not the place I thought we were going to start. But I would love to know, I think what role ego does play in saving our planet or distracting us from doing so?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:05:50):

Me again. Okay. I think it can be a really big hindrance, especially when we're dealing with a crisis of such magnitude with there at the one end, you need an immense amount of love and you need an immense amount of nourishment and nurture. But then there's evil and it is on a path of destruction. And so to combat that evil one has to create a sort of defense, I suppose. And by evil I mean war, murder, assassinations. And it creates a kind of anger. And if that anger isn't channeled or, or nurtured or allowed to then operate in a sense of giving, what can it can do is really, really heen a kind of fight within people that is just angry. And I think that's one of the places where earlier Sophia and I were talking about the youth movement. The youth movement arose at a time where it came from a place of young people saying, future generations, I mean past generations, you have failed us.

(00:07:15):

Which I mean that is a truth in of itself, kind of. Yes. But it became a finger pointing. And with that finger pointing, folks were able to raise to platform and platform and platform. And it's really complicated, especially as somebody like myself who has just been recognized at the highest levels of doing this work. Kind of a paradox for me because my fame or attention, it's coming at the expense of the utter destruction of the planet. So is it really something that should be celebrated and glorified? I know not, but it is what is happening. And that is also where ego is coming in because we are curating, and by I mean both internally, externally, people who are looking for something to hold onto for hope, curating profits, and sometimes they're false prophets in the hope that this will save us. And I think that is where ego can just, just get so vague.

(00:08:27):

And on names and stuff we were talking about earlier in my culture and my tradition, children aren't given names until they develop a personality. Because you are not your name, you are called by your name. And so what do you call them before that's given? That's just, that's your baby. So until they show a personality or something, and the name is not given by the mother actually, or a mother in the sense of the name is not immediately in the hands of the parents, we oftentimes select a spiritual caretaker of the person as they're growing and then they give them the name. I'm bringing this up because in many tribal, native, first people's cultures protecting the environment or doing this work. And it is, it's so mainstream now. It is literally the rent you pay to live on planet earth. And it's humbling. It doesn't, it's not supposed to build your ego. And you also operate in the constant understanding that you are temporary, that you come, the earth serves, you serve it, and then you, you're dust and it's okay to be transient. It's okay to leave, it's okay. But our culture wants, individuals wants these heroes, these personality cults that would outlive everything. And that is another huge part about where the ego is just flourishing.

Sophia Li (00:10:12):

So I think to make it a little bit tangible, because oftentimes in the climate space, we use these very holistic, vague, sometimes buzzwordy terms. And I just want to say, because we're going to get a little bit spiritual here, we always get spiritual in our conversations. Yeah, yeah. Ego is directly profit. Ego is directly, has caused the systems that have created the climate crisis. And if you think about it, ego, if we look at colonialism, that is ego. Whenever you fear superior or inferior to anyone, that is ego. So when you have entire collective societies feeling superior, a global north developed countries superior than developing countries or global south, that breeds colonialism, that breeds waste colonialism, that breeds capitalism, that breeds so many of these different systems that have been causing the climate crisis. So ego, whenever there's war, that's also a form of ego.

(00:11:15):

Whenever there's, it's a cycle of ego and trauma. And that is truly what's has entirely is the basis of the climate crisis. You could boil it down literally to just ego, not for even from just an individual level, but a collected ego as well. A collected ego of my nation is better than this. I deserve this. I deserve to live in a world that has clean air and clean water, but at the expense of others. And it's okay as long as I deserve it, my community to service it my nation. So it's not to simplify it, but everything in this space can be boiled down to ego. And that's why I guess I'm, I'm discovering this now, but when I first enter this space, I'm like, oh, this space obviously wouldn't touch ego as much. Cause it's disrupting these systems that have been created off a hierarchy of superiority or inferiority.

(00:12:19):

And capitalism. And capitalism and coming from the fashion industry, you're like, oh, of course fashion industry would have ego. So I guess I enter this space a little naive, like, oh, ego wouldn't exist here. Not to that extreme, but actually it, it also mimics the patterns that entirely created the climate crisis too. It mimics hierarchy. It's also, maybe it's not anyone's fault, but it's all we know. It's like,

Noor (00:12:49):

Which makes it harder to pinpoint actually. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that we're not interesting. It's just meant to be how this conversation started. Because yesterday when I saw you Sophia, I was asking you, what is it on your heart that you feel like you would want to talk about in this conversation? Because I feel like when it comes to climate, there's so many, at least for me, as someone who is not deep into the climate space as you all are, I just end up feeling like I'm hearing the same things over and over and over again.

(00:13:23):

But there's this disconnect. We get desensitized to the lines that we hear over and over again. I feel this way when it comes to conversations around diversity and representation. And this is off the heels of what I was saying to you yesterday as well, which is that I really feel like when we get in this habit of hearing words or hearing statements or hearing promises or hearing messages that we no longer feel in our bodies, then where we need to go is the focus on actual stories and personal stories of how did we get here? How have you seen directly how this has impacted you? And both of you have really powerful, intimate stories of how you entered the climate space. So I would love for you both to share. And I also don't know if you've ever really shared that story, the story of the plane and that person.

(00:14:20):

Have you ever shared that and are you comfortable sharing a bit about it?

Sophia (00:14:24):

Yeah, yeah. Okay. For sure. Yeah.

Noor (00:14:26):

Just because to me, when I think about when everything really shifted for you, it felt like, it seemed like it was from this experience. Am I right or wrong?

Sophia (00:14:34):

Yeah. I think it was like, yeah, a pecking order of. Signs leading me to. Yeah.

AD BREAK - REP FULL

Noor (00:14:40):

So I would love for us to start from that place of at the inner stories and how we got here and then move from that space. Because I do feel like I've, and I remember both of you as spiritual beings lead with maybe not even vocalizing your spirituality, but it is very clear that you recognize that if we are to save our planet, we have to feel spiritually connected to the earth. And so Ayisha, can we start with you if you want to share a little bit about your entry point into this space?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:15:18):

Yeah. It's the most difficult question I often am asked because I don't have one, and mine is a little different from, so I was raised with a truly entrenched pivotal belief of responsibility. And that happened because of the class status that I have in Pakistan. My family has, it's because of the ethnic identity that we have. It's also because when you are poor in one of the poorest countries in the world, I mean recycling is not, not, it doesn't. But actually I started approaching this work as from the periphery of watching War and Conflict and being really fundamentally frustrated that the climate crisis solving, it was on the tongue of everybody around me, but nobody wanted to discuss, dissect, or even acknowledge the war on terror that we reaped in the Middle East. And then ostensibly caused havoc in the rest of the world when, see again, this is from something that my elders have taught me. When you commit violence to that extent, it has consequences. And the climate crisis as much as it is a result of capitalism as much as is a result of colonialism, it is also the result of the global north obliterating, the world.

(00:17:11):

Until it came knocking on your own door. So you're going to go and murder bomb communities. Do you not think the cries of the mothers in that land, the cries of the children in that land? The land itself is not angry with you. It's so frustrated, and I'm talking from a more spiritual perspective, but one third of the world's crude oil comes from the Middle East. The United States military has the biggest carbon footprint on the, in terms of militaries. In fact, it is one of the biggest polluters on planet earth. The planes that fly over to drop drones, they use oil, they get it at a cheaper discounted rate. And in this conversation about my future, our future children's future, the other thing that dawned upon me was, while this was all happening, it was almost as if the children of the global south, from Middle East to Africa to Asia, they were never really fundamentally thought to.

(00:18:29):

They were never truly thought rightful recipients of futures. We did not care. But it took, and I say this as somebody who is friends with these people that I work really closely, but I think this shows more about the world we live in than the young activists. It took a kid from the global north for the hearts of the global north to wake up because they could see their child in her eyes, but they couldn't see us in their children's eyes. And that is one of the scariest parts of all of this. And this is why I got involved because nobody was talking about protecting our innocence, our futures, or acknowledging the past of the havoc that was raped on Pakistan, on Iraq, on Afghanistan for the fort oil.

Noor Tagouri (00:19:30):

How old were you and was there a pivotal moment when you realized that the adults were failing you and that you needed to do something about it?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:19:44):

So I never truly grew up with that sentiment. And I don't hold that sentiment because my parents didn't fail me. Neither did my grandparents neither. They did their utter best. And that's another thing that doesn't resonate with me. I cannot point my finger to them. So

(00:20:11):

When we think of adults that failed us, there's very particular adults in very particular spaces of power who had the choice of choosing so alternative, and they chose destruction. And when I realized that I wasn't angry at my family or my parents, of course I was mourning grief because there's fast effects of war and then there's a slow onset effects of war. And the slow onset of effects of war cause you to lose culture. They cause you to lose song. They cause you to lose color in your dressing because it identity. Because now it is no longer safe for my mom to walk around in our village wearing the clothes that she would've worn 2015 year, 50 year, 15 years ago. Because it's dangerous, because fundamentalism has wreaked havoc in that community. The house that I grew up in Pakistan, we didn't have a door actually, we had a curtain and all the village, all the houses in our village have curtains. After 2013, we put locks and doors. That's how I saw it. So it wasn't, adults failed us. The climate crisis was very much purposefully done. And I think we need to acknowledge and understand that before we can get to offering solutions, we cannot keep giving the pioneers of war, the pioneers of destruction, the benefit of the doubt.

Noor Tagouri (00:22:05):

Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for the correction and the reframe and for honoring the adults who made you are today.

(00:22:18):

Sophia?

Sophia (00:22:18):

Well, what Ayisha just said, just to remind me of one of my favorite indigenous quotes, which is we don't inherit this land from our parents who borrow it from our children. And I think that a lot of communities actually have always treated the land as sacred, like your family, but those aren't the families that are usually centered. And those ideologies, which is why it's framed as these when we're pointing fingers and these adults failed us. It's very much also adults from a very specific geographic location class. And I think power structure, power structure. So my favorite question in this space is what is your climate story?

(00:23:18):

Everyone has a climate story. Yeah. I'm like, what is your climate story? And I'm like, when did you first have your wonder of awe moment with nature when you were growing up, what were you obsessed with as a kid? Did you collect rocks? Were you obsessed with water? What was it? Because we all had that as kids and a lot of times people were like, oh, I grew up in the city. I don't have a climate story. And I'm like, yeah, but we ourselves, we are nature any, that separation again is part of this. It goes on to this identity of this separation is what causes a lot of this disorientation of humans are the virus. Humans are not the virus, the systems are the viruses.

(00:24:03):

So I love asking people what their climate story is. And actually that's one of the reasons that I don't think I really understood why I was being drawn towards the space, why I identify with this space so much until I could iterate and draw and connect all the dots of my own climate story. And Ayisha is saying it's not just one thing. It's like there's so many multi-dimensional things happening in our lives that literally lead us to how we understand ourselves, how we see ourselves. And usually when you're growing up, and we talk about this a lot, is how you see yourself is how society sees you. So you only see yourself through the lens of society and then you peel that back and you realize that's not the case. And so my own climate story is that I didn't realize this until my adulthood, but my grandparents from my father's side are deep Buddhist and my great-grandfather was a Buddhist leader in China, and they practiced Buddhism illegally during the culture revolution and during the communist revolution when, yeah, also don't, it just Buddhism wasn't allowed any other religion.

(00:25:09):

And so then growing up with my father, who, my parents who were both scientists, mathematicians, they're very factual based, but they're also very spiritual people without even realizing because of their parents. And then living in China for a few years when I was younger, going back every summer, I would stay with my grandparents. And they also lived in a village. They didn't have proper toilets or proper living rooms. It was just like you're just kind of all hanging out outside the norm and then later on in life. So always this, one of the fundamental learnings of Buddhism is that you have the symbiosis with all living things, humanity, flora, fauna, everything. So that was always very ingrained. And then also I think another level and layer is that my parents are immigrants. And I think immigrant parents, sustainability is the norm. Sustainability is the necessity.

(00:26:09):

Sustainability isn't something you buy into. It's not about mason jars and bamboo toothbrushes. That is not sustainability. Sustainability is this understanding of having deep gratitude and intention for everything you use, knowing that everything, every action has a reaction. Knowing that nothing comes at the expense of others. That was very deeply ingraining. So that was another layer. There were so many other, there's macro layers and micro layers, and those are some of the macro layers for me and fundamentals. So micro layers was that when I was in middle school, when I was in elementary school, I lived in Memphis, Tennessee. Al Gore was vice president then, and I would be obsessed with Al Gore. And then he came out there and give me a truth and I was obsessed with it. And give me a truth. So I'm saying all of these details to have everyone listening, think about kind of macro levels that have contributed to their identity and micro levels that have all led you to how you view the world.

(00:27:13):

So I think the plain story that you mentioned before is that the universe will very much give you signs if you're not on the right path of your highest alignment, I believe. And if you're not listening to the signs, the universe will probably slap you across the face. It would be very obvious. And my slap across the face was that I was definitely have outgrown a role, a position. I was working at Vogue Magazine at the time and loved it, learned a lot, very high highs, very low lows. And I was having health problems, I was having anxiety attacks, and it was obviously not working, but I was still remaining there and trying to make it work. And the slap in the face was that I was on a plane that was from New York to San Francisco for my older sister sweating. I was the maid of honor.

(00:28:11):

And when the plane took off, the left engine caught on fire and we had to emergency land and evacuate, slide down the chutes. And it was that whole moment and the entire time, instead of being like, oh, okay, this might be it, it was kind of like, wait, I can't believe that this is going to be it, and I'm still at this job. There's just so much more. And I think almost every single person on that plane, not because luckily everyone was fine, even the dogs on the plane, it was kind of a wake up call. It's like, if you're not where you want to be in life, like pivot, readjust. So all to say, my entrance into climate was very just curvy and ups and downs. And I still don't think that I'm fully in the climate space. But I love this space so much.

(00:29:13):

I love the people so much.

Noor  (00:29:15):

I feel like you are

Ayisha (00:29:16):

You are, what are you talking about?

Sophia (00:29:17):

I think because I think, okay, one, I think that we were just starting with our names. There's deep meaning to words. And I think oftentimes in this space, we throw war around words super casually or other people do. Society does. So everyone just be like, you're an activist, you're an activist, Noor you're an activist. Ayisha, you're definitely an activist. And I'm like, oh, there's such nuance between an activism. And I was like, I'm an advocate, I'm was a journalist and I still am. And I tell stories and I'm an advocate. But even within activism, there is such weight that comes with different terms. Are you a land defender? Are you organizer? Do you do mutual aid? Are you working at a non-profit? Like does everyone who work at environmental are they activists? Because a lot of environmental non-profits are actually, they have completely the hierarchical student

Sophia Li (00:30:14):

Systems

(00:30:15):

At play of the climate crisis. So I think I try to move very intentionally through this space because, so I don't, in respect to the people really doing the work that I have so much incredible respect for yourself, Ayisha and just people. And some of the people who are doing the best, most incredible work. They don't even have a social following. You will never hear their name. And Ayisha was saying one of the problems and one of the things that we're coming at battles with right now is that there has been a cult of personality that has developed, and that doesn't necessarily serve the climate movement at large. There's been a lot of cult personalities. We know a lot of their names. It started with the Greta's of the world and now incredible because it's like, okay, we can finally recognize these people, especially they're from the group of south or they're marginalized, but it's almost become a individual movement instead of collective movement.

(00:31:17):

There are people like Ayisha continuously reminds us of the collective movement, but then there are some people who are like, yeah, I'm going to run with this and really be on this cult personality pedestal. And then other youth is like, Ooh, that's a job, that's a career. That's not, I'm not just an influencer. I'm an influencer for good. And I could be that if it beats back into ego. And then this past New York climate week, I met so many youth who had just graduated from college and they all wanted to be climate influencers. And I'm like, what does that mean? That's kind of to go full circle.

AD BREAK - AYS CHANNEL

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:31:53):

That's kind of like, if I may riff off of that, yes, I thought about this deeply, probably intellectualized it a little bit, but it's dangerous for multiple contexts. And I don't even blame the young people who are graduating out of college who want to be that. But rather for some reason, especially when we are observing freedom movements, mass movements from the women's rights to civil rights in this country to the salt march in India, our idea of an activist or somebody who really, really gives their all is a Gandhi, an M L K, a Rosa Parks.

(00:32:41):

And especially around young people who are from the global south, we have such different expectations. So you society wants martyr figures who have nothing, who Gandhi have slippers and a shawl. And for a black brown activist or a person of color alignment to that lack of materialism is the only way that you are allowed to have integrity. And I'll further unpack that. So oftentimes when one observes patriarchy, the idea that a woman is either a Madonna or a whore is a binary that we look at. I think for activists, you are either a Jesus like personality or you're politician, celebrity personality. And there's no in between. And it creates really, really big problems because we want people to be so down to earth that they have utterly nothing and they are suffering. And then we consume that trauma porn and then we run with it. And that is environmentalism, that is activism, that is the epitome.

(00:34:15):

And that personality is more like a Jesus figure. And everybody will point at you and tell you your fault if you don't align with that. And there's the aesthetics of activism as well. And the space is heavily dominated by women, but you can't be fully feminine or even you're sexualized. And then you're said you're not an activist. And I can point to so many different examples of that. And Sophia, you're looking at me and I want to say names, but maybe this is a conversation for another time and I can share with you how this is unfolding and how dangerous it is to young women. And then on the other end, we want our politicians, we want somebody that is Michelle Obama.

(00:35:15):

I'm, I'm trying to think of somebody who we give moral integrity to that is in a space of political power. And that has really, really bad consequences on the people that are operating in this space because society wants them to operate in this binary. And I've it personally, if you, she for example, had nail polish on a picture and somebody was like, I bet that nail polish is not sustainable. I had mascara on. And people were like, why do you have mascara on? Where did you get that from? Or every little thing you do is poked and prodded because you are supposed to be such a Jesus figure that you have nothing. Or on the other opposite, if you're getting a lot of political applause, if you're getting a lot of social applause, if you're getting a lot of attention within the mechanisms of capitalism, you're expected to take on office, you're expected to take on this public servant personality.

(00:36:29):

And the thing is, this whole rant that I'm saying this binary is a false binary because everybody can be and should be an environmental activist in their space. We need scientists who care about the environment. We need business folks who care about the environment. We need the fashion industry to care about the environment. We need chefs to care about the environment and to the point where it becomes such part of our habits that it is an activism like noun, like this glorified thing. But it is part of our lifestyle. And there are communities who live like that. It takes living outside of that community to verbalize it, articulate it, put a title on it, and then say this is a thing. This is a concept if you're doing it. And Sophia, you were talking about earlier, sustainability isn't this thing that it, it's like walking. You're not thinking about the steps that you're taking. You're just doing it because you have to. And in that you're creating an environment that appreciates everything that you take in with the knowledge that you need to give back.

Sophia Li (00:37:40):

Yes. Can I just say that this false binary plays out in so many different tropes in the climate space. So there'd be false binary of who we're putting on a pedestal. There'd be a false binary of even with products, they're either sustainable or they're not. Or there's a false binary of who can be involved in the movement itself. Either has to be youth or the older generations, there's a binary. These binaries will continuously play out. There's a binary of it's like I'm either an environmental activist or I'm not. And it's like this, we are losing the spectrum, the nuance in every single conversation when it comes to climate. And that's actually something that societally we need to transcend from. It's happened with other movements, the L G B Q T rights movement. It's like you're either straight or you're gay. Now we realize it's such a spectrum.

(00:38:39):

You are either a racist or you're not. And with so many of the global racial reckoning, we know that these aren't binaries. And in the climate space, we are now being asked for society to transcend that binary lens as well to embrace the nuance. And my last thing I just wanted to mention was that sustainability is often presented to us as something we need to buy into or we need to work towards or we need to be part of by earning it. But sustainability is our birthright. And Aisha was saying it's walking. You don't think about it. Sustainability is our birthright and there's a lot of gatekeeping around it. And anything that is our birthright, like joy and love, there's gatekeeping around that too. Think about love Valentine's Day or Hollywood movies or you think about joy, you think you need to buy a vacation or to experience joys.

(00:39:40):

Any birthright, emotion value is gate keep. And I think that's the thing we're trying to help people understand right now is sustainability was always there. It was always within us. And that's always accessible.

Noor (00:39:53):

It's so interesting too because the things that you're listing out are things that are innate. They're things that are free. They're things that are literally inside of us. And it's like how have these stories tricked us into believing that they don't belong to us, that they are, they only exist outside of us. And that because it's like if you recognize, if you find out that love and joy and sustainability has been inside of you all along and how to wield that power, then what is the power that is unleashed

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:40:27):

Referring to something right now that I don't remember exactly who the author is, but when that power is unleashed, but also when you realize that your existence is dependent on the water, on air quality, on what you eat, of course you're going to defend it. And in communities where you rely on the river itself to get your drinking water in communities where you rely on not nature to get your meal, to get your clothes, to get your medicine, of course you're going to defend it. Because I promise you, if tomorrow the faucets in New York City stop working and people don't get clean water, they will fight for it. And it's so odd that we put communities that are saying that this is our right on this novel, far away indigenous, like a waste part of the world when in fact just like love and joy and sustainability is a birthright.

(00:41:40):

So is clean air, clean water, access to food and shelter. And that is all at risk. And that's where actually the human rights argument comes into climate and it's become such a important part. And the climate lawyers and the environmental litigation field has been, took a long time for them to catch up. But it's been really important because these are human rights and they are being violated right now by nation states, by corporations, by people that are actively putting what the air that you are going to breathe in the water you will drink and making it poison. It's being poisoned. And so there's both this work that I do and so many of us who are in this space, we depend on this utter love for the planet and for its people to keep going. And when you love something so much, you fight for it. And that's where the fight comes in. And that's where the defending of the water, the land and how it's used and resources and consumption and clothing all comes in because it's worth the fight. It's worth saving.

Noor Tagouri (00:43:00):

Can you define land defender and water defender and tell us how it is possible for everyone to be those things?

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:43:12):

Actually, I can't define it. I think for different N nations it is different and that title is earned and it's given to you and you are made of a community's water protector or land protector. But it's not something you throw around either. Because land defense, especially in a world that property rights has created borders, it's created nation states. Being a land defender comes with standing up to military. In so many parts of the world, it means that people will try to steal the very thing that your ancestors' blood is merged with. But how can we all become land defenders and water protectors in our individual capacity? We do have that opportunity and we do have that responsibility. And to be a land defender, I think from the very small means planting seeds, everybody, me, what is one individual action that people can take to protect the environment?

(00:44:19):

And I'm like, plant a seed, touch the soil, touch some grass folks. And then other than that, stand in solidarity with the people. If you're in a area where land is occupied, stand in solidarity with them when they're trying to get that land back, there is a movement to try to get Lenape land back. There are

Noor (00:44:44):

Which is the land that we're on right now

Ayisha (00:44:45):

We're on right now. And you can support that land defense. There is a movement and there and our water, believe it or not, especially in Canada, a lot of the water is owned by corporations. It's owned by your Nestles, it's owned by other folks and it's not given acc. It's not, it's people don't have access to the water. And how do you get involved in water protection is you allow the commons, the waters to be managed by people.

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Noor Tagouri (00:45:18):

Thank you so much for sharing that. I often think about how, or Adam and I actually talk about this all the time, he'll say things like the earth will be fine without us. It's humanity that is on its way to extinct extinction if we continue these practices, this lifestyle because the earth in your words, Sophia has gone through so many deaths and rebirths and it will with or without us. And so I often think about that framing of the story. How do we get people to care? And it's it, and the answer that I think about is by getting them to care about themselves and how people, do we actually care about ourselves? Do we think, do we love ourselves? Do we think about our ge, the generations to come from our own lineage? And so how do you both meditate on that? And then a little sub-question to that is what role does art play in all of this?

Sophia (00:46:35):

Well, I would takye that one step further. I don't even think we need to love ourselves in order to move the movement forward or care ourselves. I think a lot of times that question is asked all the time, what's the one thing I could do to impact the environment? And I love your answer playing to the seed. I always say look within yourself and see what is disharmonious from within. If we're not, like our love for ourselves will be an evolution of ongoing process and there'll be ebbs and flows throughout the days. But the harmony within ourselves, that deep rooted foundation, if we're so in disharmony within our own bodies, our minds, our spirits, our souls, of course we're going to be disharmonious in the world. The entire reality, our nature, the state of it is a projection of, it's the, it's a temperature check mirroring exactly the human psyche of where we are, 

Noor: Especially since our actual physical bodies are also a part of nature.

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:47:46):

And when the water is dirty, it shows up. People get sick. When the air is dirty, it shows up. People have asthma. Everything we're doing to planet and earth we're doing to our own bodies.

Sophia Li (00:47:58):

And I would even say everything we're doing to each other, we do to planet earth. And then the water is dirty and the air is polluted because our minds and spirits are polluted and trauma filled and dirty and we haven't done the healing from within. So then we would do it to each other. So then that means we do it to nature. It's all very interconnected. And I think a lot of times people are like, well, so let's actually have some statistics because I think a lot of people think that we're trying to fight the climate deniers of the world, but actually climate deniers in the US is less than 10%. And the US has the highest percentage of climate deniers. So to even try to touch these 7% of Americans, it's actually not worth our time. 70% of Americans, the majority of Americans are not climate deniers, but they're climate delays according to Yale's school of climate change. They, there's mis studies that have shown that people know that climate science is real. They don't deny that, but they delay it. They're like, we have lives to live. I have food to put on the table. I have a job. I have kids to feed. I, they cannot process it because it's almost too much to process.

(00:49:27):

And then I always compare moving through the climate crisis is moving through the grief cycle. So we've never been taught how to collectively grief. And right now we are going through a massive collective grieving cycle because we're going through the sixth mass extinction of our timeline. And if you've ever lost a loved one, you know that it's not like you forget that you lost a parent or a sibling or a loved one. You just have a acceptance with it. You live with that grief and it's ongoing. It's deeply part of your soul now. And just like that, there's seven emotions and stages that you go through in the grief cycle. And that's the same with the climate crisis. We have to work through these emotions and stages and cycles in order to come to this level of acceptance. And Ayisha was like, why wouldn't you defend something you love so much? And it's like a lot of us came into this space through fear, a lot of the Greta's of the world. It's like our world is on fire. It's a climate emergency. And whenever anything is emergency, your first reaction is fear, which we enter through fear, but we haven't transcended collectively past fear yet. So it's like what do we do with that fear? And

(00:50:43):

During, I think the pandemic is a good analogy because when Covid first started, there was a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of fears, unknowns. We went into lockdown, we started in fear and we were fighting each other for toilet paper because we were like, I just need to survive and I need toilet paper. And then we transcended that fear into mutual aid, into love and gratitude for our first responders into organizing into depending on the people into community fridges and all of this. We transcended into emotions that were actually sustainable for our communities. We depended on ourselves. And we haven't done that with the climate crisis as a whole. Climate crisis is harder because it's way more to grapple and grasp and understand, but we need collective grieving. And to move through this stage cycle,

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:51:37):

I have first a response to what you were saying, Sophia, people came into this space in fear. And I would say it was a strategic and probably necessary because one, fear sells, and two, it was needed by two to push political will. Political will, because the native communities for so long, see, before the word climate crisis was even mainstream or climate activism was mainstream. People were doing it for hundreds of years and they were investing in love and investing in each other. But it wasn't sexy, it wasn't selling. So I, looking back in retrospect, it was maybe one, it was a way to get inside the doors, but now we really need to think intentionally about how we propagate our work. But to what you said earlier about the planet will do fine without us, I think that's also a misnomer that we are told to believe. So we have apathy

(00:52:47):

And it, it comes more from the global north than it does from the global south because no, the planet needs us actually just squirrels pick up nuts that they eat and then they leave the seed behind that grows trees. Humans are essential to keeping biodiversity alive. Humans are essential to keeping nature alive. When you understand the variety of different fruits and vegetables, you can grow multiple crops. You're not just led left with one version of an apple or one version of an orange or one version of a lentil. And then in that developing and propagating the seeds and the soil, you can create ecosystems and food systems that allow nutrients. And the agricultural crisis is a mass part of the climate crisis, as is a biodiversity crisis. So a country like mine, after it goes through flooding, it has an economic collapse. The economic collapse could have been subdued a little had.

(00:53:54):

We had multiple versions of grain, multiple versions of tomatoes, multiple seeds that could grow in different environments, but we didn't. But it's mono culture and it's happening in India. That's what's happening in China, that's what's happening in Pakistan. It's happening in the United States as well. So actually the planet needs us. And that's where the responsibility comes into it too, because when you're told you're insignificant, then you're like, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter, but it needs to be a shift of like, no, you're not insignificant. In fact, this is something that my elders taught me. And Sophia, you were mentioning it earlier too. The planet has a symbiotic relationship with humans. Just like in the Galapagos Islands. There's different finches that grow with different beaks. It as a result of being in a very specific habitat, humans evolve for their very specific habitats. They are meant to be caretakers of those habitats.

(00:54:55):

In fact, that's another layer I'll add to this meta conversation. Mass migration and the refugee crisis is expanding because of the climate crisis. In fact, this last year, 2022, we had more refugees in the world due to climate, due to natural disasters than we ever had of war. So when humans are removed from their natural habitats, not only do they feel the pain, the land suffers as well. It is lost, it's guardian, it's lost its harbors in air. A, and I'll throw in another thing, Palestine, it's undergoing an occupation right now. In that process, the olive trees are being destroyed. The variety of olive trees are being destroyed. The environment has experienced a loss, not just from the obvious war, but also formerly a hundred years ago, people were taking care of those trees, they were propagating them, the environment was thriving, the air quality was better, the soil quality was better, the food was more nutritious. So this really is a meta crisis of so many different layers. And we have a responsibility to it. And we have a responsibility to the kids that come after us. But we belong here. We belong on planet earth. There's no other planet that has this life. This is in fact our home. And it's made for us and it lives within us, and we come from it.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:33):

Thank you so much. Thank you for schooling me

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:56:36):

No,

Noor Tagouri (00:56:37):

I am. And it is actually such an honor to learn from you and to learn from yourself. And I come to this conversation as somebody who literally, sincerely asks these questions. Cause I feel them for myself too. And I'm learning so much about reframing the story for my own involvement in making this. And I think as somebody who is currently really in the trenches of my own spiritual journey, which is what I has been taking up a lot of my time and my energy right now, and in the best of ways as a human experience welcomes learning more and more how the climate journey is spiritual, is a spiritual one. And that we're not here to, I think, see the results of all the seeds that we plant, but we still have to plant them in that spirit. I would love to know what is a question that you both are asking yourselves right now?

(00:58:01):

Sophia, my journalist sister.

Sophia (00:58:07):

A question I'm asking myself is, can we collectively grieve without a common enemy? So I think that at least in American society, the times that we have been able to collectively grieve. If you look at nine 11, we came together bipartisan, but there had to be a common enemy. You talk about this a lot during Covid. We came together, but there had to be a common enemy. That was China. I was in China during when they first went into lockdown. So it's China. And so with the climate crisis, can we collectively grieve without pointing the finger at anyone at another society, without saying it's your fault, without bringing the ego in of superiority and just taking responsibility and moving through it ourselves. That's a question I'm asking ourselves. Who is going to be the next common enemy? And can we do it without one?

Noor (00:59:09):

Yeah. Are we, because we are smart enough to

(00:59:12):

Yeah, yeah. We have the ability to. Yes. Yes.

Sophia (00:59:14):

And politically and can our politicians, can we, NA media media's a huge role in this. Can we all own that narrative? Yeah. Take responsibility to not pinpoint someone as a comment.

Noor (00:59:24):

Well, I think that also, that kind of comes back to what you were saying about ego in the very beginning of this and the role that ego plays in all in the climate crisis. And almost sometimes I find myself asking, how did it get so bad so fast? How did we get to this place where it seems, it feels like there's just so much evil has been done. How did we get to this place? And I feel like because ego is consuming or can be easily manipulated or can even trick ourselves, can convince people in power that they are doing the right thing, even though their definition of the right thing for themselves becomes so limiting and potentially harmful. So all that Sam sitting with, I appreciate you presenting that question because that's feels like a continuation of the bigger question of why are we where we're at right now?

(01:00:32):

Ayisha. Do you have a question you're asking yourself these days?

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:00:34):

Yeah, it's kind of very personal. I've kind of stumbled into being known. And one question I'm asking myself is how not to recreate a personality cult? How not. And for myself too, because that's protection. I cannot save the planet, let alone people, let alone even a portion. And I don't want anyone else to think that they have to be another me. In fact, we need everyone. And living in America, living in a society that wants personality cults, that wants individuals that they can say, thank you for doing the work. I'm going to keep living my life.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:38):

Ooh, it just gave me chills.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:01:40):

We need less of that. And so that's one question I'm asking myself. And that means for me, I have to be very articulate and intentionally push against it because on the other end, I am so extremely privileged to have it and somebody's listening to my voice. And so how will I use it to do work projects, tangible, measurable outcomes that will help my communities? And yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:02:21):

Can I share something personal with you

(01:02:23):

On that reflection?

(01:02:24):

Cause I can see how that it can mess with you at, because I definitely feel like I came into being a public figure or whatever at a very young age. And when I didn't have a fully developed brain, but I had a lot of passion and I thought I knew exactly what I wanted and that there was such a lack of representation at the time that I felt like the weight of so much on me that I did things or I took on things that, it wasn't for me, but it was always the adults around me would be like, well, who else is going to do this? Who else is going to do this? Well, who else is going to do this? And I honor so much that you're asking this question when you are and how you are. Because sometimes, and this is very, very personal and very spiritual, and I talk about this with Adam a lot, and sometimes I wonder if it you, this responsibility comes on, I'll say, I'll speak personally. It makes me uncomfortable to do this, but I will.

(01:03:38):

But sometimes I'm like, did I get this responsibility? Because I didn't really want that. I really wanted to tell stories, but I never wanted to be the story. And of course, things happen the way that they do. And you have to use the opportunity in the way that that feels best. But it takes time to adjust how you do that. And that's why before we were getting on, before we started recording, I told you my goal in using social media is to get people off social media and to start gathering and to start having people see people as individuals and as human beings who all have their own individual story and who have their own ways of trying to be of service. And I think that I continuously have been coming back to the spirit of service and what it means to be of service to ourselves, to our immediate circles, to the community, and then to the broader message and story.

(01:04:44):

And I think that I see that you are doing that so clearly with Polluters Out and with the Climate University. And just in the way that you're char, I can hear it in your voice, Ayisha, you're not speaking on your own behalf. Okay? You are speaking on behalf of your parents and your grandparents and the elders around you and the land itself. And I can feel the weight and responsibility that you're putting on yourself. It's really big and it's really scary. And sometimes it'll feel like overwhelming because people make it seem like it's all on you, but it's also not. And every single time you use your voice and you speak to these experiences and you share these stories, and you share these concerns and you echo the message of planting a seed, that your words are also the seed and that you're planting them over and over and over again.

(01:05:45):

And that we all got you. Oh God. And they're something I have been thinking about too, as I'm on my own spiritual journey and asking bigger questions around faith and identity and hijab and all this stuff. And I'm just like, it's not living in the same world that I was living in 10 years ago. There are so many people who are doing amazing work now. We've inspired, we've created spaces, we've paved path. It's not all on us individually, but because those seeds have been planted, you almost have to trust that they bloom on their own. And that even though this responsibility has fallen on you and the attention has fallen on you, you will never see even remotely close to the full picture of all of the harvest that exists in your trails. But it exists. It does. And I know that because I've heard Sophia talk about you in this way before too. And

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:06:51):

This is becoming an Ayisha fan fan session

Noor Tagouri (01:06:55):

It's more of it's not Ayisha as an individual though. It's, it's what you represent. It's what you represent. And I love this Maya Angelo quote that I come as one, but I stand as 10,000. And we're talking about the 10,000. And I want you to feel lightness in that because you don't are not one. And we see you as not one. But right now, sometimes you get a little bit more attention and so good. When it's uncomfortable, it's good. Cause it makes you interrogate and interrogate and don't ever get comfortable in it. It's okay to enjoy it. It's okay to have these positive experiences with it, but you don't ever have to get comfortable because, and that's why this whole conversation around climate started with ego. And this is, it's a forever ongoing human test. This ego and our dance with ego. And maybe it's not about vilifying it and making it an enemy, but making it a witness to our process so that when we engage with our own ego, out of curiosity, it's out of asking questions rather than hating it and wanting to rip it out of ourselves and be like, look at how evil you've been.

(01:08:03):

But instead be like, what are you trying to show me? Yeah. What limitations are you trying to show me so that I can create more space to get the work done? Because the space exists. Clean water, air, all of these things that we know when we feel are our right. They exist. Yes, they're possible. Yeah. It's just a matter of us creating the space to be able to attain it. Yeah.

Sophia (01:08:25):

And can I just say Ayisha, that the cult of personality trope is you can tell that you are of service to the movement. Because usually when people have these moments where they're thrust into the spotlight, the next step is like, okay, what am I going to do next? And you're always coming to this conversation of what does the movement need to be next? And that's the difference, is you shouldn't feel shame or guilt. You put in so much work, you've done so much service. So there shouldn't be any other motion except for this is just more momentum to continue my work and this work of everyone.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:09:10):

Yeah. There was the story I was reading earlier and earlier, as in two years ago, but during a time in Rome, when the village ran out of oil for their lamps, what they did was they set to fire bodies to have light And that analogy sometimes feels very much like the personalities cults that we use for any movement, not just climate. We cannot keep setting light to people or setting them on fire for light because we need to, wow, really, really not only harness it, cultivate it, bring it in a way that is beautiful, but not at the expense of people. So even the people that are in these individual personality cults, it's a loss on, it's setting them on fire as well. And that is not sustainable. It's going to come to an end. People are burning out. That is burning out. So I appreciate both of your advice so much as people that I look up to, especially you, Nora, because I think I was 17 when I first heard your name and your story. And Sophia, I know within the community just your name comes and your integrity proceeds your name. But I really appreciate both of your advice because those of us that are in the space, I really think that we also need to create families and systems where 10 years from now, 15 years from now, we're still in community, we're still talking to each other. We have to be the examples of sustainable relationships as well before we can preach it out to the rest of the world. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:16):

Wow. I love that. I love that. So interesting how it comes back to sustainable relationships and sustain our own human sustainability so that we can continue and carry on in the work. And what a beautiful and terrifying story in reference, I've never visualized burning out as it's setting someone on fire and using them as light. And I want to bring this back to the concept, the question of art. I know I show you're a poet and I come from that position as well. Yeah. And it's funny because I like my almost ability to write poetry comes out of a place of desperation

(01:11:57):

When I need it the most.

(01:11:58):

And I wonder how we can use our art as like, can the art be the oil? Can the art be the light? And can that, because the art exists outside of self too. And what is your relationship with poetry and art? How is it giving you the sustainability that you need to continue this work?

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:12:23):

Yeah. Thanks for asking. I also turn to writing out of desperation. One also because everybody in my family, one way or another is an orator. Is a storyteller, although is such a beautiful, beautiful language. It's actually a combination of Arabic and Farsi. So it has so many lovely anecdotes and ways of saying things, but o on art and how art is necessary. There's this beautiful poem, it's called Revolutionary letter number four, and it goes something along the lines of left alone to themselves. People create art, they build. And in an ideal world, I am. And in the future, and this is one of my hopes, if we can get our basic necessity met, the human species can create so much. And on the other hand of what is it at risk, all that we've created from the [inaudible] to the Bibles that we read, to the art that we create, to the things that we write.

(01:13:41):

What if there's nobody on the other end to witness that? How unfortunate, how big of a loss will it be? Because we pass memory down through objects. We pass memory down through art. We pass our spirits down through these things. And human beings, our beauty is in our ability to be observers. Our beauty in our ability to take what we see and imagine and what if there's nobody on the other end to receive that, to see these structures, these buildings in New York City, hundreds of stories tall. What was all this for? And that's why art is so important. It edges a memory. It leaves a document. It shows that we were here and we tried in our little worlds, in the bigger space, from a recipe that you get from your mom to a little gift that somebody gives you to the painting you drew as a kid in fifth grade, we need them just to have a human experience, a beautiful experience. It makes life worth living.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:06):

While you were saying that I was closing my eyes, I was trying to picture what that world would look like. And it was was a sadness that felt different. It was like a sadness that didn't only belong to me. It was a collective sadness. And maybe the potential of that future is the collective enemy. Maybe it's the idea of living in a world where our art isn't witnessed by future generations. Our existence, our trace isn't witnessed. And that feels like something everyone should be able to get by.

Sophia (01:15:42):

Yeah. I think that one of the things that has been robbed of us most right now is this, is that most humans love being futurists. I think any res storyteller, every art creator, they are a futurist in essentially because they're creating and they're building what a different future could look like that they would want to live in.

(01:16:03):

That's why you make art for present and future generations. And it's being robbed of us because also through this climate lens that our future is going to be going to be run by ais and robots and this zoom and gloom where the entire world has burned down, or it's like the day after tomorrow or the last of us. It's like this, that is the future that's being portrayed now. And actually futurism and being futurist was the most fundamental part of being human. And that's actually what united us the most is collectively creating for a better future. And I just think that if we can tap into, we love being futurist. We love that radical imagination. We love creating art because that art is a fiscal representation of our consciousness and subconsciousness and the pinpoint that we are living right now. There's so much to fight for and to love for.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:11):

Yeah. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:17:13):

Thank you both so much. The way that we wrap our conversations is a fill in the blank. So there's this statement, if you really knew me, you would know. You can do one, you can do two, you can do three. You can start.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:35):

I'm very, very clumsy. It's just chaos. Everything's broken,

Noor Tagouri (01:17:43):

But not the earth.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:43):

Not the earth. But yeah, there's like a toothpaste stain on my shirt and my shoes are like, there's a hole in my song. They're just, I'm very,

Noor Tagouri (01:17:52):

You have a scratched retina.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:17:54):

Yeah, I have a scratched retina. My laptop is broken. Oh my God. Yeah. My phone is broken. It's just, it's, yeah. I

Noor Tagouri (01:18:04):

I love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:06):

No problem,

Noor Tagouri (01:18:06):

Sophia. If you really knew me,

Sophia (01:18:10):

Ooh. Okay. If you really knew me, you would know. This isn't my first life.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:18):

Ooh,

Noor Tagouri (01:18:20):

I love that. Wow. That's so beautiful. Thank you both so much for your time, for your wisdom, for your stories, for your questions, for your corrections, for your reframes, for your schooling, and thank you for your service. Appreciate you both. Thank you.

Ayisha Siddiqa (01:18:41):

Thank you, Noor.

POST INTERVIEW BEFORE PHONE RECORDING:

After this interview we continued the conversation on the role of religion and spirituality in the climate crisis. I recorded some of it on my phone because it was just too good. Hope you collect some gems. Thank you so much for listening.

PART 2 (FILE 2):

Ayisha Siddiqa (00:01):

Young people are experiencing more climate anxiety now than before. And the reason why it is more prevalent in the younger generations is because when you are born, you are more closer to life. And the closer you are to life, the closer you are to the emotions of life and the further you get. And so it has to be a conscious, spiritual reevaluation, replenishing of your commitment. And then the other thing is all energy. Energy doesn't disappear. It stays. And there's a lot of loss happening in the biodiversity in the animal kingdom. And that pain of the animals doesn't just dissipate either. The cries of a mother whale after losing her child is not just gone. It reverberates and it stays here. And it appears in humans, in like young people, in children where we're all feeling this anxious, this kind of depression, that our home is in danger. And it's because our animal brethren and our animal family is experiencing massive, massive destruction. And then that's the other thing about reciprocity. It's not just about the seed that you plant and the water you consume. It's also about the pain that you cause, and it's showing up in climate anxiety and the feeling of responsibility and also this pain that the younger generations are in. And that really needs to be acknowledged.

Sophia Li (01:52):

Can I take that one step further? We're also, right now, in the entire timeline of humanity, we feel the least religious than we ever felt on a collective level. And when religion and spirituality is taken off out of the upbringings and foundations of young people don't, they're not also given the tools to reconnect the source. So when we feel this pain, we use source and as a way to release, we use source as a way to, because source can transmute energy and change it into action, change it into love, and to change it in different ways. But if you don't have that tool, if you don't even know that's accessible to have, you're not even accessible to source. And young youth around the world aren't giving these tools anymore, whether from a spiritual, religious, or any sort of lens, then it just stays stagnant. It just stays as a grease film layer on top of human humanity. And also, I feel like that's also the case too, is that we're not giving the right tools anymore from that lens to process.

Ayisha Siddiqa (02:56):

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the other danger of spirituality, religion being used for the destruction of the planet. And people, and it's just, we're

Sophia Li (03:09):

Mimicking the same hierarchical structures.

Noor Tagouri (03:19):

But it feels like for, you

Noor Tagouri (03:22):

Mentioned that Islam was a part of how you got into this because of, what was the verse again?

Ayisha Siddiqa (03:32):

It's like, which one of your Lord's provisions will you deny?

Noor Tagouri (03:35):

That's my favorite surah too. Surah al Rahman. Yeah.

Ayisha Siddiqa (03:39):

And when you take without thought about where it's coming from, when you don't, aren't grateful for everything that you have, you deny the provisions as in it's not refusal, refusal as in denying. You're denying that they were given to you, that they were given as gifts, and you're denying taking care of them.

Noor Tagouri (04:08):

That's also a complete reframe because the way that the chapter goes is that verse is repeated over and over, and every other verse is a list of created creations that were given to the earth. But this is such a beautiful approach to thinking about it, because it's not which of them will you deny? Will you deny the existence of the bees? But will you deny their right to exist by harming them too? Yeah.

Ayisha Siddiqa (04:32):

And every action that we take has a consequence. And you also, just like we were talking about earlier, you never know how much harvest will come out, but you don't know how much damage you can do too. And apathy allows you to not think about it. We don't think about what took for that thing to end up on our supermarket, what took for those clothes to end up on our body in the shop. And that's slow, and it requires deep thinking and there's no money in it. And it's just like it's mental work, but we kind of avoid doing it because we want to do everything else that will give us obvious accolades, tick marks, titles. But no, this is what makes a difference, because frankly, what gifts are we leaving our children? It's a good ancestors question, right? Yeah.

OUTRO: 

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS SOPHIA LI AND AYISHA SIDDIQA. 

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) Franklin Sirmans and Jason Seife on Critique as Collaboration, The Cultural Responsibility of Museums, Becoming Friends with Your Critics, and Colorblindness as an Artist

Franklin Sirmans and Jason Seife on Critique as Collaboration, The Cultural Responsibility of Museums, Becoming Friends with Your Critics, and Colorblindness as an Artist

3, 2, 1...

LIVE from Miami, AYS and Podcast Noor is back with another panel, between an artist and an art critic and curator; and we're here to talk critique as collaboration.

When I asked two previous Podcast Noor guests, both painter Jordan Casteel, and former gallery director Sarah Hoover who I need to sit down with in Miami, they both enthusiastically responded with the same name: Franklin Sirmans.

Franklin Sirmans is an art critic, a writer, a curator - and he's also the *director* of one of the coolest art museums in the country: Miami's Pérez Art Museum, also known as PAMM. And since this storytelling session would be taking place at PAMM, I asked Franklin if he would be down to be in conversation with one of the artists showing at the museum, someone he thinks would be great for our Podcast Noor listeners. He responded without hesitation: Jason Seife. 

Jason Seife is an interdisciplinary Miami-based artist, effortlessly weaving his beloved Cuban and Syrian heritage into the intersection of Fine Arts and Graphic Design. He's worked with some of the largest names in the music business including Kanye West, Pharrell Wiliams, Big Sean, and Nicki Minaj, designing everything from album artwork to jewelry to merchandise. In his newest body of work, titled "Coming to Fruition" Jason references old Persian carpets, centering his Middle Eastern heritage and the intricate details found in mosques and traditional Islamic art.  

Noor Tagouri:

Wow, we made it to Miami. This conversation, this interview is so special. Franklin, we shared with you that one of my best friends, Jordan Casteel, is the one who, when I asked her, I was like, who do I need to talk to you in Miami? You were the name that came to mind. And I just started doing a deep dive into your work and the way that you show up and the way that you are of service to not only the community here, but the art community at large is so beautiful and profound. And so I really love this idea of just having a push and pull between having a conversation with a director, curator, art critic, and the artist himself. And so we love that. So when we asked you who you think would be best for, okay, Jason Seife was what came to mind, and it just felt so perfect. And Jason, you are a Syrian Cuban artist who's based here in Miami who does different mediums, but painting is your forte. And you're actually preparing for a show that's going to be here at the Perez Art Museum in Miami

(02:43):

In May. So we're celebrating that process for you. And so the way we kick off our conversations is by asking, how is your heart? So I want to ask you that first Franklin and then Jason, take over. Sure. Let's get started.

Franklin Sirmans (02:58):

It's strong now is beautiful to be in conversation with you and the breadth of what you talk about as far as your relationship to media and your relationship to his culture is super interesting to me. So immediately when I figured that out, and then the Jordan connection is just too good. So really happy to be here. I mean, Jordan is, we had Jordan here three weeks ago or something like that. And she just brought, when you talk about heart, she brought all of her heart to the experience. And of course I thought of Jason immediately because in many ways, Miami, but in many ways not Miami. So the last place we saw each other was actually at an art fair in Dubai. And knowing the exhibition is coming up, and one of the things that I've been trying to feel my way through, actually the press releases, Jason has this really interesting relationship to the past in terms of where the foundation of the subject matter often comes from in his art, but super in the present in ways that I can't even really articulate because I'm not as versed in web three as I should be, or even just in new technology.

(04:19):

I just made it perfect to be,

Jason Seife (04:21):

Yeah, I mean, right Jason. I mean, I feel you asked me how's my heart? I mean, it feels extra, extra great right now, having this conversation with two people that I am a fan equally. Oops, sorry. Yeah. Two people that I'm equally a fan of, Franklin, we've learned, we've spoken so much, but we haven't sat down in a conversation like this. So I'm excited about that. Nor specifically, I mean, I've been following your work for some time now, so to hear that you're interested in having a conversation with myself in Franklin was such a blessing for me to be able to speak about. More specifically on your question, I think where is my heart? I think it's such a important time right now. I'm in the fourth quarter of this exhibition that I've been working on for well over a year. And I think the heart quite literally is a muscle.

(05:10):

And sometimes we put it through stress. And I think that I've learned through time, one of the things that helps me get through those rougher patches or when I'm feeling kind of high anxiety or stresses, knowing that there will be this phase after where I'll be able to recuperate from this and come back stronger. So I kind of do look at it, quite frankly, a muscle that I'm working out. And whenever I'm going through, whether it's in work or in relationships or in family life or something that I'm going through a rough patch or a patch where I'm kind of high intensity, I keep that. I try to zoom out and look at the bigger picture and understand that, okay, this is happening and I'll be able to get stronger from this and be able to enjoy these kind of different lulls that happen within my life, whether it be in work or in personal aspects. So right now it feels full, it feels amazing, but preparing myself for kind of what's to come and what I have left to finish so that Franklin's happy with what I have to show from. No, he's such a great supporter. So I know he'll be happy with whatever I come up with, but I'm very excited about it.

Noor Tagouri (06:19):

I want to touch on the heart thing. Cause you described it so beautifully and people answer that question differently, ev every time. And that's why I love asking it. Sure. But it was funny because my 12 year old brother was helping you prepare for this interview, and he asked me to ask you guys to introduce each other. And when I asked you how your heart was, you literally gave the introduction for Jason and then Jason, you

Jason Seife (06:41):

And I actually spoke about my heart. I'll rude me. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just, cause I mean,

Noor Tagouri (06:46):

You spoke about your heart.

Jason Seife (06:47):

Sure. Support of Franklin. Of course.

Noor Tagouri (06:49):

And how would you introduce Franklin?

Jason Seife (06:49):

I'm, I'm Fanboying for Franklin, right? Because it's he, he's such a, there's nobody that I speak to about the exhibition that isn't like, oh, that Franklin's me. You know what I mean? Franklin is so well known. And we just ran into each other in Dubai not knowing that we're both there. And I had just, the first thing I told him, I was I just talking about you to someone. I didn't know he was there, but I was talking to Sonny, who's a director at a gallery in Dubai, and while I was telling her about the show and she's like, oh, I love Franklin. He's so, he's so admired for what he does. And to be able to be in a position where we can work together in an equal, admire, admire, I don't know exact word, but it's so great to meet people that you look up to and that you respect.

(07:33):

And to be able to have a relationship where you can work together, where it's not just me being like, I love what you do, that's so great, and then move on. It's such a driving force in my work to be able to collaborate and learn more about Franklin and have him learn more about my work outside of just the peripheral of the art world and the understanding of what the museum is and how important him being the director of it is. So I don't know if I even answered your question fully there, but yeah, it's just honored to be able to have people care about me that I care about in that light. So it's really cool.

Noor Tagouri (08:10):

I love that you said care about me because that people admire your work. But I love that it's very clear here that we are all very aware of the human behind the art. And I think that that's really important because you bring up the work. There's two things. The way that you talked about strengthening your heart as a muscle and the way that you talk about collaboration. And both of you are very passionate about this concept of collaboration. But I feel like what I see here is almost a collaboration of the hearts of understanding that we are here to be of service to do something that is greater than us. And I think Franklin, you've been able to do that so beautifully with this museum and you can feel it in every corner of it. And so I would love to check in with you all about how you feel about the term collaboration now and the way that you see most people approach it and the way that that's helped you hone how you personally approach it. Because I think that the term collaboration and the concept of collaboration is tossed around a lot, but in the most literal sense, a collaboration is one that transcends just like a logo plus a logo.

Jason Seife (09:20):

Sure. I mean, I'll just give you 2 cents on and would love to hear Franklin's take. I think the best collaborations are the ones that come organically, the ones that kind of just formulate in a conversation and without the term of coming together to push a certain product or push a certain idea. I think every, I've been in different sorts of the term collaboration, like you said, it's used in a lot of different means. And sometimes it like the more it's used, the more watered watered down it becomes. And I feel like my approach is always just working with people who inspire me and having that approach. And then if it falls into the term of a collaboration or it falls into the term of maybe I am a fan of Franklin, what he does, and he's able to put me in contact with someone who can work a little bit better with me directly, then I could with him on a certain project.

(10:14):

That idea of collaboration as to one-on-one can look like a lot of different things, whether it's just being a connector and putting people together in the right circumstances or in just actually collaborating. I personally love to just be around people that inspire me and take in as much as I can while I'm in their presence. And to me that's collaborative, even if it's not like, Hey, we worked on this and this thing, and sometimes I'll have a more genuine organic inspiration for a project or for my life in general from those interactions than I would on something that I specifically sat down with a certain person or branch or whatever to collaborate on a product or artwork or whatever. That is mean. Think that that's my approach to it is just kind of organically if I'm interested in something, obviously this conversation right now is a collaboration speaking on certain aspects together. And my take on it is, oh, it's just kind of what makes sense or what feels right. And then that term kind of coming second to that. But thank you. Thank you.

Franklin Sirmans (11:23):

I mean, it's interesting from the context of, I think about the word curate, right? Cause to take care of the art, but we don't necessarily put the person in that conversation all the time. And so Maritza Lacayo, who's working on the exhibition with Jason, they have a certain incredible collaborative process. And I know you can hear it in the way that Jason speaks about his relationship to working with other people as an artist. But I know that curator specifically really well. And that's the way that she goes about the process always. So I come from that place where it is, we work in contemporary, we work in the moment we work with artists. And that is often the overwhelming kind of gist of partnership or of collaboration. It's not just about the art given. I also feel like in this moment, I find myself prefacing the word collaboration with meaningful a lot more often than I perhaps would have some time ago. In recognition of what Jason mentioned in terms of the frequency with which we hear the word too. I think there is collaboration, there is partnership. And at the end of the day, is it meaningful? And that's what I'm just trying to get to. I don't know. I feel like there lot of, it's almost like the word community in the moment. We use it a lot. We sometimes don't think about the depth of what that could mean. And I think collaboration at least puts us in the space of where we should be.

AD BREAK - REP FULL

Noor Tagouri (13:14):

I want to zoom out a little bit because I appreciate you establishing that. And so you had mentioned collaboration in relationship to curation, but also one of the things that you do and that you've done is critique. And my teammate Adam mentioned earlier that when an artist creates a piece of art, it's often critiquing something in the world, a message in the world. There's something that's behind it. And so how do you approach critiquing a body of work that is also critiquing something that's happening in society? I often almost have a hard time reading when people criticize art in a way that is very specific to the technicality or the color. Or sometimes I'm just like, maybe it just wasn't for you. But it's so clear that somebody has literally poured their heart and soul into this. And oftentimes, I think even today we see how that can impact the artist directly. So how do you carry that responsibility or how do you hope that people will?

Franklin Sirmans (14:24):

This is why I think I gravitated towards contemporaries is cause there is that collaborative process. Cause it is about that sort of relationship. The idea of critique is collaborative. The idea of critique is that's what takes us to the next level. That's what allows for us to get the most out of it if we working in the museum. So get to work with, I don't know, almost 200 people if we're fully open and we're talking about all of the contracted people that make this place go. And there are meaningful ways in which we interact all across the board. Granted, when working with a curator and an artist, it's even more emphasized. But I think what we're trying to do, and this is where it goes back to, I guess words like collaboration, are about elevating a discourse or about doing something that is helpful for not only oneself, but others.

(15:26):

And the only way to get there is to criticize a little bit is to, I think, have an open and healthy conversation where ideas are shared and we learn from that. To me, that's the only reason why to work in a museum in the space of it in a kind of historical sense, is that it's what one of the few places, especially here in Miami where we come together, no, well, there is a mass public transportation, but it's not quite the same. But only sure for better or worse doesn't affect everyone parks, even as places of communal gathering, I'd say is still somewhat nascent. So the museum can filled this role as being a place where different people can come together and experience each other. And the only way we create a better space for that is to have a diversity of opinion, which is the essence of collaboration in some way and critique.

Noor Tagouri (16:26):

Yeah. So Jason, when you are receiving critique, do you have a list of questions or things that it has to go through before you internalize it so that it's coming from the right place?

Jason Seife (16:38):

Yeah, I mean, ideally I would, but I feel like as I'm still a human at the end of the day, and my work is very personal to me, and it takes a long time. And that doesn't mean that it's more important than it work that didn't. But because of the fact that it takes a long time, I spend a lot of time with it. So off of that alone, it becomes a little bit more hard to let go of or hard to put it out into the world and have it be perceived as something that maybe I didn't intend for it to be perceived. But I think frankly made a great point. Cause I don't know if you even meant to make this in the way that you structure the two questions, but we spoke about collaboration and community, and I think that critique is really in line with that because that's one of the most important aspects of a good collaboration, is to be able to receive feedback from someone and be able to channel it in a way that's positive.

(17:24):

Sometimes certain art critics or critics in general can come from a place of, if it's a work that's kind of too well known or accepted too much, they're going to come from a place of, okay, why don't I like this? Because it's so, well, it's accepted. And then there's other critiques who come from a place of real genuine interest in the work and see the potential in it, but see where the artist is failing. So specifically, I had a really good, it wasn't a critique, but it was a long kind of almost therapy session with a writer named Val Maha Luci, who's an British Iranian curator. And he wrote at length about a recent exhibition I did. And we really had these two to three hour zoom meetings over a course of three different weeks where we really spoke about the work. And him questioning me on certain aspects of the work made me realize things that I wasn't even realizing in my approach and how I work and the materialization and certain aspects of my work, which if I stopped myself or pushed away from this kind of questioning, I would've never opened myself up to it.

(18:35):

So that is collaboration in superior's form. And I think that critiques are very important for us as an artist to be able to shed this ego that we have because we make our work so important to us and be able to see it from another person's lens. But again, there has to be that respect because if I don't respect your opinion or your work, then it's going to be a lot easier for me to hear something I don't like and be like, oh, it's just because of Soandso and this and that. So it's a two-part aspect of the critique and the artist being accept the open to it. I think it comes from that.

Franklin Sirmans (19:10):

Yes, yes. Makes sense. Can you remind me to keep it in that arena? I mean, you remind me of trying to come into one's own and to find one's own voice. Very early in my career, I worked as primarily as a writer and as a critic. And I remember very distinctly now that you talk about this relationship, criticizing the work of two artists who I just admire the heck out of. And for a moment walking around kind of scared, didn't want to see them, I published this little piece and was sure critical of the work. And I'm just so happy to say at this point, one of them is my best friend and the other one is an artist who's in the collection here. And it allowed for us to then have a relationship that was so much deeper and so much more meaningful because of what you just said. Yeah, I had an opinion. They respected the opinion. It was based off of a foundation that involved some rigor. It was not baseless just talking. It had ideas behind it. And so it created a space for an ongoing commitment to each other as human beings that came out of that experience. And I never really thought about that

Jason Seife (20:32):

As, yeah, no, it comes from that, what I talked about before, which is that place of caring, right? Yeah. You cared about them as people and you cared about them in their work, and that's why they were open to it and were able to take that. My first critic was my mom, you know what I mean? Growing up, I would, I'd make a drawing or something and she would see it. And I used to always do this thing where I would to draw at night. So at this point, I'm in elementary school, middle. I fell in love with art at a really young age, and it was just portraiture or something, doing a drawing of my grandmother or someone. And then I would believe it in, for instance, in the table or something in the living room for her to see the next morning before she'd go to work. And then she would give me like, oh, it's good, but why does it look a little bit crossed? Or Why is this? And I would take it so I'd be so frustrated at that moment, but I would make the change and it would look so much better. And this is a very basic version of critique, but it was child,

Noor Tagouri (21:28):

She's taking your work seriously and she's actually giving you feedback. I feel like that's so important because then, I mean even even having this memory all these years later, it was loving. It was

Jason Seife (21:38):

Because she still tries to do it. So this day, but no, now it's a little bit harder. Yeah, she'll try to find something, but she'll just be like, oh, is it supposed to be the, it's a little bit leaning on this. She'll try. She'll jokingly do it now because it was such a known thing, but it made me from a very young age understand that someone's important to see your work from another set of eyes, whether it's music, whether it's whatever. Sometimes you need to step away from it and kind of look at it again with a fresher set of eyes or ears or whatever. And being able to have someone else look at something you're working on and give you their opinion on it or where they see it can be stronger or changed is important in no matter what way we're looking at that. Whether it's something as basic as a parent who's telling you what can be better or someone as esteemed as Franklin,

Noor Tagouri (22:36):

I love this idea of critique as collaboration because I don't think that you usually see those two concepts put together, but I think as a foundation in the way that we receive art with, I said earlier in the question, the responsibility of it. Sure. Because I think that even the way that you all are talking about it, it's still a form of kindness. It's still from a loving place. It's not to tear someone down. And I think that when you get enough critique, you know can sense when it's coming from a place of somebody just trying to hurt you or just trying to attack you or whatever happens on the internet, and someone who is actually yearning to connect further with the body of work that you've presented and wants to ask you questions or wants to share something with you. The fact that you had three conversations with the art critic who was talking about your work, and you were constantly, they were coming back to you with questions.

(23:35):

I mean, to me that feels like the approach that, it's kind of like when people write a review of an album moments after it comes out, and you haven't even been able to sit with the music, you haven't been able to study the lyrics, you haven't been able to see how it feels when you're listening to it in the car versus listening to it at home. So there is this deep level intentionality. So thank you for sharing that. I mean, I know that's a very fresh take. Yeah. Jason, I would love to know what is a question you are asking yourself these days?

Jason Seife (24:06):

A lot of questions. I think right now at where I am in my life in context of that, and I refer to the exhibition a lot, but because it's such a large part of my life, in such a large part of the last year and a half of my life, I look at where, what does internal happiness look like? And I don't even know if that's a phrase that makes sense, but the way I define it with me is what does happiness look like or satisfaction look like outside of my work, outside of my personal life, outside of friendships, relationships, how do I find that sense of being in a kind of way to keep it, what's the word I'm for people that are listening, doing a me sign of a median, a steady, it looks like an equilibrium, like a steady path of that, because my life is very much working towards an exhibition.

(25:15):

And then there's that moment where I'm like, it's all that's coming to fruition. Quite literally the name of the exhibition is coming to fruition, and then there's like that exhale after where it's done, and I try to force myself to enjoy it. But the way I'm wired, I'm always think working towards the next exhibition or the next project or the next thing that I have that I'm excited to work on. And I think as I'm getting older and I'm being fortunate to be able to cross all these bucket list things off of my bucket list, quite literally, this was when I was a kid, I went on a field trip to what was then the Miami Art Museum, which was this museum in a different space. That was my first time in a museum, and that was in a magnet school for art that I went to.

(26:03):

And I fell in love with art, and I just dreamt of having my work in a museum because it just felt so, it felt larger than me. So to be able to have this happening is just so amazing. But it's like, okay, just the way I'm wired, it's like the negative is like I cross this off, now what else do I want to do? There's a million things that I want to do. But the question I'm asking myself back to the actual question is how do I remove myself from these things and how do I find that kind of sense of validation and things that are internal, and they're not from my work or from this type of stuff. And it's a tough question to ask, but it's an important question to ask. I feel like it kind of envelopes what we're talking about, whether it's a review or something that we live in this world where everything is so fast paced and there's this instant gratification of posting a photo, posting this and having certain people react to it. And then you get that, and then it's like, okay, what's the next thing that I'm going to do? And just forcing myself to look internally and understand that I'm more than my work. I'm more than these other parts of me. And the more in touch and in tune I am with that, the better everything else will be. I feel like whether it's the work I'm putting out, whether it's the relationship, whether it's a friendship, all these different aspects,

Noor Tagouri (27:20):

Can I say what comes To me?

Jason Seife (27:21):

I would love for you to, yeah.

Noor Tagouri (27:22):

So it's interesting because something that I do a lot in my own investigative work, but also I, I've seen that you do as well, and that I believe is going to be potentially a part of coming to fruition is your process being the product as well. And we're very much, our approach to journalism is full transparency, telling people how we met this person, how we talked to them, what we're thinking when we make mistakes, how we're, so the process ends up being a part of the work. And sometimes it's hard because even when I hear you ask that question, I wonder if some of the answer lies within how to be super in your body during the process. And recognizing that even though the process is product as well, it's still the process because you put so much of your soul into your work. Your work is literally directly tied to your own cultural heritage and your journey with identity and you as a person. And so it's just, for me, at least, as somebody who has very recently been on a similar journey of Coming to Fruition,

Noor Tagouri (28:37):

I feel like I find that the question that you asked is not one that necessarily has an answer, but gives you space to ask more questions about who you are or why you feel like you're here, what your purpose is, or when you're actually engaging with your process. I don't know, sometimes there's this moment, I started painting a couple of years ago, amazing. As  a way to process the investigation. I was doing it. It's kind of this wild journey that I've been on. And so sometimes I'll look at what I've made and I'll just be like, what is the deeper self trying to tell me about this moment in time? And how does that give me access to the equilibrium that I'm trying to tap into? Which is to me at least feeling in my body and just feeling really present because it is so easy to be like, okay, well what's next? Well, I don't know about you, but when I finish a body of work, I'm processing it for years to come. I'm, I'm still having kind of breakthroughs about what's happening or, yeah, I'm still asking really big questions. So what does being in your body during the process look like for you?

Jason Seife (29:48):

I mean, that's so beautiful that you said that because maybe it's not a question, maybe it's a head space that I'm in or that it's important to be in. But more specifically, and I know we're talking about general kind of personal things, but it relates so closely to the exhibition as a whole because that, that's the actual whole premise of this exhibition was I'm showing these paintings in different stages. I'm showing them in the initial inception or the sketch stage, I'm showing them a little bit. You're seeing them become completed in the actual exhibition space. So it's, that was my approach. And this is that forcing myself to literally look back at what I'm doing and enjoy that process. Because as an artist or as a person, I'm so analytical about the things that I do and I have a goal or where I want to be.

(30:37):

And then I gets that and it's like, okay, I did that. Now what's the next thing? And I didn't enjoy this actual aspect, and I'm not looking back at the work that I put into it or forcing myself to digest it in the way that you mentioned that you look at some of your work sometimes where I feel like that happens with me subconsciously where I'm thinking about certain things or sometimes even in an analytical way. I'm like, I love that idea. I wish I would've taken it over here instead. But with this exhibition, I'm literally, that's the, and I don't know how much you you're were aware of, cause I don't even know how much I've talked about this publicly, but that's the actual approach to it. So it's so beautiful that you were able to kind of nice piece that together. I think I can just from it,

Noor Tagouri (31:15):

I can sense it in another person who's going through

Jason Seife (31:17):

That part of the Yeah, you're like, this guy's going through it and I'm kidding. No, no, I get it. For sure.

Noor Tagouri (31:21):

You mean this guy is just going through life

Jason Seife (31:23):

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes

Noor Tagouri (31:24):

When you're going through life out loud,

Jason Seife (31:27):

Yeah

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Noor Tagouri (31:27):

Franklin, what is the question that you are asking yourself these days?

Franklin Sirmans (31:33):

Oof. Oh man. These days, I mean, in light of where we are and the things that are happening around us, question is how to realize the potential of museums and of being in the museum space. I mean that in the sense of, it's one thing to say, gravitate toward this space because care about people, I care about the world. I know from my vantage point that we need things that help us understand each other a little bit better. And I totally believe that artwork, Jason's is a means of furthering the conversation of taking us in a different place, of being a catalyst for conversations that would never happen without the artwork situated between us.

Noor Tagouri (32:30):

Wow.

Franklin Sirmans (32:31):

And so the question now is, and it's not new museums have dealt with this in the past, but we find ourselves at a really interesting inflection point here in Miami, specifically in Florida specifically, where ideas around culture and the limits of open conversations around culture are being tested. So I mean, very directly, very specifically, the other day we had to have a meeting in order to talk about an event that we've done annually, an event around pride that we've done annually. So in the past, that event has included drag queens.

Noor Tagouri (33:20):

Oh, yep.

Franklin Sirmans (33:21):

So we know

Noor Tagouri (33:22):

What's happening in Florida

Franklin Sirmans (33:23):

It's a different conversation this year than it was last year. And so how are we going to deal with that? How are we going to confront that? I think it's a distraction in terms of our higher goals of bringing it to people together. In some ways a distraction that is by design, of course. But it puts us in an interesting crossroads right now. So I'm just trying to ask the question, what can we do as a museum to not only provide a space for people to come together around great works of art, but also to be a place where some of those conversations are difficult, sometimes, not just stimulating opportunities for learning about other people, learning about the world, but how can we,

Noor Tagouri (34:13):

Yeah. Well, I would love to probe a little bit about that meeting that you had and just especially because this museum specifically feels, I mean, it's such an open space and it's meant to house the work of disruptors. So how did you guys proceed with that conversation?

Franklin Sirmans (34:31):

Well, yeah, as you mentioned, like I said, we are sitting here in what we call the learning theater. We are surrounded by literally a space for people to sit and talk and actually a pause space. We're not actually looking at any paintings or anything directly right now. It's really about this in a way. Yeah. Yeah. It's an active space. Normally there would be an artist sitting here making artwork. So the way that we proceed is just, it's just an open conversation and letting, bringing together a different group of people just to voice opinions. How do you feel it literally the way that you started the conversation, how does your heart feel? That's where we began. So it continues from there.

Noor Tagouri (35:20):

So I like to do this thing called, if you really knew me and you just fill in the blank, if you really knew me, you would know. And I would love for you to share that statement. You can do one, you can do two, you can do three, if any, come to your heart. I can start. Yeah. Sorry, can you just repeat what you Well, I'll just start it with, if you really need, stay with me. So if you really knew me, you would know that the last time I was in Miami with my little 12 year old brother was when I got married here almost six years ago.

Jason Seife (36:02):

Amazing.

Noor Tagouri (36:03):

And that he's such a huge inspiration to me in this conversation. And if you really knew me, you would know that it feels very true to be here in conversation with you two. And that I was a little bit nervous just because of the time and the fact that this is the first time that we're recording in this way. But I had full trust, and that always works out really beautifully. And if you really knew me, you would know that this morning I was feeling really tired and foggy, and I didn't know if I was going to feel clear today, but this conversation almost just immediately cleared up my brain. So I'm very grateful.

Jason Seife (36:48):

Amazing. Okay. Well, I feel like I've talked a lot of things that probably make me a bit known to people. I mean, I feel like I've explained some stuff that kind of show my process outside of just work and just me as a person. But if you really knew me, you'd know that I'm colorblind. I'm pretty severely colorblind. So whenever I mention this to people, I try not to say it that much because there's usually people have a very specific reaction to what they think that means. So obviously it doesn't mean that I just see black and gray, but I have, from when I was a kid, my parents thought I just was dumb. I didn't know colors because I would just call something like a color that it wasn't. But I am pretty similar color blind. And for a large part of my artistic career, I was working because I was insecure about it.

(37:42):

So I would work in black and gray or in tones of blue. I was stuck in Picasso's blue period unintentionally. And then I realized that I feel like it's a blessing for me because what people see in my work, the finished painting is very different from what I see in it. So I have to use pretty drastic color changes to be able to see a subtle color. So the way I explain is if you're looking at a color wheel, maybe you'll see orange, orange, yellow, orange, orange, yellow, and I'll just see orange. So all that's just blended into one shade or tone. So I have to be a little bit more extreme in my color changes to be able to see a subtle difference in tone. So what I see in the finished product is kind of not too intense, but I always get these compliments on the colors.

(38:30):

And early on I would take photos of the work and then go to Photoshop and switch to black and gray to be able to see some of the color changes and be like, okay, this is too intense. Cause I can see it when I flip that. And then now I'm just like, I don't care. I'll just able to just kind of lean into it. And I feel like it helps. It's a, it's kind of a fun thing that I have. And if you knew me also, that I'm my own worst critic. So I'm always, that's not Franklin. No, Franklin is the best. Franklin is wonderful. I'm always looking back at what I've done and Okay, cool. But I mean, I'm always looking at it, and not so much on just technicality, but just on, as I learn more and I have the beautiful opportunity to share my work in spaces like this museum and have these conversations about intention and intention in the work, that forces me to look back at what I'm doing and this platform that I have where people care about my work and question kind of why I'm doing this, what I'm saying with it.

(39:33):

Because there was a large part of my life where I had this kind of survivor's guilt of just like, why am I able to make a living making this work when I know how hard I've been to Iran, I've been to Syria. I know how difficult it is for where this art form started to be able to make any sort of money in it due to things like sanctions and so much more. That is for part two of this conversation. But when I first came back from that trip, I was so jaded, I was so inspired, but so jaded. Cause I was just like, why? You know what I'm saying? But then to be able to have this opportunity to shed so much light on this and not do anything with it is so much worse than anything else. So to be able to do the work that I make, and then I'll have kids from all over the world who are studying like Islamic art or studying carpet design in a university, and they'll come to me and be like, I was so bored taking this class, and I saw your work, and it made me excited about it.

(40:30):

To have that kind of full circle moment is so rewarding, and just trying to educate people as much as possible from all walks of life on that is so important to me. And yeah, I know I tangent from the original line, but beautiful. I think it's important.

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Noor Tagouri (40:46):

I mean, also, I just want to say how profound, I mean, it's interesting because that was the back to back with the colorblindness to the worst critic, but how profound it is that you remind all of us that the way that we observe people's art is never the way that the artist perceives it. Yeah. You said that and you explained that in such a literal sense. So yeah, I know that you're your worst critic, but I also think that your, I mean, your work is phenomenal. It's inspiring and moving to us, and there's a reason I understand the survivors guilt. That always goes through my mind, but there's a reason that we're here and we're able to continue the stories and continue the traditions and amplify them. So thank you so much for sharing

Jason Seife (41:27):

Oh, thank you.

Noor Tagouri (41:28):

And Franklin, what, let's get to know you.

Franklin Sirmans (41:32):

That was incredible. You know George Clinton,

Jason Seife (41:34):

But at first time, me and George Clinton were ever in the same, in the same, but I'm glad, that's a wonderful context to be in. He's a legend

Franklin Sirmans (41:43):

Who's also a painting.

Jason Seife (41:44):

Oh, I, I'm not familiar with his paintings, but definitely of his work.

Franklin Sirmans (41:48):

Wow, very cool.

Jason Seife (41:50):

Oh

Franklin Sirmans (41:50):

Gosh. The question

Noor Tagouri (41:51):

If you really knew me.

Franklin Sirmans (41:52):

Yeah, yeah. Well, lemme preface that by saying, yes, go for it. You are so good at what you do because you almost got me to say anything, but I'm just be like, well, Maritza just came back. Don't tell her.

Jason Seife (42:07):

She's just like, no,

Franklin Sirmans (42:09):

I'll leave it. I'll leave it at I, I'll leave it at that respect and admiration for you both. If you really knew me, you'd know that I would leave any art event or conversation and go see a football match at any moment.

Noor Tagouri (42:22):

Are we talking about American football? No. Okay. Soccer.

Franklin Sirmans (42:25):

Yes,

Noor Tagouri (42:26):

Soccer. He's a

Franklin Sirmans (42:28):

Huge soccer. Any moment.

Jason Seife (42:30):

Amazing. And I

Franklin Sirmans (42:31):

Have so many examples. It's ridiculous.

Jason Seife (42:34):

Who, but wait, so who's your team?

Franklin Sirmans (42:36):

My,

Jason Seife (42:37):

Well depend. Okay. If we're doing like

(42:38):

What are we talking about? What are we, we're Spain, what are we doing?

Franklin Sirmans (42:43):

Laga? I'm less inclined,

Jason Seife (42:44):

But I'd Okay. But bars are okay. Would've, you can't see my keys, but there's a bar. Oh yeah. Yeah. We might have had to pull the show if you said Real Madrid. I'm just kidding. That's a really good, you really good. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.

Noor Tagouri (42:58):

That's A really great one. Well, it's perfect. It's a perfect transition because Yaseen, my beautiful 12 year old brother actually has the final question of this interview. And because you were so generous to share about colorblindness, I actually think it would be beautiful if Yaseen, do you want to get on the mic and ask the really amazing question that you shared earlier? I think for you two, it's a very, very important question. Awesome. So go for it. Ya.

(43:27):

What's your favorite color?

Jason Seife (43:28):

Oof. Right. It goes through phases right now I like a mint green. Ooh, I like a mint green. Love a mint green. Do you approve of that All? It's all right. It's all right. It's all.

Noor Tagouri (43:44):

Do you have a reason why?

Jason Seife (43:46):

No, it's just like, it feels calming. I don't know. It's just kind of where I'm at in life. I kind of like that color. I love it for you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't love it for me as much, but it's okay. Look, next when I change, I'll tell you.

(43:58):

He's talking about soccer with you.

(43:59):

Oh, okay. Okay.

Noor Tagouri (43:59):

American football. He just learned why soccer's called soccer and not American football yesterday. Oh,

Jason Seife (44:04):

So amazing.

Noor Tagouri (44:05):

Okay. Frankly, favorite color.

Franklin Sirmans (44:07):

Favorite color is blue. I just feel like there are just too many variations that I relate to, and it's just such a broad spectrum and it has so much metaphorical power. So

Jason Seife (44:18):

That's why I was going to say blue, but I was like, I'll give it to Franklin. Just so you know. I'm just kidding.

Franklin Sirmans (44:23):

Thank you

Noor Tagouri (44:24):

Thank you both so much for your time. Thank you for your service, and thank you for your heart. This was beautiful.

Franklin Sirmans (44:29):

Thank you.

Jason Seife (44:30):

Thank you for Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

OUTRO:

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AT YOUR SERVICE PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA.

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI. 

Theme music is the song "Thunderdome, Welcome to America" by Portugal. the Man.

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS FRANKLIN SIRMANS AND JASON SEIFE. BE SURE TO CHECK OUT "COMING TO FRUITION" AT THE PEREZ ART MUSEUM IN MIAMI

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) Hawa Hassan on Grandmother Representation, Food Storytelling, and Building a Hot Sauce Line

Noor Tagouri:

Finally.

Hawa Hassan (00:00):

I know.

Noor Tagouri (00:01):

I feel like this. I literally looked in my email and I was like, the last time I asked you, this was literally in 2021, 2 years ago, and that was, I think you were recording Hawa at Home.

Hawa Hassan (00:14):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:15):

That year. And just a casual show on the Food Network

Hawa Hassan (00:22):

That show, God, it feels like a lifetime ago.

Noor Tagouri (00:26):

Really.

Hawa Hassan (00:27):

It feels so long ago.

Noor Tagouri (00:29):

Did you enjoy doing it?

Hawa Hassan (00:31):

I did. I love cooking and I love learning, and I like being in front of the camera. That comes really easy to me. So it was a lot of the things I like to do in one. Yeah, and it was a fun new experience,

Noor Tagouri (00:52):

So I loved it. I thought it was such a beautiful, it was so integrated. It wasn't just about the food, it was about the story. It was about the spices and the flavors and also what each of them meant and how you created home in so many different ways. And I'm so excited to talk about that with you.

Hawa Hassan (01:09):

Thank you, Noor.

Noor Tagouri (01:10):

So the way we kick off these conversations is asking a simple question, how is your heart doing today?

Hawa Hassan (01:17):

So funny, Mona asked this question the other night, and I struggled because I was thinking about in the moment, and it was funny because I didn't realize how much I needed that type of a dinner that night, the proximity to people and people that are similar to who I am and people who practice my religion. And so in that moment, I had sadness and I was happy and I was a little overwhelmed. So I've been thinking about this question since Thursday night. I would say today my heart feels at rest, but overall, I would say I think my heart the last couple years has felt tired for myself for the world. But overall, today I feel like I'm at rest.

Noor Tagouri (02:12):

Well, rest is revolutionary. So that's a really great state to be in. And I think it's like when you say that you feel felt tired for yourself in the world. I've just been thinking about your story so much and your origin story so much and how independent you became because you had to, and how we are so lucky to witness the fruits of the work that you've put in, of how you've pieced together the story of who you are and how you've gotten here. So I would love if we could, I don't typically start at the beginning, but I would love with you to start a little bit at the beginning and take me back to when you were seven years old.

Hawa Hassan (03:01):

Yeah. Well, okay, seven is a little weird because when I was four, the war was starting, and that was in the late eighties, early nineties. And we moved to Kenya. My family and I, my mom at the time had five children. One of them was living with my grandmother in the countryside in Somalia. And so she was traveling with just four kids and one she was pregnant with. So only three of us were with her. And then my little sister, Ayan, she was pregnant with. And so life, I think the life I know now and have really started at four. Prior to that, I was just a kid running around, going to the beach on the weekends, going to my grandfather's house on the weekends. But when we moved into the refugee camp, when the war started, we moved there because my mom was really intent on leaving Somalia and Africa altogether.

(04:00):

We really went because my parents were in the midst of a divorce. So my mom, who at the time I think was 23 or 24, was starting a new life in the midst of the war while being pregnant. And so when we got to the refugee camp, she quickly realized that help wasn't going to come as quickly as it was. And so we opened a good store and we sold dry goods. And that was the first time I worked. And it was such an adventurous time because I was a part of something that felt so new to all of us. I was boiling pasta water, I was taking care of my little sisters, my big brother become the man of the house. Meanwhile, he's like five. And after a year of being there, my mother realized that it wasn't conducive to the life that she wanted us to have. So we moved to Nairobi and we started school. And then two years later, there was an opportunity for a girl to go to Seattle with a group of nine men.

Noor Tagouri (05:04):

What do you mean? What's the opportunity?

Hawa Hassan (05:06):

Sponsorship. So originally there was a little girl that was supposed to go, and about three months prior to leaving, her mother decided she wasn't going to go. And actually, this is a part of the story, I don't really share much, but now I know more about it because my mom and I have talked a lot about it. So they decided that they weren't going to send their daughter, and my mom said, oh, I'll send my eldest daughter. And so I stepped in for this girl, moved to Seattle with the eldest man who was my father on paper, was a man named Abdi Samad who was supposed to be a grandfather from my dad's side of the family. So when we got to Seattle, the plan was my mom would follow, and we got

Noor Tagouri (05:55):

So you were the key. You were the ticket that could help.

Hawa Hassan (05:58):

I was one less person who needed to be sponsored, so I was going to come to Seattle. Then she was going to wait for sponsorship, and then they were going to move to Seattle. She didn't think it would take long as God would have it. She got that sponsorship in like 2007. But by then, my family had moved to Norway. But imagine had she waited from 1990 to, or 1993 to 2007, living in Kenya. But my mother is a brilliant woman who is a mover and a shaker. And so I got to Seattle, she realized that there wasn't going to be any sponsorship because Black Hawk down had happened. And so they stopped giving sponsorships to Somalis. My mom then remarried the guy who does the money exchanging at the market, she opened a gold store. She sent him to Norway as a student, and he filed for family reunion. So my family's been living in Oslo since 1997. Crazy. That's wild. I know.

Noor Tagouri (07:02):

But okay, fill in the picture a little bit more for me. So you go to Seattle and you find out, and your mom finds out that your reunion isn't going to be a soon, because even the idea of uniting after a year is a long time, especially for a child. Do you remember how you were feeling? And has she ever shared with you how she was feeling?

Hawa Hassan (07:25):

Yeah, I mean, the first couple years, yeah, I was like, Ooh, this is so exciting. This is a new adventure. My mom, my brother and I had really been on these adventures together. My mom was so young. Now, when I think about it, I'm like, gosh, I can't imagine being that young and having to figure it out. It was at the end of elementary school that I was like, oh, no one's coming.

Noor Tagouri (07:49):

Who were you staying with?

Hawa Hassan (07:49):

I was still living in this, I was living in a two bedroom apartment. So when we got there, everyone kind of dispersed. So it ended up being me and Abdi Samad and two of the other guys. So I had my own room. We were living in the south side of Seattle. When I started middle school, I was like, it's time to assimilate. No one's coming. So sixth grade, I was like, I got to take off my hijab. I was struggling with all the things. And I did, by seventh grade, I took off my hijab. I started playing basketball. I joined a community center. I joined all these free programming like 4 H.

Noor Tagouri (08:28):

I remember 4 H.

Hawa Hassan (08:29):

Oh, saved my life. Might have been the only Muslim in young life, that Christian group. I was like, I'm going on a horseback ride.

Noor Tagouri (08:38):

Was 4 H Christian, too?

Hawa Hassan (08:40):

No, it was just making young Americans, farmers or something like that.

Noor Tagouri (08:46):

And I grew up in a rural town, so everybody was a 4 H

(08:50):

Did you want to

(08:50):

Do those things? How does a child, at the time, one, I mean, I'm just curious, how did you come to start choosing or start wearing the hijab at such a young age? And then how did you make that decision as a child to decide not to

(09:07):

Anymore?

Hawa Hassan (09:08):

So all of my mother's daughters did it just, my mother didn't wear hijab growing up. It was a different time in Somalia. And she was a traveler, and her and my father went everywhere. And so I always saw really beautiful women who were modern and who were also religious and who worshiped in the way that they wanted to. They didn't follow any strict rules, and we weren't monolithic in the way that we are now as Somalis. And so when we got to Kenya, it was like, this is our differentiator. We are Muslims. It was like, we're Somalis and we're Muslims. So all of my mother's daughters did at that time. And then when I got there, I wore the hijab. Cause I was like, I'm honoring my family. This is who I am. This my mother would want me to be a good girl. My mother would want me to be kind. My mother would want me to take care of this man, Abdi Samad or Abdi Samad. I'm like, she would want me to be a good daughter to him. And so it's funny, his name on paper is Noel Hassan. That's why my last name Hassan.

Noor Tagouri (10:19):

No.

Hawa Hassan (10:20):

Yes. But refugee stories are always so messy. It's beautiful. And so it's weird calling him Abdi Samad because it's like, you just didn't do that growing up.

Noor Tagouri (10:35):

What did you call him?

Hawa Hassan (10:36):

“Awoa”. Or I, yeah, I called him Grandpa. Yeah. So I was in the sixth grade. I was like, okay, you're going to become American because they're not coming. And then from that point on, I just was really angry and disconnected from them for a long time. And then when I got to the eighth grade, my basketball coach, I got really good at basketball and was playing AAU. And she said, I think if someone doesn't step in, you're going to slip through the cracks. It's weird to talk about this.

Noor Tagouri (11:18):

I appreciate you so much for

(11:26):

Sharing, and we can pause at

(11:27):

Any time.

Hawa Hassan (12:47):

So yeah, my teammate, her parents took me in and raised me as their own. And I was there until I went off to college. And then a year or two into college, I was asked to move to New York.

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Noor Tagouri (13:06):

Tell me about that. So when, at this time, how often are you able to communicate with your mom?

Hawa Hassan (13:13):

I never spoke to them. I didn't speak to them from, I think from eighth grade until I was a senior in high school. The family that was raising me, the mother was a school teacher, and she taught at an elementary school and she had Somali students. And one day, and Yvonne was really funny, I think wherever she went, she tried to connect with people in a way that sometimes was a little aggressive. So she was telling these Somali students, she's like, I have a Somali daughter. And so the kids went back home and they were like, miss Yvonne has a Somali daughter. And so the mom came to the school and she said, what's her name? And she told them, and she said, her mother's been looking for her. And so the lady brought, I'll never forget, the lady brought Yvonne. Remember the line paper we used to use in school with my mother's phone number on it? It was a four seven number. It was this long Norwegian number. And she brought it to Yvonne and she said she should call her mother. So I did. And Abdi Samad had just said to, because I got emancipated when I moved in with them, he just said, oh, she moved in with some black Americans. That's all he knew. That was the extent of what he knew. And so we waited till the weekend. We called my mom. And

Noor Tagouri (14:43):

What were you thinking?

Hawa Hassan (14:47):

I think I was thinking I was no longer angry. I was ready to talk to them. I was ready to learn about their life. I wanted to know more about Norway. I don't think at that point, I must have known that they were in Norway, but I don't think I could, that I could comprehend where Norway was or I put a lot of thought into it. So

Noor Tagouri (15:07):

How old are you when you make this phone call?

Hawa Hassan (15:09):

I had to have been 15th. Cause I graduated high school when I was 16, so around my 15th birthday. And we just never stopped talking after that.

Noor Tagouri (15:23):

Do you remember one of the first things that she said to you?

Hawa Hassan (15:25):

Oh, she just was like, I've been looking for you. And I was like, oh, okay. Because lady, you sent me here. Why? Yeah. A lot of therapy. I know why now. But I'm like, oh, okay. And she's like, well, what happened? And I think she's still very angry about the way everything went down, but she's really grateful that everything turned out fine. Growing up in the US in the nineties was a little, kids were getting snatched up. And so to be on this side of things and to have made, even then I had the best of circumstances in Seattle. And I always tell people, I'm like, it's my mother's prayers, because there's no way, there's no other way to explain how everything right.

Noor Tagouri (16:16):

It was miraculous. It really was. And it still is. I mean, look at what you're doing now. So you get the call to move to New York. Why?

Hawa Hassan (16:29):

I started modeling in high school. My best friend Devin was a model. And one day I went in with her to her agency, and this woman, Paige said, you should model. And I was like, I play basketball, I don't, why would I model? And a little while later, I thought I needed a summer job. I should do it. Did it? Things went really well. The bar Marshe at the time, which is Macy's now was in Seattle. That's their headquarters. I started doing really well. Eddie Bauer, all these things just started falling into place for me. And so when I was 19, they were like, you should move to New York. And I was like, say less. Packed up my stuff. I came to visit when I was, I think 17 for a summer, and then I came back when I was 19 and I moved to BedStuy Brooklyn.

Noor Tagouri (17:20):

No way. It's a Brooklyn baby.

Hawa Hassan (17:22):

I know. I'm still there, which I'm so thankful for.

Noor Tagouri (17:27):

Wow. So tell me about your relationship with food and how did you use food as a tool to piece together your story?

Hawa Hassan (17:39):

Well, so growing up in Seattle, I was very clear on who I was. I'd always be like, I used to have this thing where one Sunday a month I would cry, I would ball my eyes out,

Noor Tagouri (17:53):

And you were able to hold it, concentrate it, and then pick the day?

Hawa Hassan (17:57):

It was one Sunday a month, one Sunday a month. And I laugh sometimes because I'm like, you were a weird little girl. But that one Sunday I was like, I could feel whatever I want, and then we're going to pick ourselves back up and we're going to get to it. And so I would always walk around and I'd be like, I'm Oman's daughter. I'm Athens daughter. I knew who I was. And I still sometimes do that when I need to remind, when I need to center myself. And so I just have always felt like, I don't know what my mother was doing when she was praying, but I've always felt very grounded in myself. So I knew I was really different from everyone around me in Seattle, but I really loved being the girl next door. I was all of these things, but I was still the basketball player, a good student, a kind friend.

(18:58):

I was, all these little things that I really hung onto my whole life. And so when I came to New York, I was like, oh, not only was I very different in Seattle, but this place is also a place of a lot of misfits. And no one is sharing the stories of misfits like me. We're all watching the news and we're all saying, oh yeah, maybe we are pirates. Maybe we are hungry all the time because these are the stories that are being told about me to me. And I just kept thinking, how do I tell better stories about people like myself? And so I was always going to Norway by now, I was traveling to Norway all the time to be with my mother and sitting with her and her friends, I was like, they're healthy stories to tell. They're big, beautiful stories to tell. And those stories don't belong to the people who don't have the firsthand experience. So food, for me, getting into it was a way of returning agency to myself and to my family and to people like me.

Noor Tagouri (20:11):

So tell me when, what was the moment when you had the first idea that you were going to make this a career?

Hawa Hassan (20:23):

I gave up my apartment in 2014, and I moved to Norway. I was living in Forte Green. I still live in Forte Green, Brooklyn. And I went to be with my mother because I wanted to talk to her about who I wanted to be long term. And that was it for me. I was like, I'm going home and I'm starting a business and I'm starting with hot sauces.

Noor Tagouri (20:46):

You And how did you know it was going to be hot sauces?

Hawa Hassan (20:50):

Oh. Cause I took my Vitamix with me that summer to Norway. And for

Noor Tagouri (20:54):

You took your Vitamix in your suitcase?

Hawa Hassan (20:55):

I was such a crazy person

Noor Tagouri (20:59):

Of all of the things that you just told me that might be the most peculiar

Hawa Hassan (21:02):

I was like, I'm going to make my smoothies every morning. And it was Ramadan. I love it. And so every night I was blending the hot sauces for the family, and my mom kept saying, this is such a good mixer. And that, I mean, I was making BasBaas every night. And that's how really I was like, oh, I can go home and make this and inch my way onto American tables, and then I can write a book and teach them, and then I can go on their TV and show them. And I mean, now I look back at 'em like I was so naive. I had such big ideas.

Noor Tagouri (21:41):

But you did all of them. So what was that naive?

Hawa Hassan (21:43):

I know, but I think had I really had, I written it all. I mean, I did write it all out, but had I really thought about the work it would take, I might've never started.

Noor Tagouri (21:55):

I think I feel similarly to that.

Hawa Hassan (21:57):

Okay. Tell me a little bit about that.

Noor Tagouri (21:58):

I don't know, but I don't know if I would've never started. I don't know if that's the sentiment, but I think it's my gratefulness towards being naive and how I started is when I think about it, is more about people. I always assumed people were all very kind and people were all really supportive and loving. And even when I first started on the internet itself, things were a lot more positive. When a video, every once in a while something would go viral, but it was always in such joy. It was a wedding dance or a puppy vi or something like that. And so I think that I really just felt like I saw a possibility and I was like, oh, I can be exactly who I am out loud and it's just going to be fine. And I think had I known how things were going to become in terms of how people treat people when they're very loud with their ambitions and passions and how they hyper scrutinize or in some cases make it their mission to really put you down or tear you down or whatever it is, then I don't know if I would've been as willing. Sometimes I say, if I was my 17, 18 year old self, 10, 15 years ago, today in the world that we live in today, I don't know if I would've ever started in the way that I did. I don't think I would've had the courage to, because it, it's still scary.

Hawa Hassan (23:32):

It's so scary. But isn't it satisfying to have an idea and actualize it?

Noor Tagouri (23:41):

Absolutely. And I'm so grateful that we've done that and we continue to do that. And so I think about how many people don't, are too afraid to do that for themselves because of how we treat people or because of how hard we make it for people to just truly try to do what feels truest to them

Hawa Hassan (24:05):

Yeah. I can second that. Yeah. I do know that you, and doing the things you do gives permission to so many people to be, which is so nice. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (24:20):

I feel the same way about you.

Hawa Hassan (24:21):

Thanks, boo.

Noor Tagouri (24:22):

I mean, you've done BasBaas. You've written a cookbook, bbs, in BBS Kitchen, you've documented the stories of the grandmothers and the generations who use food not only as a language, but in a tool, but as an act of service and love. And it's interesting because something I've been thinking a lot about is when my grandmother feel takes a offense. You don't eat her food when you come over and you don't eat the food, and she gets really offended. Or if you ate before you came because maybe you don't want to make her have to go through that. And I realized as, and I've unpacked this with my aunt, but my grandmother got married when she was 15. She was pulled out of school, and she always resented that she wasn't able to finish her education and pursue a career. But what she was able to master so beautifully was cooking the food of our culture and to serving it to family and into each other.

(25:28):

And when she gets offended, it's not that it's not about you not eating her food, it's about that gesture of saying no or politely declining can be translated to her as well, I don't love you because this is how we say I love you in many ways is making the food and serving the food and you enjoying the food and accepting that gift. Yeah. So when you were pursuing in Bibi's Kitchen, what was your, especially because you spent so many years away from your family directly and you were having, I, it's so interesting that you basically came to know your family from this more mature lens where you were appreciating the smallest things that maybe as children we take for granted. So how did that perspective that you had of the elders who passed down these traditions impact the way you told that story?

Hawa Hassan (26:33):

So I mean, it's really interesting because Somalis are nomadic people and we're natural storytellers. And so in Islam we say paradise is at the foot of your mother. And so a lot of th e way I've come into many stories that are about me, even as a child or my mother, and my father's relationship is from just sitting with her in the kitchen as a 20 something year old. And so when I wanted to write about these women, I really went into food to tell stories. And so my number one interest was what is missing? Who is missing? How do you make it better? And I wish I could say there was this big great gesture behind preserving these stories from grandmothers. But my main reason was no one is talking to our elders, especially at the time. I was like, what is going on? Every chef is on, they were on tv. This is my Nonna's recipe, this is my grandmother's recipe, this is my abuela's recipe. Well, where is she?

Noor Tagouri (27:45):

Yeah, absolutely.

iHawa Hassan (27:49):

Noor Tagouri (28:34):

Do you reckon with what was missing is the actual voice of the elder, because that's frustrating.

Hawa Hassan (28:40):

Yeah. Okay. So I don't know that I've ever said this in an interview, but I'll tell you rest in peace, Anthony Bourdain. And I used to adore him, and he would go so far and wide only to talk to other men on tv. And I was like, dang, he's in a village in Senegal, and there's no women.

Noor Tagouri (29:01):

I felt the same way about the Libya episode actually,

Hawa Hassan (29:04):

Where Where're the grandmas. And I didn't know if it was a cultural thing. I didn't know.

Noor Tagouri (29:12):

I also had the same question about the, I was like, I wonder because it's also culturally, there's so much separation.

Hawa Hassan (29:19):

Mhm

Noor Tagouri (29:19):

So I was just like, huh? Was it just that this, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it, it's a challenging thing to figure out.

Hawa Hassan (29:28):

But I was like, I know that I could tell those stories. And I was like, I know I can hold space for those women. And so that's how I always arrive at the things I do. I grew up in conflict. So my next book is about food and conflict. Yes, yes. I'm very

Noor Tagouri (29:47):

Excited. Can you tell us about it?

Hawa Hassan (29:47):

Yeah. So it's about, again, who gets to tell the story. So it's returning agency to people who've lived in historical conflict zones. So Afghanistan, Lebanon, the Congo, Liberia, Iraq. And so I traveled to these countries to record these people's stories. And what people will be surprised about is the book is about celebration. I always say we have no sad stories to tell because enough people have told our sadness and made up even more sad stuff that didn't even occur. And so it's about community, it's about connection, it's about family, it's about the everyday lives of people. So there's snapshots of people that I met along the way, and then it's about the food, the diversity of the cuisines. And I think that's going to be really beautiful. I love El Salvador. It's not lost on me how similar El Salvador and Somalia are. And so I've traveled to El Salvador to record their stories and to talk about the star of the war, the start of the war being about the coffee and the farmland. And I interview a man who's like 78 years old, a guy named Fernando, who's become so dear to me. And we talk about his coffee journey and his young as his life as a coffee manager, and traveled to Lebanon. And I meet an activist named Mikey. And so it's just, it's really about returning agency to the people it belongs to.

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Noor Tagouri (31:27):

Do you have a name for the book yet?

Hawa Hassan (31:29):

I don't. We've been, okay. This, my editors are calling it In the Field because when I was reporting on the book, I was like, oh, I'll be, I'm in the field. I'm busy out in the field. Out in the field. But that has so many connotations.

Noor Tagouri (31:47):

It's going to come to you.

Hawa Hassan (31:48):

Yeah. That's what I've been thinking.

Noor Tagouri (31:51):

Come to you. You just got to make the space for it. Or you'll see it in the interviews and then in the transcripts and something will pop out.

Hawa Hassan (31:57):

I hope so.

Noor Tagouri (31:58):

No, I know it will. And then you let me

Hawa Hassan (32:00):

Just, I'll text you the name. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (32:04):

That's so beautiful. How are you feeling before embarking on that journey?

Hawa Hassan (32:11):

Well, I don't know. I was really exhausted because I was coming off of in Bebe's Kitchen, then the TV shows, and then the beard happened. So I won the James Beard, and then I flew out that night to the Congo. Then I get stuck because I didn't have a lav long for Congo. I got stuck in Pariss for a day. So I was nervous and excited, but I was also exhausted. And then somewhere along the way, in the stories and in the people I found rest and Liberia especially, tell me the people of barrier are just joyful people, people hospitable. So they just took me in. They took me and my photographer in, they cared for us. We went to their church, we ate with them. I spent Juneteenth there. So that was historical. And I think it was, this was the 400 year, I don't want to get it wrong of free people living there. And so they were celebrating that as well. Wow. It was just a joyful time. But beyond that, it's on the ocean. Life is really easy and smooth there. And I was coming from the Congo, which had been very hectic. And then to go there and just have rest was really nice. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (33:47):

What was the process? Did you guys have a guide on

Hawa Hassan (33:54):

A fixer?

Noor Tagouri (33:54):

Fixer on the ground? Or how much was prepared or planned for before you got to the countries? Especially because they were conflict?

Hawa Hassan (34:09):

So the place that I was most prepared for was Lebanon. Cause I didn't know much about Lebanon before going Congo. I used my friends, Liberia, used my friends El Salvador. I had gone there to do research in 2020 for this book. And so I used the same people I used then. So there was some prep ahead of time. But Lebanon was the place I was most prepared for. Cause I knew nothing about it.

Noor Tagouri (34:38):

And how long were you staying in each place?

Hawa Hassan (34:40):

I stayed 10 days in Lebanon. Cause again, I knew nothing about Lebanon, so I was like, I got to immerse myself in their culture. Congo, three days, Liberia, three days, El Salvador, four days. So no more than four days usually.

Noor Tagouri (34:54):

And what does the trip look like? What are the steps? How are the meals talked about? How are they enjoyed?

Hawa Hassan (35:01):

So what happened before I started the travels, I did research on the cuisine first. So I picked eight to 10 recipes from each country. And then while I was there, I just really chased down what does an Egyptian kitchen look like? What are you eating every day in Egyptian home? And then the recipes in the book became reflective of that. So same. And in Bebe's kitchen, it was so much more about cooking. This book is much more about people. So I was going for tea with Mikey going to the center that he runs. I cooked with a woman named Tanya in Liberia. Some of that was just being in Tanya's kitchen and watching her cook. And then in the Congo we made beignets. So sometimes there was a little bit of food, but very often it was sitting in someone's courtyard and recording them.

Noor Tagouri (35:58):

And what are you recording on?

Hawa Hassan (36:00):

I use, are you recorder? We use our camera. So Riley, my photographer, God bless his heart, shoots everybody. And then I use my phone to record, and then I transcribe everything.

Noor Tagouri (36:15):

Natural writer.

Hawa Hassan (36:16):

Ooh,

Noor Tagouri (36:17):

We love it.

Hawa Hassan (36:18):

That I'm not

Noor Tagouri (36:19):

Well, your writing is beautiful.

Hawa Hassan (36:22):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (36:23):

This is so, oh my gosh, I'm so excited for this. What is something that you learned about how food impacts a place, or actually how conflict impacts the food of a place?

Hawa Hassan (36:39):

I think one of the things that was so clear to me was the importing, the exporting. So Liberia where they eat ton of rice, they no longer grow their own rice,

(36:50):

So they import it from China. And we're talking about a place that can easily grow rice and that historically grows rice. So just the basics. A lot of these wars were started over lamb. So El Salvador, I learned a ton about coffee and some of the things that have happened with the government because of coffee and coffee farms, which is shocking to me. I'm like, wow. But in other places, it wasn't so much about the impact on, in Lebanon, they no longer import a lot of things because it's super expensive. So they pickle stuff and in the winter they can everything and they put it in the ground. And so I learned a lot about their pantries, which Lebanese people are really big on pantries. I didn't know that. There's those small stuff that

Noor Tagouri (37:54):

Those are, everything that you just shared is so important.

Hawa Hassan (37:58):

It's insane. It's tiny little things that make a huge difference.

Noor Tagouri (38:02):

It's like a reminder that the more you learn, the more you realize nothing.

Hawa Hassan (38:06):

Oh my God.

Noor Tagouri (38:07):

And how individual every person is in every culture. What is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

Hawa Hassan (38:17):

I think every day I try to ask myself, what do I know? For sure.

Noor Tagouri (38:27):

I love that question.

Hawa Hassan (38:29):

It's actually in my journal, and it's from Oprah from when I was a little girl. That book,

Noor Tagouri (38:33):

Obsessed with that book. I started asking myself the same thing.

Hawa Hassan (38:36):

That is so funny. Yeah. It's like from high school over days.

Noor Tagouri (38:40):

I was, I read that book probably when I was 17 or 18. And it's interesting. I think I should totally revisit it because when I asked myself what I know for sure, I think I also asked that last season at the end of every episode. But I feel like now, the only thing I know for sure is love. Just like it's just love and be here now, being here right now and everything else is up for question. What do you know for sure?

Hawa Hassan (39:11):

Ooh. I know that I'm loved deeply by my partner. I know that I'm so safe and I have so much security. I have more security than I've ever had in my life.

Noor Tagouri (39:26):

I love that for you.

Hawa Hassan (39:27):

Thank you.

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Noor Tagouri (39:31):

What's a meal you've been cooking a lot these days?

Hawa Hassan (39:34):

Oh God, this is going to sound so boring to you. But I've been making a lot of ground Turkey because I'm trying to get a lot of protein in these days.

Noor Tagouri (39:41):

Is that is an easy way to do it. The ground Turkey, what are you making? How are you making it? Because I get it sometimes and then I'm just like, so I just toss it in with,

Hawa Hassan (39:50):

Yeah. So the beginning of,

Noor Tagouri (39:52):

You're looking away as if you're going to be embarrassed by your answer

Hawa Hassan (39:54):

Because it's so embarrassing. I mean

Noor Tagouri (39:57):

But you were honest. I love it.

Hawa Hassan (39:58):

Oh, I can't lie. The beginning of every week we have this system in my house where I use our food processor to chop all of our vegetables. So I prepare everything well in advance. So no onion cutting happens. No pepper cutting happens. So I have my red onions that I use, and then I get two things of ground turkey, and I get the Trader Joe's taco mix and I just dump it in.

Noor Tagouri (40:32):

Don't be embarrassed

Hawa Hassan (40:33):

That that's what I do.

Noor Tagouri (40:34):

That sounds great.

Hawa Hassan (40:37):

And then I always put it on top of a bed of spinach.

Noor Tagouri (40:41):

Fresh or

Hawa Hassan (40:42):

Fresh. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (40:44):

I could go for that right now.

Hawa Hassan (40:46):

Yeah, it works. I get almost 50 grams of protein just in those two cups.

Noor Tagouri (40:52):

Do you add BasBaas?

Hawa Hassan (40:53):

No, not often.

Noor Tagouri (40:55):

What's your favorite way to use

Hawa Hassan (40:57):

BasBaas? Yeah. Oh, on everything. On my eggs, on my chicken sausages on. If I'm making a sandwich, if I have people over, I have it in the middle as a dip.

Noor Tagouri (41:11):

That's amazing.

Hawa Hassan (41:12):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (41:13):

Okay. So your mom, how does she show up in the BasBaas process and in Bibi's Kitchen and in the cookbook that you're currently writing? What is her experience knowing who you are today through those things?

Hawa Hassan (41:31):

Oh, I don't know. I think when I modeled, my mom was really embarrassed that her Muslim daughter went to America, didn't become a lawyer, but she became a model. And now I don't know that my mom completely understands what I do for work, but she's aware that I'm a professional and that when we travel, I can get her a hotel room and that makes her so happy. But in the way that she shows up in the experiences that I write about anyways, is that my mom is the epitome of resiliency. And I hate that word, to be honest with you. Yeah. I tell people all the time, baby, I'm going to lay down. Yeah. Ain't nothing about me strong. You know, shouldn't have to be, get somebody else to do it. Cause I, I'm, I'm going to lay down. But my mom is not like that after all of these years. She is. She's just joy. And so I try to experience anything I do from the perspective of joy first, whether it be in new friendships or a new gym or I always am like, Ooh, this is going to be fun. And that's what my writing is about. It's about how do I celebrate us? How do I celebrate myself? How do I celebrate these stories? And I learned that from my mother.

Noor Tagouri (43:01):

That's so beautiful. I mean, you're really repping something that's so much bigger than yourself now through your writing and through your business. And it's just not that we should ever think this way, but it's like, I wonder if your story was any different from when you were younger, if we would have been able to, if it would've had the same trajectory in how you executed or how you ended up creating the art that you create.

Hawa Hassan (43:30):

Yeah, I mean, I'm just so thankful that things shook out the way that they did. Totally. Because I stayed in Somalia. I probably would be married had I ended up living with my mom all those years. I would've raised all her kids. Where now I have very, I'm very independent. I have a life that is based on how I want to create. What kind of community does I want to build, who does I want to love? Yeah. It's very much so different than that of my siblings. And so I'm very thankful. Cause I know that I stayed in Kenya. What is now wouldn't have been.

Noor Tagouri (44:16):

Have you ever been back to Kenya or Somalia?

Hawa Hassan (44:18):

Oh yeah. I was just actually in Kenya not long ago for Christmas, but I haven't been back to Somalia. I'm hoping to go this year.

Noor Tagouri (44:27):

Yeah. How do you feel about that trip?

Hawa Hassan (44:30):

I just see my dad, he just had a kid for the first time outside of my mom. So all these years my dad has only had five children and my mom has 10, five of their second husband and five with my father. And so I want to go meet my little sister and I want to see his life. He's a camel herder. Wow. So I'm like, I want to experience the camels.

Noor Tagouri (44:55):

Do you ever talk to him about that?

Hawa Hassan (44:56):

Yeah. Oh yeah. I'll show you photos after. Sometimes he sends me updates.

Noor Tagouri (45:01):

What is the most interesting thing that you've learned about camel hurting?

Hawa Hassan (45:06):

Oh, it's a big business. I know. I wish I could tell you. It's like, oh, he tells me that the milk is good for eczema and that it's great for, it's a great sleep aid. He tells me those kind of things, but it's a big business,

Noor Tagouri (45:20):

So that's so interesting. Well, I'm thinking about how, maybe this is a little more personal, but how you essentially had to figure out who you were on your own terms because you weren't around family for so long. And now there's this air of certainty of today. I know how it was, how who Hawa is, and you've been able to have the space to do that. So when you engage with your family and your siblings and stuff today, is there, would you say a cultural difference? And if so, where do you find yourself meeting them and where do you find yourself pondering a little bit more?

Hawa Hassan (46:19):

Ooh, there's definitely a cultural difference between my siblings and I, even my mother and I. But the fabric of us is the same, which is so interesting. My family's hectic. 10 kids is a lot of people. And so we are a group of chaotic people, but I'm on the less chaotic side of things. And my mom always says, that's my white daughter.

(46:52):

That's what she says. I'm like, mom, you could say American. You don't have to. And it's because I will leave and go to yoga. I will. I never visit them and not go work out. I never visit them and not go for coffee in the morning alone. And they're not used to that. Yeah, they're used to getting up and getting right in the thick of mess. And so culturally, we're very different in that way. My family loves being around people. I'm very much a loner by nature and a lot of people don't know that about me, actually. I think people think I'm very social, which is a good facade, but I'm not that social. So culturally, we're really, really, really different. But the fabric of us is so similar and so I never not feel at home with them. They are my home.

Noor Tagouri (47:45):

What is your hope, what is your wish for future generations who feel disconnected from their ancestors and their elders?

Hawa Hassan (47:59):

I think my hope would be that anyone who feels disconnected is able to do the work to reconnect.

Noor Tagouri (48:04):

What does that look like?

Hawa Hassan (48:06):

Maybe it's going back, maybe it's a creating, I think it looks different for everyone. For me it was the going back, it was the sitting in the kitchens. It was the giving up my life in New York. It was the quitting my 10 year relationship. It was all these things. It was leaving Seattle. Had I never left Seattle, I don't know that I would have the life I have. I don't know that I would be so close to my mom. And so yeah, I always encourage people. I'm like, if you have doubts, go $2 in your pocket. Go get on the airplane, go sit somewhere, go talk to people and go connect and get off the internet. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (48:51):

That's the goal.

Hawa Hassan (48:53):

I know I really want to get off the internet.

Noor Tagouri (48:55):

I feel like I always talk about this with my friends, but I say my favorite use of the internet is the dinner that we had on Thursday. It's being able to figure out and connect people and be like, since it's almost like a contact profile and being like, Hey you, let's go hang out and meet. And then just the acknowledgement of a profile is not a person, A person is a person. So speaking of persons who is Hawa Hassan today?

Hawa Hassan (49:28):

Like this Saturday?

Noor Tagouri (49:29):

Like this Saturday, just today. Because every day, every day is a new day. So you can be a new person every day.

Hawa Hassan (49:38):

Today I would say I am someone who's incredibly content. I'm somebody who spends a lot of time trying to figure out how I can be better and do better. And I would say I'm somebody who just really enjoys my own company.

Noor Tagouri (50:01):

I can feel that.

Hawa Hassan (50:03):

Oh, thank you. I really feel that. Don't make me cry. I'm ready to drop a tear. Okay,

Noor Tagouri (50:08):

All right. The way we wrap up these conversations, and this has been such a special one, thank you so much for being so open. Is a fill in the blank. So if you really knew me, you would know. And then you can share one, two, or three things.

Hawa Hassan (50:27):

If you really knew me, you would know that I eat bananas with everything.

Noor Tagouri (50:33):

Just like plain bananas.

Hawa Hassan (50:35):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (50:35):

Perfect.

Hawa Hassan (50:37):

If you really knew me, you would know that I'm super athletic and I pride myself on that. If you really knew me, then you would know. I love traveling.

Noor Tagouri (50:54):

Thank you so much, Hawa.

Hawa Hassan (50:55):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (50:56):

If somebody had $2 in their pocket with the opportunity to travel anywhere in the world, where would you tell them to go to find themselves?

Hawa Hassan (51:05):

Oh, I would say anywhere where you want to connect. For me, the beginning of 2020 was El Salvador. I wanted to know more about El Salvador. So I went.

Noor Tagouri (51:18):

I'm very looking forward to the El Salvador chapter of this book.

Hawa Hassan (51:21):

I'm going to send you some photos that are going to, I'll send them to you today.

(51:26):

Thank you, Hawa.

(51:27):

 Thank you Noor.

*OUTRO*

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION.

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA.

EDITING BY NORAN MORSI.

Theme music by Portugal The Man, the song is called Thunderdome, Welcome to America, by Portugal. the Man.

EXTRA GRATITUDE TO OUR STORYTELLER HAWA HASSAN. ENJOY HER COOKBOOK "IN BIBI'S KITCHEN" CHECK OUT HER SHOW ON THE GOOD NETWORK "HAWA AT HOME" AND MAKE SURE YOU GET A BOTTLE OF HER AMAZING BASBAAS SAUCE. 

AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) Bobby Hundreds on Building Brands Around Community, Reclaiming Power with Web3, and Staying Relevant + Consistent, and Listening to Young People

3, 2, 1... 

The last time I sat down with my friend Bobby Hundreds in New York City, I was interviewing him on stage for his memoir book tour.  The conversation around his book this is not a t shirt, was so connected with him and with the audience that I remember vividly thinking - this would make a great podcast episode! And one pandemic later - we are finally here. Bobby Kim also known as Bobby Hundreds, is a bestselling author, photographer, artist, and the creative force that drives The Hundreds, a world-renowned streetwear brand. His work has been seen and worn by millions and he is known for his ability to shift culture. From his upbringing as one of the only Asian American kids in a mostly white and Latino community to his Southern California, punk adolescence to the brand’s explosive success. Bobby has become the bridge between generations in streetwear and design; and collaboration has always been his thing. Bobby's latest book recently dropped and it’s titled: NFTs Are a Scam. The Hundreds have been involved in web3 early on, and I’m really interested in what he has to say. This conversation is also featured in our latest At Your Service short film Noor D’Ays, and it documents how we build AYS. So you can check out that short film on YouTube or ays.media.  This is a big reunion for Bobby and I, and it feels like we picked up right where we left off. Enjoy this storytelling session on building brands around community, reclaiming power with Web3, and staying relevant. 

Noor Tagouri (00:23):

This is many years coming by the way.

Bobby Kim (00:26):

Many,

Noor Tagouri (00:26):

Yeah, many years coming.

Bobby Kim (00:29):

I feel like now I have closure on that segment of the pandemic.

Noor Tagouri (00:36):

Which part?

Bobby Kim (00:37):

This is all I, I've been waiting for this moment to close on

Noor Tagouri (00:44):

So the pandemic is done now to you? Yeah, because now we have reunited.

Bobby Kim (00:48):

Yeah. That's all I was trying to get back to.

Noor Tagouri (00:50):

Thank you. Truly.

Bobby Kim (00:51):

Because at some point we're going to have to reconnect, and that's when I'll call it on whatever that phase of Covid 19 was.

Noor Tagouri (01:00):

Well, it's funny because we were going to LA like every month. I remember at one point thinking, wow, I see you guys more than I see my own friends in New York.

Bobby Kim (01:09):

Oh my God. Yeah, totally.

Noor Tagouri (01:09):

Yeah. That's how, because we were, it definitely felt making such an effort. And this is the first time we're seeing you also just, hello. I'm so happy to see you.

Bobby Kim (01:22):

Yeah, I'm happy to see you too.

Noor Tagouri (01:23):

Bobby. We kick off these conversations with a simple question, how is your heart doing today?

Bobby Kim (01:30):

How's my heart doing? Oh boy. Today, right now?

Noor Tagouri (01:36):

Yeah, or however you received that question.

Bobby Kim (01:41):

I think my immediate response to that, off the top, my heart feels, and I don't know if your heart can feel as busy as your head does, but the heart definitely doesn't feel as settled as I would want it to be. And then there is weight there. I think as many, if not most of the people around me, there are a lot of stressors and anxieties and concerns. Whether you're a parent and you're thinking about your children, whether you're thinking about today it's relatively warm in New York and you're thinking of climate, woke up this morning, read some news about the economy because that's going to happen. And if you're younger, it's a fraught world and things are unpredictable and a little unstable these days. Very volatile. So

Noor Tagouri (02:42):

How does all that impact your insides?

Bobby Kim (02:44):

I definitely feel a lot of that as someone who probably is a bit of an empath. And I've always been relatively, I've been sensitive to especially community, but anyone around me and what they're going through, I kind of tend to absorb a lot of that. And so I think maybe that's what it is a lot of, I've heard a lot of difficult, I've had a lot of difficult conversations over the last week and friends who are going through breakups, divorces, questioning partnerships, and having troubles in personal and professional life. And I don't know, that sits with me too. So I think at the bottom part of my heart, the weight of it feels somewhere around there. And I would love to say that I'm feeling light and optimistic and hopeful. And I think maybe as a day progresses, especially if I'm around young people and someone who's really in spirited by their journey, that tends to rub off on me a bit. And so maybe that can turn around, but right now, that's probably to be transparent where my heart's at.

Noor Tagouri (04:07):

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability this morning. I revisited the conversation that you had with Nipsey Hussle in 2018 about community, and it felt like every single word that was shared between you two felt more relevant today, especially post pandemic, than maybe the first time I heard it years ago when it came out. And it's interesting because when people talk to you or refer to your work with the hundreds and just your impact in culture, a lot of language around trend and things that are very transient, things that are moving constantly. But there's also a very still component, which is the consistency in community building. And I was really carrying to heart something that Nipsey had said to you, which was that expansion or success doesn't always have to be expansion and wanting to grab all new clientele or new audience members and stuff.

(05:22):

And this is something that Adam and I hold very dearly without your service. It's like, how do we serve our core audience who shows up every time, and then trust that the work will speak for itself, that it'll spread on its own. And I've literally, with my own eyes, witnessed you engage with your community in that way and talk to them from this deep heart-centered place. And somehow you're able to maintain that and be a part of, I don't want to say the trend, but the trend in culture and have of a finger on the pulse of things. And it's funny because you always often talk about young people because you carry this essence of wanting to have an impact on people where they're at in their lives when their minds and hearts are still figuring things out. And I can feel that concern still coming from you today. So how do you balance all of that? How do you feel about all of this now?

Bobby Kim (06:30):

Yeah. Well, you touched on so many things there. I'm going to try to address 'em all.

Noor Tagouri (06:34):

You don't have to address 'em all. You can just respond however your heart speaks to you. Yeah, no, no, no.

Bobby Kim (06:38):

But I want to address 'em all.

Noor Tagouri (06:38):

Great. Yeah, go for it.

Bobby Kim (06:42):

And I haven't listened to that conversation with Nipsey since then, probably just because it's, yeah, it's, it haunts me a little bit.

Noor Tagouri (06:51):

Yeah, of course.

Bobby Kim (06:52):

So now that you're saying that, and I'm recalling some elements of what we were conversing about, I totally agree. I think we are more desperate and starved for community or connection than we ever have been. And I don't think it's just due to the pandemic and lockdowns. I think it has, we can blame the internet and the way that social algorithms are structured. We can blame the politicized environment. A lot of social issues bubbling to the surface, economic disparity, social disparity, and class disparity. There's many things that we can attribute to, I'm not here to diagnose what the problem is, but I am here to talk about what we can do moving forward, what we need to do in order to rectify and bridge some of these severed relationships. And I think that to your next point, we spent so many years collecting people. And that was probably one of the most sobering revelations in the first part of the pandemic for me, was that for the first time in my career, I was forced to stay home. I wasn't traveling like you and I, we both traveled so much and wasn't living out of a suitcase. I have two young children at home, married and sitting across from them every night and sharing a dinner and sharing breakfast and lunches and hanging out with them on Saturday afternoons consistently. And what I learned from all of that was that instead of going out into the world every day and trying to collect and assort different kinds of people, almost like as if they're trading cards or Pokemon

Noor Tagouri (08:50):

NFTs,

Bobby Kim (08:51):

Are there

(08:52):

They're like

(08:53):

Pokemon. I have an entire universe. I have an ocean of people in front of me that I've yet to explore. And so that was very humbling. And once I realized I could probably sit here for a thousand years with, at that time he was probably, my older son was probably 10. So I could probably sit here for a thousand years with my 10 year old and still not learn and explore all of the complexities of who he is as a person. And meanwhile, I'm going out and trying to find 10,000 friends or trying to accrue 10,000 more followers when one person was always enough. And it was a really, really meaningful lesson for me that it was this, speaking of meaningful, I had been on this meaning list pursuit for so long, especially because of social and because of the way the internet was set up of trying to evangelize and trying to recruit as many people into my world as possible.

(10:03):

And meanwhile, I have five people in my community, 15, 500, whatever it is, it's enough. And yesterday we threw an event here in New York and we just did a quick little ice cream social thing, and we asked everyone to come out. Our brand has been around for 20 years, so that's multiple generations now of people whose lives we've touched and different types of relationships we've built with what started out as customers and consumers. And then some of these people became staff, some of them became family, but they're all community in different ways. And it was just amazing to see. There were people that were showing up who just found out about the hundreds, or just read my book at some point this year, and were like, oh, it's you. I just listened to a podcast by you and this was my first time getting to meet you.

(11:00):

And then there were people that were showing up that were like, Hey, do you remember me from this other ice cream social we threw eight years ago? And I'm like, I do remember you. Yeah. Pull up the photo. I remember this moment, we had this conversation, people, kids that we sold to, clothes in a t-shirts and street wear when they were growing up, who were showing up with their children. There was a guy who showed up and he was like, this is my son. And I named him after Adam Baum, which is our mascot. And so I'm like, this is probably all I ever needed was this guy or this woman and this individual. And instead, I got lost in the sauce of trying to, I need 5 million followers. And so I think if we just begin there, this is a very short story, long way of me just saying, if we can just begin there and remember that one person, two people, five people, is enough for a community, then it becomes very clear.

Noor Tagouri (12:01):

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. 

Noor Tagouri (12:45):

It's funny because that concept itself feels so radical because it's going against what we're constantly being trained to do, which is want more and want bigger numbers. And I often think about why we put in-person or virtual events on, and what comes, what comes to mind is often to translate those numbers and into actual humans to remember that there are actual people behind those numbers. And we hosted a virtual event a couple of nights ago, and this woman that I see, this was our third one doing third time doing it. And this woman who I saw every year there, she had a question. So I called on her and I was like, it's so great to see you here again. And she was from Spain, and she was so taken aback that I had remembered. And I was like, you, when you engage with somebody in conversation face to face, and you have a meaningful connection, I mean, I'm not going to say everyone's going to remember every single person, of course, because everyone, people have things that are happening in their minds. But to me at least, and I can hear this in what you're saying too, when people come out to support your work and are essentially a part of the team because they're wearing you with them, there's a reminder of why you chose to be in the service industry to begin with. Because I really do consider what we do a service, and it's focused on community building. And so an ice cream social is such a great way to do it. But yeah, these reminders, so it's interest.

(14:28):

So okay, when I have conversations with people about this, it seems like we're all on the same page, or the sentiment is similar amongst creatives and people who are trying to build community. But when we talk about it, it's almost still from this perspective of, but the tech around us doesn't, tech doesn't always support that, or the trends around us doesn't always support that, or the culture doesn't support that. But like what we're seeing is this hunger and actually people finding ways to be a part of community. So is it just how we're framing this conversation and actually a lot more community connection is happening, or is it that this is just a minority?

Bobby Kim (15:13):

What's just a minority?

Noor Tagouri (15:14):

That being able to build community in real life and remember who we're trying to be of service people, I don't want to say people like us, but in the work that we're engaging on the ground in translating those numbers into human beings and realizing that this core audience, these are who we've been trying to serve the whole time.

**REP AD** [00:16:02]

Bobby Kim (15:35):

Yeah. I think we need, I, if we start from a place of being mindful of using community in the human sense versus attempting to frame it as a marketing ploy, which is what right. Has transpired over the last several years. It's probably the buzziest marketing word I've heard, especially over the pandemic, is a sense of community. And that served me and a business. That's because I just written a book about building a brand around community. So then everyone was starting to come to me to say, oh, you tell us how you do it. How do we build brands around community? And well, this is where it's going to get thorny and a bit difficult to figure out if we start approaching it from the sense of how do we build business and profit off of that? That's a totally different thing. And it's fine customer acquisition, it's just marketing advertising. These elements have always existed as part of brand building, so that's important too. But let's not conflate the two community. And circling back to my point earlier, it can be as few as one person.

(16:59):

And really what we're talking about is bridging human and meaningful connections with people where you aren't treating them as customers or even as fans, but someone who is in the boat with you in working with you. And so I've never, for those who aren't familiar with the way that we established our brand, I grew up in the hardcore scene. And if you visit any of these, attend any concerts in these little punk shows, it's really hard to discern sometimes who's the singer and who's a fan. The often the vocalist will jump into the mosh pit and then the microphone will get ripped out of his hands and someone else will be singing. And then you realize that everybody in the room for that moment at least, or for that evening, is part of the band and definitely a part of the memory that is made that night.

(17:56):

It's not just up to the five people that are standing on a higher stage. And it's not a hierarchy between we have a voice and you'll listen to what we have to say. And here you are down here and you have to abide by what we're doing. We're all going to be involved in where this conversation's going to go. And so that's my philosophy still. 20 years ago, that's how we wanted to build the brand. And 20 years later, I still think that's the right way to approach how to build a company.

Noor Tagouri (18:35):

Thank you for sharing that. So something that I feel like you were on the forefront of talking about from when at least it hit my timeline, is NFTs. And the reason I was going to say, I'm not trying to talk about NFTs themselves, but as somebody who has, is evolving their brand and is keeping a listening ear to how you can better be of service to your community, where does Web three and NFTs come into place, and how does that potentially play a role in your personal relationship with relevance?

Bobby Kim (19:21):

Yeah, I definitely didn't get involved in web three. What's probably the more marketing friendly word of saying NFTs these days?

Noor Tagouri (19:33):

I know

Bobby Kim (19:35):

All of a sudden to be begin, there was even a moment where NFTs became digital collectibles, because there's so much stigma around NFTs. Immediately people started thinking of 5 million monkey pictures and people cheating each other and pyramid schemes. So then everyone's just like, we can't use that word anymore. We're going to use digital collectible. So let's just talk about web three. But I'm kind of unabashedly talk about NFTs because I don't really care, but

Noor Tagouri (20:04):

Well, you're also writing a book on them.

Bobby Kim (20:06):

So what I do, I did. I did. And it's dropping on May 16th.

Noor Tagouri (20:10):

Oh, it's already Congratulations.

Bobby Kim (20:12):

So this is perfect.

Noor Tagouri (20:13):

Yeah. Great. See

Bobby Kim (20:15):

Pre-order the book. But yeah, the book actually covers my journey into this space in the last two to three years. And we didn't enter it because we thought it was, again, a marketing decision. It wasn't a ploy for us to try to find relevance and culture any of that, because to be fair, it wasn't cool back then. And it's definitely not any cooler now to be into that world. What inspired us and what stoked us was, well, first of all, here's this dynamic technology. It's just an innovative new path that we can explore. I've always been really tantalized by anything that moves in tech. To me, there's always been this narrative that tech is exists on one side and art and culture and anything cool is on the other, right? There's like this canyon between Silicon Valley and Silicon Beach, like SF and LA are worlds apart supposedly.

(21:14):

But of course that's not true. Fashion actually came from technology. Like tailoring was the first real sense of technology. And even in that, you got to identity and personal art, and that was all managed through the technology of tailoring. And then when we were starting in the early two thousands, I used blog technology to not only connect with my audience, but also to be heard. And so technology actually facilitated a lot of my drains and visions, and especially my art over the, my career. And so here was maybe perhaps a next wave of what that could be. At first, I was really confused by it, and then I really hated it. And then with some parts of it, I'm still really turned off by. But I think what really, really appealed to me was the sense of, for the first time, our community can actually not just have a sense of ownership, but a real ownership in how this brand performs.

(22:22):

And that was such, it seems crazy to think that it was a revolutionary thought at the time be, and to me, it's already an, of course, it's an obvious, we need this. I think over the next 10 to 20 years, we're all going to look back and be like, can you believe there was a time where brands and businesses were structured that there was such inequality and a disparity and an imbalance between the owners in between the consumers. And as I was writing the white paper for the projects that we were starting to build, at the time, I was looking down at my sneakers and I was wearing probably some Nikes at the time. And I have these swooshes on the sides of my feet, and every day I'm walking around Los Angeles or New York and giving free advertising to this massive corporation that's become the biggest sportswear giant in the world.

(23:17):

I don't get paid by Nike. I'm not sponsored or endorsed, but here I am giving them advertising because for in exchange, I get social clout. I, it's a social badge and it somehow gives me cache in my immediate circles, but I'm not necessarily making any more money by giving this brand free advertising every day. And once you realize that tech has been doing the same thing for the last 10 to 15 years of our lives, you look around and everybody's working for a big tech company. These guys at the top are bazillionaires while the rest of us have relatively stayed the same or have lost over the last decade of our lives. And then you consider why, how did these companies get so big, these apps and these social networks? Well, they're all existing and building off of content that we're providing for free. I saw something crazy yesterday. I went into someone's Instagram feed, and I don't know when this happened. If you go into their grid and you're scrolling through their grid, they're throwing advertising

Noor Tagouri (24:28):

Yeah, no, I know. I noticed that. That's wild. That's wild. It's really frustrating.

Bobby Kim (24:33):

That is my personal page. And you are selling advertising against it. And again,

Noor Tagouri (24:39):

You're not making it

Bobby Kim (24:40):

From it financially. And I think we need to address the fact that whenever I talk about the financial upside of all this, of tech, and you deserve this much and you deserve a little bit of ownership and need to make some money, there is this immediate reaction from a lot of the arts community of like, oh, why does it always need to be about money? And I'm like, that's also a narrative that these people in power have brainwashed a lot of young creators with, oh, you should do it for love. We don't want to see you get rich. You should be, be a starving artist. Right? It's always starving artists. It's always working artists. It's always poor artists. That's the narrative. And you never hear of starving art gallery or poor clothing company, or it's like, no, these people are the ones that are benefiting and you need to stay hungry.

(25:37):

And that's how you're pure as an a creative person. And that's not fair because a lot of people don't have the means to live and are having to manage multiple jobs just in order to survive, to create work. But they believe, oh, my art doesn't cost anything, or No one wants to pay me for my art. And obviously it's not true because your art has always been making someone money. It wasn't you. Every jpeg you're posting online somewhere, a caption, a witty caption, you're writing on your Instagram or putting on your Twitter or something, you're posting on TikTok, someone was making money. It wasn't you. It was big tech. And that's why they've become trillionaires and zillionaires. Yeah. While you're like, wait, I still can't afford to buy a house in my city. And so Web three nailed that right on the head. And when I looked at it, again from a brand perspective, that for 20 years I've been building a brand around this idea of community and telling all of my fans and audience, audience and my consumers, oh yeah, you all have a sense of ownership.

(26:47):

Yeah. To them, it was almost like it becomes very tribal. It's like a sports team. Hey, we're rooting for you. We're all on the hundredth side. As they do better, we do better. But that was also a lie. And I'm here living with the guilt as the founder of this company saying like, oh, I'm getting to eat. Well, I'm getting to travel. Well, my career is flourishing. I'm getting more access. I'm making more money in different avenues, and then I'm seeing my customers going just consuming and consuming and consuming. And so here was the first time that I was like, oh, we can actually reframe this relationship between purveyor and consumer. And again, I think we're actually getting to a place where this idea is going to become much more normalized. I don't think we're going to get to a point where the idea of 5 million monkey JPEGs are going to be normalized.

(27:34):

That was never my thought going into NFTs. That part of what Web three is, is really sensational and probably appeals and considers about 500 to 5,000 people in the world. But the elements of Web three and NFTs that I think are universal and that can actually change the world, are this idea of redistribution of wealth, redistribution of power, reframing the relationships between payers and consumers, business owners and business supporters. We should all somehow be involved in the same conversation. And I'm seeing parts of it pop up here and there, whether it's called Web three or not, there's a movie out right now called Air, and it's,

Noor Tagouri (28:18):

Yeah, we saw it.

Bobby Kim (28:19):

I think it's the most artist royalties movie ever. That's actually the premise of it, of Viola Davis who's playing Michael Jordan's mother saying, cool, we'll do this contract. Right. I don't think I'm spell anything because this is actually the premise of the entire movie, but she's just like, Michael's going to be involved in the upside of this forever. And that was, to me, I was like, that's web three. We just didn't call it that then. And that changed what endorsements look like.

Noor Tagouri (28:49):

And it sounded extremely radical at the time.

Bobby Kim (28:52):

It sounded extremely radical at the time, and it sounded extremely radical. Now we've gone this far and people are still like, oh yeah, we should be involved in that. And again, it's these corporations and the clothing brands like mine all take ownership in that, that are telling everyone like, no, no, we're the brand. We make the money and you consume. And that just doesn't seem fair. Again, Michael Jordan was the influencer. He does have a right to share in the upside because he is partially the reason why the shoes sell so well. And just because you are not Michael Jordan with 3 billion fans around the world, doesn't mean you're not also an influencer. You can just have three fans. You can have three family members. You don't even need to have social media. You go to your barbershop, you know,

Noor Tagouri (29:38):

Tell 'em about what you're wearing

Bobby Kim (29:39):

And they see what you're wearing and you're an interested person

Noor Tagouri (29:41):

Totally.

Bobby Kim (29:42):

They're going to be like, oh, I want that. Just the colors you're wearing in front of me that's inspiring me and how I design. And when I go out, if I see something like that today in a store, I might buy it. So you now just inspired me. Right. So we all actually deserve, I'm not saying we deserve 50% of a product, but 0.001%. Yeah. Because we did have some say in some, some involvement in the success of whatever that product was.

**ISY AD BREAK** [00:30:56]

Noor Tagouri (30:08):

That's what an amazing way to reframe it. I really, I'm really looking forward to the book and I, it's like we needed to hear that from you specifically. Because I also think that part of equation though is like, okay, if we start from the source, is people feeling worthy enough to think that they matter enough to be a part of the bigger picture and because of the society that we live in, being a very capitalistic one, specifically part of the medicine of, or I shouldn't say medicine, but part of the poison of consuming, oh my gosh, that's a circus survive song. The only difference between medicine and poison is in the dose. I just got it. Part of the poison of consuming is that we tell people to consume because they need it, because they're not enough. And I think that this reframe is like, we want you to be a part of it because not only are you more than enough, but you're also integral to our process.

(31:11):

And we want you to know that we want to honor you in that, and we want you to know that we value you. We can sit there and be like, yeah, we value as a customer, we value as a client. But at the end of the day, what that typically meant was because, because you pay us. But now we're like, because you make us and we are honored to be of service to you. And so when people are struggling with that concept of self-worth and value, but also, and don't entirely see a place for them in this next era, what are some questions that you feel like those people should ask themselves or contemplate on so that they can find their way?

Bobby Kim (31:55):

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think everyone does need to realize that the companies and the brands and the corporations could not exist without them. And I think we need to begin there. I used to speak, there's a chain store that we don't sell to anymore with The Hundreds, but they used to invite us to this huge conference every year, and all the founders from all the skate and street wear brands would stand up on stage in front of thousands of kids who actually sold the product in all those stores. It was a once a year conference, and I would watch all the, and everyone would get to go up and give a little speech. And so you had the founder of XYZ Surf company or the XYZ skate brand, cool street wear guy going up on stage and be like, yo, what's up? And all the fans are cheering him on, and they're like, you can see all the customers like, oh my God, that's who we get to sell product for every day.

(32:52):

And then I'm like, that guy's so famous, and he's so rich and he's so important. And it just really weirded me out. Again, having come from the punk scene where I'm like, this is so backwards. These people should be on stage. And so that's what I said when I went out on stage, I was like, actually, I should be in the audience and you should be on the stage because I couldn't be here without you. I'm just a guy who drew pictures and makes clothes. I could have just been doing this for an audience of one in a garage as a hobby, but because of you and your belief, this company actually turned into something. So if you take anything out of what this podcast is today, I want you to leave with when, whenever you're looking at, especially the higher corporations, and it's not just in fashion, it's in tech, it's in food, it's in hospitality. Just remember that you are always the one that's in the position of power. And when I give advice on young brands doing collaborations and they're figuring out their contracts and agreements, I'm like, they need you more than you need them always. You can always walk away. You're going to be fine. But they have a lot more to lose, and their success is predicated on you continuing to exist in sport. 

Noor Tagouri (34:24):

I hear what you're saying, and I think to most people it's just like, yeah, but again, boiling it down to financials, but they don't need us. I need them because I need that contract, or I need that gig because I'm an independent freelance person and they have a lot of money. So yeah, fair. And this is even speaking from experience too, especially when you're either being tokenized or you're just kind of going through a roster, and this is why I left the agency that I was at, is it, I don't like this feeling of being like, well, we can just get somebody else from our catalog and there's no relationship building. And so now our approach is always through relationship building. And in that way it's, I guess they need you maybe because of the intention and the uniqueness that you may bring as a person as well. Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I, it's, I hear what you're saying and I know it's true, but sometimes it doesn't feel true

Bobby Kim (35:29):

That you're enough.

Noor Tagouri (35:31):

Well, that's an interesting that they need us more than we need them.

Bobby Kim (35:38):

I think it's totally fair what you were saying that especially if you are just trying to survive, it's a little bit easier for me to say this at my stage in my career. Screw them. You don't need 'em. Just follow your dreams. And that's not exactly what it is that I'm trying to say. There's always a balance and a dance, right. And especially in streetwear, I get asked a lot about high fashion and luxury stealing and pirate being off of what we've built. And I'm like, you have to remember that we also do need them in a way because they're on the main stage. So when you go to Coachella, Coachella's this weekend in Los Angeles, there's a main stage. Those are the acts on the bill. When you see the fire, the headliners are in size like 25 font. And then there's smaller apps, more independent emerging artists that are lowering the bill in smaller font.

(36:48):

And I don't look at them as one is more important than the other in the sense of any type of value. Got it. I look at 'em as they all need to be there together in the ecosystem for it to remain healthy and balanced. And so people come for the headliners, but then they learn about the emerging artists. The emerging artists also keep the headliners grounded and more personable where it doesn't feel like Coachella has become this corporate sold out event. And then for the younger emerging artists on the bill, the smaller names, they like the big brands being on there because that gives them a sense of validation. And people are like, wow, you're performing on the same day that Frank Ocean is. Maybe you're the next Frank Ocean. And so it is a little bit of a relationship, and there is a little bit of a dance where you do have to remember that you do need some of these bigger companies in order to be the platform for you not only to aspire to get up there, but also to want to take it down and be the next version of that.

(38:00):

And they give you exposure. So

Noor Tagouri (38:03):

It feels more like an ecosystem rather than a pyramid

Bobby Kim (38:06):

Almost. Yeah, it is an ecosystem. I think it's all, there have been points in my career and it actually toggles back and forth where on this small name on the belt, and then there are seasons where I’m the big name, and to me, it doesn't make a difference. I'm just like, this is where I'm at right now. And when you're a small artist on the bill and you're living, you're touring out of the van, there's something very uncomfortable but also very magical and shock about that.

Noor Tagouri (38:35):

Yeah.

Bobby Kim (38:36):

And you're making, creating an incredible, profound work. And when you're the big name at the top, all the radio show concerts that you have to do, and the talk shows you got to go on, you got to perform the same song over and over and over again. It's very uncreative. And so it's just matter of considering the perspective and remembering how relative everything is, that it's all happening for certain reasons. Even in the book that I wrote in 2019, my memoir, and this is more a matter of timing, but there are anecdotes in there that took 20 years to write. And then there are anecdotes that I talk about that happen within 20 minutes, and they have equal weight in the book. Each of 'em have four or five pages each dedicated to them. And so in the story of my life, it's not like one was more momentous than the other. Just because one took 20 minutes and one took 20 years doesn't mean that one was more valuable than the other. I needed both of them to happen in order to tell this broader story. And so I think it's the same. We've, when we were starting out in with The Hundreds, I were really intentional about going out. We'd go to the trade shows and turn down orders over and over and over again. There's an anecdote in my book where we covered our rest

Noor Tagouri (39:58):

I know. I love the story

Bobby Kim (40:00):

With tarps because we were like, we don't need you. I had the luxury to say that at the time I was making money writing and doing other stuff on the side. And so when a big massive department store Macy's was coming and saying, Hey, we're going to give you a hundred thousand dollars right now if you open this up and let's let us look at your t-shirts. We were like, no, we don't need you. You need us. And the more I state save you off, the more you're going to be demand around my product. Yeah. I can wait two to three years for you to come back and write me a million dollar order, which never happened because we never decided to sell in. But I, I'm hyper aware that we had the luxury to say that. It's more of the mindset that I'm just trying to keep reminding people of that sometimes in these negotiations with these corporations, or if you're going out for a job and you feel like they're kind of taking one over on you, it's just the mindset. Yeah. There's no shame in taking the check or kind of compromising a little bit pay if you feel like, Hey, I really need to do this. It's okay if, yeah. This is just a journey. It's a process as you build your career.

Noor Tagouri (41:09):

Yeah. And what really stood out to me with what you just said is the toggling back and forth. So toggling back and forth between being a headliner and an emerging artist status, or the 25 font and the 12 font, it's so important because the journey isn't linear. So it's not like you're going from being the 12 font on the bill to the 25, and then you just keep going up and up. And that's where things get a little bit tricky is I think that people, when they are no longer headlining, they feel this, I'm not relevant anymore. I'm really whatever. What do I have to do? Instead of it being like, no, you just keep doing you. Because especially when you're in a creative space, it takes a lot of time and processing of your work to be able to make the important art that you need to make.

(42:08):

So you need those breaks. And I love how you described it as when you're headlining and you have to do all the talk shows and you have to sing the song, same song over and over and over again, and then you miss the days where you're just, for me, it's being in the cabin and painting and writing and just figuring out what it is that I need to get out. And so the toggling back and forth is also a complete reframe because it equalizes every experience and it just says it's all relevant, it's all good, it's all perfect. It's all meant to be. And I find that to feel really light and reassuring. I've found peace with that myself in the last, during the pandemic specifically. And it's also brought up a lot of questions that I've had to ask myself about how I'm engaging with the work or what my actual intention in doing the work I'm doing is. And then the broader questions of, and what do you believe about all of this? And who are you really? So I'd love to ask you, what is a question that you are currently asking yourself as you are in the toggle mode?

**AYS AD BREAK** [00:44:35]

Bobby Kim (43:11):

Yeah. Wow. And as you're hearing me talk about this, I'm hearing myself talk about it too, right?

Noor Tagouri (43:18):

Yeah.

Bobby Kim (43:19):

This is part, it's like therapy.

Noor Tagouri (43:21):

Welcome. Right. Welcome to the chair. Yes.

Bobby Kim (43:24):

Yeah. I love this chair. So where am I at right now in

Noor Tagouri (43:31):

A question you're asking yourself right now? And this can also be completely related to something other than what we were just talking about.

Bobby Kim (43:39):

Yeah. A question I'm asking myself right now. I had dinner with Aria from Complex, I don't know if Aria, she's I think the editorial creative director right now. And she's like, all right, Bobby, you're a futurist. What are you concerned about with the future? And I was just like, I don't know what a futurist is. I don't know if I necessarily subscribe to that identity. And I do like to pontificate on what's happening. Word is going to go, and especially for culture and tech, of course. But I am actually most concerned with what's happening in the immediate right now, and especially around youth culture and young people all the time. And so I think questions I'm asking right now have a lot to do with, for me, the most pertinent is what street wear and where is street wear in 2023, and what does it mean?

(44:37):

How do you even define it? We're in New York right now, and I spent the last week here, and there was a time, not that long ago, in my opinion, seven years ago, six years ago, where every other person on the street was wearing something supreme. This was the city in the heart of Supreme. And I was very hard pressed to find that brand. I saw more LA brands present in New York this week than I did New York, which was also, it used to be unheard of. And then this is not just a knock against Supreme. It's actually a question against across the entire street world culture, because sneakers are also having a little bit of an identity crisis. And there's also existential threats against just larger fashion of what is this and why are people still doing this, and what is the purpose? Where do we sell it?

(45:26):

Where do you even go to buy it these days? Yeah. Why are you buying brands? Who's running these brands? So I think about that actually more than ever. And it's not from a hopeless place. It actually is from a really spirited and hopeful place. I think that we may be looking at a renaissance of what street work can be. It's going to be redefined. I think that by new players, and it'll be forged as and cast as a completely new thing in the next generation. And I'm really looking forward to that. I want to know what it is. But I think streetwear has always just been code for it young, a youthful attitude and questioning establishment and challenging norms. And there's an amazing brand out of LA right now called Fugazi. And they made this street wear shirt where they were making fun of corporate street wearing, knocked a bunch of brands.

(46:24):

And one of us was us on it. And I was just like, this is awesome that this still exists, that young people are still getting angry and they're still feeling they're being marginalized and unheard, and they want to say, Hey, this is my time to be heard now, and I want the world to see what I have to say. That never dies. And so I think I'm so captivated by young people because I was, I'm stuck there too. And I think that time as vulnerable as it, I don't necessarily ever want to go back to being that young again. But there is something really beautiful and dynamic about watching people in that window of time in their lives, and they have just a completely fresh perspective and are inspired and they feel invincible. And I think we can all really learn from that. It helps me every day to wake up and remember why it is that we do what we do. And I don't feel like I age because I'm surrounded by and listening constantly to what young people are doing. And they're just constantly keeping the compass straight and keeping me on the path.

Noor Tagouri (47:42):

That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. I received all of that as a person who I feel like is in the thick of it and just needed that reminder. And

Bobby Kim (47:54):

I had dinner the other night that you guys couldn't make.

Noor Tagouri (47:58):

I know. I'm sorry.

Bobby Kim (47:58):

And you were there in spirit.

Noor Tagouri (48:01):

In spirit.

Bobby Kim (48:02):

And a lot of my friends now are around my age a little bit younger. I just turned 43, which is wild

Noor Tagouri (48:09):

To say. I used to be my school bus number, ohoh. So it's a lucky number number.

Bobby Kim (48:13):

There's also 10 blocks number, but there's a lot of people in their thirties. But there are also some people in the twenties that were at the table. Everyone was really drawn to them. And if you sat on the edge of the table where there were more people around my age and listened to what we were talking about, it sounded a lot how the beginning of this conversation was What's on your heart? And I'm like, I'm just really worried. I'm a little anxious. I'm concerned right about the future, about my family, what's going to happen? Cause I know so much now. And knowing, does it mean that you're any more empowered? In fact, I think it can actually weaken and harm. And I think that's point to the internet to see why a lot of people are struggling with so much anxieties because there's so much information. So you think, yeah, oh, because I have all this knowledge and history, I think it's going to happen tomorrow. Nobody knows what's going on.

Noor Tagouri (49:06):

Nobody knows.

Bobby Kim (49:07):

But the 20 year olds at the table, the way that they were looking at their lives or careers in the world, they're perfectly aware of what's going on. But they were like, we can change it and we can impact culture. And we can actually intro like, no one's heard me speak yet. Yeah. Right. And so once you hear what I have to say, yep, I'm going to move the needle. And they weren't being foolish or they weren't being naive. It was true. And so I'm listening to them going, I still can do that too. We all still can do that. It's just at some point along the way, we were like, ah, everyone's heard what I have to say, or I've done everything I can do, and I only got this far. It's like, no, you're the worst

Noor Tagouri (49:49):

But you're evolving every single day. You're a different person every single day. Yes. It's something I, I've been thinking about a lot since our rep investigation is I think people, especially in their twenties or even younger, feel a lot of pressure to change the world that we're leaving behind and that we're going to be able to survive in ourselves. And this takeaway that I had, this finding that I had in the investigation is, and I know we've like, there's a cliche quote of if you want to change the world, you have to start with yourself. But I never actually fully understood what that meant until more recently when I realized that the way that I changed the world when I changed myself is that by finally knowing myself and engaging with my own story and knowing my history and knowing who I am and where I come from and understand why I see the world the way that I see it, then my entire world view changes because I begin to see you as an individual story and that person as an individual story and that person.

(51:01):

And then you're more comforted in the fact that you don't know and that everything is a truth in front of you and you can just continue to pursue it. But when our own worldview expands in that way, then the world literally changes because our world literally changes, and we are also interconnected. And so I really have been finding the more you ask yourself the really big questions of who am I today in this very moment, the more that the world around you really fundamentally begins to change. I mean, mine has been, is I, I've been saying the last couple of days, I feel like I'm in a metamorphosis right now. Wow. I'm really in the biggest change of my life. And I hope that that continues forever and ever. But I feel grateful that I'm getting to know myself in a kind and compassionate and open way.

Bobby Kim (51:52):

And it feels positive. This metamorphosis, or

Noor Tagouri (51:55):

Is it feels today. It does. It feels scary today. It feels positive. Yeah.

Bobby Kim (51:59):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (51:59):

Five days ago I was

Bobby Kim (52:01):

Scary

Noor Tagouri (52:01):

Screaming and crying and freaking out. Every single day is new. Every single day is, what is it? Who this podcast interview that I listened to on being with Krista Tibit, I think, no, no, no. Just kidding. This was in my yoga practice a couple of days ago. The instructor literally said that her teacher told her It's a new day and it's never been used before. What are you going to do? It would do with it. It's a new day and it's never been used before. And it's just like, oh yeah. Every day you get to figure it out. And in the words of my 12 year old brother who a few days ago told me he figured out the meaning of life. He said, the meaning of life is exactly what you make of it, because all you do every day is make decisions. And so therefore, it's what you make of it. And I was like, you're right. Yeah. So we get to figure that out.

Bobby Kim (52:55):

Yeah. I love that.

Noor Tagouri (52:57):

So Bobby, the way we close out these conversations, very simple. Fill in the blank, if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three things.

Bobby Kim (53:09):

Okay. If you really knew me, you would know. I've never posted my family on my social media or my public social media. So people who've met my wife or my children, I think they get to really know the real me. Yeah. I did that very early on because from the age of 23, so much of my life was online. I needed a compartmentalize and keep things for me. I, I think I surprised a lot of people because of what my life presents as and what I typically spend my hours doing, which is I just sit in a corner and I read a lot and I write poetry and sounds boring.

Noor Tagouri (53:58):

Sounds like the life to me.

Bobby Kim (53:59):

It is. It's a really amazing life. And nothing makes me happier than getting to reunite with old friends and just sitting in a room and having a conversation. We could be anywhere in the world, and it's just feels like everything was meant for this. Yeah. I don't know. I think if you really want to get to know me, subscribe to my Substack

Noor Tagouri (54:27):

Oh, yeah.

Bobby Kim (54:28):

And then just write about this stuff all the time.

Noor Tagouri (54:29):

I love your writing so much. Thanks. It's so true and clear and passionate and urgent with a sense of like, but we're all good.

Bobby Kim (54:41):

Thanks. Once in a while, one out of a hundred times when someone compliments me and says something very nice about my work, it is to address my writing. And if they read my book or something I wrote in my Substack and or they grew up reading the blog and they're just like, that meant the most. That's when I feel really seen.

Noor Tagouri (55:05):

Yeah, totally.

Bobby Kim (55:06):

And I think it's because as when you're a writer, it's unadulterated you. Speaker, also host. And you can't outsource that work. And as I've built the company over the years, I have a lot of people who helped me. Some people compliment me. I'm like, yo, I love these new shorts that you guys made. I'm like, I didn't actually design that pattern. Yeah. I sat at the top and I may have directed something or said, Hey, let's try something. Or it have been inspired by things that we've built along the way, and it keep related to this process, but there was probably 30 different people that were involved in this from design to production to sales and marketing. And so I'd love to take ownership in that, but I'm like, this is a community project. This was all of us that made these shorts. So I'll take it on behalf of the team. But when someone see, says that they were really touched by something I wrote, I'm like, oh, you and I like our hearts touched. That's such an amazing feeling.

Noor Tagouri (56:14):

Yeah. Well then it's also because it's Bobby Kim and not Bobby Hundreds.

Bobby Kim (56:19):

Yeah. It's like, that's me. And it's vulnerable and it's naked, and it's like scally, honest me. So that feels good.

Noor Tagouri (56:31):

I'm so happy to see you.

Bobby Kim (56:32):

So happy to see you too.

Noor Tagouri (56:33):

Thanks for doing the podcast.

Bobby Kim (56:36):

Thanks for doing it in this tiny hotel room.

Noor Tagouri (56:38):

Yeah.

Bobby Kim (56:40):

You guys made it work.

Noor Tagouri (56:41):

No, we made it work. And I feel like, the conversation is happened all these years later, and I'm happy it happened from this place.

Bobby Kim (56:49):

Yeah, me too.

Noor Tagouri (56:50):

Thanks, Bobby.

Bobby Kim (56:52):

Hold on. Don't put that down. I wanted to take a photo of you this whole time.

Noor Tagouri (56:55):

Oh, okay.

Bobby Kim (56:57):

Yes. It was just like the light. It was really good.

Noor Tagouri (57:02):

I know. I don't like what videos did you guys get because they were definitely all back lit.

Bobby Kim (57:10):

The light is hitting nicely. Got it.

(57:19):

Love you, Bobby. Love you guys.

(Transcript) Seth Godin on Creating Significance, Indoctrination and Fear, Finding Leadership Opportunities, and Why He Won't Write a Memoir

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

Okay. All right.

Seth Godin (00:00:02):

We have speed. You know why they say that?

Noor Tagouri (00:00:04):

I know that. I know when it's said, but why do they say that?

Seth Godin (00:00:08):

Because in the old days, a piece of tape was moving through the machine and you had to wait for it to speed up because if you started too soon, the first couple seconds. So speed means it's turning.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:20):

Wait, so why do we still say it?

Seth Godin (00:00:22):

The same reason we say MOS when we're shooting video without sound because that's German for meets alt sound and that's because those are the pioneers of recording.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:33):

But isn't it interesting that we say things that we don't actually know why?

Seth Godin (00:00:39):

Dialing a phone? Yeah, I get it

Noor Tagouri (00:00:41):

Dialing.

Adam Khafif (00:00:42):

What was your newsletter the other day? Was standing and smiling for a photo.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:46):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, we loved that one. That was really funny. Alright Seth. Wow, this is very exciting. We've actually been talking about how we wanted this conversation to happen for a while and I feel like on the heels of Song of Significance it feels like divine timing, perfect timing And this is the first podcast interview that I've ever invited Adam onto as well. So welcome Adam.

Seth Godin (00:01:12):

He is the key to me saying yes. You brought Adam as bait.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:14):

Yes, that's true. I did do that. I did. And the reason I wanted Adam here and to be in conversation Us three together is because this is how our conversations tend to happen and they are some of my favorite ones and I think that it could be really be of service for us to share one of them out loud. And we're so excited to be here and talk to you and to celebrate you.

Seth Godin (00:01:36):

I'm so glad you came. We're missing Helene cause she's at work, but she'll be here in spirit.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:41):

It's okay. We're going to stop By The Way bakery after this just to make sure we have a little taste. All right. So the way we kick off is the simple question. How is your heart doing today?

Seth Godin (00:01:54):

My heart feels taken care of. It is vibrating in sync with a lot of people around me. And even if it wasn't the second that you folks walked in the door, it got back. So all is good.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:10):

All is good. I'm so grateful. So on our way here, we were listening to the Akimbo podcast episode that you recently published called Origin Stories. And I laughed because, so this is how I'm going to tell you how Adam and I listened to Akimbo. We will go through the feed and we'll read the very clever and fun and enticing title names and then anyone that makes our heart jump or piques our interest or makes our eyebrow raises or whatever it is. So we pick it based on how we're feeling that day. And today, when I picked Origin stories, I laughed because after I finished reading a Song of Significance, when you sent us the draft, I felt so overwhelmed with this is the closest thing that I've read to of your writing that's been published that feels like you are actually wearing your heart on your sleeve. If I were to someone, what is Seth Godin as a person, it would be like it's this book. And yet somehow even within that book, you don't even share the origin story of how it came to be. And I have to ask one, why don't we hear more of those personal origin stories when you share so many others of phenomenal people around the world, but you are also one of them. And two, if you're comfortable, could you share the origin story of this book?

Seth Godin (00:03:44):

Well, thank you for teeing up so many important things that I want to talk about. Ursula Burns used to be the CEO of Xerox and she was the first black woman to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And when she was interviewed, people would go on and on about her talent and her insight and her journey. And she said, the reason you're doing that is because if I'm not super special, you have a lot of explaining to do because only a super, super special black woman could possibly end up in my shoes. She said, I'm not super special, I just showed up. And for me, I acknowledge the revealing nature of so much social media that this is my experience, this is who I am, I'm being transparent. The problem with that is it lets other people off the hook because if you grew up living outside in a tent in Utica, New York, well then I couldn't possibly achieve what you did because I didn't have that or if I had your benefits.

(00:04:54):

So what I've tried to discipline myself to do with the work is the work to say, let me shine a light for you on what is possible. If you could see it this way, regardless of the fact that I won the parent lottery or didn't. And so the purpose of the Origin Story podcast that you listen to, which I recorded a long time ago, is to point out that we are constantly telling ourselves our origin story. Spider-Man is always bringing up that radioactive spider thing. Superman can't get over the fact that Krypton is not around anymore. So if your origin story is serving you, if you say, well, I'm the kind of person that never backs down from a generous challenge, keep going. But if your origin story is well, I need to keep reiterating how bitter I am, then it might not be making your day better.

(00:05:48):

So I wanted to just help people see their origin story. So in the case of the origin of this book, yeah, there's more of the person I seek to be personally in this book than in many of my other books that on a good day I try to be the person who wrote this book. I don't think that authenticity is a useful thing in social media because no one's authentic. Everyone is constantly putting on a shelf from the minute they get out of bed and put on their clothes. If they're a guy, if they shaved, well what? What's authentic that you have a mustache? You don't have a mustache. That's a choice. So I don't think people want you to be authentic. I think they want you to be consistent. They want Chuck Norris to be Chuck Norris, not whoever he feels like being today.

(00:06:40):

So in the case of this book, what I've been watching for many years and which was highlighted for me by the Carbon Almanac and which recent events in which billionaires are humiliating their employees in firing them in public and acting in ridiculous ways, is that industrialism the system that made us all rich has really run its course. And we have been indoctrinated, not just people who are from North America, but people all around the world have been indoctrinated from a young age to ask, will this be on the test? How do I get picked? How do I please the boss? Yeah, what's the minimum amount of work I can do to get away with today? Because they're going to steal everything they can from me. And so we end up building a culture that supports industry as opposed to saying we need industry to support culture. And now that so many of us have faced mortality during the pandemic, someone we know got sick or passed away, people are looking and saying, is this the whole point? Is this all there? Is that we should burn as much oil as we can and then I'll die in a cataclysm? And what I wanted to take one last chance to do is say to people, we can sing a different song, a song of meaning and connection and humanity, but only if we talk about it. So that was a rant, but you set me up. So thanks

Noor Tagouri (00:08:03):

No, there's a rant. It's exactly what we need to be talking about. We need to hear. And I appreciate you bringing up the authenticity point because you were the first person who shared that perspective with me on authenticity. That really challenged my own origin story because I feel like even as someone who started their career at 15 and authentic was always the word that was being used to describe me. And until now I still get asked about authenticity and do you think authenticity is still is important to storytelling? And I realized that most people have different definitions of the word authentic. I mean when you're talking about none of us are authentic, the moment we get up and we're always in this state of performance, it actually brings me to think of, and I understand the importance of consistency and knowing that your teammate is going to show up and they're going to do the work even if they're in a bad mood or even if they're having whatever day they're keeping the promises that they're making.

(00:09:08):

And also, I remember when I was younger and I was speaking on authenticity, I used to say something about how you can only really be authentic to yourself, but even that is a choice. Even being authentic to yourself is something like you have to be willing to ask yourself, who am I? And sometimes that is even more terrifying because then you really can't get away from, we can perform to ourselves all we want, but there are signals in our body that our body sends us to remind us, no, this isn't true. This doesn't feel true. And so what is your relationship with authenticity to one's self and engaging in asking that question and how does that contribute to how someone yourself included can find meaning in the work that you do?

Seth Godin (00:10:02):

So there's this expression, no place I'd rather be, but if we break it into pieces, wherever you are is where you want to be unless you're in a prison camp or unless you're an abused spouse. And so you're there maybe under stress, maybe with tension because there's something you need out of it. You made a promise, you made a commitment, you need to get paid. You said you would, even though you don't want to be there, but you still want to be there because you're showed up. And if you spend enough days in a row in places where you're thinking to yourself, there's another place I'd rather be, yeah, that stress is going to wear you out. And so when we think about what's the best job you ever had, or what's a good relationship at some level beyond the short term joy of what I want as a toddler this minute ice cream, please. We need to build a life where there's no place we'd rather be than what we're doing right now. So I can just say, there's no place. This has been on my calendar for weeks and there's no place I'd rather be right now than talking to the two of you.

Noor Tagouri (00:11:20):

Thank you. Likewise. So does that mean you're being authentic to yourself today?

Seth Godin (00:11:25):

It means that if I had grown up in a different century or a different country, I'd be a different self. But I decided that I was going to be the kind of teacher that I am and publish the kind of work I do a long time ago. The implications of that change, what I see as important, what I think of as meaning, what I think of as authentic.

Noor Tagouri (00:11:50):

So what's your definition of it then?

Seth Godin (00:11:53):

Well, what I have, when you asked me about the voice in the book, I think a lot about what would Seth Goden the author of the Song of Significance say right now and do right now? Because when I am consistent with that, I feel like I'm a better version of me and I actually have a better day.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:13):

So consistency is still showing up as more important in this scenario with yourself too because, and the aspect of writing also plays a really big role because you are essentially not only writing for whoever your audience is and to be of service to other people, but it's also to be of service to yourself to remind yourself this is the best version that I can be.

Seth Godin (00:12:35):

Oh yeah. I mean, so Victor Frankel wrote something that was really profound. He said, just imagine that this is the second time through the life you're living, not the first, and you get the next five minutes over again.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:52):

Well,

Seth Godin (00:12:53):

How would you like to spend them? The next time someone yells at you in a parking lot? It's a really useful lesson.

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Are you comfortable sharing the actual origin story of Song of Significance, or is that something you're?

Seth Godin (00:13:40):

Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. So I don't write books because I have to write books.

Noor Tagouri (00:13:47):

Yes, tell us about

Seth Godin (00:13:48):

I can reach more people with a blog post by a factor of 10 in one day than spending a year of my life writing a book. So I only write books. This is the last six books I've written. I only write books if I have no choice. If there is an idea

Noor Tagouri (00:14:04):

That's perfect, it's fine

Seth Godin (00:14:04):

Okay. If there's an idea that arises that will not let me go, that can only be served by a book. And so I had no book in mind. The Carbon Almanac wasn't a book I wrote. I coordinated it and I was totally fine saying we're okay. I don't need to write another book. And I needed for family reasons to be on the West Coast. And I got invited just coincidentally by a guy named Dan to help run a climate conference for 30 entrepreneurs who are building regenerative carbon corporations. And so Dan, who's in Australia, was coordinating this thing. And it happened to be a week before the event I needed to be at. So I flew to San Francisco, ran an electric car, drove up north, and I hadn't been in a group like that in years because I haven't flown in a long time.

(00:15:01):

And it was a moving couple of days. And the person who was doing it with me, who I had never met before, taught me about bees. And as soon as he talked to me about Jacqueline Freeman's concept of the song of Increase, I just was totally taken by it. So that night they screwed up my hotel room and I ended up not getting to place. I ended up sleeping till two o'clock in the morning cause I was pretty punch drunk. I downloaded Jacqueline's book and then the next day drove eight and a half hours down to Los Angeles listening to it. And the story of the song of Increase about how bees are organized without an organizer coordinated, without a coordinator building these resilient systems where each bee is the full version of the bee itself really connected with me. I saw a friend and I drove down to San Clemente to see another friend who is going through some stuff and woke up, cause I don't do time zones very well at five o'clock in the morning and went for a swim in the ocean.

(00:16:09):

And while I was swimming, I came as close to drowning as you can. The tide was pulling me faster than a motorboat. It was stunning. And I thought, well, that's the end of that. It's been a good run. I thought about how much I was going to miss my family, but I was like, okay, that's the end of that. And then for whatever reason, I decided I had an important story to tell and found something in me to swim back to shore. I just made it. And the next day I got a note from Dan, the reason he's in Australia, and the reason he wasn't able to make it to the conference is that his 10 year old daughter was born with a birth defect and they had tried to build a life that would support her and she had just passed away. And so for Frankie and for so many people who have not gotten what they needed, I wanted to just show up and say, we need to think about this. We need to think about what are we doing here? Where is our humanity? Not how do we make work soft? How do we just tell people to do whatever you want? But the opposite, how do we make promises and keep them and do work that we're proud of for people who care?

Noor Tagouri (00:17:31):

Thank you so much for sharing that. So honored. Adam, how did you feel the first time you finished reading the book? You had marked it all up.

Adam Khafif (00:17:41):

I did. I did mark it all up. Well, I think I told you the story also. It didn't me like a normal Seth Godin book where I read stories or how you turn case studies into beautiful language. I didn't know what I was taking away from it. And then the next week of life and work unfolded and I just kept hearing leadership opportunities in my head. And I felt like for me, that was one of the big takeaways. I can read it over and over, but I felt like you always kept coming back to opportunities for leadership, which comes back to choice of course. And choosing to lead. And I am still finding that it's unfolding. 

Noor Tagouri (00:18:33):

I feel like it was also that it's like when somebody puts words to the experiences or the inklings that you already have, it doesn't just propel you forward in that direction and affirm that like, oh, this was this inkling, this sound. It was based in something was rooted in something much bigger. It was that it was like, oh, the way that I'm approaching being a leader, which feels really different and is actually in some ways in response to how we've been treated or in response to being in an agency or being signed with an agency in response to working for a big media corporation in response to all of the noise that makes people feel less important, that makes people feel like they're not good enough. That purposely puts people down so that they can literally feel like, well, at least in the room, or at least I'm here, or at least I'm doing the work.

(00:19:29):

And I felt one of the things that we had been talking about was just how that was never enough. And it's not about lack of gratitude in that it wasn't enough. It was that it just never felt human enough and it never felt like it actually honored the very limited time that we have here. And you can see it and you can feel it. And I feel like I felt that a lot post pandemic, I have just a specific memory of the first fashion month right after the pandemic, and I wasn't really certain of if I wanted to attend or anything. And I went just to support a couple of friends and I saw everyone's face and they felt like they were in shock, but refused to acknowledge what had just happened. And so nobody, besides the fact that they, the reaction of, wow, that was wild.

(00:20:22):

Nobody actually went beyond that went deeper. And I remember this shock that we had, which was like, oh, we have to do something about this because we can't just have had this massive, there. There is very few experiences that can be bigger than what we just experienced in our lifetime that would allow us this time because the world was shut down and that we were all in the state of uncertainty and fear. And if that happens, and it's still not enough for us to get out of our heads and be like, Hey, how are, are we doing something that matters? Is this drama? Is this really, is this all necessary? Then maybe the problems always with us. And it w I'm, I'm not saying that it's not, there aren't problems and issues that in the systems of how we work, but if we want to actually do something about it, it has to start with us. And so in reading Song of Significance, I felt like Adam and I were the exact audience that it was written for. It was like, Hey guys, if you're trying to take on this responsibility of being a leader, here are ways that I feel like can help guide you in that. And not only in how you lead, but how you are of service to those who choose to sign up to work with you.

Adam Khafif (00:21:41):

What I can even add to that,

(00:21:45):

Coming back to how it's come, it all comes back to you. And I was listening to a Kimbo this morning and it was about distribution and media distribution and gaining an audience and the numbers. And I was immediately thinking of how I can do that for my own business and just thinking strategically. And when I came away from so of significance, it was almost as if you were saying, you can read all of my past work and strategize, but at the end of the day, it comes down to you and how you said you have one last thing that you wanted to share. It sounds, it feels like that one last at the end of the movie where the person looks and it's like the answer is just you. And then yeah, you can only strategize so much. And then even for the Covid example that you just gave with Fashion Week, we had few examples of how to lead in that moment. And so there was nothing to strategize around or to,

Noor Tagouri (00:22:36):

Maybe it was less, it wasn't even that. It was few examples. It was that there was a lot of space where it was, I think now I don't, I was like, why did I just bring that up? But I realized it's because it was the first time, because then we put that virtual conference on with Philip because it was the first time we were like, oh wait, there's space here. We're seeing directly that nobody actually knows what to do right now. So you get to just choose to do something about it. And we're just going to choose to do what we know would be best of service to,

Adam Khafif (00:23:02):

And you have to acknowledge that there's sometimes nothing to be done externally. You actually, at the end of the day, you can do all these things and it's still, you have to recognize opportunity for leadership, which is a lot harder for me personally than recognizing opportunity for business growth or for anything even in relationship matters. It's more the openness of leadership opportunities.

Seth Godin (00:23:26):

So if we're going to talk about fashion for a minute, and you two know way more than I do,

Noor Tagouri (00:23:30):

I don't know, I'm wearing a chef coat designed by you, Seth. So you tell me

Seth Godin (00:23:34):

Well, the fashion industry, which now has created billionaires, that it is actually more valuable in many ways than any other industry. When you think about Louis Vuitton, people like that as an industry, what it does is it says to its customers, you need to dress like this or you will look stupid. What it says to its employees is you need to follow this person and listen to this magazine or you will look stupid. And what it says to the people who make this stuff is you need to work for a dollar an hour or else you're fired. And so there's an enormous number of cogs in the system and it makes all of them lesser that people might be attracted to it because it feels like a place to speak your authentic truth and to matter. But human nature and culture, the desire to fit in, to not take too much of a risk, pushes every component of it toward this mind numbing industry.

(00:24:43):

And what first struck me about the two of you is that you could do way more of that. And you instead have said, Nope, we want to lead. We don't want to manage. We want to invent and narrate. We don't want to be the victim of the system. But you feel the pressure every day to be cogs in the system, the people who are sponsoring you or listening to you or the Instagram, all of it is, well, this would go better if we did it more like the normal way. And so as human beings, we started down this path because we needed a roof and healthcare and food, but for many people we solved that problem. So now what are we doing? And now what we're doing is playing this weird game on a game, on a game, on a game, all about winning the race to the bottom. And the problem with the race to the bottom is you might win. 

Noor Tagouri (00:26:07):

Okay, I want to sit with that for a bit, but thank you for sharing that, Seth. What's a question that you're asking yourself these days?

Seth Godin (00:26:21):

It has been a long journey to earn the benefit of the doubt from a bunch of people to be able to narrate for them to turn on lights. And I don't want to waste that, and I need to find the place that combines impact and leverage with my ability to make promises and keep them. So because I don't get on planes for work anymore, I'm not doing what I used to do, which is five or 10 speeches a month, somewhere that was very pleasing because it's ridiculously good way to make an income. But it's also, I was busy. No one could say, what are you doing? I could say, well, I was just in this country, in this country. Now I'm intentionally doing less of the busy work around the work and that creates space to do the work. So how do I open the door for say, the 1900 people at the Carbon Almanac or my friends Eva and Alene to build something on their behalf where I can help open doors for them. It doesn't have to be the Seth Show all the time. And so I'm asking myself hard questions about what's the best way for me to spend Monday because I don't get Monday over again. What's the best, where are people enrolled in a journey of working their way forward? Because I'm going to do better work with people who are enrolled than trying to just yell at people on the street corner who don't get it.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:53):

It's funny that you mentioned the Seth show because, and I mentioned this a little bit in the beginning and I noticed how you answer around just speaking directly about you and your experiences, and you still give obviously a very thoughtful answer, but it doesn't feel like the Seth showed to me. I know that it's Seth’s blog and people know who you are and know your name and maybe even Adam had to read your books at Babson for school. But sure. But the words, it's the work and it feels like it's always been the work and the words, and I say this because my approach to storytelling and even the investigations that I do, I do, I very clearly and openly say, Hey, I'm telling the story because I need it. And then there's all, there's like this layer of the personal journey and then there's the layer of the story and the work, and I figure out what that looks like. So it can best be of service to whoever we have in mind. But how is it that all of these years that you've been doing the work that you're doing, and it feels like, I don't want to say that you still get criticism or people who have whatever, it's not that it's not about the noise or the feedback or the non-believers per se

Seth Godin (00:29:18):

But so I've never had my picture on the cover of a fashion magazine, but I think you'll understand what it feels like when someone points out to you that your work with Adam has created a whole new generation of journalists, a whole new generation of people who are speaking up, even if they're not from the traditionally dominant sector of society. And that's only because you showed up. And so it may feel like sometimes you're getting paid or asked to put on the Noor show, but in fact you are building a whole new foundation for people. And that's incredibly generous and really important. And so you, I'm trying to do that with intent and because the world is different than it was five years ago, I have more space to do that. But that is what I'm spending most of my days thinking about. You don't have to spend most of your days thinking about it, it just naturally happens. But I think over time it'll become more clear to you how many people are using your example to remind themselves that they're capable of doing this work.

Noor Tagouri (00:30:38):

Well, thank you for saying that. It's in, it's, it's exactly why I've been reflecting on this more lately for REP. When we decided to do REP, I went against the recommendation of some of the people working on it and decided I didn't want to put my name on the cover and I didn't want to put my photo on the cover even though I knew that would exponentially grow the show. But that wasn't the point. And it's like the people who received REP, and now we have REP club and we have people from around the world who are actually engaging and going on their own rep journeys felt like it was theirs. And so that was the point that I was trying to get to with like you saying the Seth Show. But it always felt like, and it still feels like the work has always been for the people. And so I wonder if it's this conscious awareness that you know of wanting to take a step back because then you see the work flourish and the way that you may be intended for it to, or it feels like it's more potent almost. But have you ever considered sharing more of yourself in the work? Do you ever think that one day you would write a memoir?

Seth Godin (00:31:51):

No.

Noor Tagouri (00:31:53):

And you've consciously made that decision because

Seth Godin (00:31:57):

It's so, it's tempting, but it's a lazy shortcut.

Noor Tagouri (00:32:06):

What do you mean a lazy shortcut though? Because it's just another thing that would be of benefit

Seth Godin (00:32:10):

Yeah, but it's a no. So on the wall behind you, there's a picture of Annie Kenny, and it's one of the biggest photographs in my office. Who was Annie Kenny? Annie Kenny is the reason you were here today. When Annie Kenny was 19 years old, she went to a meeting in England where her member of parliament was speaking, Winston Churchill was there too. He was only 25. And he said, the member of parliament said any questions. And Annie stood up and said, when are women going to get the right to vote? And he said, little woman, please sit down. And she did it three more times and he had her arrested. And while she was in jail, the suffragette movement took off in England and women got the vote as a direct result of people talking about connecting and creating new circles around the little seed that Annie amplified. And that's what heroism looks like. And the problem with someone like me telling their story with lots of little adventures in it is that it's about me and I only want to write about the reader. And that's because me writing about Annie Kenny gives people the fuel to imagine what they could do a hundred years later. Whereas me writing about me limits possibilities. It doesn't open possibilities.

Adam Khafif (00:33:51):

Does it limit or is it just not as impactful?

Seth Godin (00:33:54):

Well, I would spend time talking about and promoting something instead of something else. And so

Noor Tagouri (00:34:03):

It's a testament to how you choose to use your time. Yeah, it's just very simple. I feel like I, I've been thinking about it a lot more deeply and you're just like, yeah, but limited time, remember? And this is how I want to choose to do it. So then what is your own personal relationship with your story? How do you personally engage with your evolution, with how you rethink things with how you're grown? Because I know that that has been such a big part of how you value your time is rethinking things and asking questions over and over again. And then once in a while we get something like Song of Significance that's birthed from all of those experiences. But I would love to know how you do that with yourself.

Seth Godin (00:34:46):

I've only been inside one person's head, so I don't know if other people have the same noise in their head. There's a word that was just invented called Sonder. S O N D E R. Yes. Spell that word. Which is the moment you realize that other people have a noise in their head too. And all you can imagine is their noises like your noise, but of course it can't be. Yeah. So a woman had a tantrum in a parking lot yesterday, called me a bunch of names, and then drove off in a huff and probably ran somebody over who knows in a court of law who was right. I was right. I didn't do anything wrong. This woman had some other noise going on that had nothing to do with me. And in the old days, I wouldn't have realized that I would've just been constantly, what did I do that caused this to happen?

(00:35:36):

Now I'm not in the position of saying, so it's her fault. Instead I'm saying she has a story. I have a story. There are two stories. But when I need to make decisions, and I think that's mostly what I do for a living is make decisions. I think about intentionally what would Seth do? And I've written down enough of my decisions that there's a track record. I just right trained Jet Chat G P T in 9,000 of my posts. So I can ask it what's Seth would do, and it knows because it's talks in my voice and has read all of them. So what else? But what it comes right down to it. This is totally changeable. It's not easy, it's not convenient, it's really difficult. It will upset the people around you, but these are sunk costs. These are a gift from your former self. Your former self thought it was a good idea to be X, Y, or Z. And you're allowed to say to that for myself, no, thank you. I really appreciate you offering me this gift, this law degree, this spiritual practice, this reputation. No thank you. I'd rather not accept that gift from you because it's a gift. And as soon as it stops serving, you should decline it.

AD BREAK - ISEEYOU FOUNDATION 

Noor Tagouri (00:37:01):

How do you think, what do you think the biggest way people get in their own way to be able to recognize their own sense of worth and value and know that they are worthy of singing the song of significance?

Seth Godin (00:37:19):

Okay, so there's two parts. The first part is the indoctrination. Yeah. Because if it was invented today, no one would sign up for it if we just launched from scratch, right? Industrialism or Facebook or no one would say, yeah, sign me up. It happened gradually. But the second thing about sonder is when in doubt, look for the fear always. It could be the fear of death. It could be the fear of being left out. It could be the fear of a lack of status. It could be the fear of a lack of sexual connection, always the fear. What's always going to come from somebody who is screaming at a clerk? Well, they fear that they will never be respected again. They fear that their peers will think less than them because they didn't get this ticket that they were sure always, always look for the fear.

(00:38:11):

And because we live in this digital logic-based world, we litigate it. We say, no, no, no. I can show you hjthe facts about why you were wrong, but this person's not arguing about facts. They're arguing about their emotions. If you want to understand why people vote the way they do, look for the fear, look for status, look for affiliation, both of which are driven by fear. And even people who have nothing to fear, who have good health, plenty of money in the bank, people around them who support them, they're still making decisions based on status and affiliation, which are driven by fear.

Noor Tagouri (00:38:50):

What was the fear it, was there a fear that showed up for you repeatedly when you were first starting out, that you faced head on and you're more aware of today?

Seth Godin (00:39:02):

Oh, I was really aware of my fear at the beginning. What was it? But I to didn't answer your previous question, which is, okay, why don't people sign up to lead? Why don't they sign up to do something of significance? Because they're afraid the world will say yes, and then they'll be on the hook. And fish don't like being on the hook. Humans should want to be on the hook. But what we got indoctrinated in from the time we're four years old is you can get in trouble if you make a promise. So better to just lay low. Don't raise your hand. So in my case, before we sat down, I was showing you the stuff I did at the software company. I was going at a very fast pace in 1983. Yeah, I'd been the second person in my business school class. I lucked into a job that didn't look as good as it was when I took it.

(00:39:54):

I'd been offered a summer job at Parker Brothers, which was my dream because I love games and a little tiny software company and everything said I should have taken the Parker Brothers job and for whatever reason didn't, two weeks after the summer started, Parker Brothers laid off 200 people in the division. Every person I would've lasted two weeks, but at this other software company, they gave me all of these opportunities and I ran with them. But I left there to get married in 1986. And there were no companies just like that to work at in New York. I never wanted to be my own boss. I just wanted someone to leave me alone and let me make stuff. Yeah, that's all. Yeah. And so I went to the book business because someone I worked with, the software company said he would help me. He never returned a phone call ever again after I arrived in New York.

(00:40:45):

So he never helped me, but I had already committed here I was. And I sold my first book the first day for $5,000, which I had a split with my co-author. And then I got 800 rejection letters in a row over the course of a year. That meant every day I would open my mailbox. They had mailboxes in those days and there would be five letters. They had stamps in those days. And five times a day I would get a letter that said, we looked at your proposal. We hate it. We hope you die. And this went on and on and on. And that gets right to imposter syndrome. It gets right to feeling like a fraud. And it gets right to, I'm going to have to go get a job at a bank as a teller because it's over. And that fear fueled me for 20 years. And so in, what was it in 2002 when I got invited to speak at Ted, that's not enough to make the fear go away because it'd be, you never know. And so this feeling of inadequacy causes you to sometimes push forward or do projects that ultimately you might not want. I did the book email addresses as the Rich and Famous, which was the first book about email like that. And I listed the email addresses of famous people.

(00:42:09):

It was super clever. It wasn't worth me putting my name and months of my life into writing this book, but someone was going to buy it. And I was a cog in the system. And there are people who have far less than I do who weren't making compromises like that. And so the big wake up call for me was one day saying, yeah, but if you keep making these compromises because you're worried that 20 years ago you were going to go out of business, you're going to spend your whole life doing that. Don't do that anymore. News story

Noor Tagouri (00:42:46):

I think a lot about how we are always in the process. And I think the more that you get used to surrendering in the process, the more you trust that the art will come together when it's meant to that the writing, that the book, that the project, whatever it is, and Song of Significance was written in two weeks.

Seth Godin (00:43:09):

Well, it was written in seven years, but it was typed in two weeks

Noor Tagouri (00:43:14):

Typed in two weeks. But that's what I'm saying, the process took all of this time. But in those seven years and more, you're having all the experiences and you're learning what surrender looks like. You're learning what receiving and creating this space that you need to type out the book looks like. Does that,

Seth Godin (00:43:36):

Yeah. But I think we need to put a very clear marker for people who are listening to this, which is you don't create space by making smaller promises and retreating. You create space by making bigger promises and keeping them. Ooh. So after the email addresses is the rich and famous, I spent five years getting maybe more, getting Stanley Kaplan, the person named Stanley Kaplan to sell me the rights to do Kaplan test prep books. I got them into that business, and

Noor Tagouri (00:44:14):

I used one of those.

Seth Godin (00:44:15):

Exactly.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:16):

Sarah's like, yeah, me too.

Seth Godin (00:44:17):

It was a great deal for them. And it was a very big project. I hired six full-time people to work on it, and it was a lot of work, but they decided they wanted a better deal. And the way that they were going to get a better deal was by cutting me out. And they sent lawyers to every meeting we had with the publisher, and they were undermining all of the work we wanted to do. We were getting very good at dealing with a difficult partner.

(00:44:47):

So I called together the team, and I said, this is a third of our revenue, but we're getting very good at dealing with difficult people. I'd like to just say, you win and give them all the rights and walk away. And to my team's credit, they all backed me, even though it meant we might not be able to employ everybody. And in less than 60 days, we replaced all of that business with even bigger projects because we became the kind of institution that was willing to earn our freedom. So we sold the information, please Business Almanac. And we sold very complicated, difficult books that sold lots and lots of copies because we knew that we could now do something that wasn't a book like the Smiley Dictionary, which I made in a weekend, but was a very complicated, difficult promise to make. So we put ourselves into a different category by making a different promise.

(00:45:44):

And so when I became a professional speaker, if you're don't have anything booked on Tuesday, and someone calls you up and offers you $500 to speak on Tuesday, well you don't have anything else on Tuesday. You should say yes. No, you shouldn't because now you're a $500 speaker. And so you say no when you're ready to have a really expensive keynote speaker. That's me. I bring a different thing to that. Yeah, thank you very much. And so there were a lot of Tuesdays where there was nothing because you're making a different promise to a different audience of people. This is what I do if you want it, but it's tempting in this day and age, and a lot of people we see online are trying to persuade us that if you just get a nice floppy hat and go on Instagram, you can become some sort of magical influencer. That's not the truth. The truth is, if you create value for people at a different level, you'll get compensated at a different level

Noor Tagouri (00:46:37):

Yeah. Yeah. I, and I feel like we've definitely been, it was a risky decision for us to make, to start saying no, even when we needed it. And I remember the first time we did that, do you remember in the Pandemic the first time we did that? And we got an offer for something, and it was pretty good money, and it was the pandemic. And so we had lost all of the speaking gigs. And I was like, no, because if we say yes to this, then it makes me this influencer, whatever that I didn't want to be, and we just need to have a little bit more trust. And we said no to it, and it hurt. And then literally that week, I think we were had a brand come to us and be like, Hey, this pandemic is happening. People are really afraid.

(00:47:28):

We don't know what to do, but we think maybe you guys do. And we were able to helped us stay afloat. And really, I always go back to that now because I've been thinking, I interviewed our friend Bobby Kim or Bobby Hundreds yesterday, and he was talking about, he was using the metaphor of the Coachella lineup bill and how there's the headliner and then the emerging artists or whatever. But how he sees in his own career, sometimes you're the headliner, sometimes you're like, you're the emerging artist, and you just toggle back and forth between them because it's not always fun to be a headliner. You don't want to be singing the same songs over and over and over again on talk shows. Sometimes it's more fun to be in the recording studio and getting creative, but there's this notion that we don't realize that it's about the toggling back and forth.

(00:48:13):

It's not meant to be like you start small and then you get big. And you really helped us so much with that, because I think I say the phrase smallest viable audience once a week to the team. Cause now I know who they are. I know them by name. I've hugged them. You've met them. And I'm like, these are the core people that we serve. They show up every time, and I'm blown away by it. And I'll literally say to Adam, if we can just get by and do this forever, that's the dream. Because I remember you sharing one time where when at, I think at one point had 60 employees, you were like, yeah, nah, this is not it. And said goodbye to that and realized expansion or success doesn't have to mean expansion. Success can just mean using your time exactly how you want.

Seth Godin (00:49:03):

Exactly. Well said.

Noor Tagouri (00:49:05):

Well, it's how you reflect on the advice that you give us. So I just want you to know, Hey, it's working. We share it all the time. We're so grateful for that. What is your relationship with asking questions to yourself?

Seth Godin (00:49:27):

I don't think that's my method.

Noor Tagouri (00:49:29):

Because you write a lot of questions. You share a lot of questions for us to think about

Seth Godin (00:49:33):

Yes, there's more than 300 questions in the book,

(00:49:37):

But I took symbolic logic in college. I think everyone should take symbolic logic. You can take it online. You've heard of that. You can take it online for free. Symbolic logic started with Aristotle has a belly button. Aristotle is a philosopher, therefore all philosophers have belly buttons. Well, clearly that's not true because having a belly button and being a philosopher aren't related, except in Aristotle's case. So if you think about logic as a series of sentences, can you then come to a conclusion? Symbolic logic says, let's boil it down to symbols. Aristotle is the letter A, and right. So we can just say A equals something, blah, blah. And you can write down the symbols, and then you can learn that there is one and only one true thing that can be determined from organizing these symbols. And this is what's missing from politics and rational discussion in so many ways. Because if you understand symbolic logic, right? If you say steel is a metal, all metals, rust, then it has to be true that steel will rust, right? Right. So when I'm trying to make a decision, I begin with the symbolic logic of it.

Noor Tagouri (00:51:05):

I love this. Okay, walk us through

Seth Godin (00:51:07):

Well, someone has done this, someone else has done this, someone else has done this. Much of the time doing this leads to that. So I'll lay something out and decide if that's a good plan or not. And then I will leave myself space. And in that space, which could last years the space, I am probably interrogating parts of my brain, but I don't do it in the form of formal questions. And then one day I feel like I have an insight. So the first time this really worked great for me was when we started one of the very first internet companies in 1990. That's before you were born. And it was taking us a year, nine months to a year to get a big company, to buy an email marketing campaign. That's a lot of sales calls. We couldn't sustain it. So I knew we needed a name for what we were doing, that if we had a name for what we were doing, and I could point symbolically other things that had been embraced by the world that had names, I said, so, oh my goodness, we need to have a name for this.

(00:52:19):

But then I didn't do anything for three days. And then Tuesday, I said, I'm getting in the shower, and when the hot water runs out, there will be a name. I'll stay in the shower as long as I need to until we have a name. And that's where permission marketing came from, which is, I knew what the project was, I just didn't know what the answer to the project was. And that phrase, permission marketing, led to a 30 billion industry. Two words, because that's what MailChimp does. They do permission marketing. What would you have called it if it wasn't called Permission Marketing? And now everyone, oh, I know what that is. Cause I know what marketing is. I know what permission is. It worked. But it can be something super trivial too. What's the best way? Should, should we drive from here to there? Should we take the bus from here to there, giving a speech in Washington dc? Should I take the train? There's a logical way to do the math. Maybe you don't have to wait on that, the answer. So no, I don't ask myself the question, but I try to establish the foundation to make a decision that I don't have words for.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:28):

Why are you laughing?

Adam Khafif (00:53:29):

That was the response to that question in the form of a Seth Godin

Noor Tagouri (00:53:37):

Next class. Do you have any questions? Do you have any thoughts? Do you have any shares?

AD BREAK - AYS REVIEW

Adam Khafif (00:53:43):

Well, out of curiosity, when it were talking about nine, the 1980s, when you wanted people to let you build things and leave you alone, what were you in the eighties? What did you want to build? What were you interested in? 

Seth Godin (00:54:05):

Building games

Adam Khafif (00:54:06):

Okay.

Seth Godin (00:54:07):

I love simple games. I can't play video games. I've made products about video games. They make me dizzy. The prisoner's dilemma, logical games. Games where human beings confront unstable equilibria and each other resonate with me. And I'm good at making those games. And so for me, a packaged book, the kind I used to make was a game. So if I give you the Smiley dictionary, which I wrote before, there were emojis, and you can see, oh, that's how you make a Mickey Mouse. You can now imagine what the next, I just gave you a bunch of tools to have fun. I opened the door for that. I didn't tell you the answer. I just created this environment. Or when I did the Perry Mason computer game, I knew who Perry Mason was. I knew what the music was. I knew who Earl Stanley Gardner was.

(00:55:06):

I had 200 books to choose from. What's the arc to get people to imagine themselves in this world? So that was really fun for me, and I felt like I had a unique competency, and I liked playing with how the symbols all fit together. I was talking to someone who has a nonprofit this morning, and she brought up the fundraising. She said, oh, I hate the fundraiser. And I said, do you think you're unique? Do you think there's anyone in the nonprofit world that likes fundraising, said, I can't wait to go back to raising money. No. That just comes with what you do. Yeah. And what I discovered is it's almost inconceivable that someone will say, go sit in this room and make up games and we'll leave you alone. Go sit in this room and come up with ideas for books, and we will leave you alone. That just doesn't happen. And so there's this other heavy lifting that comes with it as part of the deal. If you want to be in an economy that has some scarcity to it,

Noor Tagouri (00:56:05):

What's your current, favorite game to play?

Seth Godin (00:56:11):

So most of the people in my life don't like traditional games

Noor Tagouri (00:56:20):

Because my next question, not that was be it's game night. What are the games that you're bringing?

Seth Godin (00:56:25):

My friend Peter is one of the most decorated and celebrated game designers of all time. Wow. We went to Peter's house and I said, Hey Peter, you want to play a game? And his wife and my wife both said, no. So there's a game called Word Master Pro. Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:45):

I download that because of you

Seth Godin (00:56:46):

On the iPad. I play it every single day. What I love about Word Master Pro is I get to play it by myself. I'm not playing against some 12 year old remotely, so no one's cheating. And the rules are so perfect. You needed to invent the English language to have Scrabble work. But it does. The English language is exactly perfect. There's just the right number of two letter words. There's just the right feeling you get when you get a K or a U knowing that there aren't that many good things to do with it. Everything about Scrabble makes me happy, and I beat it at the expert level like two thirds of the time, which also makes me happy because if I beat it all of the time, I wouldn't play anymore. If I beat it, none of the time, I wouldn't play anymore. It's just Right. I strongly recommend Word Master Pro. And

Adam Khafif (00:57:38):

That's just Scrabble Mobile.

(00:57:40):

Yeah, basically. That's amazing. Do you journal personally?

Seth Godin (00:57:44):

I blog.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:45):

No, I know that you write every single day and we all get to read it

Seth Godin (00:57:49):

No, I used to. I did Morning Pages because my friend Brian said I had to. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:53):

And

Seth Godin (00:57:53):

After three weeks, there was just so much good stuff coming. I couldn't keep up, so I had to stop.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:01):

So you had to stop and just continue publishing whatever is

Seth Godin (00:58:04):

Yeah. I mean, there was too much for me to keep. I was going to have to hire a team to deal with all the stuff that was coming out of Morning Pages, and that was making me stressed.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:15):

But I think it's perfect for you because it's like, it's funny because now I'm coming full circle with this inner frustration that I had with Seth. Why doesn't Seth share all of these stories of his life to the world? And I'm like, oh, this is how he does it. This is really, actually truly how he does it, because this is how his brain physically works and his heart physically works. And we get it. And we receive it exactly as we're meant to. So I'll stop asking.

Seth Godin (00:58:42):

Well, I'm flattered. Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:47):

So final question and then one more little fill in the blank that we do. The final question is Adam and I's Adam I Is our company, our approach, our life, whatever. It's all it comes down to service and this phrase of at your service. And I think that that's also part of why we were so excited about Song of Significance because it had the bee on it and the Be is very important to us. And just this mindset of service not being something that is ever seen as a deficit, but only as something that's more, it is expansive and light. And I don't know if we ever told you how we named it at your service. But it was when I was working on Sold in America and I was spent four years investigating the sex trade in the US and I was in a very, very dark place and I wasn't doing well.

(00:59:39):

And we went to, I think this might be Sarah's first time hearing. That's funny. We, a teacher had invited me, a spiritual teacher who I had never really had a conversation with, had said, come out to Napa Valley, I host this retreat about the heart and this might be a good place for you to just kind of decompress. So my team was a little freaked out about it and I went because I, I did not really need to work. And it was the first time that I had ever experienced a spiritual community that it was just about service and heart work and just really what does it mean to show up in this world as a human being and lead with love and in service. And there's this one person who was there and he would, if he saw you, maybe if I just swallowed or something and he noticed maybe I be, I was thirsty.

(01:00:37):

He would run and go get a cup of water and he would bring it to you and I'd be like, thank you. And he'd be like, at your service. And he rushed to do this. And it wasn't a part of it was just this person who just rushed to do it. And I remember the first time it happened, I said to Adam, I'm so uncomfortable. Why did he say that? I almost was offended. I was like, I didn't ask you to do that. Why are you, but that was all me. That was all my own projection. That was all my, I don't want anybody to do anything for me. I to, I can figure things out for myself, but he was bringing me the cup of water because it made him happy and that he wanted to be of service. And I realized it was this mindset.

(01:01:19):

And so I took it upon myself as a challenge and Adam and I started trying to say it and get used to the phrase on our tongue. And at the more we would say it, the more we would mean it, the more my entire worldview changed. Where everything was an opportunity to be of service. And it was all an expansion. It was all something that made us feel lighter. It was always something that it wasn't ever a favor. It was this is how we we live. This is how we move. This is it. It just felt so different. And as somebody who loves words and who does work in service, what does the word service mean to you personally? And how do you think people who are running their own businesses, who are responsible for telling stories can rethink this concept of service to better be of service?

Seth Godin (01:02:20):

You know me too. Well, you asked me questions that I'm just going to dive in on.

(01:02:27):

When you set out to start the company with the name, I think what you meant to call it is two be of service, but you ended up calling it at your service and they mean two totally different things working out. Let me tell you why they mean two different things. Okay. And why you have grown into the incredible power of the second one. To be of service is about you. To be of service is about a posture of hospitality at your service is daring the recipient to earn it. To repay it. Whoa. To level up. So when you show up with REP, you're saying, yeah, we bled to make this for you. Now what are you going to do? Because this is at your service. We're not here to entertain you. God, we're here to challenge you to become what you are capable of. And I don't think that's what you started to do, but that is definitely what you have done.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:44):

Thank you for saying that. Thank you. My brain brain's. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:55):

Service to you as a word. Let's play with that.

Seth Godin (01:05:04):

My company is called Do you zoom?

Noor Tagouri (01:05:07):

Do you zoom

Seth Godin (01:05:08):

And so I'm doing something similar, which is, I'm putting it right back on the reader

(01:05:14):

And I'm saying, here's what I got. What do you got? What ruckus are you going to make? And there's a word in Italian called sprezzatura. Sprezzatura is service without drama. It is the [inaudible] liner unlined Italian jacket from Naples. It is the flair and the look and the approach of awareness of the person you're seeking to connect with and offering service in such a way that it doesn't command reciprocity. And ze Toda is the opposite of what happened at a three star Michelin restaurant in France where they're making the big show with the silver Bowls and everything else. It is the care and generosity that comes from showing up with empathy. And so for me, I am pretty vigilant about the manipulation of hustle, which comes from a different version of service, which is unasked for, but demands reciprocation. But I am in awe of sprezzatura to that. When someone is able to do it at that level, not to show off, but because they get it. That feels to me like an essential human connection that we left behind when we left the village. And it's a way of bringing that feeling back.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:00):

Sprezzatura

Seth Godin (01:07:01):

There you go. They named a loaf of bread at Danny Myers Cafe after that word, because I blogged about it.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:09):

No way.

Seth Godin (01:07:10):

So you can go in and ask for some sprezzatura bread and they will happily serve it to you.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:15):

I would love to do that, except my favorite bread is the gluten-free bread that you've made. I was

Seth Godin (01:07:20):

Going to say the gluten-free bread that the, By The way Bkery makes to be clear

Noor Tagouri (01:07:23):

That By The Way bakery makes

Seth Godin (01:07:25):

There's one near you. Go to btw bakery.com.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:29):

Wait, somebody actually, didn't somebody just tell us that they found, by the way, bakery at Whole Foods recently? Yes.

Seth Godin (01:07:35):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:36):

Was it you? OhS, didn't you got it for your mom? My mom got it. Cause she's dairy and gluten free.

Seth Godin (01:07:44):

Perfect. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:45):

That's

Seth Godin (01:07:45):

Amazing. Give her a hug for us.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:46):

Yes. All right. The fill in the blank. If you really knew me, you would know. You can share one, two, or three things. Your favorite thing.

Seth Godin (01:08:01):

Well, it's not, is it my favorite thing? Is that what the question means? I'm questioning the question here.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:05):

No, it's just you can't ask him multiple questions. No, no, no. I'm saying you talking about yourself is your favorite thing. That's why we're doing this. If you really knew me, you would know.

Seth Godin (01:08:19):

Would know that I have extreme but correct views about dark chocolate.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:23):

That's true.

Seth Godin (01:08:25):

That my spiritual home base is in Algonquin Park, Canada, three hours north of Toronto. And that I'm a teacher.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:37):

Thanks for being our friend and our teacher.

Seth Godin (01:08:41):

Love you both.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:41):

Love you so much. Thank you.

Seth Godin (01:03:59):

I couldn't have written this book without the two of you. The example is you've shown the kindness and care you bring to everything you do. The way we, we've engaged about authenticity and consistency and where the world is going, it just lights me up. Thank you both of you.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:20):

We love you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my gosh. I can't, I'm like, I'm going to stay silent after this for the rest of the day and just process

(Transcript) Timothy Goodman on His Artistic Process, Being a Recovering Misogynist, Honoring His Loneliness, and the Audacity of Trying

INTRO

Noor Tagouri:

Here's the thing. Timothy and I have already had our interview, but that's because we jumped right into it. And the wild part is that I am sitting down with you literally minutes after I was sitting down with my friend Prabal Gurung, who's a designer, and before I even introduce you, I feel like this is a great way to introduce you, which is that one of New York's finest designers posted a photo of a sanitation truck yesterday that was covered in Timothy's drawings. And he didn't realize that it was Timothy's. He didn't know it was Timothy's. And when he found out, he shared that it was Timothy's. And I was like, this was yesterday. And I was like, wait, I'm literally interviewing you both back to back the next day. Which by the way, just feels like fate and destiny and I - I look forward to you to knowing each other.

But it was funny because before I got to this interview, before I came here, Prabal was like, I was just sitting at Ludlow and I was drinking my coffee and I was reading my book and the truck passed me. And I was like, this is art. This is beauty. It's just seeing it in this. And it was on a sanitation truck and that it made his heart so much fuller. And I was very excited to be like, well, knowing him, I know this means, this is going to mean so much because that's like why you do the work that you do. And when you listen to our interview today, you'll know listeners that this is why this is, you'll know that it's very profound that this happened because that is the essence of Timothy Goodman. And if you don't know Timothy Goodman, he is an award-winning artist, graphic designer, author and public speaker. 

His art and words have populated walls, buildings, packaging, shoes, clothing, books, magazine covers, most recently in Time magazine and galleries all over the world. He's worked with brands like Apple, Nike, Google, Netflix, Tiffany's, Samsung, YSL, Sundance, Nicolo, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and more. And he regularly partners for nonprofits and schools creating art for communities in New York. He is very avid in creating social experiments, including this viral blog and book called 40 Days of Dating. His first solo gallery exhibition is called I'm Too Young to Not Set My Life On Fire. And it was on View in the City in 2021. And in 2022, at the end of the year, he launched his own Nike shoe with N B A basketball star Kevin Durant titled The KD 15 Timothy Goodman. As you can hear, we are in New York City and we love that Nat Sound. Timothy's work often discusses things like mental health, manhood, race, politics, heartbreak and love. And we get into all of in this episode, oh, now it's getting louder. It's fine. It's okay. We can even keep this New York. He teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York City and regularly speaks around the world at different creative conferences. And his graphic memoir, I Always Think It's Forever, was published at the beginning of 2023 by Simon and Schuster. Timothy. It's weird to hear your own bio. I know, I know. But I, it's, it's way

Timothy Goodman:

It’s way too long. I should’ve given you a much shorter version.

Noor Tagouri:

No, I want it. It's good because I feel like it's important for people to know all the ins and outs because your approach and your philosophy to your work is it includes all of these ins and outs. And so the way we typically kick off our conversations is something that I like to call a heart to check in. So I would love to ask you Timothy Goodman, how is your heart doing today?

Timothy Goodman:

It's interesting. I was looking forward to this question, if I'm being completely honest, which I love to do. I just got done with all these book events from my book that came out about a month ago, and it's been a whirlwind of a journey the last two months leading up to it and the launch of it. And I always feel really sad after I finish a big project and I feel lonely. And so in a lot of ways my heart is lonely right now, and I don't think we have this stigma in society about what loneliness is, and we try to put a bandaid over it. But I like to honor that loneliness a lot. I do feel existentially lonely all the time, whether I can, I could be in an amazing relationship I am now. There could be so much going on, but I do have these questions about what it means to be human kind of meaning I have.

And that's always with me. And so my heart feels curious, but it's also lonely and it's a little sad because of the ending of the book of launch and the events. And I think I just want to honor that. And because it lets me oftentimes as a creative person, as an artist, it also that rawness makes me feel closer to something, to what it means to be human to the questions of what it means to be human. And I think as long as I'm sort of okay with being in that realm, I'll sort of be okay.

Noor Tagouri:

First of all, thank you for sharing that because that felt like such an intentional answer and very vulnerable. And I really appreciate you saying that because I also really relate to that feeling, that consistent loneliness that comes with being a seeker and just constantly asking that question of what does it mean to be human? Why are we alive? And also, it's such a testament that we are recording the answer to this question after the interview because you held me accountable and said, you didn't ask me how my heart was. And that is the first time that anybody's ever been like, wait, you didn't do that? And that's what I was looking forward to. But it speaks to you as a person and it speaks to you as an artist because you mean what you say when you say, I want to see people and I want to be seen. And so it's just like, Hey, this is a platform where I can share this and I feel this need to share it, not just to get it off my chest, but because I know by sharing it that in itself as an active service. And so thank you for being of service, and now we get to welcome people into the rest of the conversation, with that note.

Timothy Goodman:

Thanks for having me on this, by the way

Noor Tagouri:

What are you kidding? I was like, this is so cool. Wow. Thank you so much.

Timothy Goodman:

I was actually listening - I hadn't listened to that.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh my gosh. So Mari is actually hosting, she's doing a workshop with another one of my friends. Do you know Ruth Lindsay?

Timothy Goodman:

No.

Noor Tagouri:

Ruth's also really amazing. They're doing a workshop this weekend at this place called Kripalu. And something that I find that I'm Really admiring Mari about these days is that she is like offline. Yes. Actually has done the offline thing. And she always, even when she was online, always felt like, I feel like conflicted about that. About is it to share your work? Is it to share you? Is it to whatever? And then the writing in between. And she's found a way, we got her Christmas card this Christmas and cute. It was so cute. I was like, wait, this is what it means. I feel like to catch up with somebody is like, you let you share a genuine, intimate photo of what's happening in your life and you give actual updates. Because the reality is in on social media too, is it's not like, I don't know about you. But I feel like I've done a really good job of letting people know, letting people feel like they know a lot about me or a lot about my life and stuff. But still being a very private person. And I think I've gotten more and more private actively. I haven't posted online as much and I try to keep it to just my work. But I feel like a lot of times when your work takes so long to produce anyway. Yeah. It's hard when you're to,

Timothy Goodman:

What do you mean? You want to fill in the gaps?

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. But I decided, I would decided in this last big project that I did Rep, I just was like, I'm not going to force it. I'm not going to fill in the gaps. I'm just going to share as I want. And then if my natural instinct is to not share as much, I'm going to observe that and be like, why is that? And honor it. Because it's, it clearly you're on a journey that is trying to keep you more connected up here. And so just see what that's like. Exactly. Without feeling the pressure to have to do it out loud all the time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. How do you feel about that?

Timothy Goodman:

I've gone through many different phases with what it means to be online. I think that for a long time I wanted to share everything all the time.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Do you know why?

Timothy Goodman:

I think it was just a desire to, I really feel like I'm just an expressionist when it comes to my art. So whether that is takes the form of a social experiment or a piece of writing or a mural on a wall, or just sharing how I'm feeling at any given time, I really just feel like I have to get it out. It feels - It just there's - I don't like how it feels inside. And so for a long time, and maybe because of therapy for many years and just getting older and all these things, I feel a little bit more at ease with that now over the last couple years.

Timothy Goodman:

I think for many years I just had to get it out. And I think that was at times messy. And I'm okay with that too, but it was a little messy, maybe a little uncomfortable, a little inappropriate at times. And I'm thankful for it because I learned from it. I grew from it. But now I do feel like a little bit more of a sacredness with my life versus my online

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Of life. So I think it's just a journey that we're all on when it comes to this stuff. What it means to have some sort of an audience but also still retain a sense of your own identity that no one else has to know about, a sense of your own relationships that no one has to know everything about. Yeah, I think I've gotten better at that for sure. But there are times where I just want to wall out and just whatever, and it's just, and share and do this and whatever. And there's times where I want to fall back

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know. It is about trying to honor it. I think you listen to it and honor it  Rather than fight it. 

Noor Tagouri:

One of the things that our mutual friend Mari said, I think on this podcast too that has really stuck with me about sharing is the importance of sharing when things are actually processed. Because sometimes when it's unprocessed it, it's not really productive to anybody because it, it's still, I don't know, I guess in the feelings of it all. And it hasn't been polished. And I don't think that that's always the case that we shouldn't share until things are fully processed. Because there are people I admire right now who are in the thick of recovery, for example, and they're deciding to share it as they go with guidance and still in a very thoughtful way. But I do love be witnessing people in the middle of their journey or in the mess of the journey as well, because it's just a reminder that we all are always, that this is kind of the noon of our life and that's where we kind of exist the most. And if that's the case, then it's comforting to know someone sees us too.

Timothy Goodman:

For sure. For sure. A long time. I used to really, I would write about maybe a breakup or a heartbreak I was going through

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Would be posting it as I was going. And like I said, that was messy. And I think at times, maybe I look back and I'm a little, I cringe a little bit at some of that, but it's what I had to do at the time. And I think the process of writing and making the art helped me process the actual event or the feelings I was kind of going through. And for that, I'm thankful. But it doesn't always have to be posted though.

Noor Tagouri:

And it does. And we love the younger versions of ourselves who felt, but I also will honor that it didn't always have to be posted, but posting didn't mean the same thing as it does today. Yeah. Because I know that, for example, my journey on the internet started really fast and intense as soon as I actively started using it. And there was one post of mine that stated Dr. My Dream at the time that went very, very viral. And that kind of skyrocketed my work into where it is. But I sometimes I'll tell Adam, I don't think that I would feel, I would not feel comfortable posting that today. I did then, because then the landscape and the culture on the internet was a lot more loving, a lot more supportive when something went viral. It was on Good Morning America for days. And we laughed and we rejoiced. And the initial thing that people would feel for the most part was kindness and joy. And I think now because people feel so disconnected from themselves, that ends up being a projection that we see.

Timothy Goodman:

You think people feel more disconnected from themselves now than maybe they did

Noor Tagouri:

Or Absolutely. Online version of themselves. I think them their actual selves, because we invest so much in connecting ourselves to our online selves. So it's highly curated. So it's weird, for example, and I'm sure you've had this experience where sometimes you'll be familiar with somebody's presence online, but then when you meet them in person and how the reaction, it's not even that, how different they are because we're all a little bit different, obviously, because we're more human, we're more are more human selves. But I think what can end up being drawing for me sometimes is that when you realize that they're a lot of work that goes into the online person that you don't really see. So I mean, it's curated and sometimes it's very manufactured and sometimes it's more authentic and it's not like to pass judgment or anything like that, but it's sometimes, anyway, that's why I think that we are more disconnected.

Timothy Goodman:

It stops you in your tracks. My, it's interesting because for the same, for me, my first adventure in what it means to be online was about 10 years ago when I did this project, 40 days of dating that went viral back then. And it's like hundred Internets ago at this point. That was a blog

Noor Tagouri:

That went viral that a hundred Internets ago.

Timothy Goodman:

It doesn't happen anymore in that way, but suddenly that was a project that we were processing in real time. Me and my good friend Jessica Walsh and co-creator of this project, we both came from these opposite relationship problems. At the time, I was the commitment folk. She was the exact opposite. She was always looking for one. We were good friends. We kind of made this pact to date each other for 40 days

Noor Tagouri:

As a social experiment

Timothy Goodman:

As a social experiment with rules. We had to see a couple's therapists together weekly. We had to go on, we had to see each other every day for the 40 days. We had to go on a weekend trip together. We had to fill out this form that we kind of created every single day, which were these eight questions. Did you see Jessica today? How do you feel about things? What do you want to do differently? Blah, blah, blah. And that was then we created this website where she's on the left. I'm on the right each day. And you see how two people experience how they process and experience completely different. And we rolled it out daily. It was this kind of each day for that whole summer, and it went viral. We were on NBC Today Show, and suddenly 500,000 people were reading it each day. And we were meeting with movie stars who wanted to turn it into a movie.

We ended up optioning it to Warner Brothers. And it was so wild because suddenly it was just like, I was maybe a couple years out of school at that point, and I just started working for myself. I was doing illustrations and commercial artwork and stuff, but to be just thrown into it. And it was so, I saw all of it happening around me, the conversation. But there was a lot of support about it. And there was a lot of, but to be, it really broke down a wall that maybe for a while wasn't healthy for me, but I just was like, oh, I can do this. I can write about anything I want. I can talk about any trauma that I've ever experienced. I can talk about. In a lot of ways, it gave me liberation to go deeper in my art because of that experience that maybe for a while wasn't healthy, but also ultimately I think, I don't know, it really kind of shaped and molded who I was as an artist. And

Noor Tagouri:

It's also really cool that relationships are such a core part of your work, your relationship with yourself or platonic relationships or romantic relationships. And this experiment seems to be the way that you really put that to the test. And I'm curious what role, the platonic ness of it all Yeah. Actually played in whether either clearing up the lenses or fogging them up a little bit as You mean that project back then? Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean, at the time I was a commitment phobe. I was just couple years out of school. I was living in New York. I just wanted to, was

Noor Tagouri:

Define a commitment boy. Yes, commitment boy, commitment phone, always. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

And I call myself a recovering misogynist.

Noor Tagouri:

Define that in your terms.

Timothy Goodman:

In my terms. It's just about what it means to be socialized in this and conditioned as, I mean, we all are, but as a straight man in this country - everything, if I'm going to be honest about that, I for instance, play into white supremacy as a white person, then how can I not be honest that I'm a misogynist and the intersections of race and gender all play into each other. So I'm something I've always constantly thought about. But I think most men in this country, if they look at themselves in the mirrors, they would have to be honest with themselves about how we play into these kind of things and how, especially with the media we consume so much. All of it is just, and our families and the things we were taught, the postures and behaviors we were taught as boys. Of course, I grew up calling women hoes and bitches. But then I would also love my mom or whatever, because that's what the Tupac album told me. All the rap rappers that I admire when I was a kid. Cause I didn't have a father in the house. And I was always looking for rock stars, rap stars to be my dad. And they all had that one song that was about the girls that were on tour and then the one song about their mom.

Noor Tagouri:

Wow.

Timothy Goodman:

And you start to think about women in those ways. And I think that's why you still have, you see these conversations around sex workers these days where people can't get it wrapped around their head that sex work is real work and these people are humans. And I think all of that is about so much of the stories that were taught as kids through our media consumption.

**AD BREAK**

Noor Tagouri:

So that journey of becoming a recovering misogynist, how did it start and how did you intend for it to start? And then how did you know it really started because the world around you started to change, or the people around you started to react to your journey?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I think first of all, I grew up in an all black neighborhood until I was 12 or 13. And so as a little white kid thinking about most white kids aren't thinking about race in these ways, but was, it was all around weed. I would be with my family all the time. And then suddenly all the friends in my neighborhood were black. And the conversations we were having were so much different. And I remember when we was seven, we were playing outside in this kid goes, he goes, you're a black kid or something like that. And I remember thinking, I never really thought about that I was anything, I never really thought about color or race at that point, but he was already, and that was so fascinating for me. And it really stuck with me. And of course I would see how the police would come to my neighborhood and harass the older kids or break up.

We were playing football games on the streets and they would come and break it up. And there was all, and I would see drug deals all happening around me all the time. I would see all this stuff, but it wasn't until so, and I read the autobiography of Malcolm X when I was 16, white kids aren't doing this kind of stuff. So suddenly years later, when I start to think about gender and I start to think about what kind of a mission or there's so many blind spots that maybe people understand about race, but they don't understand about gender. But if you start to think about the intersections of it all, if I can, like I said earlier, if I can admit and understand my role as a white person in the society and how I play into white supremacy, then why wouldn't I understand how the same way with gender and how I played into misogyny all the time. So it started to make, and you read books, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and you see the glaring misogyny that's happening while he understands. But he talks so profoundly about race. So then you start to connect these things for me at least, and have conversations with women, with non-binary folks, with all kinds of different people. And you start to, it just became very clear to me

Noor Tagouri:

 Was there a first conversation that really propelled you onto this journey?

Timothy Goodman:

I mean, I think when I read Bell Hooks,

Timothy Goodman:

All About Love, I'm constantly rereading for many years. I think when I read that, maybe it was 10 years ago, the first time I read it, that really started to, and a friend gave me that. But that project, 40 days, days of dating, that really I had to think about because I did get criticism because of

Noor Tagouri:

What kind of criticism?

Timothy Goodman:

Well just that, oh, I was a little bit of a fuckboy and a player and some people just didn't my attitude about things. And I was playing a role and I really had to question myself. And I think because it was so public back then, it made me, when I dig deeper and you kind of come to a crosswords, where am I going to be this guy or who

Noor Tagouri:

You actively thought about that then?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, because it hurt. Because anytime someone's criticizing you publicly, it hurts. So you can choose to get defensive or you can be thankful for the call out and tuck your tail between your legs and do some work. And that's what I was able to do, I think. And I'm always, I'm constantly trying to do that. It never ends. So I recovering because we still play it. I still feel like I listen to a Drake song and I can't,

Noor Tagouri:

You whatever. It's

Timothy Goodman:

All kind of have to recover constantly from it

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. I mean, let me do tap check. Okay, cool. So take me on the path of you beginning to ask those questions to it sometimes manifesting into your illustrations.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, I mean, I don't see it. I think all art is political, whether you know it or not. If you're not constantly thinking about, so I get to exist without being politicized, right? Because I'm just a white straight man in this society. So if I just think that if I'm not constantly thinking about what role I'm playing, and that could be in any, so that could be in the kind of space I'm taking up in any given area, or it could be about what kind of jobs I'm taking, what kind of brand I'm upholding. If I'm also not thinking about I'm writing something on a wall and this could be misinterpreted the wrong way, or this could offend someone who's marginalized. If I'm not actively thinking about that, then what am I doing as an artist? We're in the business of consequence. We're making work that is seen by the public, that is consumed by the public.

Whether that's a product, whether that's a piece of public art or installation, whether it's a book you're reading, any of these things I'm making, so what's my role in all this? You can't tell me, oh no, I just make things and it's fine. No, this stuff matters. And so it's constantly kind of playing. And so sometimes that will come out in very blatant ways, whether I'm writing something on the side of the wall that's talking about racism or gender or something. Or it could just comes out in the way I'm conducting business. And thinking about that,

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me more about that.

Timothy Goodman:

What conducting?

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Is it when you're asking yourself, what is the role that I'm playing in this problem? Which is one of my favorite consistent questions to be asking, especially right now. How are you able to ask that from the inside out? Because you engage in both your personal art and also commercial art, but the lines are blurred in that you have a very intimate, distinct style. So what are the sub-questions in that?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean, I think first and foremost, we all have to start wherever we are. And sometimes for a person, I always say, you don't have to make work in order to do the work. Cause I think a lot of artists or designers or whatever, they think they have to make a project that's about this stuff or whatever. But it's also just talk to your racist cousin. You know what I mean?

Noor Tagouri:

But that's harder sometimes. It really is.

Timothy Goodman:

Of course, of course. It's extremely hard. And I'm

Noor Tagouri:

Not saying that it's better or worse, it's just that it's almost, and I feel this myself sometimes. It's almost easier to make the really risky work and put it out there, then face a loved one and be like, we need to have this talk. Because it's like you don't know which way the conversation is going to go. And if the conversation goes one way, how does your relationship come back from that? Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

And I don't know, for me, I'm willing to risk that relationship

Noor Tagouri:

Every time.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah. I mean, listen, I think there can be a certain level of respect and tact

Noor Tagouri:

Of course

Timothy Goodman:

These conversations, of course. And if someone's going to walk away from you because of that, well, maybe they shouldn't be in your life many

Noor Tagouri:

Anyway. Well

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know.

Noor Tagouri:

Something I've been thinking about too about that in that actual regard of you're willing to potentially sacrifice a relationship is it's less about trying to change the way people think because we can't control people. We can't change people. But it's letting yourself be known in your truest form and in your truest integrity and knowing that you're willing to risk a relationship because you've, you've worked so hard to become, be in that place where you don't feel like you have to, or you're not willing to appease another person who may be saying things or doing things that are harmful.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And it's, I think everyone has to make their own kind of calls on that. So I've never pass judgment or it's a very hard thing to do. But it's also you we've talked about before, my brother, I love him to death. He's like a Bill Maher Democrat. Talk to those people. Yeah, because there's a lot of common ground of course. And I think those kind of relationships can help, can be steered in certain ways. Not that you're trying to manipulate someone, of course, but it is important to, I think, have those lively discussions with people who see things differently in those ways. But also, years ago, I started in 2018 because I get asked to speak a lot at conference design and ad and art conferences all over the world. And I started really, every time I was getting asked to speak or do a workshop or whatever, I said, I wouldn't agree to do it unless they showed me who was speaking that they were making sure to have people of color, to have black people, to have people from the L G B T Q community on these, because you find yourself speaking at these conferences and it's the same old fucking dusty white guys speaking.

And I get it, A lot of these places they have to fill seats and get people and they put whatever big name that people know, but there's so much more that they could be doing and do, you should be sharing these people's stories and sharing their work. And so I've started putting my foot down. I wouldn't agree to be a part of these things unless they were actively making it inclusive, you know, can call that whatever, inclusive rider or whatever. So it was very important for me to do these things. And I bought out many times because they couldn't commit. And so you do have to, I think I feel a responsibility as someone who has an audience in my little world, my community, to put my foot down and put your money where it's at times. And that's also been about various campaigns I've been a part of.

You know, have to. Because even if you come at it with good attention, and then suddenly you find yourself on the other end and you're like, wow, they picked five white people and now here I'm looking like an idiot. And then someone's calling me out because I didn't activ and I didn't even mean anything about it, but because I wasn't actively pushing. So I think this stuff has to start from the curators and start from the inside out and push onto these kind of people who are creating these kind of spaces. You have to push on them more.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah, I mean it, it's also that once you do that, even if you have to bow out this time you're putting, you're planting a seed for the next time and opening doors, you don't even know what the ripple effects of that are. But people don't forget that kind of request. And we also make that effort as well. And it's just like you're holding people accountable.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And I also think that, so for a while, I used to, a couple times I remember I posted online, I posted the email I would send to people. Cause I wanted to really inspire other guys

Noor Tagouri:

Oh yeah, that's a great way to share that,

Timothy Goodman:

To think about this stuff. And I think a lot of times people don't know exactly how to do it or whatever. And so just listen. And I also posted a couple times where it worked. I mean it worked many times when I would post how it would work and the emails and stuff. So it was just like, I want people to more people who look like me to be thinking about this stuff when they're saying yes

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Kind of deciding on what to do. Cause it's a massive problem. Of course. And it's also just so boring.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah, I was just going to say also too, yes, the big names, the people want to put people in seats or whatever, but it's also, it always ends up being a better series of stories because the stories are always more powerful when you're tapping into people who have had to sit with their stories and who who've had to sit with the question of who are you over and over and over again. I always think about that. I know that my approach to storytelling and journalism and asking questions is what it is because I have had to really consider who am I and what is my point of view in this world and what are my stories in this world and what are the questions that I'm asking? And the question I would always ask before a story is, and how is the way that I'm telling the story or sharing the story, going to impact the communities or the people I'm talking about or trying to be of service to, because that's the only way that you'll actually be a fair and objective storyteller.

Once you yourself know what your point of view is in the world and why you see it that way. And when you haven't had to interrogate that everybody is welcome to, and everybody has the ability to interrogate their own stories. But typically when you are a part of you're the non-dominant community or identity or whatever you want to call it, you're not having to think about it as much. Exactly. But I think that ask, prompting people with those questions and that responsibility is a great way to have people interrogate their own approach to their work and their own approach, approach to how they show up in the world. Interrogate is such a good word. I use that word a lot lately. Yeah, because it's also in the essence of the word itself are it, it's more of a feeling, it's more of a digging and excavating than it is a holding a spotlight onto you and demanding something.

You're so good at this. I'm just so be here with you.

Noor Tagouri:

Thank you.

Timothy Goodman:

Your work is so important in the world. You do the real work.

**AD BREAK**

Noor Tagouri:

Well, no, I mean, you're also doing very important work and I really appreciate how honest you're being and how open you're being because that's a thing is, I don't know, as you know that I've kind of recently started painting and really realizing what the power of putting something onto a canvas and not just the actual art itself that ends up being there, but the action of moving your body in a way where you're tapping into flow and you're kind of having downloads to process the world that we're living in it. It's like being an artist or however you want to define that word. And I'm using it right now. I'm the most universal sense of the word, where everyone can be an artist and we need people to approach life as artists. It really makes all of our work feel really important because the more personalized I believe it is, the more you're willing to put yourself into your work and to let us know you. The more expansive you create a space for people to know themselves and for people to be like, wait, I can do that too. Or I can share this too. And I think when it comes to books specifically, which you just published your first a memoir. Yeah. You've published books, graphic memoir. You've published books before. ”I always think it's forever”. And it is. So I feel like I'm reading your blue bubbles, your text messages, your personal, I put it all on the table. You really put it out all on the table. And I think a lot about how do people make the decision to do that? Because oftentimes when you are telling your toothiest truth, not the only character in the story, and so you're also sharing a lot about other people, and when we speak about the work that we do has consequences even especially that has consequence. So I want to know, what was your process in approaching telling your story through this medium, but also telling this story in such an intimate way?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, it's a really good question. Firstly, what you were saying before, I just want to touch on, I think that always sharing one's personal story through art is a form of activism always, because it really allows us to connect to other lonely souls in the world. And that's really on a human level what I always want to do. And so for me, I don't know at whatever point that I was able to really break down those walls and not, you're always going to care and you're always going to be afraid, and I'm really being fearless or anything, but you're always going to have that. But you really get to a point where you're just, you don't like it. It's not going to prohibit you from doing what you need to do from screaming out from the rooftops, whether it's your heartbreak or whether it's your love or your loneliness.

And so going there is important for me because I know what it's going to do for me and it's going to do for others. I don't feel like a story is worth telling unless you really give it all and go there with it. That's just always about how I, the art that I've admired in my life, the specifically music, that's the biggest music, books, movies, there're always going there and they're always making me feel less lonely. And so it's just, I don't know second nature for me to do that. But of course there's consequences. It's difficult. I mean, listen, any memoir that's ever been written, all the millions of them in the world, there are about other people. And so you have to figure out how to tell your story, your experience, your point of view without, it was very important for me to do that without, in making sure that I'm not, there's no character assassination, especially in the love interest in the story, that there's no outing someone, that no one can figure out who this person is by their name or their career or their horoscope sign, whatever. I really wanted to make sure that, and that was something that was important with my editor as well. But it's my story to tell. Yeah. And what's the cost of not telling that? What am I going to have to pay for that?

Noor Tagouri:

What could the cost be?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I mean,

Noor Tagouri:

If you didn't get this book out, What would your insides look like today?

Timothy Goodman:

This whole journey for writing this book was so important to me because like I said, I have to get these things in out and if I don't, I feel just, I don't know, I feel like I want to scream. It's really important for me. And so even just the act of trying to get the book made, even if it hadn't gotten made, I would've been cool in a lot of ways. But I had to make the proposal, I had to start with just the audacity of trying. And so that's all that actually mattered. If I didn't get to make the book because no one wanted to make it or I didn't think it was a story worth telling, I could have lived with that. But I tried

Noor Tagouri:

The audacity of trying.

Timothy Goodman:

So that's now there's more consequences, of course. Cause I read about in this book, listen, I've talked about things with my mother and various projects, social experiments, things that I've done over the years. She's n she's never happy about it. She's a very private person. And I've talked a lot about our child, my childhood. And

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me about a conversation that you guys would have about it though. Because a lot of our parents, I feel like most of our parents are pretty private people. And even when I talk about writing a book to my family, they're like, whoa, yeah, what are you trying to say?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, it's a very difficult conversation for me. It's about making her feel seen, of course, understanding her point of view, but also standing my ground. And listen, it goes back to what I was saying earlier, if this person's going to walk away from you because they don't want you to tell your story, but we'll the value of that relationship, then it's very difficult. Thankfully, don't, my mother's not going to risk losing her son over this.

Noor Tagouri:

That's a really interesting thing to say though. Even putting it in that frame

Timothy Goodman:

And listen, if it really came to that and she was like, I'll never talk to you again and be right this book, of course I would come into a real,

Noor Tagouri:

There's another layer of work that goes into that consideration.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, I'm not going to actually do this right now, but I have a good relationship with my mom. So I'm not like the story that she is not, there's nothing I'm talking about that's damaging about her per se. But I talked a lot about my stepfather in the book and about how he abused me and about things, some of the things I went through as a kid and how that further, how that shaped my view of love and relationships and women in my teenage years, in my twenties, going back to that, everything we were talking about before. And so I talk a lot about that. It looks poorly on her. I have that conversation with her. I also feel like I need to do what I need to do, and I'm doing it in a sincere way and that, you know, agree to disagree, and she's still going to support me. Of course, she doesn't love it, but she gets it. And I'm explained to her my point of view about these things. There's also a legal situation about talking about someone who's alive, putting things out there, A person abused me or something like that. And there's conversations with Simon Schuster about if this happens or this happens, what this is how we handle it or whatever. So there's all kinds of actual things like that that I'm sure many people writing memoirs about. Different people have to

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

You know, face those things to have those conversations

Noor Tagouri:

And then it's out.

Timothy Goodman:

The shit gets real. It's real. And I also have to think about how my brothers, who I have strong relationships with, that's their dad, my stepfather. There's a lot of things that can get real and uncomfortable, but I have, it's my story and it's so much a part of the makeup of who I am and it, it's so much a part. You can't tell the stories later on without telling that first.

Noor Tagouri:

So that's really, wow. Do you really feel that?

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, Of course. How can I talk about recovering misogynist or that I've been a fuckboy or whatever, or because I was so scared of relationships without talking about abuse I suffered at when I was a kid without talking about how my stepfather and my mother were in this horrible marriage, a relationship that didn't show love, didn't show real communication, didn't show support. So I grew up seeing that as a young boy. And so how of course that's going to affect how I think about relationships going for further in my teenage years, in my twenties, of course it's going to affect me equating love or relationships with some sort of inevitable heartbreak that's going to end in soul sucking divorce or something. Of course, I'm going to think that it's a weakness and I'm going to hide behind my armor as a man and masculinity to say, I'm too good for that, or I'm too busy for that, or whatever. Of course. So I have to tell that. And then it takes a lot of proactivity and a lot of work for many years, a lot of therapy. Shout out to my therapist,

Noor Tagouri:

Why is doing the work and why is going to therapy worth it for you today?

Timothy Goodman:

Because I really just want to see and be seen as much as possible, and I want to affirm my humanity. And I think as the act of creating art is about that in a lot of ways,

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

Define the art

Noor Tagouri:

I mean creating art as an affirmation of your humanity. And then you look at your art and it literally feels and looks like a stream of consciousness. So I would love to hear about one, how you found your design and your approach, and then translate this to me in how, translate this to us in a way that explains how you see it. Because the way my eyes are looking at it, and of course whoever the viewer of your art is going to see it differently, but I really want to know in the most intimate sense, what is this language?

Timothy Goodman:

I just want to tell the audience that the way you're looking at all my art right now, so it's so wonderful. Just,

Noor Tagouri:

Well, we did get a really good backdrop, it's backdrop. It is. You beautifully curated some of the most beautiful pieces. And then of course there's a little basketball hoop on the actual frame. When I came here, I asked Tina the first time, I was like, so where can we get one of those? Yeah,

Timothy Goodman:

I know, right? Yeah. I only just got one recently. How it translates, it's really hard. I'm a huge, so I'm Keith Harring is a massive inspiration of mine, Harris from the eighties. And he said something like something after all, I always just figured art was for community. It was to further the conversation and culture. And so I've always just thought about it from a high point of view, but the actual doing of it is just jazz to me. It's freestyle hip hop or something. It's just both the way I write and the way I draw it really just has to come out first with an urgency. You learn over years, you're, you put your 10,000 hours in or whatever. I come from, I went to SBA or New York City, I had a graphic design bfa. I worked in branding early on book track designer. I come from a strong graphic design background. So everything I've learned in as far as typography, I've been formally trained in all these things.

But you've learned the rules to break. So then it really comes out as rhythm as music for me. So you put your hours in, you put your time in, and at some point you get good at just getting it out quickly, even if it's a sketch and you build on those blocks. So I have to just get it out all the time and then I kind shape it from there. So it's like a jazz musician learning is you have a set quarter of changes and then you can go anywhere from there. That's the way I think about it.

Noor Tagouri:

Wait, so okay. I love, thank you so much for sharing all of this. so when you're getting it out, sometimes I feel like that's the hardest part. How do you not wait for the urgency to build up? Wait, here's the difference because I wait for the urgency to build up and then I'm just so sad and so low, and then I'm like creeping and I'm just like, wait, this is very dramatic. It takes a lot of time. So tell me the difference.

Timothy Goodman:

But this is the difference where different people were different artists. You have to tap into your behaviors as a human. For me, I'm a profoundly impatient person, so I let that play out into my art. So that's why I start, I started drawing so fast because I wanted to get done so I could go home. So you let that dictate your style. It always just made sense to me from the

Noor Tagouri:

Get. Oh my gosh. Timothy, this is your professor side coming because you also teach at the school you went to this, is that, okay, great. Continue, please.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, so early on when I did my first mural in 2010, I was still working. I just had to get it out quickly and I just used a paint marker because it just seemed like the quickest tool.

Noor Tagouri:

We love a paint marker.

Timothy Goodman:

And so it wasn't about like, oh, this is going to be the beginning of a career, and I just really love a pain mark. It was just like, oh, I want to get this out quickly and do this fast. What's the quickest way to do this? I don't want to use a brush. I don't want to draw it quick. And so I used a pain marker and it was hard and it was laborsome and it took me three days to do this mural that would now take me six hours or something. And I cried, but I never felt more stimulated physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And I walked away saying, how do I make this? Do I take this feeling and make it happen for the rest of my life? And so we have to latch on to those kind of questions, but I just let my own sensibilities, my impatient drive, my style, and then I just kept doing it and doing it and doing it until it got more refined. And eventually you get to a place where I think you can just work off of it quickly.

Noor Tagouri:

Well, what role does evolution play in that process? So of course as you're evolving, you're becoming more refined, but is that sensibility that you're tapping into something that's innate in you, the most natural, truest part of you, not going to change, but everything around it kind of changes? Or are you, as you're evolving, do you feel like for you, that shows up in your work as well? 

Timothy Goodman:

For sure, because at this point I can sit down and make a 200 page book and takes me a year and I'm constantly kind of editing a refining thing. And so it's not all obviously happening, happening so frantic. But we're all so different. You know, you brought up my lovely, incredible, beautiful girlfriend Tina, who she works in such a wildly different way than me. She needs to come into the art studio and light a candle, then play some music and meditate and smoke a joint and get into this holistic place and then finally start painting. And then maybe she's not feeling it where I just like, and a tornado and I push through, I don't care. I can be having a good day, a bad day or whatever, and I just have to do it.

Noor Tagouri:

And you can tap into that at any point. Is that flow for you or is that work for you? Or what is it?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, of course there's time where it's just work. I do things like we all do things to make a living,

Noor Tagouri:

But you never feel blocked in that approach.

Timothy Goodman:

I don't know. Of course there's times I feel blocked, but it truly is only about feeling burned out, taking on too much. And I don't feel like I'm in a good creative place just because I'm sleeping well and I have a lot of stress. Those are times that I feel blocked.

Noor Tagouri:

It's interesting that you've isolated the block as that too though, because even as I'm thinking about my own blocks, I'm like, oh, that's it. It's not about it being a block. It's about sometimes you're going so hard and then you're a little burnt out and tired and you just can't tap into it. You can't tap because you can't always want to

Timothy Goodman:

Tap into it.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. You're just like

Timothy Goodman:

But I had this teacher when I was in design school, he said something that still resonates me with me today. He said, there's no such thing as a creative block. If you hit a wall, you just turn around and go a different way. And it just always made so much sense to me, and it always just made me think, okay, if yeah, I'm hitting a wall, this is not the right way. What else is there? What are the option? B, C, D E, F? What if I just need to write poetry for two hours

Noor Tagouri:

To get things out?

Timothy Goodman:

What if I just need to journal? What if I just need to draw bunch of shapes or something? I don't know. There's so many different ways for me to express myself that I can just try

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

I'm not worried about what the outcome necessarily is. It's just for me

**AD BREAK**ISY AD

Oh, so you're in the, okay. So then on a really clear, great day at the studio, what is making things look like to you? What's that process?

Timothy Goodman:

I mean, really, it could be so many things. It just depends on, I'm really, I work at with deadlines really well. So it really is about that in so many ways. If I have nothing, no deadlines, and it's an open week, it could just be coming here and working on some canvases that, some ideas that I've been really thinking about. Then I want to get out and see how they look. It could be just sitting down. I really like to just sit down and write it. I'm a big I journal. I write poems.

Noor Tagouri:

And when you're journaling and writing, is your handwriting like your font?

Timothy Goodman:

No. So sorry, when I'm writing, it's just something I just write it on. Notes out. I haven't written in a journal journal

Noor Tagouri:

For oh, like

Timothy Goodman:

12 years.

Noor Tagouri:

Really. Even

Timothy Goodman:

In my book where I have journals,

Noor Tagouri:

It's all notes app,

Timothy Goodman:

The that came from my notes app

Noor Tagouri:

We love our notes app. Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Goodman:

I have so many tears in my notes.

Noor Tagouri:

It's actually a great journal. Yeah, the notes app. I have a journal folder in my notes app. Can you write? No, but I feel actual pen to paye. I have my journal with me all the time. Actual physical journal. Yeah, this morning I journaled with a Sharpie and I was, yeah, really? It's because I didn't have a pen on me and then I was like, oh, what I am interviewing Timothy today. So I guess this is perfect timing. But you say you should share that with us? No. Oh, definitely not sharing that journal today. I had a lot to get out, but it pen to paper. So have you've heard of morning pages, the artist's way? So that's why I do pen to paper. And so I started doing that. I at the beginning of 2021 or 2022, which I know is dramatically different because whatever, one to two years.

Anyway, I have filled almost 20 journals and I never thought I could, by the way, I was the type of person when I grew up and I was writing in journals, I would burn them because I was afraid someone was going to find them. I would write and then I would tear the pages out and I could never do it. And then I was just kind of like, well, I'm not afraid anybody's going to be going through my journals and until I'm dead, and so let's just see what it feels like. And it's such a clearing practice because there's also this notion of writing in your journal for as if, while thinking about anybody reading it is very freeing. And then also just taking up physical space. My hand, sometimes it'll be two sentences that fit on one page because I write so big because I have something to get out like that.

Yeah, it's so messy and I rarely ever am able to read it afterwards, but it's just the process of actually releasing. But that's also why, I mean, it's not about you should or shouldn't do it. I think that you do do it because you're putting pen to paper, you're putting ink to paper, you're putting Sharpie to canvas. That's all that. But if for the messiness and for the act of actively taking upstairs, and I also am just always trying to do whatever I can to not be on my phone. That's just the phase that I'm in right now. And it's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just what I need for myself is as little phone time, screen time as possible. So really

Timothy Goodman:

I did that all. I did that all through college. I have so many incredible notebooks and sketchbooks.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh, so you've already engaged in that practice?

Timothy Goodman:

Oh yeah, for so many years.

Noor Tagouri:

But a notes app is also amazing. Yeah, I mean, a notes tap is sometimes if I feel like the download is coming too quickly, I do a notes app because I can type on my phone faster than I can write pen to paper.

Timothy Goodman:

All I know is, Adam, you better stay away from those notebooks. No one really knows

Noor Tagouri:

Notebooks. Thank you. I mean, that's the thing. I trust that also, I don't think Adam would want to ever read my journals. He's like, no, I hear your journal downloads before and after and everything in between.

Timothy Goodman:

Do you ever read any of them?

Noor Tagouri:

 I used to. I did while I was working on REP because I would get really, when I have really big breakthroughs in my journal, it actually tends to be in the very beginning of using the journal. And the very end in the middle is just chaos. So I'll go back to the biggest downloads that I've had, which end up being 10 pages towards the end. And it just is so dramatic and whatever. I'm saying that right now, because I didn't archive one of my journals yet because I want to reread the breakthrough that I had because the breakthrough that I had relates to the next investigation that I'm doing. So

Timothy Goodman:

That's incredible. I love reading. Sometimes Tina and I will read it out loud to each other more often. Me I'll just like, I want to read this to you loud and I'll stand up and I'll just read it. But I love the act of just sharing it that way. And so it's

Noor Tagouri:

Poetic too that way too.

Timothy Goodman:

And it's such a quick way to feel humility and I'm kind of always looking for that in some way.

Noor Tagouri:

It's definitely a great way to get humility. Me and Adam have a rule where, unless I really am so insistent on reading him something I wrote, he's the Jerry Seinfeld rule, which is not letting anybody read your writing until at least the next day. Because when you're so into in the emotion and the person's reaction is not what you want, it's really hurtful.So you come in, you journal, and then how do we get from a blank canvas to a, not a very, not blank one?

Timothy Goodman:

Well, I have all sorts of ideas that I'm always kind of jotted down. It could be so always like I'm making things or writing things. And then I also just make a list of the things I've made or the things I'm in the process of making or the things I want to make because then it helps me. It helps just my brain. Think about if I have to have my second gallery show probably by the end of the year, so now that the book is kind of been out in the world for the last month and all my events are done now I'm really starting to think, okay, what does this gallery show look like? How is it different from the one I did in 2021? My first one? How is the art different? How is the experience different? What are some I different concepts for the show? What does that entail? Have I made anything that might translate to this? Do I want it to just be writings or drawings or a mix? Or do I want to do color? So I'll start really just thinking about all that stuff. Also, just a nice day could just be catching up on emails. It sounds so pitiful, but it's just like

Noor Tagouri:

It's not a month behind. Yeah. It's like,

Timothy Goodman:

Okay, let me just get to this. Have some

Noor Tagouri:

Tea That clears the space though. It really does it.

Timothy Goodman:

And then you can let 'em sit for another two months after. But

Noor Tagouri:

I'm approaching that mark. 

Timothy Goodman (00:59:15):

It’s so not glamorous at all.

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah,

Timothy Goodman:

That makes you feel like, okay.

Noor Tagouri:

What is your relationship with color? Because your art is traditionally white and black. Sharpie paint marker. How do we feel about color these days?

Timothy Goodman:

Well I certainly do color. I just did a mural in the Warby Parker, so that's all blues.

Noor Tagouri:

Oh, cool. Or

Timothy Goodman (00:59:38):

I'll have one accent color on certain things.

Noor Tagouri:

But how do you feel about it?

Timothy Goodman:

I love it and I just want it to be contained.

Noor Tagouri:

Tell me about that.

Timothy Goodman:

Too many colors with my work is already playful in a sense, and it's already lighthearted in some sense, in the way it presents. So you start introducing a lot of colors. It just becomes like a circus. I canand it and so I'll had clients and stuff and push for that. I'm like, no. So the one nice accent color or a monotone of different yellows or different blues, I think those compliment the work really well because it feels still sophisticated in some way, but I just don't, too many colors is too much, but I'm not wearing colors now, but I love wearing colors. I'm always wearing bright stuff. So

Noor Tagouri:

I mean, I love the yellow accent too. I love a white, black and yellow. Okay, great. Amazing.

Timothy Goodman:

I think yellow works so good with my work

Noor Tagouri:

Agreed. Drawings. Yeah. So you mentioned Keith Haring being one of your biggest inspirations, and I wanted to ask you about how you feel about artist comparisons and carrying on the legacy of artists. Because I think that most artists are always thinking about other artists that have come before them, and there is a lot of copying. There is a lot of taking or adding or continuing in so much work. I've been just deeply going down a Basquiat's like, yeah, rabbit hole. And he often did that as well. So I'm curious to you, what is your approach? Yeah. And how do you like to engage in the conversation outside of the artist community as well?

Timothy Goodman:

I think so. Maybe something for you to think about too, but Miles Davis, he said something like, you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself. And it's the same shit with making, you have to make a lot of stuff to make stuff like yourself. So be inspired by whoever you feel connected to make art that looks like theirs, try to mimic their stuff. I think we all do that in the beginning, try to. But then at some point we build on those foundations when we have to make it our own. And so someone like Keith Haring was always a massive inspiration because of his line drawing work, but I worked hard to, he never even worked with lettering or typography or anything in this kind of way. I made hard to make it my own in that sense. And then I do all sorts of things like these kind of big, wonky, better forms and statements that are nothing like the drawing style that I do in that way.

So you have to constantly be making and making and making, I think you get to a point where it really starts to just become inherently yours. And your voice is your sensibilities and your voice comes through. And sometimes that could just be about the content, obviously the style, but you have to be willing to go through that and put in those hours and you finally come out. 

So it's a big thing for me because in my industry you do see a lot of ripping off. You see a lot of co-opting. I just did this Nike shoe that came on two months ago with Kevin Durant, and it was such an incredible experience because I did this basketball court for the kids at PS 315 in Brooklyn for their school in relation in partnership with Kevin Duran's Charity Foundation. And we did this in 2020 where I drew all over this basketball court for this community. That's another thing. It's like when you art should be accessible. And that's the way I think about it. And it's like, you make something for that. Those kids, I walk away, I made this art. Those kids get to, that's their court. You know what I mean? They get to tell people, I have the dopest basketball court you've ever seen. It's their court, it's their community, the community's court. And there's a sense of pride and ownership over the art that has nothing to do with me

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

And I think that's

Noor Tagouri:

Where it's an act of service.

Timothy Goodman:

Yeah, exactly. So anyways, to come back when Kevin Durant knew shoe was to come out, and Nike came to me to to do the art for the shoe because they were inspired by the basketball court that we did together. And that's such a huge thing because you, in my industry with these massive conglomerates like Nike or whoever, oftentimes they'll co-opt the work. They'll just do it internally. They'll just do some bad poor version of the work that some independent artist has penetrated the zeitgeist with. And oftentimes that what that artist can be black or brown or queer, and these brands are co-opting their work. And so the fact that Kevin fact that Nike was like, let's go directly to the artist and ask him to do this work was rare. And it was incredible. And so, I don't know, I'm kind of going off. I don't remember

Noor Tagouri:

The KD 15 Timothy Goodman.

Timothy Goodman:

That's right. Nike.com.

Noor Tagouri:

It's wild.

Timothy Goodman:

But I don't know, I forgot what your initial question was, but

Noor Tagouri:

Well, I think, no, we were talking about how you felt about artist comparisons and honoring people's legacy. And I felt like that still felt very relevant because it's about people honoring the artists themselves.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And then I've had my work ripped off by massive conglomerates and fashion brands, and it's hurt and it's been hard. And I've tried to fight and you can't do anything because I don't have a million dollars to fight them in court for a year or something. And it's like, you see these companies squash these artists and it's really heartbreaking. But there's a lot to be said. About a couple months ago, I had to do a whole Instagram post and kind of put my flag in the ground about Mr. Doodle. Do you know Mr. Doodle? Yeah. Because all these, suddenly he drew all over his house or whatever, and he got even bigger and more famous. And all these people were writing on some of my posts saying that I was, I'm a rip. I was ripping him off and that I had been copying him and all these things. And it was just so, and I was so dumbfounded because I started this, I did my first mural when he was in high school. You know what I mean? My sharp people came out in 2015 while he was a senior in college.

I haven't even know who this guy was until a couple years ago. So the fact that people are so you have to, and it sucks, but I have to make a post and put my flag in the ground and be like, here's my work. Here's what I've been doing. I've been doing this since 2011, since I started working. And both our styles have become more of refined, but I didn't even know what this guy was. You know what I mean? So just because this guy has more followers than me now, or he is more famous than me now, doesn't mean anything. And in terms of the kind of work I'm doing or that I came first, yeah, I don't say he's ripping me off or anything, I'm just saying. 

But also we should all be bowing on to the grandfather, Keith Haring, who started this initial style. And also, my work is wildly different than his. My work is all editorial in the sense he draws characters. I'm drawing about every place to go in New York or in Paris or whatever. And it's full of lettering and type. It's so much, it's so different. But I guess to folks, they just see the black line drawings and they just think, oh, it's like, but would you think that way, if you heard Naz and Jay-Z, would you think they're ripping each other off? Or you, because they're both from New York and or have you heard any two classic rock bands or whatever?

Noor Tagouri:

But this is the whole, oh, we're all coming from genres. Yeah. I mean it's also the circle back to this, the online in real life and how it comes with the territory now. But you have found a way to translate your work into books, into shoes, into packaging, into murals. And once it's released, it kind of has a life of its own. And it doesn't really entirely always belong to you. But at the end of the day, you somehow you're able to still fully express yourself while putting out work that is still of service to others. And your word of the year is service. Service. We talked about that earlier this year. And I'd love to know what your relationship with that word is right now and what question you are asking yourself this year because of it.

Timothy Goodman:

Well, it's interesting because this year started, my book was published at the end of January, so I kind of hit the ground running

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah

Timothy Goodman:

It was very intense. And it might not have been the way I wanted to start the year. Cause I would like to kind of glide into the year without so much kind of a responsibility. And so I'm finally taking a breath now, so I'm very happy to be talking to you because I feel like, ah, this kind of stuff is behind me a little bit and I'm in a good space. Not that I wasn't in a good space there. I was just a very kind of hectic space. And so I'm not quite sure what my question is right now. I do feel that I want to think about, just think the relationship that I'm having with everyone around me at all times and that I'm kind of honoring those relationships and that I'm honoring my existence. And whether that is feeling my feet on the ground or taking a deep breath in the midst of it all, or looking at someone's the side of their face and just seeing who they are. Those moments, those little moments right now feel so precious to me, so sacred. And so I'm just really trying to consume that a sponge as much as possible. Yeah. And I think that is about service in so many ways because in order to serve, you have to be in a good holistic space. You have to be serving yourself

Noor Tagouri:

You have to be a service to yourself first.

Timothy Goodman:

Exactly. And to serve others, I think that you have to see them. And what does it mean to see someone, what does it mean to affirm their existence as much as your own? So

Noor Tagouri:

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to wrap with this thing that we do called If you really Knew Me. So it's just a statement. If you really knew me, you would know. And you can just give us a few, however many come out really. And you don't have to think too much about them at all.

Timothy Goodman:

If you really knew me, you would know that I love chickpea cookies. If you really knew me, you would know that I fucking love New York City. Yes. Everything I do is to honor New York in so many ways. If you really knew me, you would know that, oh, there's a good one here somewhere. Let it come to me. Let it come to me. You would know that I love talking to taxi drivers so much. If you really knew me, you would know that I'm tall and sitting in economy on the airplane is very difficult.

Noor Tagouri:

That's a good one.

Timothy Goodman:

If you really knew me, you would know that. I love this show called Felicity so much. You can catch it on Hulu right now. Don't sleep on it. Give it the first two episodes are slow. Just give it.

It's incredible.

She's one of the youngest people to ever wear a golden Globe for her acting in it. I think she might be the youngest person. I'm like, huge fan.

Noor Tagouri:

Love that.

Timothy Goodman:

Should I just keep going?

Noor Tagouri:

You can give us, let's get one more closing poetic. It's like this, I actually engage when I do my talks, we do an, if you really knew me segment and I have everybody anonymously do it and then perform it as a poem. Oh, that's incredible. And it's really, yeah, because you can, it's just downloads. So give us our, your final, if you really knew me to put us,

Timothy Goodman:

Not to go back to the airplane thing, but if you really knew me, you would know that I can't stand when people put their window, their windows down. How can you not look outside the magic of flying? I don't know.

Noor Tagouri:

I think that's perfect.

Noor Tagouri:

That's beautiful. I am with you on that one. Yeah, I really am. Thank you so much, Timothy. Thank you so much. This is awesome.

Timothy Goodman:

We're here.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER TIMOTHY GOODMAN, MAKE SURE YOU GRAB A COPY OF HIS GRAPHIC MEMOIR: I ALWAYS THINK IT’S FOREVER.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE. 

(Transcript) Lindsay Peoples and Samira Nasr: Advice to Journalists, Working in Fashion Media, and The Role of Editor-in-Chief

INTRO: 

3…2..1..WELCOME TO OUR FIRST GROUP STORYTELLING SESSION! I LOVE FACILITATING PANEL DISCUSSIONS AND FOR THIS SEASON OF POD NOOR, WE WANTED BRING THAT COLLECTIVE ENERGY HERE. AND FOR THIS WEEK’S EPISODE, IT REALLY IS A SPECIAL GIFT. OUR STORYTELLERS THIS WEEK ARE NOT ONE, BUT TWO, OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND PROMINENT MAGAZINE EDITORS. SAMIRA NASR, IS THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF HARPERS’ BAZAAR MAGAZINE, AND THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO HOLD THE TITLE. SAMIRA WAS PREVIOUSLY AT VANITY FAIR, WHERE SHE SERVED AS EXECUTIVE FASHION DIRECTOR. AND IN HER OWN WORDS SHE IS QUOTE: THE PROUD DAUGHTER OF A LEBANESE FATHER AND TRINIDIDADIAN MOTHER…AND HER WORLDVIEW IS EXPANSIVE AND ANCHORED IN THE BELIEF THAT REPRESENTATION MATTERS. 

ALONGSIDE SAMIRA, WE WELCOME LINDSAY PEOPLES. EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE CUT MAGAZINE. ALSO, ONE OF THE NATION’S RARE BLACK WOMEN EDITORS IN CHIEF. LINDSAY WAS PREVIOUSLY THE EIC OF TEEN VOGUE, AND THE YOUNGEST EDITOR IN CHIEF OF A CONDE NAST MAGAZINE. SHE ALSO CO-FOUNDED THE BLACK IN FASHION COUNCIL, which has enlisted the support of the Human Rights Campaign to provide benchmarking around corporate policies and practices that are pertinent to the inclusivity of Black employees.

I HAVE BEEN IN AWE OF BOTH OF THESE WOMEN FOR YEARS. WITNESSING UP CLOSE THE WAY THEY HAVE BROKEN BARRIERS BOTH IN JOURNALISM AND IN FASHION. 

AND IT IS RIGHT HERE, ON PODCAST NOOR, THAT THESE TWO POWERHOUSES ARE IN A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME. WELCOME TO OUR FIRST PODCAST PANEL. LET’S GET INTO IT. 

Noor Tagouri:

I love you both so much and I'm so grateful that you're both here together. But I've actually never seen you guys in conversation together. And you both,

Samira Nasr (00:45):

We've never done this. We've never done

Noor Tagouri (00:46):

But you both run publications that I am a huge fan of but also have completely different approaches and voices and visions. And so I think if I feel so honored and grateful that you are here and you're going, we're to be conversation and the way that we kick off these conversations is a question I've asked you both probably a hundred times. And I love that you maybe already know what the question is. But the question is, how is your heart doing today? And since Samira I felt coming out of your body as soon as I saw you, you can kick this off.

Samira Nasr (01:21):

I was going to kick it to you, but I'll take it. Yes. My heart is very heavy. It's been heavy for a long time. It is especially heavy with the news coming out of Kansas and that little boy who was simply just being in the world and going to pick up his two siblings. And I just, I'm at a point and we were talking about this earlier where I can't can't, my nervous system and it's not even happening to me, but it is happening to me. And my nervous system can't take much more of the, it's, it's just death and destruction. And there are just certain groups that are not safe in this country. And it's that compounded with our rights and being decimated. It's like every day you wake up and you read the paper and it's like another incredible book has been banned Rights body, the right to choose and make choices about our bodies are being taken away slowly across this whole country. Little boys are being murdered. I mean my heart is heavy, my heart is so heavy and I, I'm know how to fix it. I wish I could fix it and I don't know how to fix it.

Noor Tagouri (02:56):

Thank you.

(02:59):

I don't want to cry today.

Lindsay Peoples (03:00):

I cry a lot.

Samira Nasr (03:01):

I cry all the time.

Lindsay Peoples (03:02):

I cry every day. I cry all the time.

Noor Tagouri (03:05):

Yeah, and we kind of need to know that too. I think crying is really great today, especially. So El, tell me about your heart.

Lindsay Peoples (04:57):

Oh man. What word would I use? I would say fragile.

Noor Tagouri (05:03):

Yeah

Lindsay Peoples (05:08):

It's like a weird combination of things. I think I love this job so much. Yeah, it's exactly what I never knew that I even wanted to do with my life. But it is relentless and it just requires a discipline that just doesn't let up that I think people don't really understand. And I take that in consideration when people will DM me and be like, why did the cut do this? Or why? I'm like, you have no idea how much work goes into it. Nothing is just for no reason. Everything specifically at the cut is so intentional and self sought out. And as Samira was saying, I think it just requires a lot of you to read everything, to know everything for your job. But then also because I care about the world and I want to know what is happening in the world, but then to try to change the world and try to make things better on top of that can feel a little insurmountable. And days today it's raining in New York and there's just a lot happening that I think it feels like one wrong thing and I'm like, okay, I need to lay down one more thing, which I hate feeling that way.

Noor Tagouri (06:37):

Both of you hold a position of editor in chief of both The Cut and Harper's Bazaar. What do you feel is the responsibility of an editor in chief of a publication of a media publication today? And how do you feel your definitions of that responsibility are different than maybe the publications you came from?

Lindsay Peoples (07:04):

I think traditionally the responsibility was to really take the throne of this is who we think is cool, this is what we think is happening. And I think a lot more of my approach is to let culture kind of decide and not be so judgmental, not be so that I think that we know and not be so set on judging whether a person should be canceled or whether a person is cool or how do we define if a person is good enough for something. And so I think my approach is just more, this is who I think people really love, want to follow care about, et cetera. Or this is what I think people need to care more about that other people care about. But this certain group of people don't understand why it's more important than they realize.

(07:55):

And I think that responsibility just shifted over time. But I think also both places that I've been editor-in-chief are places that I've worked before. And so I had just such a acute gut, deep love for Teen Vogue. And the same with the Cut, just read it all the time. As I got older, I read The Cut, but I grew up reading Teen Vogue and I still have all the old magazines. So I think my perspective was more so as someone who works there and then coming back, things that I wanted to build upon the foundation that was already there and things that I felt like I loved than I wanted to keep. And a lot of things that I felt like didn't serve the brand anymore.

Samira Nasr (08:40):

I would say for Harper's Bazaar, I like to say that we are at the intersection of luxury fashion and culture. And so while the people that I'm surrounded with, my colleagues, we all come from very distinct places, different places. We're all rooted in shared values. And I think we share a curiosity about our place and the world around us. So I think my job as editor-in-chief is to sort of set the direction and then a lot of times I just get out of the way, get out of the way and let them do what they are so gifted at doing. Certainly I bring my values and having existed for as long as I've existed in the world and been othered my whole life, that's something that's part of who I am. And so I have a natural curiosity towards injustice and to people and groups who, for whatever reason just don't feel included.

(09:56):

And so part of what I've taken a special joy in doing at Harper's Bazaar is making people feel included. And literally it is the greatest compliment that anyone can pay me when people stop me or whatever. And they say, I love what they're doing is I see myself and what you're doing. It is the single greatest compliment that anyone could pay me. But I think the job at EIC has changed so drastically now versus what it once was. I think back to these brilliant editors that have had these decades long career careers, but they literally just had a magazine to put out every month. Which can you imagine if that's all you had to do? No, we are media brands and we have to meet our audience wherever they consume us or wherever they're looking for us. So that's social media, that's digital, that's print. And so it's a lot more involved. It's a lot more complex. And I think to Lindsay's point it is, it's a lot of pressure.

Noor Tagouri (11:09):

Well, because there's also this added layer of responsibility that isn't typically included in your job description with words, but maybe is included in your job description when you're getting hired, which is this. And it's the same weight and heaviness that I feel on both of you every time I see you guys, because I know that there's, you're carrying this responsibility of there are the stories that we're presenting to the world and then there's the pain that is being presented in this world that is being experienced in this world. And how do we balance being of service in a way that our audience can actually receive it? Cause you can sit there and report on social justice and injustices all day, but you also know that you know exactly what story's going to get clicked on. And so there's this balance of making sure that you're using your team's time wisely and impactfully, but also that at the end of the day, you can't control how the story is received and you can't fully control the experience that ends up coming from it.

(12:20):

And I don't know, for me, I feel like if that was a responsibility that would keep me up at night because I just, like you said Samir, I don't know what I would do. And so in all of the, I don't know, what are some questions that you ask yourself so that you can do your jobs better? And I feel like this is so personal and it doesn't have to be specific to just the job, but what are questions that you're asking yourself about how you can show up as a human who happens to occupy such a profound job?

Samira Nasr (12:53):

I don't approach it like that. I really don't. I am comfortable with what I am rooted in. I, I very, I have a lot of things that I, there's a lot of doubt in me, but one thing that I never doubt is where I come from, who I am and what my values are. My moral compass is strong. So I don't ask myself those questions and I cannot be buried under the weight of worry in terms of how people are going to receive the stories. I think if you just do the, and also it's fashion and it shouldn't feel heavy. It should feel joyful and light. And we can tackle subjects with rigor and we can tackle subjects with an intensity. But I don't think what we do should feel heavy not reporting. I'm not a news organization and I make that really clear to the team, don't, not a news outlet.

(14:02):

So we can't cover the news, but how can we cover the things that we care about in the way and bring them into our world and look at them through our lens. And beyond that, I can't worry about how people are going to receive those stories if we do it with a clear heart and we work hard on these stories once they go out in the world. I think so many people have touched them because that's the beauty of what we do. It's teamwork. So if I may not have a blind spot, someone on my team doesn't have that same blind spot, so they're like, oh, did you think about this? And so that's the beauty of collaboration because we all come at it with different blind spots and we can all catch one another. And then once it goes out, I can't worry about that. Let go. I got it. Let go of that. Yeah.

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Noor Tagouri (14:48):

Thank you for sharing that. What about you?

Lindsay Peoples (14:52):

I think it's more of, we were talking about cooking. I think it's more of when you're making a meal, there's certain things that you're making at certain times when you time, time meal that you're making. So it's like there could be your main dish in the oven that's cooking for a couple hours, but then you're moving stuff on the stovetop and constantly moving things around of what's warm, what's ready, what takes longer to cook. And I think a lot of times I'm not really thinking about, I don't really have the bandwidth honestly, to think about myself or what I think or what people are going to worry about. Yeah. Because man, I can't even go there because it doesn't, I don't even have the space honestly, mentally. I think it's more so we want the journey at the cut to be an adventure for people.

(15:38):

We want it to be a relationship. I don't want it to be transactional. I don't want it to be just like, oh, I see this one thing and then I saw it and then I'm done. I want it to really feel like they know us and they're part of a community. And I mean we like to say, we want to be the thing in your group chat. We want to be the thing that you're sending to your friends like, oh, did you see this? We have to talk about this at dinner, et cetera. And I think obviously New York Magazine a lot more news oriented, but a lot of it for me is, okay, if the lens is inclusivity, then what ways do we find into all these stories that there's going to be some things that we really want to do? And that there's, there's going to be some things that are really going to break my heart that we have to do regardless of how we feel about it. And so I feel like I'm constantly moving things around editorially to make sure that it is a journey and that it's not one note. So even when I think about last year, cause I was looking at covers this morning for something around this time we did the Trayvon Martin Black Lives Matter issue, but then we did the Women of Euphoria and then we did a service issue on abortion. We like to keep it spicy as I would say, but it's important

Noor Tagouri (16:51):

It's very light fold, life fold. It does kind of feel like we're getting, I don't know your description of we want to be in your group chats. That's very much what's happening. Yeah. In our lives. Okay. So tell me about the resources that magazines are actually getting right now. I'm so curious about, no, I know this is why I'm asking because there's like, people have very strong feelings about I think print media right now or just magazines in general. What are the actual resources that you're getting? What are the resources that are needed and how are you balancing that navigation?

Lindsay Peoples (17:36):

I laughed because I remembered the other day I was talking to someone about when we used to have swim editors and dem editor denim editors. There used to be so many.

Noor Tagouri (17:44):

There was an editor just for Swim for

Lindsay Peoples (17:46):

Market Deni. Yeah. There was always just a swim person that just went to Miami Swim fashion.

(17:53):

There used to be so many different editors and I feel like now because we have podcasts and TV and dada it, it's meshed into a lot of different jobs into one. But I think a lot of it, honestly for me in this job, there are a lot of resources, but I think there's so much happening that it's hard to figure out what is this thing that we want to put our weight behind? And especially because you do a lot of long form or investigative reporting, you want to make sure that the bet that you're making is a smart one and a safe one in the sense of safe. And in the sense of this is the reporting's not going to fall through or people aren't going to say that they don't want to be part of the story anymore or something like that. And writers work for a really long time on a story and then they need something else to take a break from. And so I think the resources are there and the desire for journalism is there. But I also think people don't understand the amount of work that it takes to go into to pieces. I mean just production of shoots is so many people. But I do think even if I'm just specifically talking about reporting, a lot of times I don't think people understand when they'll say like, oh, why did you do this story? And this feels like it.

(19:15):

This feels like it. This feels like it. There wasn't enough people. And it's like, you don't realize we could talk to a hundred people just to get to just get to this reporting that we do have. And fat checkers and lawyers, there's so many people involved. And so I do think the resources are there for the right kinds of stories. But traditionally shoots used to cost way more than they do now. For sure. I would say

Samira Nasr (19:40):

I would just add, I would amplify that or I would second that we have resources. It's so many other places that we need to, it's like where are you going to allocate them to and what are you going to get behind and how are you going to use them? Yeah. It's not that we don't have resources. You have to be wise in how you use them. Yeah, well and where are they going? And I would also agree that this idea that when people say, oh, I just do print, I'm like n n no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You work at Harper's Bazaar and we are nimble and we work across platform and it's just, you may be print focused, but that doesn't mean just this mentality that people just do. One single thing is very outdated. I think people have to consider that these are brands and we work at a brand and there may be a focus, but people mean so many people on my team work cross platform. And that's just how we have to be. And as I have to decide, okay, if this is the pie of resources, how am I going to allocate them strategically? And it is something that is very hard to learn. It is something that I really struggle with and it's actually one of my immediate goals is to get better at being more strategic about it.

Noor Tagouri (21:12):

Thank you for sharing that. I remember when I first started journalism school, when I was in journalism school 10 years ago, and how at the time all my professors were adjuncts. So they all worked in news and in media. And I just remember I had this one professor who kept telling all of us, gone are the days where you can get away with being able to do one thing in this industry. You have to be able to do everything. And we would call ourselves MMJ's, multimedia journalists. You have to be able to shoot produce to write, to do all of the things. And before we got on started recording Samira, we were talking about the things that we didn't learn in journalism school or the things that we remember learning in journalism school. And so I'm curious to hear about how, based on your journalism school educations, what do you think is missing from, or what do you think needs to be added to how we are teaching young people to be journalists? And then the follow up to that is, and do you find yourself still encouraging people to pursue journalism? Given the industry that we are in?

Samira Nasr (22:24):

I think we need journalists now more than ever. So yes, I'm encouraging anyone to pursue that. I think now more than ever, we need people to be reporting on what's happening in our world because there's so much noise and so much distraction. And so people who are committed to their ideals, truth, that really matters now more than ever. But again, I don't work at a news organization, so it, it's hard to take literal those principles very literally. Of course, we do long some great features that Leah Chernikoff who's our executive editor spearheads. And I really believe in those. And like Lindsay said, it's like fact checkers and lawyers and all these people that get involved in that. And those stories are important, but we approach everything very much to the lens of fashion, of luxury fashion.

Noor Tagouri (23:24):

But personally, what do you think we need to be talking more about within teaching young storytellers and young girls?

Samira Nasr (23:35):

Go out and live? I think there's this thing, I remember one of my teachers said, the best thing you could do is go work for a small town newspaper. Absolutely. I still believe that. I still believe that. I think there's something in living and where you're learning and observing and living life and then figuring out who you want to be and what stories matter to you. And starting with those and to smart at a start, excuse me, at a a small town paper. I mean hopefully they still exist. I think it's supporting essential. Yeah, it's really, really essential.

Noor Tagouri (24:16):

I always find myself, when young journalists ask me for advice and their intention is always, I move to New York or I want to move to whatever one of the top 10 markets. I'm like, no. If you have the opportunity to report in your town

Samira Nasr (24:27):

Yup

Noor Tagouri (24:29):

Build

(24:29):

Rapport and this with your community members,

(24:31):

You can tell phenomenal stories there. You're able to get out of your town telling amazing local stories, which local news to me is where my heart is at. I look so much same. Then you're going to be able to find the local and the global wherever you go. Cause then you'll know the importance of having a relationship with your deli guy or having a relationship with local city council member having a relationship with the local teacher. 

But Lindsay, what about you? How are you feeling about the state of journalism education and just encouraging people? And I know that it's so important to be encouraging. We need journalists now more than ever. But also the reality of it is, especially in this business, I always tell people, don't go into journalism for the money. There's no money in this

Lindsay Peoples (25:14):

Definitely not.

Noor Tagouri (25:15):

And also, and job security now because people are, so many people are now full-time freelancers because they've felt the burn of these mass layoffs in our industry. And so it's just people are really struggling to hold on to want, still wanting to be a journalist because it's not entirely a rewarding job. So do you find yourself ever feeling guilty with when people are coming to you and want to pursue this, but how hard it is for it to become sustainable?

Lindsay Peoples (25:49):

I mean, I think I am incredibly transparent about my journey and how hard it's been. And that's why I say it because I think that people don't understand. They think that we're looking at a rack of pretty clothes all day and I'm like, that doesn't happen to me. And so I do. And because I didn't grow up here and coming from the Midwest and trying to find my way, and so I do, that's why I literally shared that because I do think so many young people think just a hop, skip and a jump. And it is not, I mean, think that we're always going to need writers. I don't, and I don't think that that's a bad thing to encourage people to want to be in journalism. But I do think we need more bravery in journalism. I think that a lot of people want to write the same thing over and over again. I mean, the amount we have open an open email where people can pitch the cut and all of the cut editors look at it. So it gets automatically sent to me and the senior editors and a lot of people pitch the same things over and over again.

Noor Tagouri (26:47):

Do you have examples that you think that are at the top of

Lindsay Peoples (26:48):

Really embarrassing things. Things that I just don't want to write about at all right now? The one we were laughing about last week was people kept being like, there's this new cowgirl trend like that everybody is. And it's like, no one cares. I don't care. And we're not writing about this, so please stop sending me this. And it's like, this is the new way that all the girls that girls are dressing and here's an essay on it for 5,000 words, absolutely not going to read it. And I think a lot of times can come from a good place or people just wanting to write something, but it's like you're literally just taking a tweet and trying to make it into an essay, which it is not. And I think also I want, I'm attracted to the stories that require a sense of bravery and just a sense of I'm a little scared to do it.

(27:41):

Not terrified. And I get that's not for everyone that that's my jam. But I think if you're not a little worried about it, it's, I mean, things can be beautiful, things can be nice, all of that. And I think there's space for that. But if you're not a little, is this going to edge a little bit? Then sometimes I feel like it usually doesn't hit for me. Or even if it's just something that we haven't done before. And that makes me a little bit scared of like, well, we haven't done this before. We haven't taken on this kind of project before. We haven't done it this big before. Yeah, that's always something I'm looking for. But I always give young people specifically the same advice, which is that they need to be hungry to do the work. Because I do think with social media, everybody wants the attention.

(28:23):

They want to say in their cover letter to me, 80 people shared this story. And I'm like, congratulations, I'm happy for you, but are you going to go after the work even when you don't feel like it? Are you going to be hungry to do this work unless thirsty for the attention that comes around being a writer or being at a magazine, et cetera. And I think that hunger no one can give you. Yeah, it has to be within you. Nobody wakes me up every day and it's like, okay, you can do this, Lindsay. It's like I have the hunger to do it. And so I do think that's more so what I want young people to understand because if you're in it because you think you're going to get famous or you're going to get TikTok followers, you should probably just do something else.

Samira Nasr (29:10):

I mean, that applies to everything. You shouldn't be doing it if you're just seeking fame.

Noor Tagouri (29:18):

Is that more common than not?

Lindsay Peoples (29:21):

Incredibly common in fashion.

Noor Tagouri (29:23):

Yeah,

Samira Nasr (29:23):

I think in everything right now. Yeah, I think in everything right now. Yeah.

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Noor Tagouri (29:28):

Well, let's talk about fashion. What are you feeling about your places in fashion and in this industry today? Right now? On a personal level?

Samira Nasr (29:44):

Yeah, don't, sorry. I don't think, I don't about that. Again, that's none of my business. I'm here in certain spaces and because I'm in certain spaces, other people who have traditionally been excluded are now in other spaces. And collectively we are filling more seats, occupying more space. It will never go back. What people make of that think of that is none of my business. It's none of my business. I just know that I deserve to be in these spaces and I feel very lucky to be in these spaces. So I still feel privileged to be included and I don't take that privilege lightly. And I always say to my team, I don't know how long we're going to have the keys, so let's go for it and do things that we believe in that matter to us. How people read that again, because if I have to start unpacking what that means to everybody, it's a lot for me to carry. So I just don't do my best in these spaces, try and pull as many people as I can in and what that means for other people. I can't focus on that.

Noor Tagouri (31:23):

Also you both are able to witness fashion from the inside. And so you have been able to track the changes and how the industry is evolving. And so I'd love to just know as a lover of fashion as a storytelling platform, how are you witnessing this specific medium of storytelling show up in the world today as a service?

Lindsay Peoples (32:13):

I think mean for me personally, no matter the job, I think people in trash really didn't know what to do with me. They were like, she's very unapologetically black. She doesn't, she really likes this, but she's very, this is who she is. And Samira and I have always had that in common. We're just like, look, it's who I am. Take it or leave it. It is what it is. And I think when you show up that it can often make people really uncomfortable. And this has been a lesson in my old age now that I have to be

Samira Nasr (33:02):

You're still young. You're still young.

Lindsay Peoples (33:06):

I have to get really comfortable with people being uncomfortable with me and not even that, that I will necessarily care. But I think just letting it sit in me and when you know, just let something bother you a little bit and then a little bit more and a little bit more. And then you just start to realize that it changes maybe your decisions or how you move in the world. And so I do think, especially even in these jobs, a lot of times the industry likes to have things in boxes. Okay, we get this person, this is how they are. We get this publication. Or if you like fashion, then this is the magazine that you read. Instead of understanding that we are nuanced, multifaceted human beings. And if I like fashion, but I also really care about the world. And that's why I, Teen Vogue was such a fun fit for me because it meant so much to me to be at a brand that celebrated a lot of things in a different way and tapped into an audience that I felt was really underappreciated. But I do think it can be confusing for the industry if I'm saying inclusivity is a lens in which I see everything in which we do. I think a lot of times people think that, think of that in boxes of, yes, okay then you're doing everything for black people during February. And then you're doing everything in very siloed ways where I'm just thinking of look like this is all the time.

Samira Nasr (34:29):

But that's why, I mean, it's none of the, your business, you said about your work with intention and you go through your life with intention and clarity. And so how that lands for other people and the expectations that they suddenly think they have for you and how you are, it's none of your business, it's none of your business otherwise, then you're supposed to navigate how other people, what they want you to be doing and what they expect from you.

Noor Tagouri (34:57):

That's also why you are the editor.

Noor Tagouri (34:59):

That's part of the job is being able to, sometimes I wonder if the job of being an editor or curator or the person who's bringing the community story builder in that way is simply to create enough space for you to be clear in what you're seeing and maintain that sense of intention without being swallowed by the noise or other's opinions.

Samira Nasr (35:23):

Well, we also have to continue consider the brands that we work for, I'm the EIC of Harper's Bazaar. So I have to consider that legacy and that tradition and the history of that brand. I think if I were at another brand that it would look different, of course I would bring myself to that in the same way that I bring myself to my current role. But it always has to be from the point of view of what is this brand and you know, can move the needle certainly, and you can shift it, but there's a tradition upon which that I'm building and this brand will hopefully, and I will go on for a hundred more years. And longer than that long, I have the keys for a very short amount of time. So I have to think about the tradition and the history and move within that context. That's a context and a framework that I'm working within. And I have to consider that.

Noor Tagouri (36:15):

Thanks for sharing that. That's very, that felt very, very clear. What is inspiring you both in fashion today? What's giving you hope?

Lindsay Peoples (36:29):

Hope is a big one.

Samira Nasr (36:34):

Oh boy. What's giving me hope? I recently did a panel discussion and I looked it out at all the kids that were in the room that were curious about fashion and were determined to participate in whatever way they could. And that is very hopeful for me. I just think there's always going to be things that are heavy and can bring you down and kind of suck the hope, but I'm going to choose to shift my gaze and find it in the people I know who are curious about this industry want to participate and they will carry it forward.

Noor Tagouri (37:17):

What about you, Lindsay?

Lindsay Peoples (37:19):

I do think a couple days ago I was at a dinner and a woman came up to me and shared her story and just how something that we had been writing on The Cut really touched her. And it's similar how to Samira said of when someone says that they see themselves in the worked. I think that there is really nothing more gratifying. But I think just knowing that we helped someone and met them in a really particular moment in their life when they needed something, gives me a sense of hope of, okay, on the right track we're doing, we're something right. Yeah, because that's hard to come by and I think mean there's so much out there. And I mean, when I open my computer, open up 30 tabs of every website, there's a lot to read out there. And so the fact that people read our magazines that that's a privilege in itself.

Noor Tagouri (38:11):

Yeah. How do you approach your reading for work?

Lindsay Peoples (38:15):

Oh, mine is

(38:17):

There. I don't recommend it. No, I mean, honestly I feel like I read. So I just started reading for fun again, which has been really nice because that was a big shifted from Teen Vogue to this job where it felt like at Teen Vogue we obviously covered a lot of politics, activism, but it was obviously geared towards a younger audience. And so a lot more news and just general news and lifestyle goes into obviously writing at The Cut and new magazine. So when I open my computer, it opens up 30 something tabs of every website just to scan the news of what's going on. And we're obviously just in Slack and everybody's putting stuff that somebody's going to blog, but I'm still coming up with a lot of ideas. That's a big part of my job as well, which it kind of changes for every editor in chief, just depending on the publication.

(39:12):

And so a lot of times a small little story and then I'll think maybe we should do a package around them maybe, which is a series. Should I try to turn that to a cover? It's a whole thing. But I did start reading for fun for myself, which was hard to shift the gear because I feel like I'm just used to, okay, let me read this piece and see if we should have a take or should we skip it? I'm just used to reading to get the information out of it, instead of just pausing, having a cup of tea, reading something that has nothing to do with work. Cause that's also the weird part about these jobs, I don't find, not really, but I don't find TV or movies that enjoyable anymore because we watch so much of it for work because we're like, oh, should we cover that person? Should we put them on a cover? Did we write an essay about this? Everything can be a story. Everything can be a story. That's the problem. So honestly, I have to read stuff that's completely separate of, we don't cover this. This is not anything for work. Cause my brain as intellectual, my brain can't differentiate. Differentiated.

Noor Tagouri (40:16):

Samira, you relate?

Samira Nasr (40:18):

It's really embarrassing actually. It's really sad. My team is, I’ve never been so disengaged from pop culture in my entire life. And it's not because I'm not interested, I'm absolutely interested, but it's just so much to be on top of and to consume. And it's so challenging. And again, reading every site all day and specifically ours and all of the people whose work I admire and news and trying to think of what's happening. And then on top of that, I've got a binge watch and all these things, it's just too much for me. So I've decided I can't do it all. And they're things that I just don't watch, I don't see. I trust that my team will say, we need to be on top of this and then I'll dip my toe in and whatever. But my greatest, when I travel now when I fly, I'm not even watching films on television on the plane.

(41:15):

I'm not watching. I'm literally staring into space because I just want to dream and think about ideas and what we should be doing. And I mean, people on the plane are kind of looking at me. Is she okay? Because I just sit there and I fixate on a spot and I will just sit there and just in my head, that's amazing because I need that time to just not have my, I'll read a little bit and I love reading, but it's like I just need to take a step back and be in my head a little bit. And it's probably because I've always been a dreamer as a kid. I've always been a dreamer. And so if I don't have that time, I'm sort of off my axis. I don't know what I'm doing and then I feel like I'm playing and no, I can't bring intention to anything that I'm doing.

Noor Tagouri (42:10):

I actually started making a habit of that on the plane too, where I turn my phone off completely and I do nothing

(42:16):

And I just sit.

(42:17):

Yeah. And because you're literally in the clouds, the plane is a reminder of how tiny we are, how insignificant we are in that moment at least. And I think that's of such an important practice. And then sometimes your voice, inner voice comes through and it just gives you a question or a word or an idea and you're like, oh, that's next. Okay, thank you. That was what I meant too about creating the space so that you can receive where you move next or what you do next. And it's so proud of and in awe and inspired by you both too, because it's so clear. And I texted this to you the other day, Lindsay, it's so clear that you guys are making the work that you need for yourselves that you want to see for yourselves too. It is in service of your reader and the brand, but it's also, it also is covered in your light.

(43:14):

And that's so important because I think that that's why people are feeling more seen and that's why people are feeling more heard and that's why conversations are happening that are more regular now, but only recently. So I would love to, I'll ask you this final question before a little fill in the blank. We do, and I sincerely ask this because at the beginning of this conversation we talked about, but what do we do? I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Just the state of the world and everything that's going on. And of course you both are in the fashion space. And so I would love to know what is the conversation that we need to be having more of or amplifying more in this moment right now in fashion? And then if that changes outside of fashion as well, I would love to hear it too. 

Samira Nasr (44:10):

I would say meaningful equity.

Noor Tagouri (44:12):

Tell me more.

Samira Nasr (44:14):

I think in fashion, I think true equity for all people. Not just, oh, well, we've hired these three people, so we're done. And not just, it's like business people, creatives. How do we make it feel like even equity for emerging designers to feel like they have a shot now more than ever. It's so challenging wherever you're from to be an independent designer, how do we create more equity for everyone? And the beauty about fashion is that it is a mirror. It reflects what's happening in the world. And we as editors, we are documenting history. So how if we can bring meaningful equity into our little community, our little microcosm, I believe it can spill out into everywhere and it can have a ripple effect. So how can we create meaningful equity for all people? How can we bridge to other communities? How can we make people feel like they can contribute in a meaningful way and not be tokenized?

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Noor Tagouri (45:34):

How do we prevent tokenization in fashion though?

Samira Nasr (45:37):

I struggle with that. I think intention, I think a lot goes back to intention and why you're bringing people on the intention behind it and never thinking that you've accomplished enough. The work can never be done.

Noor Tagouri (45:56):

Thank you for saying that. The work can never be done.

Samira Nasr (45:59):

It's never like, oh, this is what we look, this is great. We're good. It's a constant commitment to inviting people in the most subtlest of ways to the most obvious of ways. Yes. And it can never, I think the minute we feel like, oh, well we did that. Yeah, I think we haven't actually. And I think it's intention and commitment to just forever being doing this work.

Noor Tagouri (46:32):

And I don't think that's a good or a bad thing. I think that that just is. But it's a really important truth to acknowledge out loud because it goes back to you saying, we have the keys for this brief moment. Every single person who has a job, who has a role in this space, has the keys for a very brief moment. What are you going to do with it?

Samira Nasr (46:48):

What are you going to do with it?

Noor Tagouri (46:49):

And it's not meant to finish anything. You're not meant to end anything. You're not meant to. You're just meant to make the impact that you can make and then make sure you're holding the door open for the next

Samira Nasr (46:58):

We're stewards of stewards. Right, exactly.

Noor Tagouri (47:02):

What about you, LP?

Lindsay Peoples (47:06):

I mean, I think that fashion really has changed so much It, it's crazy when I think about it, but I do think we have such a long way to go only because many reasons, but I think one big one is just there isn't an alignment of our values across the board, which I don't think we're all so different and we all come from different places and different people, all of that. But I do think the why of why we're doing this job is so different for so many people, but also why we want to continue doing it. And I often find that the industry feels a little bit not sustainable because you have to work so hard and you have to stay in it for so long. And it can feel like so much pressure of do I stay? How do I get better? How do I make this better?

(48:03):

All of that. Whereas I do think the why, and just in thinking about the inclusion of my values and what I want to bring to the table always really grounds me. And so I do think a lot of times when we talk about making a magazine, we both talk about being intentional a lot. Because I think if I'm saying yes to putting a person on the cover, it's not because I think that the person is, oh, this is just a nice idea. It's because I've really sat and thought about, okay, so why do we want to have this conversation? Why do we need to have it right now? And who's going to shoot them? And why would that person bring this about them to life? And how do we want the viewer to understand that what we're trying to convey in this person? And there's a million different things that go into it.

(48:48):

But I do think that fashion oftentimes can hold true a lot of the values of, well, we've always done it this way. Yeah, we've always right shot with this photographer. We've always worked with these models, we've always done it this way. And I just don't think about ideas or dream about it in that way. A lot of times for me, it'll come to me in dreams, honestly. Or I just will sit and think of if I wanted to make a cover or this moment really different, then what's the opposite way of going about it and what do I feel like people actually haven't done yet? They just brings a different note to it. And so I do think that there's always a struggle with fashion because we like to be progressive, but then we like to be really traditional in a sense. And I always feel that, especially now because when we go to shows in Europe, it's like you realize the same group, the very small group of us now. And I never realized that before I started coming to Europe because you Google the mast heads or that's what I used to do when I was younger and you'd know all these names and then you realize it's a quite small group of us. And so I think that that tension and that alignment of what do we really value? What's really important to us? Is it more important to kind of done, do the same things that we've always done? Or is it more important to actually move forward?

Noor Tagouri (50:19):

Thank you. Thank you so much. So the way that we wrap these conversations is a little fill in the blank. And if you really knew me, you would know and you can share one, two, or three things. I love how both of your eyes are

Lindsay Peoples (50:35):

If you really knew me, if you

Noor Tagouri (50:36):

Really knew me, you would know.

Lindsay Peoples (50:40):

If you really knew me, you would know that I love to cook. That's an easy one. But it is. It's very serious. I love it. Yes it is. Oh, it's one of the few things I have that I can turn my brain off. So it's like only two things for you. Yeah. What's the other one? Reading. But reading for fun. Yes. Not for work. What

Samira Nasr (51:03):

If you really knew me, you would know that I like to eat. Hint

Noor Tagouri (51:13):

A dinner,

(51:15):

But not so fashion, dinner. Fashion. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Any other, if you really knew me shares?

Samira Nasr (51:23):

If you really knew me, you would know that I do not know how to answer this question. I will leave that to the people who really know me. I don't know.

Noor Tagouri (51:33):

That's an interesting take.

Samira Nasr (51:34):

Yeah.

Lindsay Peoples (51:35):

Samira with a hot take.

Noor Tagouri (51:36):

I know, I know. Okay.

(51:39):

Okay. Thank you both so much.

Samira Nasr (51:41):

I love you. Thank you. I love you. I love you. Thanks for bringing us together and thank you. Thank you.

Lindsay Peoples (51:47):

That's easy.

OUTRO: 

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

THEME MUSIC IS THE SONG “THUNDERDOME, WELCOME TO AMERICA” BY PORTUGAL THE MAN. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLERS SAMIRA NASR AND LINDSAY PEOPLES.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE. 

(Transcript) Jonathan Van Ness (JVN) on Hair, Gender, and the Obsession to Control Bodies (Copy)

-INTRO: 3…2…1:  Jonathan Van Ness, also known as JVN is many things. In their own words, Jonathan is A hairstylist by trade turned personality, author, comedian… and an entertainer by life. You may know Jonathan from Netflix’s Queer Eye, or Jonthan’s podcast and netflix show: Getting Curious. I actually met Jonathan when they interviewed me for Getting Curious to talk about my documentary and podcast series, Sold in America: Inside our Nation’s Sex Trade. And then we both shared with each other our love for ice skating and gymnastics and Jonathan so graciously invited me to join them for weekly practices….etc.etc. This conversation is a long time coming. And it’s our first time seeing each other since the pandemic…WE ARE AT CITIZENM HOTEL IN BOWERY…this is more of a friendship focused conversation, because I actually have something on my heart I want to talk about. Hair. and what the big deal is…etc.  

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

So, I mean, this podcast is to be of service to you first and foremost, but okay. Not only, it's funny that you are mentioning getting curious

So this is I I, I'm beside myself. Cause I just want to say I miss you so much.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:06:30):

I miss you so much too.

Noor Tagouri (00:06:32):

Literally I think the day of lockdown in 2020, like we were still ice skating and tumbling and doing gymnastics together. And I was telling Sarah and Adam earlier, there was something in me during that time where I was just so grateful that you were, didn't even realize what you were doing, but you were giving me a space and permission to do gymnastics and to ice skate, which were things that I loved doing as a child so much. But then I stopped like on my own because once I started covering my hair and you were like, wait, what? You can continue doing this. You can still do this. So that was really where I feel like our friendship started to flourish and you felt like a home to me in that way. And then the pandemic hit

Jonathan Van Ness (00:07:23):

It was like, we just need a clip.

Noor Tagouri (00:07:26):

Yeah

Jonathan Van Ness (00:07:27):

Just a clip to keep it on there, honey. And then we can go upside down and or fall or whatever.

Noor Tagouri (00:07:31):

I know know. And you taught me so much during that time and I was so grateful for it. And um I was telling them we had never sat down for a personal podcast conversation. And I think maybe subconsciously I was like, I really wanted to just cherish the friendship that we were having, but I knew that the conversation was going to happen when it was meant to. And I didn't really know what it was going to be about. And I have been thinking about this conversation for the last couple of weeks because I wanted to flip the script. So when we first started, before we started recording this podcast, you had mentioned getting curious. And it's funny because earlier I was telling my team, I want to honored by you and honoring you. I want to approach this episode similar to a getting curious episode. And what I am currently getting curious about is hair. And I have been on my own really big hair journey and just after I did my rep investigation and I have begun really rethinking my own personal stories and my own identity labels and what all of these things really mean and what is it that I really believe in all of these things. I've been thinking a lot about my choice to cover, to not cover my hair. And in all of that, I realized I'm turning 30 years old this year and I started covering my hair when I was 15. So it's been

Jonathan Van Ness (00:09:09):

Half your life vibes,

Noor Tagouri (00:09:10):

Half of my life. So I'm like, this is a time, I feel like half of your life moment is a good time to rethink and to ask questions again and to make sure, is this something that I'm doing because I really feel like this aligns with me? Or is it something that I want to rethink? And in all of that, I realized that I find myself asking, well what's the big deal about hair anyway? What's all the noise about hair anyway? Why is it, why are people dying over this? And I think in the last 15 years, because before I started covering my hair, I would spend two hours in the morning doing my hair and I had a relationship with it. But I think the relationship that I had with my hair as a 14 year old child was one of how people were going to see me, what it would look like in front of other people or if they were going to like it or if they were going to like me.

(00:10:03):

And it was less about me because especially at that time, you're so impressionable to beauty standards. So a huge part of my hair routine was always straightening my hair. That was, that was naturally wavier. Curlier. And I wanted to look like the girls at school who were typically blonde and had super straight hair. And now as I'm rethinking it, I'm, I've been really grateful for the fact that the last 15 years almost, I just haven't internalized any of the pressure around a achieving a beauty standard or focusing on my hair for other people. It just hasn't been on my radar. But in covering my hair from the public, I think I also was covering my hair from myself and I wasn't really thinking about it. And in so many ways, that's been really healthy and great for me. And also now as approaching 30, I have been wanting to actually establish a relationship with this part of my body that I have never really talked to or engaged with or really felt. And I'm going to pause there because there's so much more I could say. But I really felt like I just wanted to share what was deeply on my heart. And so when I thought about who I wanted to talk to about this, you were the only one. And besides the fact that Adam and I only used JV N hair and we're actually obsessed and it truly is so thoughtfully crafted and you and your team are doing such important work with that.

(00:11:50):

And also I know that I love, I loved the episode of getting curious on Netflix where you talked about hair and the history of it and why it's been such a big thing. But I think maybe a good starting point is, ooh, I usually start with the question, how is your heart? But because hair is so important to you, maybe I can ask you, how is your hair

Jonathan Van Ness (00:12:13):

That's such a good que or That's such a good question. Yeah. Because also hair is so much more than hair. It is your heart. It's like it's really self-expression. And also I know that I don't know you the best of anyone in the world. But I will say when you were talking about that, when you got to the part when you were like, I've been rethinking a lot about your relation or when you said, I've been thinking a lot about my relationship to hair. There was a moment when you got really quiet and you got this look in your eye that literally looked like you were hang looking over the edge of a cliff. It was the same look that I feel like I have when I'm looking into something. I'm inks, I don't like heights, I'm nervous about a height, don't love them. Planes are fine, but not a stair height.

(00:12:51):

But it was like you were giving me looking into the abyss and I could literally feel like the level of this is a turning and also 30 mommy not to be baby, but dirty. That's really cute. You're, you're so wise beyond your ears. But yeah, hair is your heart. It's also, I don't know if you've ever heard that thing about how our psyches are forum from zero to seven, you're when you're a baby. And so when your hair and your relationship to your hair and how people receive you because of your hair, all of that is ingrained from such an early age how you start to see yourself and the experiences that you have. And then when you were saying my 14 year old self, I remember the first time my mom, I had to put a full court press on to let her get me highlights.

(00:13:36):

It was in a small mall in Florida and I got these highlights on vacation and I was so excited to go to school cause oh my God, are people going to notice? I really want compliments? Which in, when I look back, it's like I wanted validation and anyway that I could get it. And if my hair was the avenue or whatever, I just wanted the validation. So the hair is thriving, my heart is stressed, but my hair isn't really a stress, which is fierce, but it is still connected. So I don't really know exactly how to answer the question. But other than say that I'm loving your exploration, 

I got to interview Moja Madera and Nicolette Mason. Yeah. About it. And Oh my God, yeah, just and talk about duality. Sometimes I feel, and I don't even know if this is duality, but sometimes I feel so overwhelmed by the attack on trans people, women, non-binary, just all of the repression and patriarchy. And here it's when I was reading in the news about what was going on in Iran and happen to Iranian women, the overwhelm and what am I going to do? But then

Noor Tagouri (00:15:52):

I should also be really transparent in that my own exploration skyrocketed or really broke open in this most recent Iranian revolution.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:16:04):

And that's what I was kind of wondering.

Noor Tagouri (00:16:06):

I mean think for me it was the concept of a badged and armed morality. Police really unleashed something in me that I spent days crying and wailing up in our cabin. And I had to really understand where this pain was coming from. And it was because I was very familiar with the morality police from all ends. I think that ever since I started covering my hair people, it was always under scrutiny. It was always under, you're not doing this well enough. Why are you doing this to begin with? Whatever it was, it always talked about. And it's wild that this very personal decision has just always been political and publicized. And it's funny because my brother just sent this article in our group chat, and I had read this article, it was written about my family exactly 20 years ago. And I read the article for the first time. It was written when I was nine years old by the Department of Homeland Security.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:17:13):

Oh my God.

Noor Tagouri (00:17:14):

And in the article, there's an actual question that mentions me and my sister's name and it says, will they wear the hijab? And this article was on the Department of Homeland Securities website. That's where I found it. And it, it really activated something in me because I was, even when I was a child, even when I was nine and my sister was five people, were still, our own American government is amplifying this question on these children who it was never your right to ask that question. So, so we've seen this morality police, we've seen it all, and it's really hard to really, I'm still processing it obviously, and it's really difficult because my experience covering my hair has been so powerful and so positive and so comforting, and it's felt so carried because it was something I actually never thought I was going to do.

(00:18:20):

And so it's, on one hand, this scarf has been a companion and a friend to me for so long. And on another hand, I'm also trying to do this work of who am I outside of this? And that's why it kind of transcends just this piece of fabric. Who am I outside of all of these labels and these things that we don't realize that we get to rethink that. That's also a part of life is reevaluating the questions that we, we've asked our entire lives. And so I'm grateful that, I mean, I'm grateful and I admire the revolution that's happening in Iran and also in places like France and India where people are fighting to choose to have the right to choose to be able to cover their hair. Because to me, it's all about, it always. It's always been about choice. It's just always been about choice.

(00:19:20):

That's the thing. And so I have to also unpack in myself, well, if it is about choice, and maybe I feel like right now I don't know if I want to continue covering my hair, do I really feel like I have a choice? Or is the morality police on the internet or around me in person, are they going to get in the way? Which I would be lying if I said no, because I already feel it. I already see it. I already see how people talk about if they see me showing hair or whatever it is. And so it is really challenging. And it's funny because the week that the most recent Iranian revolution happened, I ended up going on this five day yoga retreat. And it was right after I finished rep. So I just needed a break to kind of recalibrate. But it was literally the day after I had posted this video about Samini and about the morality police and about asking people, what is the role that you are playing in this problem?

(00:20:16):

Because we don't really ask ourselves that. And that week I had this woman that I had met at the retreat who told me she had cut hair in high school. I, I think I want you to cut my hair off. I just wanted it all off. And I didn't understand why I was doing that. I felt like I was trying to tap into, I had this very big wild woman breakthrough of wild in the most n nature sense of the word of being a woman, of nature, of really trying to tap into that. And even as I was doing that, I didn't realize that I was also doing it because of this weight that I felt I was feeling on the heels of witnessing the women who were also cutting off their hair, who were also fighting for choice and stuff. I was just doing this for myself because it's what I, I was just following my intuition. But yeah, it's really been since then.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:21:16):

Yeah. I mean, don't know how you could have that not lead. You mean, obviously I'm, when you said it's about choice, it's always about always been about choice. Yes. It's always been about, I just say it louder for the people in the back. Yeah. We should have our ability to, whether you want to practice your faith, how you want to express your gender, how you want to control your reproductive future, yes, we should absolutely have our ability to self determine. And I think that when you look at what's happening in Iran or in the United States, or the common theme for me is patriarchy. And then I also was thinking, one thing that came up for me that I'm like that since we, well, actually this was before, but the older I get, the more I'm like, oh, binaries are our kind of enemy all the time.

(00:22:15):

Not only in gender, but if you cover your hair, then X, if you don't cover your hair, then X. Those are all, yeah, they're just so black and white. There is such a spectrum to everything that happens. I think even what is, there's a spectrum to even right and wrong. There's some things that are always wrong. physical harm, sexual abuse. But then there's some times where even what's right and wrong is a little bit more not so black and white. It takes two to tango. There's nuance, there's levels to this. So sometimes it's black and white, but then other times it's not black and white. And it depends on who you are and where you're from and how you see yourself in the world and all of your experiences, experiences that have led you to this point. 

So however, we can take a little bit of that, the edge off this fastball, I see so much, we're literally killing people for the choices they make that, while in the duality sense, they really, really matter, but they also don't really matter to you as far as if you take these trans laws that are, or these trans laws that are being debated all across the country.

(00:24:20):

People are so fired up about making these absolute rules that actually don't affect them because they're like, well, I did the X, Y, Z, or I want to protect children want to, but it's like if a kid wears a dress or if a kid goes to a therapist, does it affect you? Yeah, no. If someone wants to cover their hair or not, does it? It's really the idea of what these acts do in society. Transness is seen as a huge threat. Women self-determining in a run is seen as a huge threat to, in what it shares in common, the patriarchy or the ruling party. And it's just so silly because if, well, it's not silly cause people are dying and it's literally affecting people's lives. So in that sense, it's not silly. But then on the other hand, what is silly is that if you just let people be themselves, the fabric of society's not going to crumble. People said when schools are going to become integrated, that the fabric of society would crumble. When or interracial marriage became legalized, people said the fabric of society would crumble. When people have always said that yet time carries on, and yet things, people still grow, things still happen. The sun still comes up. So it just feels like there's this, things are treated as these absolute threats. And really the truth is a lot more nuanced and less black and white than I think we all are willing to believe.

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WWW.AYS.MEDIA/REP**

Noor Tagouri (00:25:40):

Yeah. What is the big deal about the dead cells that lay on top of our scalp?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:27:42):

Yeah, it's confusing, but in it seems like it's a lot of it is tied to gender roles So I think though, we like the idea of head covering in even whether or not it's the truth of the faith, which that's its own conversation. But then it's how our government's using their faith to impart their will on people and deem certain things as a threat while other things are not a threat. So a lot of it feels like what's the big deal about hair? A lot of it is tied to gender roles. Now, historically, I can speak more clearly from what happened historically in the West. Yes. And one thing that I've learned a lot in the podcast is, so obviously we know Darwin, right?

(00:29:32):

Yeah. Survival of the fittest. He did the whole genus species evolution. That's Darwin. And so that was in the late 17 hundreds. He had this first cousin named Francis Carlton that we're always talking about on the podcast, all fucking roads lead back to Francis Carlton. That's what I'm learning. He invented eugenics. So eugenics is essentially what the Nazis used in the final solution. So prior to World War ii, you literally had magazines in America that were eugenics weekly. It would be like, who is the prettiest southern bell? Who is the be like? So there's positive eugenics, which is good families breeding with good families. Then there's negative eugenics, which is we shouldn't be letting single parents, we shouldn't be letting women who've had 10 kids with eight different people, they should have four sterilization. That would be an idea of negative eugenics or four sterilizations were a huge aspect of negative eugenics.

(00:30:23):

And we even had state sanctioned forest sterilizations all through the history of America. And it wasn't until the 19, actually four sterilizations were happening on Native American people. I believe up through the seventies, there was a lot of four sterilization of black women, native American people, and also even there was Bell V. The United States literally saw the Supreme Court say like, oh yeah, you should do four sterilization because you had one. This woman was in the insane asylum. She was committed to the insane asylum because her mom was committed to the insane asylum. And then they wanted to take her newborn baby and put her in the insane, because they were like three feeble. The quote was, three generations of feeble minded people is enough cool from the United States Supreme Court. So they sided with the state and these four sterilizations. So all of this came from the pseudoscience of eugenics that was invented from this guy Francis Carlton.

(00:31:20):

And where that came from was, so in the 16 hundreds and 17 hundreds, if you look at the writings, these European explorers would go to Africa, they'd go to Senegal and they'd say, these women are beautiful. They had these beautiful breasts. They had these beautiful curves. The way that they would speak about Native Americans. It was more positive. It wasn't as vilifying in earlier writings in European explorers. Then as you get in the 17 hundreds, then it's like these Native Americans are letting the women hunt, the men wear skirts. The Aboriginal people in Australia, they wear skirts. The women have their breasts out. They're uncivilized. So they were saying that Europeans were the height of civilization and that they were evolving towards a more civilized place. And then they were saying that women were more evolved to child bear. They were saying that white women were more rear to childbearing.

(00:32:10):

They're not meant to use their brains. Men should be using their brains. Men should be making money. Women don't have the same strength that men have, so they need to, there are reproducers, so we need to take it easy on them. Obviously this isn't true. This is what he was saying. So then they started to say that, oh, actually, we're saving these poor souls from Australia and Native America and Papua New Guinea and all these places because they're going to burn the fiery pits of hell because Jesus. So we've got to save all of them, and we've got to civilize all of them because they are not civilized. They're evolving towards the worst we want to evolve. So it was always through this guise of saving people, helping people, christianizing people, because they didn't want to burn in the pits. It's the story that we're telling ourselves.

(00:32:52):

But Francis Galton was inti integral in this idea that civilization was Anglo, it was Western European, it was United Kingdom, it was Europe, and everything else was like, we needed to save them to make sure that they were civilizing and use eugenics towards that end to get rid of people that were not seen as civilized. So this Francis Galton was fucking scary pseudoscience. I mean, they were measuring people's heads. It was all that same Nazi stuff that guy was measuring. They were using all of this pseudoscience to differentiate, to use racialized differentiations in biology to separate people. And same thing with queerness. Queerness wasn't seen as this. I mean, it existed. People would talk. It was this, it was a known thing, but it wasn't necessarily so negatively seen until Francis Colton came along and said, oh, they're really on the fringes of society. They're going to evolve us off a cliff.

(00:33:48):

They're really bad. So it was around this time, the turn of the 18th century coming into 18th century that queerness and transness became really bad and women, and it builds to a fever pitch up until the turn of the 20th century, the early 19 hundreds. That's when you start to have people say, oh, lady men and girly men, they have even different heights and different, which is obviously all fake. It's all cherry picked data to support these really transphobic and homophobic and anti-women positions. But a lot of the history around, when did hair become such a big deal? Why should women have long hair? Why should men have short hair? Yeah. That really happens in the 18 hundreds, the long 19th century, which would be 1780 to 1920. That's what I've learned from our historians on getting curious about when did womanness, when did these gender roles become so intensified? And the relationship between gender roles and hair is really big. And that becomes much more solidified in the 18 hundreds, because prior to that, you had a lot of cultural diversity. The Egyptians were really there doing their thing. The Native Americans really had their own, every different culture had their own way of doing things. But the gospel of eugenics, so to speak, in that gospel of colonization, which is colonization, that's what really started to spread this idea of what hair means, what purity means, what femininity means, what masculinity means. That all really happens. Then,

Noor Tagouri (00:35:19):

Whoa, thank you for the history lesson.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:35:21):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:35:24):

Wow.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:35:25):

It was a lot

Noor Tagouri (00:35:26):

Process, but it's the thing too, just, but prior to that, did hair always have a cultural significance? And was hair hair ever as personal? Was hair ever personal or was it always, was there always a factor of it being something for consumption? Not like your consuming hair or whatever, but something to be talked about, something to be analyzed, something that represented something bigger than the self.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:36:00):

I mean, I think from how I understand, I, I'm fascinated by Egyptian hair and Egyptology. We got to do a little segment on getting on the Netflix version of that. But I mean, they were braiding hair. They were coloring hair. They were cutting hair. They were using hair to denote places in society. And so even back in Egyptian times, we were talking about wanting to beautify the hair, wanting to use the hair as self-expression and to express where one would be in society. And I think in Native American cultures, you see a lot of symbolism in hair, in all cultures. You see, I think it is largely how it is now, but the roles of gender and why it's such a quote, big deal from a, I'll fucking kill you sort of way. You can't exist in this way. That comes more in patriarchy, in the solidification of gender roles in the last 300 years, I feel like in.

(00:36:57):

But maybe it wasn't that the 15 hundreds and this 14 hundreds and Pryor. But I do think that there have been eras in the world in history where hair was not linked to the same ideas of masculinity and femininity and how important it was to self-express in those ways, especially when we look at Native American cultures and why hair was kept very long. Or the spiritual connection there of hair, which is really beautiful. 

Noor Tagouri (00:40:00):

Hair represents time. And that's also what I think is so fascinating about by it and the traditions where people do end up growing their hair out or locking their hair or having braiding it or having these different representations. It literally, it is carrying our stories in the DNA itself as well

and I'm curious too, the role of hair stylists and how you often joked that you sometimes would double as a therapist to the people because you're, especially on Queer Eye when you're giving people these new transformations and we can say, yeah, changing the hair or whatever, you're giving people new so that they can feel good about themselves. What does that really mean? What is it that we're really, how does hair play a role in our bigger story of who we are in this moment?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:43:18):

Well, it's, it's so hard to pinpoint that answer because it's so layered. Part of it is action driven where you or I want to take a risk. I want to try something different. I want to see, or I just want to do something different. That's scary. It's taking a risk. You have to seek someone out. You have to save your money. You have. So there's a lot of confidence building in identifying something you want, finding a person, asking for help because you got to find someone that can do the thing. So there, it's really vulnerable because you're like, you're building confidence. You're taking a chance in whether or not you end up liking the outcome. You're literally taking a risk. So you're learning what do I not, how do I like to feel? How do I not, so there's the action taking. Then if you, how the hair turns out or you don't, that brings up its whole other list of relationship building exercises that you're going to have with yourself if you really like the hair, are you just, or if you hate it, you're like, oh my God.

(00:44:21):

If you've ever seen someone who did something to their hair that they fucking hated and they can't stop talking about it. And it's just something that's like, yeah. So that brings up, so I think, is it the things that led up to it, or was it that you actually, when you looked in the hair, the mirror, you're like, oh my God, I love how this turned out. This makes me feel like when I have my hair certain ways, it makes me feel certain ways more, maybe a little more chic, maybe a little bit more natural, maybe more. And what do those feelings elicit? But that's also different for everybody. What is chic to somebody is not chic to somebody else. So it's such a highly individual thing. And hair is such a facet of self-expression. And sometimes people have just become totally numb to that.

(00:45:09):

They're like, it's just this thing I do. I don't really see it as self-expression. I don't really see it as it's just this thing I got to deal with. Or they became really frustrated by it a long time ago for whatever reason, because when they were saving up the money or they had a hairdresser that didn't get it, or they had a parent that was really critical, or a friend, maybe when they tried their highlights, they went to school and everybody made fun of them, and then they were like, I don't ever want to try it again. So we all have such, or maybe you had a really good reaction to a hair change, so you're more adventurous. But all that stuff happens when you're little. It's from your first experiences with self-expression through hair. And all of those are also linked to, those are also racialized.

(00:45:47):

They're gendered a socioeconomic thing there too. Because if you don't have money, if you don't have the resources, if you're in a geographical space that doesn't know how to do your hair, hair can be a source of joy and self, ex and self-exploration. It could also be a source of frustration and negativity and something that you don't want to play with and you don't want to look at. And usually that happens from your formative experiences with hair, which is why for some people, hair is a huge deal and for other people not that big of a deal because it really does depend on how your individual experience was. Which actually leads into this other thing that I've been thinking a lot about, which is the relationship between individuals and systems.

Noor Tagouri (00:46:30):

Yes. Okay, perfect. Yes.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:46:32):

Well, because a lot of times if someone says anti-trans bills and anti queerer and anti-drug bills are really on my heart, obviously, because it's like today is trans visibility, trans a visibility, yes, queen. But sometimes we'll think of, someone will say, oh, I don't think that gender affirming care should be available to anyone until they're fully adults, because when you're younger, you don't have this, you're whatever. Whatever their reasons will be. It's like your frontal cortex or kids can't do this and that. So why would you let, but that's taking a whole system, which is healthcare, gender, and you're taking your individual idea of this entire system in which you actually don't know anything because gender affirming care can be your kid wearing the clothes they went. It can be a therapist. It's not always medical. It's not always surgical. It's not always pharmaceutical. It can literally be your kid wearing the clothes they want.

(00:47:33):

It can literally be letting your kid play on the team. It's a whole host of things. It can be using preferred pronouns. It's not always medical, it's not always surgical. But what the right's done is they've convinced everyone that three year olds are going in and getting hysterectomies and fucking boob jobs with their parents not knowing. Yeah, that's what on Fox News. And people are like, oh my God, these kids are making irreversible. So that's how we conflate an individual with a system. And that happens, happens in Black Lives Matter, it happens with police brutality. It happens in anti-trans bills. It happens in abortion. Why is someone so pro-life? A lot of times when especially women turn out to be super pro-life is they take their individual experience, which is, I regretted it forever. If they had a bad experience with, I felt convicted by Jesus, whatever, they were like, I will never let another person make the mistake.

(00:48:22):

So they're taking their individual experience and they're trying to infuse their individual experience into an entire system, which is what you have these Christian politicians that are like, well, I don't want you to burn in the pit, whatever it is. But it, it's always kind of motivated by their individual experience and trying to impart that on a system. And what we were saying before is that it's always been about choice. Yes. And I think that we shouldn't have, should you have the choice to sexually abuse someone or murder someone? No, we're not saying that, but we're saying that we're, as long as you're not imposing on people or hurting, but then I think their kind of argument would be, well, you're hurting kids because you're letting them make irreversible d No, they're not making irreversible decisions. Hormone blockers are in fact, reversible. Hormone blockers are in fact prescribed to cisgender kids and intersex kids every day of the week, all day long.

(00:49:10):

It's already happening. If a little girl who's six experiences precocious puberty and starts to develop breasts early, has an early period, her doctor very often will give her hormone blockers so that she does not start her pub or start puberty and continue her periods until she's 12, 13 when other girls it, that happens all the time. It also happens a lot in athletics. It happens a lot in gymnastics and figure skating, especially in other countries. But it also happens here where little girls will be given puberty blockers, so they don't develop hips and breasts as much when they're in their athletic career. It will happen to little boys if a little boy goes through precocious puberty and he starts, his voice starts to lower. If he starts to get pubes, and as like genitalia grows, they will often prescribe that little boy hormone blockers until the rest of his, the boys in his grade and his cohort start to go through those changes as well, because they might not want him to stick out.

(00:49:58):

He might feel embarrassed or bullied because people are like, oh, you're whatever, developing early. That happens all the time, and they're completely reversible. What does tend to be a bigger issue is if someone is given hormone blockers and then hormone or puberty blockers, then hormones of their desired gender expression too early, that can sometimes have implications, but it's also really not happening. Usually what happens is they'll give a kid puberty blockers. If that kid is still saying when they're, they're 13, 14, 15, 16, I am a woman, I do not want, or I'm a man. Whatever their gender expression is, at that point, they will subside the hormone blockers and then give them or puberty blockers, and then they will give them hormones for their gender expression. But that's not happening when kids are six and seven. They just give them puberty blockers. And same thing with gender reassignment surgeries.

(00:50:50):

They are not happening on children. My cousin is a surgeon at a hospital that does, did gender affirming care. It's been outlawed in that state now, but the youngest top surgery they ever did on someone was 16. And this man had been living life as a boy and a man since they were three. And the hormone blockers were even through hormone blockers, their breasts developed and they had extreme gender dysphoria. And that top surgery 100% saved their life. That kid's like 24 now. And I think 1.7% of people treat detransition. So that means like 98% of people. But 95% of the stories that you hear are about, yeah, it's not reflective of the reality of trans people, but those, that negativity bias goes so much farther than, oh, a lot of trans people are getting healthcare and it's working out really well, and they're not really hurting anybody. Threats and mishaps go way farther. It's like, if I fuck up your fringe, that goes on Yelp way more than if I do a million great fringe trims. Yeah. That's why negative stories tend to go farther. But the systems and individual thing, especially with anti-trans laws and just systems, I think a lot of times we conflate individual, individual experiences on systems, and that creates so much wreckage and so much carnage taking away that choice for people

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Noor Tagouri (00:52:28):

That you just shared language to. Something that I've also just been thinking about a lot too, which is that when it come, the reason or the approach that I take with fighting for choice in every regard is that just in this moment in my life to lead with love, lead in service, and to never impose on others. And if we can just give it's, imagine the world that we would live in if we gave people this space to truly just be themselves. I want to get to know the truest version of you. And so how can I assist or how can I be of service in creating that space for that expression to exist? And I, that's also why even if I feel nervous having these conversations or asking these questions or sharing stories or going on this own exploration with my own self, I also feel so strongly that I need to start it with gratitude because I feel lucky that we get to have this conversation that we get to say these things out loud because not everywhere in the world can you do this,

Jonathan Van Ness (00:53:42):

Which is pretty cool,

Noor Tagouri (00:53:44):

Which I feel really grateful for. I would love to know what is a question that you've been asking yourself these days?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:53:59):

Oh my God, so many. Depends. The minute,

(00:54:06):

It's a lot around, I live in Texas, so much stuff happening in Texas. I kind of personally think that the future of queer rights is in the South because it's actually really interesting. But the majority of queer people live in the South in America. And there's so much, there's so much talk around, oh, well, why don't you just move? That's literally millions of people. Like the amount of queer people in Texas, in Georgia and Florida and Arizona and New Mexico and Tennessee, new Orleans or Louisiana. It's literally millions of people. And I think California, New York, not that the threat to queer liberation is over here, but the state legislatures are not systematically trying to erase the existence of trans people in the way that they are in the south. So I think the future of queer liberation and the future of the queer rights movement is in these spaces.

(00:55:02):

It's in the spaces that, because if you look at where so much of the progress happened, it was in Stonewall, it was in California. It was wasn't these urban centers, but at the time the state legislatures and the federal government were coming for queer people, which is why so much of the progress happened there because that's where the friction happened. So now the friction is much more. In Florida, we have, don't say gay, don't say trans bills. All of those same bills are being debated in Texas right now. And it's not just the South, I mean, we have Iowa, Kentucky is in the South, but I mean a lot of these bills are happening not just in the South, but there's just so many millions of people whose rights are being infringed upon and taken away and suppressed in favor of a Christian Eurocentric, Francis Gaan approach to gender. And that's really being enforced now on everyone.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:49):

Is that part of why you decided to actually plant roots in Texas?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:55:53):

That was more of just, I realized that I was going to probably tend towards a nervous breakdown if I stayed in New York City or la just, I went to Austin for Queer Eye, and then it's so green and it's so calm. And when I moved to New York, I was like, I never want to drive again. I've been in LA for nine years, and I was like, I love public transport and I love just walking everywhere. But then at 10 in the morning when you've taken 75 selfies at 10 in the morning, you're just like, and you're compulsively late. I, I just could not get anywhere. I couldn't get anything done. And 10 minutes early today I did really good, thank God. But in Austin it's just, it's just more relaxed. People don't really expect to see me there. I can kind of exist in a way that's, I still see people and I still interact with people, but it's like, it's kind of nice being in your car cause you're not, you just don't get stopped 50,000 times.

(00:56:43):

And it's just, that's the thing. Texas is actually a really diverse, interesting, cool place. So many of the policies and the issues that you see coming out of Texas aren't really reflective of Texas and the diversity of Texas. But when you have voter suppression and then also you have just a lot of lack of motivation from democratic voters, which is a really other multi-pronged layered issue that is a whole other podcast. But our voter turnout is horrific in Texas and in Florida. But there's a, but that also is not only because of turnout, it's also because of voter suppression, which is linked to racism, which is linked to history. So it's, it's not just to say that there's a lack of enthusiasm and then it's all our fault because it's not, there's, there's layers. Why our turn out is bad. But I do want to be a part of the solution.

(00:57:30):

And that was part of why I was like, Ooh, I can do good work here. I can be part of a change here. I can be a little bit, and also I can be my nervous system in some nature. Ways can be more relaxed. I can have chickens and five cats and three dogs in Austin that I could not do in do in New York or la. So in some ways it's better for my nervous system. In other ways it's more challenging because we're actively being legislated against. And I see all these young people who are looking to me to help me be a part of this solution. So it's duality, it's, but I do really like Austin. It wasn't on my Bingo card, but it ended up being on my bingo card.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:09):

I love that journey for you.

Jonathan Van Ness (00:58:10):

Yeah. It's weird. It's weird.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:11):

So what is the question that you're asking yourself?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:58:15):

Huh? Oh yeah. What is it? Oh, it's like how can I be a part of the change in Texas? How can I, so specific, I love it. How can I be a part of the change in Texas? And then how can that radiate into other parts of the country? Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:29):

Can you tell me about your own relationship with your hair evolution and where you are now and how you're doing now on your insides?

Jonathan Van Ness (00:58:37):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:37):

How your insides matched your outsides all these years

Jonathan Van Ness (00:58:45):

Yeah. I mean I feel, I don't know. It really is. Can you ask it again?

Noor Tagouri (00:58:57):

Yeah. Just tell me about your own hair evolution from when you were a child, when you had that narrative, when those narratives get embedded into our psyche to what your relationship is within

Jonathan Van Ness (00:59:10):

Yes. Really good question. So a lot of my or hair journey comes from education. Yes, I have really curly hair. I never knew how to style it Growing up. Growing up, if look at any pictures of me, it's just so much gel right in this part of my hair. And then nowhere else, I always wanted long hair, but never, that was another gender thing. In college, I was a cheerleader. Boys couldn't have long hair on the cheer squad. There was always a reason why I had to cut my hair off. I hated it. And so the second that I could grow my hair long, I did, which was in my early twenties. And so that always was something that I wanted. And it does, it just was part of it also came from the fact that I knew that everyone in my family loses their hair.

(00:59:49):

And I was like, I want to have long hair to experience it and try it and have long hair for fun. And then I realized that I really loved it. And in my twenties I had hair down to my elbows, such long hair. And then I've been having a little bit more fun chopping it up, making a little shorter. Just I've been into a chin to collarbone moment for the last few years, not wanting it so long. But for me, I feel like when my hair wasn't fun, cause I didn't know how to do it, then I learned how to style hair. Then I was like, oh my God, this is so fun. So I feel like really, when people don't think that their hair is fun, or when I didn't think my hair was fun, it's because I had a lack of education, a lack of, I didn't know how to work it.

(01:00:29):

So I feel like knowing how to play with your hair and knowing how to style it. And then also having the time to do so. I learned how to style other people's hair starting in 2005. And I don't think I really got good at doing my own hair until 2010 or 11. Really. It took me six years to figure out. And that was literally being in the salon all the time and styling other people's hair. But it's harder if I could've cut my head off and done my hair on in the chair. Yeah. Then yeah. But it's harder. Figure out how to do the back and how to takes a while and you're always evolving, getting better. And I've gotten better and better and better.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:04):

I watched every single video on JVN hair on the YouTube page

Jonathan Van Ness (01:01:07):

That's my whole years of, that's my whole career of education. I know. Trying to figure out how to get on there. And I also know it's something like sidebar that I'm really frustrated with. Yeah. Tell me just Jared, our YouTube director, who I love so much, but he's always, what's a quick sound bite? What if someone just doesn't have a lot of time? It's you think this shit happens because you had five seconds. No one that gets good at their hair got a one five second sound bite and then fucking figured it out. And I also think we need to stop selling ourselves short on what our attention span is. If you look at my podcast, I think we shouldn't diagnose people from afar, but I think it's pretty safe to say, I have a bitch in case of adhd, if my ass can stay and learn and go away from a subject and then come back to a subject and the stories that we tell ourselves become more ingrained in your brain, the more that you say this.

(01:02:02):

So this idea that the average American has a short attention span that I really think came from lazy advertising execs that were like, fuck, I don't want to have to make something that's engaging for 45 seconds. Let's just say that they can't do it. That's not true. You think that people learn to be doctors and people learn to be experts because they have 15 second attention. No, your hair is art, it's science. It's fucking hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it. But you are able to learn. You gain new skills just like you are in anything able to do. I

Noor Tagouri (01:02:32):

I feel like you're telling me this into my soul

Jonathan Van Ness (01:02:34):

But you know, it's just so true. We are able to learn, we to change. You can in fact pay attention for more than 15 seconds. And I think that we need to start challenging ourselves to st If easy fixes existed,

Noor Tagouri (01:02:46):

Yeah.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:02:48):

Why the fuck are we here right now? Yeah, this shit just keeps getting harder. So you do got to sit down and slow down long enough. Because if you want something, you got to fucking take your goddamn time to learn about it. I really want to learn how to make jewelry right now. And then when I go how to start, I'm like, I'm going to have a nervous breakdown. Yeah. Because it's fucking hard. Of course. Can you tell me how to make great, listen to how stupid this sounds. Tell me in 15 seconds how to make really great jewelry. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So people say, what's one quick tip for G? I'm like, fuck off with these stupid questions. Ask more of yourself. Let's stop selling ourselves short. Let's ask more of ourselves as far as what our capabilities are. Cause I actually do think that we have an ability to understand and comprehend so much more than what we've been sold.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:37):

I felt that in this entire conversation. I felt you speaking directly to me as someone who's just been trying to figure out how to, I haven't done my hair in 15 years. I haven't really done anything with which means it's incredibly healthy

Jonathan Van Ness (01:03:52):

So healthy.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:53):

And also the other day when I was trying, I was cry and I was like, wait,

Jonathan Van Ness (01:03:58):

Which is so normal

Noor Tagouri (01:04:00):

Bad hair day? This is what that means.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:04:02):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:02):

Oh, okay. Cool. Goes back to JVN and hair videos,

and this is kind of why I'm bringing it back to this full circle moment of, but

Jonathan Van Ness (01:06:07):

That's the system. Exactly. That's why I brought that up thing that

Noor Tagouri (01:06:10):

Was so personal. That's supposed to be so personal, become so publicized and so politicized. And why is it so hard? And this is really hard for me too, because for a lot of years I did talk about it. I did talk about the hijab and I did talk about representation in it, and I still believe in talking about representation. And also I want to give myself the space to be able to figure out who I am out.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:06:37):

So you're going to have to remove yourself from that idea of the system.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:41):

Yeah. This, it's

Jonathan Van Ness (01:06:43):

So hard because Noor, you as an individual, you get to have that exploration. And then I think as a public figure, we get, and I've been struggling with this a lot too, you're always going to be something to somebody when you're in the public, either too much or not enough or not doing it, or you should be doing this, you should be doing something else with your platform. I really like what you're doing in your platform. Someone's always going to come somewhere with it. And do you feel that a lot? Oh, of course. And that's the system. It's like how do your actions impact a system? So do you want to be worried about that or because binary, again, it's not a black and white thing, but maybe recently you've been, it's been more 50 50, maybe there's your 50%. What do people think about me? How's this going to impact the system? And the other 50% is maybe what does this mean to me individually? So maybe right now in this season in your life, it's more of, you know what I think I want to be 90% Noor right now and 10% of that. Yeah. Because we always need to be aware of both. I'm not going to go on my, and

Noor Tagouri (01:07:42):

It's all true. That's the thing is, and this is what's so hard about it too, is it's all the truth and it's all from this place of deeply truly caring about all of this. And I think that that's the thing that, the part of the system that we have to just sometimes put to the side because of social media and because of the internet, because of media in general and the way people are perceived and reduced to these two-dimensional figures and not full human beings who are going on this evolution. It's funny because I posted a photo in my beanie and my hair was out and I got so much, it was not great, but I hate those. But there are a lot of people who don't cover their hair and who are messaging me. And they're like, I'm saying this in the nice version of it. But basically it was like, I believe in choice and everything, but if you have built your career off of this, then basically you don't get a choice. And I was just like, but that completely defeats the purpose because all I've been saying all these years is that I, I've literally in Paris on a French television show, where was, they had never had

Jonathan Van Ness (01:08:58):

A girl. They standby though. Cause I already know what you're going to say. But this is a really important, this is really, you get to be who you are. You get to be who you are. You get to be who you are. You've gone into rural spaces in this country that were so fucking Islamophobic. And literally you are one of the bravest people I know. You are one of the bravest people that I know. And you have to give yourself, give yourself some grace because you are a literal Muslim woman in the public eye who's maybe one of what five hijabi wearing women in the country who's a super public facing figure. You can't really name five other of you that are where you are in your career. So the amount of pressure of your individual that's getting transposed on this system right now is so intense.

(01:09:49):

And so backing off a little bit even on yourself, on being on this exploration and being on this journey, you need to be on that exploration, that journey. Not whatever I al, I almost like what Aoke told me once, and I have had my dms off ever since I turned the fuck off of my dms. You don't get access to me like that because it's too much. The feedback. And people who don't know your heart, people that don't know your whole story, there will be people in your Instagram that may see that picture that you posted and they don't know that you went to fucking Iowa and Texas and were speaking in schools. They don't know that you were in France fighting for women to be, I mean the Islamophobia in France, I mean they passed a fucking law that says that women cannot wear niqab, cannot wear hijab, cannot self-express.

(01:10:32):

Like you haven't. You have not built your career off the hijab. You've built your career off of advocacy and being who you are and being of service. So even having someone take away your narrative is so being able to recognize what that is and then taking a little bit off of the fastball and then creating some boundaries. You need some boundaries. Turn the dms off. They can't have access, especially when you're in this vulnerable journey of deciding how you want, what you want to do. But it is kind of reminding me of, I've been having this talk with myself too. I am an example of a non-binary trans person in the public eye when there is oppression happening against a community and you are one of those communities and you're also thriving and you'll be under more scrutiny because of misogyny and because we're both femme, there could be a Muslim man or a gay man that could say all the things that we say and have all the success that we have, and they're not going to have any of the scrutiny.

(01:11:35):

I know they're allowed to do it. They're allowed to say it and they don't have to explain. And that's actually why I cut you off because I was like, oh, you're explaining yourself and you don't have to explain yourself. You do not have to explain yourself and the voice in you that says, oh, I need to explain why I'm on this personal journey and why maybe want to don't. That's literally the patriarchy that is you reacting to. Yeah. And that's all patriarchy that people learn when they were little. So giving them the compassion for when they're judging you and stuff, not your business. And it's a lot easier said than done what people, but I used to be addicted when we were figure skating and gymnastics all the time, I was going through such this phase of, I used to name search myself on Twitter.

(01:12:14):

Yeah. I deleted Twi like, oh my God, I can't name search myself on Twitter. I can't read, I can't be in these comments like that. I will cuss people out in my comments at least once a week. I don't know how Luke does that whole benevolent, this isn't a locus can read someone with so much love and kindness. Have you ever read a Luke comments when someone will say something horribly transphobic and then a local will be like, this is not about me. This is your own pain and I want to be a loving cheerleader for you. So mom does that for me. Whereas I will be like,I want you to rip out your innard. I am not benevolent to trolls like that.

(01:12:49):

It really gets into my egoic pain place, which is not good. I got to not read these comments, honey. So you just got to keep on your path not to give you such hardcore advice, but literally this is because it is a thing. I've just seen a level of anxiety and pain in your eyes that I've never seen, which tells me that you're a nervous system is taxed. It tells me that you're window of tolerance. Do you know a window of tolerance is normally, we live in our, if this is your bottom and this is your top, normally you live in here, but because of the persecution of women is Islamophobia, what's going on in Iran, the fact that you're a public facing figure, you're probably not living in this part of your window of tolerance. You're probably living right here, right next to the top. So when something happens, you can spike above your window of tolerance. And so it just feels like a lot more, and that's the pressure that I'm alluding to of if you could, it's hard to divorce yourself from everything that's going on in the world, but also giving yourself enough space to be your own human and express your own humanity and your own journey. Because maybe it's, you want to not wear and then you want to put it, I don't know. I can't tell you what you want to be.

Noor Tagouri (01:13:55):

It's also why I keep coming back to this thought of maybe the radical thing to do also when you're talking about see or explaining yourself. Again, I try to be conscious of that. And even then I didn't catch it. And what I keep coming back to, maybe the radical thing to do is to not feel like I have to explain this or to talk about it until I'm ready. And I've processed it and I've gone through it. Because when I did first start covering my hair when I was 15, it was very shortly after that, I kind of just got thrown into more of this public space and that a lot of that carried me because I was surrounded by so much positivity and support and stuff. And so it helped me cultivate this beautiful relationship that I have with the hijab. And now also I'm just like, oh, maybe this is the opportunity where I can actually go on this journey and show myself what it looks like for this to be something personal.

(01:15:01):

This we talk about so much how the choice to cover, not to cover is so personal, but what does that look like in practice? And so maybe this is the radical thing to do, is to actually not feel like I have to explain every step of the way and I can have these intimate conversations with a close friend of mine. And this can be the extent of what I feel like I want to share until I feel ready to do so further when it is time. But I know that the last several months have been extremely challenging on just my spirit and my insides with all of this. But I also, sometimes in the moments of this, I know that I will look back at this fondly and I know I'll be grateful for this because this has is all made me feel stronger. And I have to, even as we're having these conversations and as things are being said between us, I keep thinking there's a buzzing almost in my head of like, oh my gosh, is somebody going to cut this?

(01:16:02):

Take this out of context, do whatever, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff and say this. And I'm just like, no, you know what? The entire story is right here. If you choose to listen to the whole thing, if you choose to give yourself the full context of the conversation and after you listen to the conversation, if you realize that even in this, it's just a tiny little snippet of a bigger, larger journey. And the reason we're sharing this so that you can go and so that a listener can go and scrutinize and pick it apart so that maybe it made you uncomfortable, maybe it inspired some questions in you. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. But it's because I really do believe that telling the truth on yourself is a form of service. And if we can continue to be open and we can continue to show people what it looks like to ask these questions out loud and to give ourselves and each other grace to show up as exactly who you are, then maybe people will be able to honor themselves in that way.

(01:17:02):

Because those same people who are saying whatever they're saying to us, my mom taught me this a long time ago about reframing that, and that's why I was like, she's in my comments, quote, killing people with kindness. But it's like, it's people When somebody, any judgment, any judgment you make on another person is a judgment on yourself. And it really is a reflection of how you feel about yourself. And so I think, yeah, I, I am so in the thick of it all and I'm so grateful to have had this conversation with you and I'm grateful for you cutting me off the way that you did because I needed that.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:17:40):

I didn't mean to No, but I love you.

Noor Tagouri (01:17:42):

No, I love you and I really do. I appreciate it.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:17:46):

You know what my therapist says, Noor, tell me. She says that you don't like, I mean, I'm sure you heard this, but you don't grow when you're comfortable. You really grow in your relationships with people and yourself when you have a disruption in your relationship. So you're going through a growth moment and you're actually growing in your relationship with yourself, which is gorgeous and fun and exciting. And it is like, it's how we started the podcast. You're watch Adventure Adventures of Noor in your spirit, and I love that for you.

Noor Tagouri (01:18:11):

I was like, do I keep that story in this episode? Is that, are we coming back to that raw story

Jonathan Van Ness (01:18:17):

It's cute and I love it. And I love you and thanks for having me.

Noor Tagouri (01:18:19):

Thank you so much. We end our conversations with, you can fill in the blank with one, two, or three statements, but if you really knew me, you would know

Jonathan Van Ness (01:18:31):

That figure skating and gymnastics are the best sports.

Noor Tagouri (01:18:37):

We know that.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:18:38):

Yeah. That's the first. Yeah, that.

Noor Tagouri (01:18:41):

Tell me another one.

Jonathan Van Ness (01:18:42):

Cause I knew that. Oh, oh, okay. You really knew me. I really knew me. You

Noor Tagouri (01:18:47):

Would know

Jonathan Van Ness (01:18:52):

That binaries are bad. The binaries are not, or the, which is a binary to itself, that binaries are to be scrutinized. If you really knew me, the binaries would be scrutinized. And if you really knew me, you would know that off year elections are off year. Election cycles are often the most important years for us to make inroads with people, which is actually the hardest time because there's so much icky legislation right now. So this is actually the time to pedal your bike towards a solution.

Noor Tagouri (01:19:28):

Those weren't really about you, but they are about what you stand for and your message. And

Jonathan Van Ness (01:19:33):

You knew I love anything.

Noor Tagouri (01:19:34):

You really knew me. If you really knew Jonathan, you would also know that Jonathan is in his gardening era

Jonathan Van Ness (01:19:41):

Yeah. In my gardening era. And I don't know, I feel like I've, like when you've written a book about your survival of sex abuse work, like being a sex worker, being HIV positive, it's like hard to do a surprising, I've been such an open book.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:04):

I want to know what your favorite part of gardening has been, because I saw

Jonathan Van Ness (01:20:08):

Pumpkins. You mentioned I love pumpkins. It's my favorite.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:12):

You've been growing

Jonathan Van Ness (01:20:12):

Pumpkins. Yeah. I love, really not this season yet, obviously, but the last three years, and I really love pumpkins.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:19):

Jonathan Van Ness, y'all, a gardener, a wrtier

Jonathan Van Ness (01:20:22):

Pumpkin mother.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:25):

Pumpkin mother, cat, mother,

Jonathan Van Ness (01:20:26):

Cat, mom, mother. Now it's true.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:27):

And a hair stylist

Jonathan Van Ness (01:20:29):

Sometimes. And a hot slut. I love you. I love you too. I'm so proud of you.

OUTRO: 

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION.

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

Theme music by Portugal The Man, the song is called Thunderdome, Welcome to America, featuring Black Thought…check it out!

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER JONATHAN VAN NESS.. MAKE SURE YOU CHECK OUT THEIR PODCAST GETTING CURIOUS, AND CATCH THEM ON NETFLIX’S QUEER EYE.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE. 

(Transcript) A. Helwa on How to Embark on Your Spiritual Journey, and “Secrets of Divine Love.”

3….2…1…

Welcome Back To Podcast Noor! Our Next Storyteller Is Someone Who I’ve Never Seen, I’ve Never Met In Person, And I Don’t Know Her Actual Name. And Yet, This Person Has Been Transformative In My Own Spiritual Journey. She Goes By A Pseudonym. A. Helwa. Or Helwa For Short, Which Means “Sweet” In Arabic.

Helwa Is A Writer, Poet, She Has Her Masters In Divinity, And She Is The Author Of The Brilliant Book Secrets Of Divine Love, A Journey Into The Heart Of Islam. This Book Was Gifted To Me By My Aunt Years Ago, And I’ve Gifted It Many Times Before Reading The Whole Thing Myself. That Is Because In Just The First Few Pages Of This Book, The Reader Is Enveloped In Love And Faced With This Choice To Embark On Their Spiritual Journey.  It Was The First Time That I Had Ever Heard Somebody Experience Or Go On Their Journey In Islam In Such A Transcendent, Loving, And Open And Curious Way. And So That Really Spoke To Me.

When I Finally Got Around To Reading This Book Myself, I Knew I Couldn’t Do It Alone. So. I Announced Our First “At Your Service Book Club.” Secrets Of Divine Love, Our First Read. Over 1100 People Signed Up. My Dms Were On Fire, So Many People Who Had Also Had The Book But Hadn’t Felt Ready To Read It…or People Who’ve Read It Many, Many Times, Or People Like Me Who Found Themselves Gifting It Over And Over Again. Our Book Club Spanned 4 Sundays In The Month Of Ramadan And It Was The Best Gift Of Community I’ve Ever Felt During The Holy Month. Secrets Of Divine Love And Helwa Are Not Just For The Person Who’s On Their Muslim Journey. It’s For Anyone Seeking A Loving Connection To God, Creator, Or Source.

Our Book Club Was Filled With People From All Backgrounds And Faiths Who Shared Questions And Vulnerable Stories. Who Found Community With One Another And Who Continued To Do So! Helwa Herself Joined Our Book Club And We Recorded This Podcast Conversation During The Month Of Ramadan Just Before Our Last Book Club, While Helwa Was En Route To Palestine.

While This Was A Virtual Interview, I Also Want To Share With You That I Felt Compelled To Keep My Eyes Closed The Entire Conversation. It Really Felt Like I Was Traveling With Helwa In Her Adventurous Stories Of How She Connects To Her Own Spirit. Hint Hint, There’s A Story Of Her Getting Lost In A Desert… Which Seems To Be A Common Theme Among Peoples Spiritual Stories And Journeys.

Anyway, This Is A Storytelling Session I Will Absolutely Be Revisiting. And I Highly Encourage You To Set An Intention Before Diving In…welcome To: How To Embark On A Spiritual Journey Rooted In Love, With A. Helwa. 

Noor Tagouri (00:00:20):

So great to virtually meet you. I'm so honored to have you on Helwa. Can I ask if that's your real name?

A. Helwa (00:00:35):

That's a good question. People ask me that all the time. It is not,

Noor Tagouri (00:00:39):

We love a pseudonym. Tell me the story behind your decision to write under a pseudonym.

A. Helwa (00:00:47):

Yeah, that's a great question. So basically when I felt this guidance to write, I had no idea how to even go about doing that. I had written poetry my whole life, but I had never written long form. In fact, my favorite subject has always been math. It's more objective. I think my lowest grades were in English.

Noor Tagouri (00:01:12):

That's hilarious.

A. Helwa (00:01:15):

Yeah, writing is just very subjective, so it's never, it's always been something that it's definitely, I don't think of it as my strong suit, which for me, this book is always a testament that there is divine help in the things that we do inshaAllah, and I see so much of that help just because I know my lack of ability really. Well

Noor Tagouri (00:01:38):

That's

A. Helwa (00:01:39):

A stranger may not know that, but I know that one plus one equals two, not like 200. So

Noor Tagouri (00:01:48):

I love that because I think that that's also a testament to how divine the writing process can actually be when you completely, completely empty yourself out and surrender to just being a vessel of whatever message is meant to come through. Because sometimes I think that even when I read writing that I wrote as a child, I'm like, that was not me. Where did this come from? Wow. So it's such a profound experience. So we always kick off these conversations, not by talking about pseudonyms, but actually asking, how is your heart today?

A. Helwa (00:02:27):

I love that. My teacher used to ask your heart, what does she say? English wasn't his first language, but I almost feel like I like that grammatically a lot.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:39):

I love it grammatically

A. Helwa (00:02:40):

Because it emphasizes the heart. It's like your heart, what does she say? And today I feel like there's this line that keeps repeating in my mind. It's an old poem that basically says when the sun rises, there's no need for the lamp. And I've just really been sitting without this Ramadan from a place of, sometimes this month could be a list of things we want to do that I want to do, but really just being present with when the light of God's presence rises, the lamps, not that the actions aren't important, not that the practices aren't important, but there are lamps to guide us in the darkness. But when that presence arrives and it never left, it's an arrival that never left. It's kind of like the Quran, they say, I was listening to someone who said the Quran was sent from a far distance, but God's not in time and space.

(00:03:51):

So what does that distance mean? Except the distance of awareness, our awareness, our lack of awareness. So I've just been sitting with that. My heart's just been sitting with the lamps in my life and how hard I sometimes hold to a flashlight when it's day daylight outside and wow. So I've just been really present with that. Another way of saying that is use a boat to get across the river, but you wouldn't put that boat on your back and carry it across the desert. God gives us moments and gifts. How do you use it in the moment, be present and also realize how do we let go of what was maybe one way of being was working. And now I'm being guided to be a different being. And I want to clarify that doesn't mean I'm leaving my practices behind, but it's leaving the parts of myself behind that are no longer serving me. And I think in the heart there is so much peace in that, but in the mind there's a lot of war it, it's a struggle because there's an attachment. So just being gentle with myself, I think today.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:06):

That's beautiful.

(00:05:12):

It's interesting to think about darkness and lightness in that way. I, it's so sorry. I'm having a memory of this kind of vision I had this morning actually. So I've had a very, I'm going through a very intense part of my own spiritual journey right now. And I was in yoga this morning and during Shavasana where you're just resting and corpse pose and you're feeling the weight of yourself on the ground, I closed my eyes and I went to this place in my mind that I used to, and I don't say used to years ago, but just maybe even just a few months ago when I felt a little bit more grounded or whatever, but this place in my mind where it's very, very dark, but there's a light that shines on me and I'm sitting on water. It's a very shallow water, but it's all dark and there's just a moment of light and I always see it's really deep, deep, deep in the earth and everything above is just noise.

(00:06:18):

And today, for the first time ever, I've gone to this place in my mind repeated for years as a place of just solitude and peace. And today, for the first time I started seeing flickers of light in this space in my mind or my imagination. And the flickers of light began to shine in the darkness. But I started seeing people in deep meditation in the darkness as well. And I realized, oh, this place that I thought I came to in solitude and in alone why, while I am in my body and I'm fully alone in this very moment, I am surrounded by other people who are reaching that same place deep in the ground, deep in their spirit where they are trying to find that solace away from the noise. And so it is, it's an interesting reflection that you have on darkness and light because they're both tools for ourselves to maybe even carve out who we are in this moment right now. And I'd love to ask you, when you felt one of your, it doesn't have to be the first one, but one of your first pivotal moment of darkness where you realized actually the darkness is in service of the journey that you are about to embark on.

A. Helwa (00:07:50):

Well, first of all, I just wanted to say that the story you shared is so, it's so deep and so grounded and I feel so true. It's almost like tuning in to a frequency on the radio and there is, there's something playing, but you only hear it when you tune to it and then that's the listening. But then what's the question is how do you listen when there's no separation? How do I listen to you when there's no space for your words to travel from your mouth to my ears, and then you realize that you are the song playing, that there is a music of your soul and that we're in symphony with others and that we're not separate. One way a teacher of mine said, she said, you can't be in the love and right at the same time because right has wrong in its duality. Love is about unity.

(00:09:00):

So that space, that plane, there's a oneness in it. And that's really the beauty of light is that when it hits density, it unveils, its colors hidden and its unity. And that's what we see in the spectrum. But red doesn't belong to red and blue doesn't belong to blue. They all belong to the light. And so when you're really present, you get to see in the multiplicity unity. And that's why in the unity, not it's like solitude, but there's also presences. It's this paradox the mind can't really grasp. So I think your story, that experience, it's so beautiful and such a testament to an everyday moment. And also it's significant that it's in corpse pose because yeah, we do leva die before you die. Analogy, the Islamic tradition, it's like, yeah, when you have detached in a moment you get to experience the breadth of your being. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:10:15):

It's also funny because I just read the passage that you like the, I'm reading the chapter on death in Secrets of Divine Love. And it feels so true because there's a line that you write about how the prophet peace be upon him talked about the importance of visiting cemeteries. And it's funny because my husband and I, we go to our local cemetery every single morning. Every single morning we go, we sit, we walk, we talk, and no phones, no electronics are allowed. This is a thing that people who know us know this about us. And it's very interesting because today was the first time my yoga class used to be at a different studio. Today was the first time it was at the studio I was at and the studio is in the cemetery. And so when I'm in corpse pose, I'm actually surround and the windows are showing the tombs and the tombstones and the gravestones. So I just made that full circle moment as you said that. So I apologize for cutting you off, but the visual transcends that because I think that that was actually probably why.

A. Helwa (00:11:29):

Wow. It's so incredible how God just speaks to us. So apparently sometimes, yeah, it's so clear. And I think there's such power in that because when I go visit my loved ones that have passed, I'll lay next to them on in next to their grave site and I'll just sit looking at the clouds, changing shapes and just realize everything is like that. I feel here and alive, but I am also reaching towards the annihilation. And there's such beauty in that when you really accept it because you're willing to receive whatever God has destined. Obviously we have an ego, I have an ego and we have enough. It's like it's a journey, but it's a really powerful practice. It makes me like, yeah, I feel it's really beautiful and I'm happy you shared that with me. Yeah, it's inspirational and something nice.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:37):

Thank you. I mean it's

A. Helwa (00:12:38):

Beautiful

Noor Tagouri (00:12:39):

Your words even when you wrote, because we end up spending more time in the ground than above it, and I was just like, oh, I literally highlighted it and then I sent it to my family group chat. I was like, this is why Adam and I spend every day in the cemetery.

(00:12:54):

It's just getting to know to know our neighbors. And I feel really lucky because the cemetery that we visited is actually an artist cemetery. And so it has been from people from the 18 hundreds until now who worked in in art and music and philosophy and writing. And so all of their headstones have poems or poetic descriptions of them and it's just so profound. My favorite one is of Dr. James T. Shotwell and his stone says a "crusader of peace." And there's like a little memorial for him that just encompasses the entire cemetery. I do a lot of writing there, but I, we've made it a habit that everywhere we go, we look for the local cemetery and go visit the people who stay there. It's really great.

A. Helwa (00:13:51):

Wow. That's amazing. That is cool. That's usually when I go to a new country where there's teachers who've been buried, I'll go and just walk the cemeteries and just pray for those who've passed kind of thing. But this is a daily practice. It's beautiful in some of the weekly ones. It's nice, like a daily reminder. I love that.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:13):

Yeah, thank you. So tell me about darkness and you.

A. Helwa (00:14:19):

Yeah. Huh. So I think darkness has its teaching for sure, and it's the place of contrast. And for me it's the places where I'm so aware of how desperately I need God, how desperately I need him and that presence. And so when I think back in my story, and I always try to make an emphasize emphasis that I was not a practicing Muslim for about 10 years of my life. And I share that because I think a lot of times people feel like if they read something inspirational, they attribute a perfectionism to a person or even assume that a state is a station, like a passing state or moments of inspiration is a station. And I consider myself like an everyday Muslim just trying to do her best. And I think because I had an experience where I was born Muslim, but took space from the tradition as I went and traveled the world really for those 10 years.

(00:15:28):

And when I came back to the tradition, it was actually from darkness, from a place of deep longing and separation. And I hadn't experienced God in that way in my life. I had always experienced God through my parents' relationship with God. Can you tell us, I was almost piggybacking on their relationship, how they solve God, how they experience God, how they worship God, and they were so beautiful in their worship, but I didn't feel it. And it was so disorienting to know one way of being and to not feel it. And I see and hear that disconnection that people experience amongst many people and there's a hopelessness in it. And I always want to say that I felt that before. And I truly believe that the way through the darkness, through the darkness is as one of my teachers says, she's like, you could fight the darkness.

(00:16:33):

You could speak with the darkness, you could be a lawyer and debate with the darkness, or you could just turn on the light. I'm like, yeah, but light. How do I do that? So then comes the questions of how, and I've learned now through my life that when how arrives, it's the ego wanting to take control. It's the ego wanting to find a way. And so one of the things I've learned through that journey is to be with God. Now, even in the place where I feel disconnected, it's like to start and begin right here. Not one day if I could only not back when I was, but right here where I'm not and I'm hurting and it's hard and I have doubts and I turn to God there, that's my moment of dawn. That's where the dawn rises because everything else is an illusion. The future is not here yet. So we put a lot of our energy into perfectionism. And actually you can't come to the perfect one pretending perfectionism, how could God heal who you're pretending to be?

(00:17:54):

You have to come with who you are, broken, bruised, struggling, needy, poor. And that's how you approach the rich, the healer, the one. How else could you approach that? There's beautiful story of sham tabi and the poets always create these mythical sort of stories. But this particular poet envisioned sham tabi, which is Rumi's teacher on the day of judgment. And everyone's like bowing before Allah and they're just like, oh, Allah, I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. Please embrace you, embrace me in your mercy. And they're just desperate for Allah's love. And the poet paints the picture of shams running across the plains of the day of judgment and raising his hands and going, God, God. And everyone's like, oh my God, here he comes. And he's like, I have something you don't have and I'm willing to sell it to you. And everyone's like, oh my God. And God, this poem goes as a divine presence says, okay, go ahead. What is it? And he's like, I have my lack in my nothingness. And you don't have, he is like, I have empty hands and all you are is full oneness. Obviously God's without forms, but he's pointing to the fact that how we interact with the divine is not through false perfection but through our brokenness. And so I think darkness really teaches us, teaches me, has taught me the places where I'm human because it's through my humanity that I experience his divinity, which is a hard lesson to learn, but it's the beginning of the journey.

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Noor Tagouri (00:19:55):

Thank you for sharing that. It's so clear. I'm thinking about the 10 years that you embarked on this journey. I want to know about the woman who was leaving her parents' house or tradition and decided, I'm going to try to figure this out for myself. What did she feel like? What did she look like? How did her parents react? How did her community react? What was the state of her heart and what was her first question?

A. Helwa (00:20:36):

It's a wonderful question. I remember longing for something but not knowing what it was. And so because I had a need but didn't know what I was seeking, it was almost like I was in a blind room just moving my hands around trying to find a wall. And so sometimes I landed on things that were sharp and sometimes I crashed into things, but it was because I was blindly seeking for something. So you land on money, that wasn't it. You land on people. That wasn't it. You land on success still not it still not it. You just keep travel the world. It's not it me interesting people. It's not it. It's not it. It's not it. And just reaching, reaching and everything I hit, it felt like I was further away than when I began almost I was taking these almost mini little idols that I was putting in my pocket. So it was slowing me down.

(00:21:59):

And it wasn't until I was at a monastery, a Buddhist monastery. I remember my parents because I was really with the monks. And it was funny because in my teenagers I struggled to wake up for fajr, but I would wake up every morning at 5:00 AM to do meditate for an hour with the monks. And it wasn't hard at all. So then I knew it was in, where was this time? It was in San Diego, this Tinot Han who's like a popular zen Buddhist teacher. He's passed now, but he has a monastery called Deer Park Monastery and it's like in the mountains. And yeah, I would, so Id waking up for many, many weeks and I'd wake up with them, but I'd never wake up for Fajr when I was a child. I hardly used to wake up for Fajr when I was like 12, 13. And here I was awake, excited to be in the present.

(00:23:07):

And I remember my parents would visit me on visitor days and they were very Muslim, but they never said anything. My mom said later she was really praying for me to find my wife, but they didn't say anything. And they had faith that I would find my path, the one that God had planned for me. And I remember after that experience and a few experiences traveling, that it was in the observation, I shared this briefly in my book, but observation of a person praying that ignited my spirit. And I always think this is so interesting because I was so hungry for something and what after all that, seeing the world, all the things that I think maybe people seek for touching it, the thing that transformed my heart wasn't a book. It wasn't, wasn't some great teacher. It was witnessing a single person, a stranger's sincerity, praying with just such beautiful light and purity.

(00:24:35):

And I realize in that moment that presence, that unseen presence can change whoever that person is. I am sure on the day of judgment, they will see that their private moment in a corner with God inspired my whole journey. And every book goes back to them in a way. And that's the ripple effect of being a sincere servant to God, which I feel that this person was, and it ignited something in me, it reminded me who I was, but I couldn't, was searching everywhere for the answer except I just didn't look inside. And Rabia, they famously came to her and Rabia come outside, it's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful spring day. And she's like, man, if you could see what it looks like inside, you would never ask me to come outside because of the heaven that exists inside of our spirits. Like now was the time where I realized you could be in a corner of an unknown mosque and be traveling to the most beautiful places without physically leaving where you are. And so did you ever speak to that woman? No, I don't know her name. She doesn't know mine. But I am here carrying a part of her breath in my words and my life. That's the beautiful thing about the plane that you entered in your practice is it's just a reminder that there's this breath that just rolls through all of us. And when me and you breathe, we could be continents apart, but I take in a few molecules of your breath and of your ancestors tens of thousands of years ago in this recycle there.

(00:27:06):

So when I breathe, I breathe in my grandmother, I take in a breath of the prophet peace be upon him, his companions. That is how close we are.

Noor Tagouri (00:27:22):

I mean that comes back to oneness. And that's like that's the thing that I've been really meditating on. This is where I find peace. And I'm so grateful for the work that you do because it's given me some language that I needed to understand this feeling and this journey itself. And I've always referred back to this notion that God is one, this notion of unity. And if we, it's funny because I was listening to a podcast episode yesterday with Krista Tippett and Reverend Barbara Taylor, Barbara Brown Taylor, believe that was her name. And she at the end of the interview quoted her Muslim friends as they say, God being closer to us than our jugular vein. And I just mentioned that because I love that a reverend who lives in Georgia meant quoted that. And so when I think about the closeness of God, and then when I think about God telling us that he's closer to us than our jugular vein, so God is also telling us that he is inside of us and then we think about the oneness of God, then the conclusion I draw, the image I draw in my head is that I am you and you are me, and we are all one and we are all of each other.

(00:28:54):

And so where things get tricky, where our humanness I think gets distracting or in the way is this notion of I'm right and you're wrong. I have the truth and you have a lie or this idea that there can only be one way. And it was profound that you had mentioned earlier that there cannot, can't be right and love because right insinuates there's a wrong which is duality and love is unity. And maybe the question I'm trying to ask is how do you feel in the state of connection to unity today? How do you feel we got to this place of such disconnection, such absolutism, such certainty that my truth is the only way and the fear that embodies all of it?

A. Helwa (00:30:07):

Well, I feel like in the Quran, Allah says that if you're arrogant, you can't witness the signs like you're veiled from witnessing the signs because if you're arrogant, you've created separation and arrogance is a quality of darkness of the devil. What's the pride? And arrogance is what prevented him from bowing when Allah asked him to bow. So that arrogance is this test that arrives in front of us. And here's the thing that's interesting about arrogance, is arrogance is the same, which I think is to me is very worth sitting with is saying I am better, which is the classic phrase from the Quran that the devil says I'm better is arrogant, but saying I'm worse as arrogant too. Because you're looking, you are a masterpiece of God and you're looking at this at God, the artist and telling him what his masterpiece is worth. You're going into God's museum and saying that price is wrong. It should be less. And that's arrogant. So saying I am worse and saying I'm better creates separation on top of the fact that the devil also says, I will find them on the path. I say this in the book on the eth, that on the left, the right in front of 'em, behind them to convince you, not that they don't believe in God, not that they don't pray, not that they're greedy, but that they're ungrateful.

(00:32:10):

So if you have arrogance and in gratitude, you are absolutely veiled from the signs and it's like you're blind. It's like the image of me in a dark room trying to find my way. You're just crashing into everyone. You can't really have regard for other people in their space, in their process because you can't even see that. The Quran says it's the hearts that are blind. It's the hearts that can't see. There's a story of a s Christianity, they call him the desert aba. And this guy goes to visit a desert aba in the mountain and he goes into his little cave and he's like, father, where? Where's your Bible? I don't see any books here. And the man grabs him and he takes into the edge of his cave and there's this wide expanse and he's like, there is my psalms. He points to a mountain range. He's just naming different chapters of the Bible because he understands that the words come off the page. If God said be, and everything was then his divine speech brought to life everything. So even witnessing God, if you can witness God's qualities manifested in forms, if you can witness his divine names bringing to life everything, then it's how could you not love that? And if you don't love the creation, how could you say you love the creator of that creation?

(00:34:12):

See, the beautiful thing about Islam is like it's cornerstone is mercy. You know what mercy is? It's so fascinating. Mercy requires me to be fallible, to experience how loving is God that every time we start our prayers we're saying God was Ar-Rahman. His mercy encompasses everything. And that encompassing it knows that I'm fallible. I can't even take it in had I not been human.

Noor Tagouri (00:34:51):

I always think about that and I've been thinking about that more as we've been reading the book. And it's very interesting. I keep saying interesting, I think because I'm more nervous to say how I really feel, but or maybe I don't have the language entirely. I think I'm just in a state of curiosity right now. But I am experiencing the fear of loved ones that comes with going on this journey. The fear of a parent being afraid that asking these questions or exploring or taking a step back from the way that I was raised or the tradition I was brought up in and the way that it was taught is condemnable or wrong or astray. And I keep going back and forth between the humanness of that reaction and then the mercy of God and how deep, deep, deep in my core, I truly, truly, truly believe that this journey is the one that we're meant to embark on, that we are not meant to be sheep who just are told when you're growing up, this is what you do, this is what you do, this is what you do.

(00:36:30):

And if you don't do it, you're going to go to hell and you must stick to that. And that's that. And it's interesting because I was on a call with Dr. Butch Ware earlier, he's historian and professor and he studied in Senegal and he did his dissertation on Quranic education. And he said to me, I literally wrote this down. He said one of the questions that he would ask the people who he was interviewing for his dissertation on Quranic education is what's the best, what is the best way to raise a Muslim child? And he said, every time people told me directly, there is no such thing as a Muslim child that is a child of a Muslim. Every single person has to come to their own faith, their own submission. You do not educate a Muslim child. Your job is to model to them what faith looks like.

(00:37:36):

And when he said that, I was a little taken aback because I was like, whoa. But I have always thought about this notion of, I think that in our tradition there's this expectation that you teach and you give your children your faith and you raise them to be a Muslim child. But I found it even more almost holy, this idea that that is a child of a Muslim and you model to them what faith looks like so that they may come to their submission and faith on their own because isn't that what true conviction looks like? Isn't that what true affirmation of faith looks like? Isn't that what true love looks like? It's terrifying, especially for people who want to hold on to control because the reality is, and this is why I have so much compassion for my parents and family members and people feel this way, it's because I think that they feel like it's their responsibility. I am responsible for your actions because that does this mean I didn't do a good job in making you fear God enough, essentially. But I literally just had this conversation with Dr. Ware like a couple of hours ago, so it's still sitting with me this notion of that is a child of a Muslim who has to come to their faith on their own. But I would love to hear how you reflect on that.

A. Helwa (00:39:07):

That's beautiful, what he shared and your reflections on that is I think it's really poignant and I think it's something that we're stepping into this era for sure.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:18):

Yeah,

A. Helwa (00:39:20):

I think my friends make fun of me, I use too many gardening references, but it just makes sense to me

Noor Tagouri (00:39:29):

We're in the mountains, I'm embracing it.

A. Helwa (00:39:34):

But when if anyone's tended a garden before, you know cannot control the way the tree grows, it's you create optimal environment, you support it, you make sure the soil is fertile and you let the tree reach its arms and seek for light. And sometimes it goes straight up. Sometimes it whens like a river. But the calling is really allowing children to be in the light, to have a taste of that. And I always think about how no one can describe what an apple tastes like except through aply references. It's not quite it. And you could write volumes breaking down the compounds of it. But when you take that bite, something about an apple that intellectual doesn't know through experience and going even back to what you mentioned, there's these different paths and people are trying to establish what's right. The thing about that is density can only be in one time, in one space. For example, a flower kind of only occupies its space, but its fragrance can intermingle with a lot of different fragrances because it's more subtle. So when we find ourselves in conflict and there's resistance, it's a really nice moment to stop and to be present with the subtlety, with the fragrance behind. In beneath.

(00:41:24):

When I ask one of my teachers, what should I bring for Palestine? She said, peace. If you want to bring something for the people here, bring peace, subtlety.

Noor Tagouri (00:41:46):

What does bringing peace look like to you though?

A. Helwa (00:41:49):

Great question. So bringing my peace. Bringing peace inside myself

(00:41:59):

Because if you are, it's like I'm looking through a kaleidoscope. If my vision is broken, everything's broken. So purify your own heart, establish presence in your own being and be a light. And I believe everybody can do that of every faith because God made every single person. That's the beauty about in my belief being Muslim. And what I love about it is that I could look at every single person and say, regardless of what you believe, you are free to believe what you believe. But what I believe is God made you and intentionally created you. And every single breath you take, he chooses for you to take. How can you say, what can you say to someone who's been so divinely chosen? How would you hold that reality?

(00:42:58):

Because we hold the Quran with such respect as we should, but then we don't hold each other with respect, but the same God made both. And so with children, how do you invite someone to an experience? I'll tell you a story of some of the work I do as in prisons, and we were sharing, one of my friends made a movie and we're doing a prison release and he's like, Hey, can you do a meditation type thing? And I'm like, okay. And it's just like a hundred men in there and Oh, what should I do? I was just sitting there thinking about it and it came very clearly. I know the Lord's Prayer from going to Christian school my whole life. I know the Shabbat from having Jewish friends and I obviously know the Fatiha so let's go. And it was so, it's so interesting. It's perfect saying this because it's the Ramadan, Passover, Easter

Noor Tagouri (00:43:56):

I know

A. Helwa (00:43:58):

Feeling, but it's just stepping into that environment and saying, when in the Quran it says, don't make distinctions between the prophets. I take that seriously.

(00:44:10):

I'm not saying that people don't have different paths. I'm not saying that Islam is the same as Christianity as I'm just saying that with those men in that moment saying those prayers, we left the prison, we closed our eyes and we were really close to the redwood forest, and we just became trees. We closed our eyes and we became trees. We grew branches, we grew roots, and we shot our roots all the way to where our loved ones were underneath those prison walls. And we used our breath to go where our bodies couldn't. And so we took in love and we exhaled it across and beyond time and space, and everyone in that room believed something different. But in that moment we were a forest. And that's just being present and saying, you yes, have made mistakes me. Yes, I have made mistakes and we could still be here together. And it was well funny too, because they all really liked my song, which is what they call the Fatiha. I really like that song. Where can I get that? I was like,

Noor Tagouri (00:45:34):

Oh my gosh, that's incredible

A. Helwa (00:45:36):

Because funny. So we make separation, and that's a function of course, of our ego. It creates duality.

Noor Tagouri (00:45:53):

Wow. I mean, thank you for sharing the work that you do. I am. That's so beautiful and I would love to hear more about that. And I would also love to hear about the journey that you're currently on. So you're having this conversation, you're in Dubai, I'm in New York, and you are on your way to Palestine, to Falasteen. What is taking you there and how are you cultivating the peace within to bring that light to the land?

A. Helwa (00:46:33):

So I feel like the peace within is really about being a mediator between the ego and spirit inside of me, between the growing voice of the spirit and the dimming voice, the ego, and really working on a practice of AstaghfirullahulAtheem turning my heart to Allah and not avoiding or pretending my NA's ego is not present, but just choosing to orient my body towards God.

(00:47:20):

And in that space, being gentle with myself and leaning into peace and using my breath to breathe in the constriction and exhale the peace, breathe in divine love and exhale divine love. Realize that with awareness every time we breathe, we change the world or reverse trees. And if you really feel the presence of the laws of a law, you feel gravity press you into the earth. And when I'm in my heart, I see that as a way the earth holds me, hugs me, calls me to it. So this entire earth is in support of mercy, gentleness, and humility.

(00:48:47):

So I walk as just one body, but there's an entire planet beneath my feet that supports the journey that gave of itself so that I could have a spark of existence to do what it couldn't. Allah chose us to be representatives of his mercy and love and to reflect his qualities upon all people in this month of Ramadan says he sent the Quran for all people. He didn't say Muslim. I said, nah. It's like all people that the divine message sent in Ramadan Ramadan, which is extreme heat, the month of extreme heat the month where if the Arab says extreme heat, it's hot because they lived in the desert. It's that place where you're desperate for relief. What is relief in hot desert? It's rain and how God refers to revelation as rain.

(00:50:09):

So how could you be like that? What is it like to be rain on dry earth? And to hold that question in your heart, not because the answer is going to set you free, but because holding the question reminds you that you're needy for God. And our cure is in our neediness, not in our completion of finding fulfillment on our own. I asked one of my teachers once, Amina, why don't I feel like I'm enough? And she said, oh, because you're not. I was like, man, that's a bad answer. And the whole group started laughing and she said, no, but that's the point. You bring your neediness to Allah and you become enough through him, not before him.

(00:51:22):

So you're on the path. So if you have doubt, if you have questions, it's like the answer sends itself out into the world to be found through a question just like that Rose sends its fragrance out to be found. I see the space you create because of the questions you ask and you hold people with so much honor because maybe you haven't always been held that way. And so the empty space expanded your container and that's how God blesses you through trials. And that's a gift that you don't get without the journey. And so going to Palestine is about praying and being present in the holy nights of Ramadan the last 10 days, and to pray for the world and to pray for those who are seeking Allah to find him, not because he's hidden, but as if NATA says he's so close that by his proximity he's available.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:26):

Right. Wow. That's a beautiful continuation of the image of the jugular vein. You often talk about your teachers, and this is more of a practical question, but I'm eager to hear it, especially from you. How do you go about not just finding teachers, but trusting teachers, engaging with teachers, surrendering with teachers, not to them but just with them and in their presence. What is a teacher?

A. Helwa (00:54:11):

There was, to answer this question, I'll share a brief story. I was traveling through a few deserts of Morocco and Turkey, and I ended up in Iran and I decided to do a high through the desert and I got lost. And when I walked into the desert, I had one question and that was, why do you need a teacher? And I was like, we already have the books. I'll just read them. I don't need a teacher. And I was in my American mode of I don't need a man to tell me how to whatever. I had this whole picture and I was walking this, his desert and up and down these, it was kind of mountainous and sandy and I look on the floor and I see a huge piece of crystal. I'm like, what? Never See. So what I do, I pick it up, put it in my backpack, and then I, oh my God, is that Jasper? I'm obsessed with geology. Oh my God. Oh my God. Is that, oh my god, that's laced ett. I'm just picking up. Literally, I don't know what happened. Was there a gem show? And someone went, dropped their stuff and I'm walking through this desert norm and I'm picking up stones. Oh my God. So pretty. This is pretty for hours.

Noor Tagouri (00:55:51):

That's a heavy backpack.

A. Helwa (00:55:53):

Heavy backpack. But what's funny about that is I was so distracted with the shiny little things. I lost my way. I got turned around too much and I had no idea, by the way, okay, let me turn around and walk back. So I'm like, okay, I only have seven, eight miles to go back. And I look and I'm like, huh, this doesn't look familiar. This doesn't look familiar. I don't remember that. Why's this? It's okay. It's just over the mountain. The little oasis go over the mountain. There's no oasis. No, there's just more mountains for the next several, several hours.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:45):

No, no, no, no, no, no.

A. Helwa (00:56:48):

I am.

Noor Tagouri (00:56:50):

You are not lost in a desert. 

*AD BREAK*

BEFORE WE GET INTO HELWA BEING LOST IN THE DESERT! I WANTED TO SHARE A LITTLE ABOUT OUR TEAM, AT YOUR SERVICE. AYS TELLS STORIES AS A FORM OF SERVICE. OUR APPROACH? STORY FIRST, MEDIUM SECOND. THAT MEANS WHEN WE DECIDE WE WANT TO SHARE A STORY, WE THINK OF THE BEST WAY TO TELL IT...THAT COULD BE A PODCAST, DOCUMENTARY, DINNER PARTY, KEYNOTE SPEECH, CLOTHING LINE, AND SO MANY OTHER MEDIUMS! YOU CAN CHECK OUT OUR WORK AT AYS.MEDIA OR @AYS ON INSTAGRAM. AND IF YOU HAVE ANY STORY IDEAS, SHOOT US A NOTE. AND MAKE SURE YOU LISTEN TO OUR WEBBY NOMINATED INVESTIGATIVE PODCAST “REP: A STORY ABOUT THE STORIES WE TELL.” WE DIG INTO MEDIA REPRESENTATION, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH STORIES, TRUTH, AND OBJECTIVITY…OKAY…BACK TO HELWA IN THE DESERT. 

A. Helwa (00:56:51):

I am so lost. I have to find a picture somewhere. I am so lost. And I go up the mountain, it takes, it's these little tumbling, rock mountain, go all the way to the top. And I'm like, of course. I mean, this doesn't make sense. You came over to this mountain ridge, over the mountain ridge. I have no idea. I spend the night and my water's out. I like half a cup left.

Noor Tagouri (00:57:14):

Oh my gosh.

A. Helwa (00:57:18):

And it's such an interesting teaching because that's why I say the power of a question because my backpack is filled with rocks. You can't eat them and they don't have water, but they're shiny. But that's about it. And how often do we lose our way because of that very thing?

Noor Tagouri (00:57:44):

You went into the desert with that question

A. Helwa (00:57:47):

Literally with that. I have my book with literally with that question, and I was convinced. I was like, come on, let's be real. You're good. What's up? Come on, let's go. Totally hardened my ego. This

Noor Tagouri (00:58:02):

Why does every big spiritual journey end up with someone lost in the desert? Please tell me. Why does it have to be like that?

A. Helwa (00:58:11):

It's harsh and it's great because it's the topography of revelation. It means more to you. Allah says there will be a day and it's like pearls will be cast upon the floor and no one will care on that day of judgment because they'll see, they'll be like, what is this? Even? This is an irritation inside of a show that created a defense mechanism, and that's what a pearl is.

Noor Tagouri (00:58:43):

It's so wild that you're saying this, by the way, because today, for the first time ever, I saw a video of how pearls were extracted for Wow. The first time ever. That's wild that you're saying. And to be honest with you, it made me really uncomfortable. I mean, I love pearls. I think they're so beautiful. And also I was just the way that the oyster was being cut into and it felt like we were stealing from them or something, and it just, but I didn't know it was an irregulation either. That's really incredible.

A. Helwa (00:59:15):

You got me on your plane. I'm in, in your plane.

Noor Tagouri (00:59:18):

I know. I guess we're really alike. I kind of feel like

A. Helwa (00:59:19):

From the same radio station.

Noor Tagouri (00:59:21):

Anyway, I love it. I come from radio, so this is perfect

A. Helwa (00:59:27):

Yeah, that's right

Noor Tagouri (00:59:28):

Right. I mean, you were lost in the desert. So yeah, I guess that would be a good lesson in figuring out why a teacher.

A. Helwa (00:59:36):

But here's a story goes, it was also the first time I was really confronted with death because people in this desert, ha, there's like animals, they found bodies. It's, I was really confronted in that moment with, I actually might not get out of this because just judging the distance I came, the lack of water, the sun starting to go down. And two things happened for me. One was, it was the first time I felt my spirit pull me. Literally felt like someone grabbing the front of your shirt and pulling you

Noor Tagouri (01:00:25):

Forward.

A. Helwa (01:00:26):

Forward. And the only thing I heard was, don't stop, keep walking. And I would go over a mountain when I tell you I wish I had a picture, hundreds of mountain ranges. I didn't know which corner of these mountains, the little oasis was like, there's no way to know. And I didn't

Noor Tagouri (01:00:50):

Tell us the end of the story though then did you? Yeah. No, no, don't. Sorry, but I'm, my heart is ping. I'm like, but you're here. You're talking. It's not a ghost.

A. Helwa (01:01:00):

Yeah, I'm alive. And this is important too, just because I was writing Secrets of Divine Love in this process too. So it was a really integral moment of

Noor Tagouri (01:01:13):

That's where this book came from.

A. Helwa (01:01:15):

Yeah, in part, it was in part, I was working on it during this period, during this traveling journey. And it was so important to the book because, well, so then I go up and I'm like, and I just sit there and I'm like, God, I'm desperate. I am so desperate. And as I'm just praying desperately, I open my eyes and I see a telephone pole in the distance, just tall telephone pole in the distance. And I'm like, well, I should go towards the telephone pole because it has connection. Right? That makes sense. Because at least they'll find my body near it. I was just like, let's just go in that direction. So

Noor Tagouri (01:02:09):

Are you feeling though, tell me about, are you tired? Are you hungry? I know you're feeling this force pulling you, but do you have anxiety? Do you have trust? What's happening inside?

A. Helwa (01:02:20):

So when I first literally, I felt my legs shake when I first realized, and it wasn't because I was tired. I was like, oh my God, no one knows I'm here. I was with a friend I met whilst traveling, and she went in a different direction to a whole nother area. And I just met her traveling backpacking. So all of it was just so wild. Everything about it was wild. And the one I missed Fajr that morning by five minutes, and when I tell you, I swear, the only thought I had was, I can't believe I missed Fajr. And then I was like, what about my parents? And to me it was such a surprise because I was like, wow, when it comes to it, this is what's important. And eventually I got up to, I did a few more up and downs, and then I saw in the distance a road, and then I eventually came, it took hours and I was crawling towards the end. No, and I land at a mosque.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:36):

No.

A. Helwa (01:03:39):

And the mosque, and

Noor Tagouri (01:03:40):

I know you're not making this up, but

A. Helwa (01:03:45):

The story actually gets a little bit hysterical too, because God knows I love a little poetry.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:51):

We love it.

A. Helwa (01:03:52):

This mosque was in the name of one of the companions of the prophet, how the prophet. And I'm like, oh my God, is this real? And I drink my water and I'm just crawling. And by the way, this guy comes and gives, he's like, are you okay? And he hands in water and I drink it and I'm like, oh my God. And I'm sitting there and I find my way back to this oasis. It kind of looks like where Aladdin lived, this kind of really, it does. There's no other way of describing it on top of each other kind of style. And I'm sitting there and my, I'm just in shock. And my phone rings and my friend calls and she's like, I'm 20 miles into the desert lost, but I, I'm at this pool. Can you guys drive and get me? I swear to you, Noor, we go to her. She's literally in this Olympic size pool in the middle of the desert. It's totally in middle, nobody around. So me and her with all our Islamic gear jump into this pool and we're literally to over my head with water an hour after that whole experience. And it was just looking out into the vast.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:17):

So you baptized yourself essentially.

A. Helwa (01:05:21):

Literally, the teaching came down so hard,

Noor Tagouri (01:05:24):

So hard,

A. Helwa (01:05:26):

So softly. It was like Allah can change your state from jalal to Jamal instantly. When you're in your jalal, you turn to him. And when you're in your Jamal, don't forget to turn to him.

Noor Tagouri (01:05:39):

Can you define both of those words for us?

A. Helwa (01:05:41):

Yes. Jalal being kind of the majesty, but also people kind of see that as a constricting qualities. The more difficult qualities and Jamal being the beauty, the more the ease of life. And so it's like when you're in a jalal of difficulty or the majestic sort of hard to bear qualities, divine qualities, you're turning to God with desperation. But in the Jamal, don't forget him because that's the space you could be forgetful. So when you're in the pool in the desert, don't forget that you were in the desert with no view of the pool. And so I'm in that space, all I'm thinking is subhanAllah And then I swear to you, I go home, I open a book, the first page, first paragraph says, life is like a desert. That's why you need a guide. Because with every wind, the topography changes and you don't know the signpost,

Noor Tagouri (01:06:42):

This is not true.

A. Helwa (01:06:42):

I swear. I swear on my life. You dunno. The signposts. Because life, when a breeze comes through, everything changes. You need someone who's gotten across to take you across.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:57):

Whoa.

A. Helwa (01:06:59):

Okay, I'm going to ask less intense questions next time I go on a hike.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:08):

Next time I'm just going to ask about the stones themselves and how those are created and why they're so beautiful.

A. Helwa (01:07:19):

And can you imagine all those stones? You would think I'd have the mine to take them out my backpack. I didn't.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:25):

No, no, no, no, no. I'm so happy that, so you have them.

A. Helwa (01:07:28):

Yeah, I should send you a picture. But yeah, I have them.

Noor Tagouri (01:07:31):

I would love to see a photo. I would never part ways with this, especially because, I don't know, I feel like one, the stones that come from the ground, just that's such pure, incredible energy. And the fact that you carried them throughout, that just means that I feel like they, they're holding the lesson with you and they're holding that experience with you. So I would love to just keep them as a keepsake. What a great souvenir. It's a great so story.

A. Helwa (01:07:59):

Yeah. I actually made it them into rings and a bracelet and I wear it sometimes to remind me who I am, which is a girl lost in the desert and who Allah is. That's incredible.

Noor Tagouri (01:08:14):

That's so good.

A. Helwa (01:08:15):

Who can guide you without maps?

Noor Tagouri (01:08:18):

Okay, so you know how we're on the same radio frequency right now. So I will continue on this. What's very in tune right now is fun facts that I've never actually shared with anyone. But sometimes, a lot of times, Adam, my husband will read to me as I go to bed, like a bedtime story. I love a bedtime story. So for the last week, he was reading the secrets book, but yesterday for the first time, he was like, like, do you have the secrets book? Is that what you want for me to read to you tonight? I know it sounds very childish, but it's like, to me, that's like my love history. Sweet. I really love it. And I said, not tonight, I actually want you to read for, I had a pretty challenging day yesterday. So I was like, I actually want you to read from this other book that I had just started. And my former teammate had sent it to me because I told her about a project I was working on and she said, I think that you need to read this book. And the book was a field guide to Getting Lost. And are you familiar with this book?

A. Helwa (01:09:31):

No, I haven't heard of it.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:34):

Oh my gosh. And so literally the words that I fell asleep to last night were about how people get lost, why people get lost, and how they either do or don't get found. And so when you're telling me the story in my head, I'm just like, I have this next layer of understanding and perspective because there's actually art to getting lost and getting found. And I am, we've only started this book, so I'm still early in this process. But it's so amazing that you've brought this up because in this, the thick of this journey that I'm on personally, I come back to often the beauty in getting lost in that, how do we actually celebrate getting lost? How do we embrace getting lost? How do we recognize that getting lost is not actually a bad thing? I mean, obviously when you're lost in a desert for many, many hours and you have to face death in that way, it's not like the healthiest best thing.

(01:10:38):

But the idea and the feel, the getting lost is a mindset. And that's actually what the book had said. It was getting lost as a mindset. And how, right now, for me at least, so the next project that I'm working on is a documentary series documenting the state of religion, spirituality, and faith. Wow. Today and amazing, every one of my projects, it's this broader investigation, but it's rooted in this personal journey of me going on this and me trying to figure out what is this state and why have so many people felt the need to leave religion? Why are more people leaning towards spirituality? In that same podcast that I had listened to with the reverend, with Krisa Tippett, she mentions how the perception of spirituality versus religion, people often think of spirituality as just fluff and you just don't want to commit to anything.

(01:11:35):

So you're just going to call yourself that. But it's actually such engaging, intentional practice and connection to God. And so I've just been thinking about how people have, and I think about language a lot and how we say a lot of us say the same words, but we don't mean the same things. And so for example, this is a very vulnerable example, but I am part of the journey that I'm on right now is taking a step back from the hijab or from covering, which is I'm approaching 30 and it's something I've done since I was 15 years old and feels like a step that I really need to take for myself because of just all of the weight that I've carried and for many personal reasons. And to some of my loved ones, it may comes off to them as a lack of faith.

(01:12:30):

And to me, it's an act of faith or a leap of faith because it's an action that I feel so deeply that I'm taking to say, I only want to do things that I know I'm doing for God and not for other people, or not because of expectations or because of perception. And I need to figure this out my myself. So I've been thinking today and yesterday about this idea of how many of us define faith differently. And I think that language is always a good starting place, but language is also a tool in which we can come back to and we can use on the path to being lost. To getting lost. So I know you just shared your story of getting lost, but post that experience, especially since you were writing secrets during that process, how did you tap into the tool of language and maybe even specifically the word faith, if you have a definition for that, how did that become a tool that you put into your kit for the next potential time you found yourself in a desert for 20 hours?

A. Helwa (01:13:46):

Wow. What feels like it comes up right now is there's actually these words I wrote and it's literally titled Religious Shame.

(01:14:03):

And I feel like I want to share this with you, but before that, in regards to what you shared about your journey, it's about I feel like the Islamic path is about love and that love. Someone once asked me to find love and I said death. And it's a feeling of being willing to die into the presence. And there's a story of story of Nassredine. I always go back to the Mullah Nassredine. He's like this comical character. Many countries call them, call him theirs. But he goes across time and space and there's a story of him where he's late and he runs into the mosque to pray and he does his prayers kind of quickly. And then the imam grabs him and he's like, Nassredine, what was that? That was lightning. That doesn't count. Now do your prayers intentionally and slowly. And the imam stood there and Nassredine like prayed slowly. And then the imam said, now, which one do you think God would like better? And Nassredine said, well, the first one I did for God, but the second one I did for you.

(01:15:31):

And it's just a reminder that we have to make our religion our own and the companions, the family of the prophet piece upon, don't inherit your faith. Investigate it. Yes, be present with it. And that's takes a lot of courage. And I believe that the path of Islam is really, it's actually quite sophisticated and beautiful. It's clear, but it's not simple. It takes time to sit with it and ask for Allah to open the way for us. And so in response to this question of faith, like there is this, there's these words I wrote about religious shame and it frames how some of us reapproach faith in our taking in some of our cultural influences that sometimes aren't the true truth of faith. And so I'm just, if we have time, it's just a few minutes. I thought I could read this. I love that.

(01:16:46):

The day I learned God's name, I also learned guilt. I also learned shame. Self-hate was the first messenger that came. See as a child, no one told me that God and punishment were not the same the way I was raised, placed even more seeds of fear into my faith. Preachers paved into my brain so many pathways, brimstone and hate that the thousand sermons in my head eventually Brayden to a single voice that said, you will never be forgiven. You will never be saved. Before I could even love God, I was already far too afraid. He would throw me into an ocean of flames. Shame is a disease that seeps into my heart vein deep, but it's more than this blood that I bleed. It bleeds into my self-worth convincing me. I am nothing more than my weight and dirt. Shame is a cigarette bud in a forest to drop brush.

(01:17:45):

She doesn't take much to burn you up and make you think you don't deserve to be loved. I didn't think I deserve to be loved. So it's no surprise I couldn't accept who I was. It's no surprise I tried to hide beneath the surface, try to convince the world and myself that I was perfect as I felt this person to be worthless. I was a thousand different people each more broken than staying glass and cathedrals binging on shame and doses that were lethal until I was convinced that God's mercy must not exist. How could a loving God make you feel like this? You don't deserve to live. Shame must be the devil's greatest trick because A placed a vast abyss between me and my God convincing me I was a fraud. That I was my flaws. It took 10 years before I saw that I never felt like I belonged because my perception of God was wrong.

(01:18:44):

I realized the real lie was to think I had to be perfect to come to faith when it's God who erases all our mistakes. I wish I could go back in the past and make that confused girl, grasp the infinite mercy that God has. I wish someone would've been there to say what I will say today. God's love is not just based on how we behave. He's entirely independent for what he creates. His love is unconditional. He doesn't just depend on our faith, our actions and thoughts could never change the fact that God cares that his love is infinite and God shares that His mercy proceeds his wrath. That love are the tiles that his path that he doesn't judge or condemn our filth or our sins only seeks for us to turn back to him. So don't be afraid to come with your shame.

(01:19:40):

God already knows everything anyways, not returning to God because you're too filthy. It's like not taking a shower because you're too dirty. It makes no sense because if we didn't make mistakes, God said he'd create another creation that did because he loves that much to forgive. So this life, it's not about wrong versus right. It's about reaching toward the light. It's about knowing who you are, that you are not defined by your scars, that you were chosen over the mountains and the stars to be the carrier of God's names in your heart. So next time shame tries to poke holes in your boat of faith. Next time you hear whispers that say, you'll never be saved, look at the SSP and straighten the eyes and tear off your human disguise and blind the darkness with your infinite light. Tell the devil that this time you won't be tricked by his lies. That this time you see that you are a mirror for the divine, so you are already perfect inside. Because perfection is not to be free from flaws or defects. It's to never forget the forgiving God that you reflect.

Noor Tagouri (01:20:58):

And one plus one equals two. And that's what she prefers. That was. Thank you.

*AD BREAK*

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A. Helwa (01:21:07):

I just share this because I wrote this just about 10 years ago. So it's a reminder that we all come onto this path from our different stories and our different pains and our different burdens. And if we pray to God to show us a path beyond and past the things that we inherited, it says light, light and love that shines through and our histories can sometimes get in the way of receiving that. And that's the practice of AstaghfirullahulAtheem, it's turning from that which is not true or illusion to that which is true, InshaAllah.

Noor Tagouri (01:22:05):

Thank you. Helwa. What is a question that you are currently asking yourself?

A. Helwa (01:22:48):

I feel like it's less a question and more a prayer.

Noor Tagouri (01:22:54):

Beautiful.

A. Helwa (01:22:58):

I asked one of my friends once, she's a spiritual companion, what legacy do you want to leave this earth when you pass? And she said, I want to leave this earth a sincere prayer. I want my legacy to be that. So I've started to sort of call into my heart prayers now, not just because questions get me lost in the desert, but No, I'm just kidding.

Noor Tagouri (01:23:41):

Never asks another question again.

A. Helwa (01:23:43):

Never asks another question. Unless I'm in a mall in Dubai. I'm not asking questions, I'm just kidding. No, yeah. But the question that's like question slash prayer I guess on my heart is Allah guide me to hold myself with the gentleness I so easily hold others with. In the past I would've asked, Allah, how can I hold myself with a gentleness that I, but I don't, I want to receive the epiphany in my heart and not in my mind. So I reframe it into a prayer.

Noor Tagouri (01:24:40):

Whoa. I like that. Reframing questions into prayers so that you can receive the epiphany in your heart instead of your mind. That's a bar.

A. Helwa (01:24:55):

Okay,

Noor Tagouri (01:24:56):

Thank you. Thank you. Sure. So we have this beautiful book club of your book, Secrets of Divine Love. And it's wild because I had posted about the book and my aunt had gifted it to me years ago, and many people in the book club, it was one of those things that, it's funny enough, actually, I think it was when I kind of, in the beginning of my journey, in this chapter of my journey where I had this realization, I was like, you know what? I think I just really need to read the Quran. And then instead what popped up, literally the book was on my bench and I had really seen it for the first time was Secrets of Divine Love. And I realized that it needed, I needed to start here because I had built up so much resistance that I needed to just feel immense amounts of love from the word of God before being as a way to start softening my heart, I think.

(01:26:10):

And anyway, I shared the book and I said, I was like, if I had the capacity to do this as a book club, I would, but I think part of me was just like, let me just put this out there and see how people react. And I had never received such a reaction where people not only were like, please actually make this a book club, but they wanted to be of service. And so I couldn't even tell you how many people were like, I know you don't have capacity, so I can handle this, or I'll do this or I'll do this, let's just do it. And I was like, whoa. And it felt like such a responsibility. And we had shared the signup a few times and we got 1100 signups, which is kind of bonkers. And the, yeah, subhanAllah and it's just been become such a beautiful community where during Ramadan, every Sunday we have about a couple hundred people come on and sit for two to three hours and we share and we talk and we ask questions. So I want to honor their time. I had them submit questions and there's quite a few, but I'm only going to ask a couple because I know, okay.

(01:27:21):

I mean I know that you're probably, it's very late to where you are.

A. Helwa (01:27:26):

So Ramadan nights.

Noor Tagouri (01:27:28):

Yeah, exactly. Okay. They're very profound questions, but I'll ask to one from Amira in the Philippines, which actually I really like this one. What does Jannah mean to you? Or Paradise Or heaven? What does that mean to you?

A. Helwa (01:27:50):

So the first thing that came up for me was that everything in this realm is a symbol. And in that symbol, it's hiding its essence. And what we reach for is the essence, but we see the symbol. So if I was sitting in front of you, I would be reaching for present with this quality in you that language couldn't capture, but we would land on a hug.

Noor Tagouri (01:28:32):

Yes.

A. Helwa (01:28:32):

It's like you would hit a symbol. Everything here is symbols, just like language. The beautiful thing about Arabic is it's. The root system shows you that there's more to it. And so I feel like heaven is a place where the cloak comes off and you're in the pure essence of that, which it's like in quantum anyways, in quantum mechanics you have something called entangled electrons. And it's like

Noor Tagouri (01:29:08):

Yes we love Quantum talk here.

A. Helwa (01:29:08):

Okay, okay, well there's this entanglement with essence, and you're finally present without separation,

(01:29:20):

But in light. And to me, that's the deep long, it's the filling of every space and the heart. But the filling is interesting because the space is the illusion, and that's what you notice. So it's a completion. And so for me, that's like being with the presence of the prophets speak upon them all and the guys and the teachers and holy people, and of course, God, but how are you with unity as a separate self? And it's really that dissolving is like, so yeah, I feel like at the core of all my longing is, is that desire for unity. So for me, heaven would be that to be with the essence without the separation of forms.

Noor Tagouri (01:30:21):

So I'm so happy you shared that because that's how I've actually been reflecting on it too, is just being in the purest form of unity and oneness where we're all kind of back together in that way. So this question is from Juhi from New York. What is something unexpected you learned during the research process, either about Islam or other cultures and religions you mentioned in the book?

A. Helwa (01:30:57):

That's a really good question.

Noor Tagouri (01:31:01):

She's a great question asker.

A. Helwa (01:31:03):

Yeah, she's good, man. That's one of the things I did realize with the book club was just how wonderfully intelligent and deep and beautiful and sensitive and generous and amazing. These, I think mostly women, but it's just so beautiful. I just was blown away. There's definitely some writers, poets and philosophers night

Noor Tagouri (01:31:30):

That tends to be the audience,

A. Helwa (01:31:34):

Man. It's that radio tuning you got going there.

Noor Tagouri (01:31:37):

We love it.

A. Helwa (01:31:39):

That's a great question. So one of the things that I think really surprised me was how much the theology of different traditions can be different, but how the stories are so similar. And I find that to be, so one of the things that I've found, if you asked me if I had a day off, what I would spend doing in terms of reading, it would always be collecting stories. That's my thing. Go to libraries, collect stories. It's the thing I love doing more than anything. And that's where I really learned that our experiences as human beings are very, very similar.

(01:32:27):

The meaning we attribute to things can be very different, but if you really listen to a person, to people across time actually and space reading these books, but even in the present moment, I learned if you really listen not to what a person is saying, but to what is moving them, you'll find that it's not that different from you. So you may have someone who's politically very different from you and you may say that's really, that's racist, that's discriminatory. And if you ask them, well, why did you say that? And why and why? And you keep asking, they usually end up at a value that you agree with. But the way they imagine obtaining that value may be something you're mentally against.

(01:33:21):

And for me, it's always been so interesting because you see that across traditions too, that we are all looking for love, we're all looking for home, we're all looking for lo belonging. But sometimes that leads to oppression. I don't agree with that. But that deep belonging inside is a truth. And one of the ways it's described as it's a quality of God hits the mirror of the heart, but if there's a crack based on a trauma or wound, the light refracts and that refraction leads to pain, suffering, oppression, or the real longing for human beings is we're all reaching for God. We just land on different things. And for me, it was just a really beautiful teaching. And it's still unfolding, I think in many ways.

Noor Tagouri (01:34:23):

I have a little sub-question to that because I, it's less specific, but it's more, I mean, your answer right now feels less specific, but more of the broader light that encompasses the body of work. And just in brief words, aside from getting lost in the desert, if you were to tell somebody in a couple of sentences how you received this book, I don't want to even say, how did you write this book? How did you receive it? How did you create this space inside of you to be open enough to receiving this book? What does that look like?

A. Helwa (01:35:05):

I remember the moment very clearly was it's actually, well, it's actually three moments really. The first moment was a teacher of mine put her hand on my back and said, how are you doing? And I said, I'm good. And then she said, how are you doing, really? And I was waterworks, totally a mess. That was the first experience of someone saying, I care about your truth. And then the blessing of receiving so many beautiful teachings and just feeling loving it. And then the next moment, which was now it's time to share. And me going, no, no, no, not me. Not me, not me. Yep. Not me. So the denial came very quick. No, not me, other people, someone else, a chef, any mom, someone who was whatever. And it was just, no, no, no.

(01:36:13):

And then the next piece came, which is then I heard the pain of someone's voice tuned in the universe saying, I'm not, well, really there's a longing, really? And it was like that teacher that placed her hand on my back and said, I care about you. It was like the mantle was passed. You're not going to do it the way I did, but put your hand on someone else's back. And what does it look like for you to say, I care about you, really? And that's really what it felt like. It felt like the book really just came in for a one person. It still blows me away. And it's actually interesting since, because that's actually in the book, and I remember my editor being like, what is this? Make no sense? I'm like, I don't think it's supposed to make sense. Person who knows will know. They'll know

Noor Tagouri (01:37:08):

They'll know. But then everybody in book club raises their hand. They're like, that was me.

A. Helwa (01:37:13):

And then it's funny because that's what happened is people started messaging. I think it was my prayer, I think it was my, and I'm like, I think it was the plane of existence. Exactly, exactly. It's that place that you full circle where present, and it's like everyone arrived there and it could have came to anyone in that plane. That's why I don't take it so seriously. That also, back to the pseudonym, it's appropriate to have a name that's in that just reflects beauty, God's beauty. And it's not really owned by anyone because it's, it came down to one just like, okay, you wrote it. And I know sometimes I say that and people are like, oh, are you saying this is Revelation? No, I just mean in my own little world, God inspired me. He has inspired many writers and artists, I think.

Noor Tagouri (01:38:08):

Yeah. But isn't it all revelation in a way? Why does, do we have to get into the semantics of what the technicalities of that requires? I feel like, and you say with artists and writers, and I say this, I know my tone sounds a little bit frustrated, but it's just like, but God speaks through all of us, and in our words, and I always call it downloads or channeling when it's bigger than you, and why do we have to put shame around that? I feel like it's actually giving God the credit for using you as a vessel. And that is, to me, the most important prayer or ask that I have is just continue to use me as a vessel. I don't know for what this time or this day or whatever, but I know that I can feel peace when it gets really scary because that is the guidance that is being given.

A. Helwa (01:39:04):

I agree. I mean, I see revelation as revealed truth. Exactly. Meaning it's been present always. Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:39:10):

Yes. So

A. Helwa (01:39:11):

Yes,

Noor Tagouri (01:39:11):

Yes. Yeah. Juhi also asks, what are you currently reading or listening to right now?

A. Helwa (01:39:18):

Ooh, good question. Yeah. I'm actually currently reading two books. One is this, it's called Roomy Daylight. It's just selections of roomies poetry. And usually when I'm traveling, I read poetry because you're in a train, in a bus, in a plane, and it's nice just to take one or a few verses in. And then of course, the Quran because of the month of Ramadan. But

Noor Tagouri (01:39:51):

Do you have a translation that you read, or do you only read it in Arabic?

A. Helwa (01:39:55):

So I do both. But the translations I've, and it's, it's so interesting with translation because I like to read different ones because people have different takes on the same words. But I like Yahiya Emerick's, I like Muhammad Asad's, just reading through the different styles. But I'll always try to have a different translation every year. Interesting. And it almost like it illuminates different aspects of the revelation, which I found I found a lot of value in. And then I'm actually, so aside from the poetry book, I'm actually in a learning about the sacred tradition of music, which is a little, people get what think about in the Islamic world, but it's about the different spiritual traditions and the influences of music. Because even in Palestine, you used to, 400 years ago on the steps of near Al Aqsa mosque, they used to have masters teach the nay, the oud. It was very much a part of the culture in Turkey that used to have Maqams, which is the musical tunings of whatever, and they would prescribe them as medicine to,

Noor Tagouri (01:41:25):

Yeah, because it's vibration.

A. Helwa (01:41:28):

And it's just then all across into the Christian tradition, the Hindu just all across. It's just interesting to see how people interacted with sound. And I think it's really important as I'm sitting deeply with Quran being a recital and sound and the impact of its sound. And a lot of people who study deeply the different recitations of the Quran have a really good understanding of music and tonal and their tonal and melo melody. So it's really just very fascinating. And I think it's one of the ways that I just say that anyone's out there is if you're studying faith study other modalities, maybe it's philosophy, maybe it's neuroscience, maybe it's physics, but it enriches. It really does enrich because it widens your mind to see different signs. So yeah, I've just been really enjoying this course.

Noor Tagouri (01:42:30):

I love that. My sub-question to that is when a person chooses to embark on a spiritual journey and they're afraid and they're leaving behind what they know to go into the unknown, what is the book that you're like, take this with you as a companion?

A. Helwa (01:42:55):

I think it's funny because I'm flipping in the library of my mind, but what I actually land on, which is not very satisfying, I think for people, is I would actually take an empty notebook. And

Noor Tagouri (01:43:15):

Of course you said that,

A. Helwa (01:43:16):

And I would let your journey speak to you and make space

Noor Tagouri (01:43:22):

That's perfect

A. Helwa (01:43:24):

To live your own. Rumi says, don't read the myths of others. Unfold your own. So how God is guiding you speak to you. Doesn't mean you won't get counsel from outside and be influenced, but let your own words. Sometimes my friends won't pen pal, and often when they send me what they wrote, I'll record myself reading it and send it back to them, which sounds like you would enjoy that.

Noor Tagouri (01:43:55):

I would love that

A. Helwa (01:43:59):

But I do that because I genuinely believe that there's something in the recited word back. That you now, you're receiving it through different mode. And I think that can be really healing. So to write and to read it out loud to yourself, to engage with your feelings, to make space for how you feel.

Noor Tagouri (01:44:21):

Yeah.

A. Helwa (01:44:22):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:44:23):

Oh, beautiful. Thank you. And then the way we wrap these conversations is a fill in the blank. So you can share one, two, or three statements filling in the blank. If you really knew me, you would know. And you got to make it spicy because you write under a pseudonym. I don't even know what you look like. I know nothing about you except for what has been published. So if you really knew me, you would know what?

A. Helwa (01:44:56):

Ooh, you would know. I love to ride my skateboard to the beach. Oh my God. It's messing people's image of who I am right now.

Noor Tagouri (01:45:07):

No, this is exactly the image that I need. Thank you.

A. Helwa (01:45:11):

Okay. Do you have to do three statements?

Noor Tagouri (01:45:13):

You can do it. Do you feel content with one? If you want to do more, you can. I would love more because this is the inside scoop. This is, if

A. Helwa (01:45:21):

If you really knew me, you would know that I would write texts that entirely rhyme for 20 lines for no good reason. And I can't stop. It's a problem. If you knew me, you'd know that I randomly call my friends and I totally write friendship, love letters. And if you really knew me, you would know that I genuinely think that I'm the most average Muslim that I know, and I feel beyond grateful for the friends that I have that continue to inspire me. And I would include your name in that list, Noor.

Noor Tagouri (01:46:15):

Does this mean I get a friendship letter?

A. Helwa (01:46:16):

Yeah. Oh my God. Long rhymey letter.

Noor Tagouri (01:46:20):

I only

A. Helwa (01:46:21):

Rhyme. Yeah. But really, I know that people who came on this call, maybe some people are listening to this that didn't but you by the grace of God, so masterfully hold space for people and so sincerely ask questions. And I know that you do this. This is something you're really good at, and I'm sure you've been doing it for a while, but it's not just how you do it, it's the spirit in which you hold people with. It's so genuine and it's so sincere. And I deeply pray that Allah gives you the ease and the gentleness you give others that you're able to give that to yourself. And that as you're walking through this journey that you're on, that you feel his presence so close to you in every moment. And then in those lonely moments of solitude where everyone else is asleep or everyone else is in their own worlds, that you feel the presence of the God who created all worlds, that He's with you. And I deeply, deeply pray for you to have the openings that you seek and that you feel safe, secure, and mercy and kindness of Allah upon you always, ameen

Noor Tagouri (01:47:38):

Ameen, I am going to receive all of that because I know that that came from outside of you and above you and around you and all of the things. And it is more than appreciated. And thank you for putting your insides onto paper and giving a lot of people the opportunity to see that the language of God is one of love, and it's one of love that exceeds the definition of love that we were taught. And the fear that we were taught is something that we have the courage and ability and strength to let go of so that we can embody and embrace ourselves in awe and in love and in graciousness. And that friendship is a medicine that allows us to continue that love. And so I'm grateful for your time and I'm grateful for your truth, and I'm grateful for your feedback and your light. And thank you for blessing our book club and allowing us to have this space where people can just literally show up exactly as they are. And be loved and be loved.

A. Helwa (01:48:52):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (01:48:53):

And also, I truly pray and hope that this trip that you take to Falasteen is filled with the inner peace and that inner peace radiates across the land that is experiencing so much violation violence, and that when you are there, you are embodying a light that can be covered and a light that can cover others and can protect them and protect you. And that you find a lot of stray cats who remind you that cats are Muslim and that they are filled with God's love and light, and that you eat amazing food and that you remember and you realize and you see exactly the humanity that we are meant to serve.

A. Helwa (01:49:48):

Ameen,

Noor Tagouri (01:49:51):

We did it.

A. Helwa (01:49:52):

Yay.

Noor Tagouri (01:49:53):

Thank you so much.

A. Helwa (01:49:55):

Thank you.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, AND SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER A. HELWA. MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR COPY OF SECRETS OF DIVINE LOVE. 

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE. 

(Transcript) Hisham Matar on “Moving On” From Tragedy, Documenting Family Stories, and Connecting with Art

3..2..1

Hello, Hello, Hello My Friends. Wow, I Have Missed You. Welcome Back To Podcast Noor. So, Podcast Noor Is Our Storytelling Interview Series That We Do In Between Our Investigations. And Our Last Investigative Podcast, Which, Side Note, Was Nominated For A Webby, Is Titled “Rep: A Story About The Stories We Tell.” And If You’re Familiar With Me Or My Work, I’m Sure You’ve Heard Me Talk About It. But, If You Haven’t Listened To It, Please Please Do. It Really Is The Journey Of A Lifetime. It’s An Investigation Into The Concept Of Truth, Objectivity, Representation And Our Relationships With Stories. And If You Have Istened To Rep, Then This Opening Episode Of This Season Of Podcast Noor Is Actually Going To Be Such A Tremendous And Beautiful Treat. So, Today’s Storyteller Is Someone Who I Believe Is One Of The Most Prolific Storytellers Of Our Time.

 Hisham Matar Is A Libyan American Author And Professor. His Award Winning Novels Include In The Country Of Men, Anatomy Of Disappearance, And Most Recently A Month In Siena. And In Between Writing Novels He Wrote A Memoir Titled: The Return: Fathers, Sons, And The Land In Between. This Is A Pulitzer Prize Winning Memoir. 

The First Time I Heard About The Memoir Was Actually On President Obama’s Summer Reading List. And I Remember Seeing That It Was A Libyan Author, And Being Like, Woah. I Have Never Actually Read A Book By A Libyan Person And So I Got Really Excited. Life Happened And Then I Really Believe In Like, The Divine Timing Of Reading A Book, And I Had Shared It With My Brother And My Family Members. I Hadn’t Even Started It Myself And My Brother Started The Book, And He Texted Me And Was Like “Have You Read It Yet?” And I Hadn’t And He Said, “I Feel Like You Guys Are Keys To Each Others Stories And There Isn’t Two People That I Can Think Of That Need To Meet More Than You And Hisham. That’s Literally What My Little Brother Said To Me And I Was Like Woah, Ok, He’s Never Said Anything Like That. I Need To Really Take This Seriously. But I Also Felt It. And So, The Story Of Hisham Matar And His Memoir Is That He Is On This Quest To Find His Father, Who Disappears When He’s 18 Years Old, At The Hands Of The Gaddafi Regime. And This Is, Of Course, I’m Saying It’s A Memoir, It’s A True Story And It Is One Of The Most Important Books That I Have Ever Read And Not Just Because, You Know, I’m Also Libyan Or I Have A Family Member Whose Also Been Missing At The Hands Of The Regime For Decades, But It Truly Is This Journey That Interrogates What It Means To Have Or Not Have A Father, Or, To Keep Someone’s Essence Alive, In Many Ways. And I Love That In The Title He Writes “Fathers, Sons, And The Land In Between.” Cause How Many Of Us Have Had Contentious Relationships With Our Fathers Or Parent Of Ours Or Whatever That May Look Like And Mean. I Just Cannot Recommend This Book Enough And The Way That This Book Moved Me. I Read It In Two Days, Guys. I Cried Every Chapter, I Would Read And I Would Have To Put It Down And It Wasn’t Just Crying Out Of Pain Of What I Was Reading. The Writing Is Just So - It Was - Hisham Literally Put To Words, Feelings That I Had Had That I Didn’t Know Existed. And, So, I Wanted To Start This Season Out With Our Conversation That We Have Because It Meant So Much To Me. Especially Off The Heels Of Rep, Where I Feel Like Rep Has Really Broken Me Open And I’m Asking So Many Questions About Who I Am In A Way That I’ve Never Knew That I Could. And So, I Just Have Such Gratitude For Hisham And I Urge, Urge You To Read His Memoir, “The Return,” And If You’re A Fiction Enthusiast Then His Novels - He Actually Gifted Me His Latest Novel “A Month In Siena” On Our Way Out Of The Interview And I’m So Excited To Dig Into It.

So We Recorded This Interview In His Office At Barnard College. And It Was A Transformative Conversation. I Even Invited My Little Brother To The Conversation So That He Would Be There To Witness Our Connection And Just This, Kind Of Reunion That All Of Us Had. Even Though We Didn’t Know Each Other Personally, You Just Sometimes Meet People And You’re Like, “We Do Know Each Other.” So It Was Kind Of Like That. Hisham Reflected A Lot On A Question That I Had Asked Him. He Texted Me After The Interview The Next Day And Said That He Had More He Wanted To Share, He Had Been Thinking About It. So, It Was Such A Treat That We Have An Addition To The Interview At The End Of The Episode. So Make Sure You Stick Around, And Without Further Ado I Would Love To Welcome You To Our First Storytelling Session Of This Season With Hisham Matar On What It Really Means To Move On.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:04):

I've just thought about sitting down with you for constantly for the last few days. And I think most times I think about it, I kind of just burst into tears. So this is a very unusual

Hisham Matar (00:00:23):

That's sort of the effect I have on people.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:28):

Yeah, I know I got that. But I think before I ask you anything, before I say anything, I just want to start off with gratitude and just deep, sincere gratitude. And I know that many people have spoken to you and shared with you how your words have affected them. And I want us four in this room to be four more people who share that sentiment. But more importantly and more importantly not, but the thing that my brother had said to me when he texted me about the urgency to read The Return was he said, I think that he has a key to the puzzle that you're trying to figure out. And that maybe I would have one for you too. And not in the most literal sense of answers of what's happened to our respective families, but like proof maybe or hope of why we do what we do. And I think when you're a writer or a storyteller, once the story is out there, it kind of no longer belongs to you.

(00:01:42):

Everybody has their own relationship with it, or anybody who encounters it has their own experience with it. And in that way, the stories are always bigger than us. But I just want to say thank you for writing words, expressing feelings and giving context to experiences that have surrounded me my entire life that I've never been able to grasp, or that even in my own family, people have never been able to articulate. And I was talking to my dad on FaceTime yesterday about this, and I was just telling him, I don't know how I'm going to be able to do this interview. I don't know how I'm going to do this conversation. And he said, it's very clear that hem has the gift of words and that gift is one that you've passed down to so many of us. And it's not a gift that is taken lightly. It's one that gives all of us context to the puzzle of our life. And as somebody who believes in asking questions without the intention of finding answers, I think in many ways the questions that you have given us maybe led us to asking more questions. But those questions sometimes felt stronger than an actual answer because they gave me personally the capacity to imagine, to think about, to humanize people and experiences that have often just been names and numbers in my brain. So with that, I just really want to start by saying thank you.

Hisham Matar (00:03:31):

I'm very touched. Thank you so much. And also greetings to you and to your brother and to your father.

Noor Tagouri (00:03:41):

Thank you. So the way we always start out these conversations is by doing a heart check in. So I first want to ask you today, how is your heart doing?

Hisham Matar (00:03:53):

My heart, I think it's doing all right. And of course you mean it metaphorically, my heart.

(00:04:04):

That's a very difficult question to answer briefly, because my heart is connected to my concerns. It's the place that has my concerns and also my passions. So my concerns these days are beyond the personal terrain. I obviously have the concerns that we all share about the world. I feel that we are in a tricky moment. We have some really serious problems in front of us. And so I think about those, but also my passions. Passions are to do with my engagements, with nature, with the people that I love and with works of art. I feel that art for me is not this

(00:05:09):

Extra thing. It's not, doesn't reside in the place that I think our society has delegated for it. Yeah, some extra thing, some entertainment. Art for me is fundamental. It's central to any project to do with humanity, with a sense of any sense of progress. I think you have to start with, you know, cannot have a city without a theater or a library or a museum. Those are the first things, parliament, court, how library, museum, that's how you start. And so my relationship, my engagement with art, whether as a writer or as a teacher or in my own personal life, it's very central to me. So the paintings that I'm looking at, the pieces of music that I'm listening to, the books that I'm reading, it's a very serious engagement and it feeds me in so many ways. Some are intellectual and some are just purely emotional.

(00:06:15):

So my heart is a place that has in it concerns private in general, but it's also, I must say it's also a place of joy and of praise in the much widest sense. At least I try. And I'm also interested in a very personal way. I'm interested in housekeeping, my heart, tidying it up, making, what does that look like? I'm not sure, but it's something to do with a sense of quiet or a sense of compassion. Maybe my heart can very easily get cluttered with fear or I'm upset about something or so housekeeping in that sense, reminding your heart all the time of its boundless strain, the fact that it is really connected to others. This is why I go to art, because I'm very interested, even though I've written a lot about my personal experience and I'm interested in this specific literature cannot work without the specific person.

(00:07:36):

They do this, they move, they say that everything's very specific. Yet my real passion, my real enthusiasm is not actually for myself. My real enthusiasm is the ways in which I can use myself, my experiences, my as limited as they are to connect to this broader terrain, this incredible event of being a human being. That we are born in the aftermath of events that have preceded us and have authored a lot of what's around us, but we are also born into a very complex inheritance. An inheritance That means that we have a cause to be ashamed, genuinely ashamed. And we also have cause to be incredibly proud. We have an inheritance that breaks the heart, but we also have an inheritance that mends it and enlivens it and dignifies us. And so I'm interested in the complexity of that inheritance. I don't feel that any register to resolve it into an absolute verdict that we are terrible and worthy of shame or that we are some sort of noble thing and only worthy of praise unsatisfying those two verdicts.

(00:09:14):

We are, I'm much more interested in how one can sustain think about, hold these contradictions and use them as a means to enliven the lived experience and thought and feeling. That's where art for me becomes so central, because art at its best is a host of these conflicts and it's such a concentrated place. Somebody has spent a lifetime learning something and has in invested so much, at least I'm thinking of the great paintings or books they have. So much is contained in them and often it's complex. So this is a very long way to say that my heart is a place of contradictions. It's a place where I rejoice, but also where I am, I burdened with grief, with concern, with very genuine concern about this moment. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:10:24):

I love that when reflecting on your heart, you go straight to art as almost a mirror or a reflection and ability to see more clearly maybe the contradictions that typically exist inside of us, but people have been able to make that contradiction appear on canvas or appear on the page. And I know you have this beautiful tradition or habit, whatever you want to call it, of consistently going to museums and sometimes spending weeks or years looking at just one piece of art over the same painting over and over. So

Hisham Matar (00:11:05):

You're very kind to call it tradition. It's more like a tick or a disease or

Noor Tagouri (00:11:09):

I love it, but I mean, I wish it for more of us because even the way that you talk about how you no longer could do that habit of just walking through a museum within an hour of just looking at every painting, but just becoming immersed in it. I mean, to me, I started painting a couple of years ago at simply because it was the only way I could get things out when I was working on Rep. And it started with that first episode,

Hisham Matar (00:11:37):

Oh really? Is

Noor Tagouri (00:11:38):

When I started painting and I was like, I, there's something that needs to come out and I feel like this is the only way that it can make sense for me. And the fact that, you know, are someone who spends years maybe even looking at the same painting for however many times, and you're essentially building a relationship with that piece of art. I would love to know in this moment in your life, what is the painting that you're building a relationship with or the piece of literature?

Hisham Matar (00:12:09):

That you building. I would love to tell you about that, but before I do, I'm curious, when you said I started painting because it's the only way that I can, I think you said get things out or express things. And what have you found, what has come out in the paintings that isn't possible for it to come out in any other way?

Noor Tagouri (00:12:33):

Well, I'll have to show you after this too, so that I can explain. But I think for me, it's funny, as I was growing up, there was this line, I started speaking at a very young age, public speaking, and there was this line I used to always say just as a joke where I would say I wasn't really good at, good at sports. I wasn't good at art, but I knew I was really good at asking questions. And so I think I had it in my head for so long that I wasn't good at art. And art was something you needed to be good at. Nice. And um, then when I was working on rep, I had gone through a box that my mom had kept of all of my old paintings and drawings from elementary school. There was this one, there was a couple of abstract pieces, and there was this one that was a magnet actually, that I was so happy that she had it because I had remembered painting it or drawing it.

(00:13:28):

And it was like this magical bird with and behind the bird was a waterfall and a cave. And I started crying when I saw that I did it in 2003 actually, so exactly 20 years ago. And I remember as a child, when I drew it in my art class, I remember I was drawing something I kept seeing in my head. And when I had found rediscovered, this drawing, this magnet, which now resides on my fridge, I realized that's where I live now. I live on the land that I live on, has this little enclave and waterfalls and this. This morning I jumped into the water, I jump in every morning,

Hisham Matar (00:14:14):

Okay, stop it. Stop

Noor Tagouri (00:14:16):

I promise. That's what I'm telling you have to come right at the cabin. And I was in the cabin and I had found this, and I just started crying because at 10 years old, I had drawn the place that I live on now, the land that I live on as if it was in me the whole time. And so after I had found that, and I'd gone through some other drawings and paintings, I decided that I was going to just try it again and see what happened. And at the time, a couple of my teammates had actually gifted me this entire paint set. It was canvases and beautiful paints. And I just kind of left it aside and thought, what am I going to do with this? And I decided to break it open. And in the cabin I started painting, but instead of trying to paint something, words kept coming out.

(00:15:09):

And so I started painting words. And the art of painting words became so profound to me because I was forced to take my time with what I was writing so, or what I was painting essentially. And so every stroke of a letter that I was painting, it felt like this really this stream or this download that I was getting. And so I started just, it almost kind of became poetry where all these words were coming out in this flow and it became a hack that I figured out. So when I was stuck, most of rep was actually written up in the cabin. I'm very much like I write on yellow legal pads, like try to be off my computer as much as I can. And so I would literally write the questions I was investigating onto a canvas and then the answers would follow. And that's what I kept finding over and over again. And then I found a pallet knife and I just started going crazy with abstract. And so I kind of mixed that with the words and have found a lot of answers since then.

*SHORT AD BREAK*

Hisham Matar (00:16:14):

So the painting that I'm looking at, yes, I'm looking at, well, I mean just to say about my tick about the returning to the same painting every week. I don't really stand in front of it for a very long time. It's usually about 20 minutes or so.

Noor Tagouri (00:16:36):

That's a long time to most people

Hisham Matar (00:16:38):

It is a bit of a long time, but not, and then I look at a couple of other pictures and that's it. I don't, but I find the companionship of a work of ours interesting. I'm not enthusiastic by attempts to approach a work of art transactionally. I'm going to go look at you and you're going to make me feel good, or I'm going to look at you and then you got to teach me something about the specific thing. I'm not enthused by that register. I am much more excited by engaging my curiosities about it, my questions. So the painting becomes a lively location for me where I go and feel and think. I'm not entirely always clear what I'm going to get, and that's exactly what I'm excited by that I don't know what's going to happen. A bit like certain kinds of conversations that there are certain people you sort of know you might enjoy very much their company, but you have a sort of sense of the repertoire of things that they're going to talk about depending on the mood they'll be in. And there's another kind of very rare conversation, at least in my life, extremely rare, where you really don't know what you're going to get, but whatever you're going to get is going to be very interesting. And great works of art usually do that to me. So I'm engaged in this conversation and then when I exhausted or it exhausts me or I basically get bored, I move on to the next thing. And that usually takes a while for me. It takes quite a long, depends.

Noor Tagouri (00:18:36):

Can you walk me through the process you're engaging with? And maybe this is with the part, the piece that you're looking at right now, but like what's your first layer? What's your second? What's your third? Like How are you getting deeper and deeper and deeper every time you engage?

Hisham Matar (00:18:48):

Hard to account for in that way, but say right now, for example, I'm looking at this painting by Goya called the Forge. It's at The Frick here in New York. It's a very unusual painting because it's very large and usually paintings. Then if you're going to do an oil painting that large, it's usually somebody really important because they've paid for it. It's quite expensive to paint the painting that big. And Goya is very interesting because he exists at that cusp where the patron was still the dominant motivator, facilitator, but there was also a register where you could sort of do your own thing that you're not painting for somebody or for a commission. And he did a lot of drawings that way many. But there are very few paintings of that size that I know of at least that were not commissioned. And so the subject is very humble, these three smiths who are around a forge, around a flame and hammering at something, but they're mid hammering.

(00:20:06):

So the hammer is up in the air and you look at it narratively like that. Everything I've said about it now is the least interesting thing about it, right? What's really interesting is the way that he creates of a painting, a kind of energy of motion that these three figures seem to be involved in some physical momentum that you are not entirely sure whether they're even in control of. Like you don't know where is the hammer exactly going to fall? Is it going to fall in the right place? And so you feel that he's created something quite amazing for a painting to do. He's created a kind of dance of some sort, a very slightly unsettling one. And so I'm writing about it. And so I don't always write about the paintings I'm looking at, but this one I know I want to write about.

(00:21:05):

So I why? Because I've been asked to on some level, I mean it's a painting I've always been interested in, but somebody said, The Frick said, would you write about it? And I said, I'd love to write about it. So I've been, well, no, actually the Frick said, would you choose a painting in our collection and write about it? And I thought, that's the one I want to write about because I've had a question mark over it for a long time. I'm not really sure how it works. I'm intrigued by it. I'm led to it by questions very much like the books that I teach, I teach the books that I haven't quite resolved yet that I want to think about more deeply. Initially, when I first started teaching 12 years ago, I thought, you teach the thing that best and you have all your opinions are set on it.

(00:22:02):

And I did that once and it was terrible because it was just the class, just they just sat there, listened, received, there was no nothing dynamic there. So I learned the hard way that you should actually teach the thing that you are deeply fascinated by, but have questions about. And so I'm looking at the Forge and the book that I'm reading right now, rereading for the Upteen Time, and I am teaching, it is a book that frightens a lot of people. So I'm a bit of an advocate for it because I want to encourage people to read it. And it frightens them because it's very long. It's Marcel Prust French novelist, and he's really only written one work and it's made up of seven volumes. And it's called In Search of Lost Time. I teach only the first volume because there's in time to teach all the others.

(00:23:04):

But it's just incredible. I've been reading this book for a very long time. The first time I read it, I think I was in my mid twenties and it still takes my breath away. I still can't quite, I don't know how he did it. It shimmers and moves in ways that are very difficult to account for. So teaching it is a joy because I get the pleasure of being in conference with young, smart readers thinking about this magnificent sort of object. So yeah, things, I suppose the short answer for why what happens with a painting when I'm looking at it over a long period of time is I feel a deepening acquaintanceship with it. I feel I get to know more to it about it. It's a bit, maybe another analogy is editing. When you're editing a work, you are admitting secretly that you are never in one instant as intelligent as your book, that the book is an accumulation of insights over a long period of time.

(00:24:20):

In my case, it takes me three, four years to write a book. And in that time, all of these accumulations add up. And so the book will always be smarter, will always be better than me always. And this engagement with a painting, the things that I accumulate over that time cannot be done in one for me at least. Maybe for some people they can, but for me, I can't do it in one or even a month. I need quite a long period of time to accumulate those things. And also it feels like it. Companionship is really the word I feel that the forge, I've been now looking at it for two and a half years. And the forge is not oh, the whole time because I only live in New York for four months of the year. So in those four months I've been looking at it and the Forge is been with me with, as I am looking at other paintings, reading other books with friends in my moments of quiet. It's in some aspect of it, of course, not all the time, thankfully, not all the time with me. And that companionship is enriching it. It's enjoyable. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:25:54):

I love that companionship that you are able to not only engage in but articulate what a relationship looks like with a piece of art or something that, or just the affirmation that life exists in this stillness too. I would love to know what question you are asking yourself these days in this moment in time as you're engaging with these pieces.

Hisham Matar (00:26:33):

I don't know if there is one singular question mean, there's a set of questions.

Noor Tagouri (00:26:43):

Well, you're really good at asking questions too, so I'm glad to hear them

Hisham Matar (00:26:46):

I mean, there are a set of questions and they're very intimate to the work. Cause I'm working, I, I've just closed the book and I'm sort of at those very last moments where I'm just looking at the final proofs. And something interesting happens when, for me, at least when a book is finished because you have the journey is a bit like this, at least for me, the beginning is a love affair. You're very excited. You feel like you really feel that the idea of the book, the first lines 20 pages or you really feel that somebody has gifted them to you, that they don't really belong to you and you feel so excited and enliven and then you get deeper and deeper and deeper. Urban Arab is, I think, whatever is it 13, how many stages of love that he does.

(00:27:47):

He does this meditation on the different stages of love. It's beautiful text. And he uses the Arabic words, the many Arabic words that describe love. And he uses them to describe the different stages. And one of the early ones is in al-laheeb, which is the word comes from flame. So he says that's the early stage because the lovers need to be welded, they need to be welded together. And one of the very latest stages is [inaudible], which comes from the words to describe how a plant passes through the trellising. So it's something to do with intertwining and becoming part of the same structure. And those stages both in love perhaps, but certainly in a work can feel the stage of alek can feel anxious making because you think, oh, I'm really now I'm really bound up here. I'm really here now. And I feel that with the work, when you come to the midsection of it and you think, okay, I still don't resolved everything and I'm now, in my case, that usually takes about a year to get to that stage. And I'm not even certain that the things that I know it wants from me, I can supply.

(00:29:15):

In fact, usually every book I've written, it's never been obvious to me that I could pull it off. And that's somehow part of the enterprise because I need to be challenged in that way. I need, if I knew I could do it, I won't, won't be as exciting somehow.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:34):

But how do you get over that bridge? How do you get over that in your head? You have the idea that it's possible, but you're not entirely sure if you are going to be able to do it. And then is it you just start and then you see what happens? Or is it then you blink and you realize you're halfway done? How do you cross the threshold?

Hisham Matar (00:29:57):

Very slowly. You do it through work. In my case, I just work, I do it through the work. And there are moments of sometimes of genuine despair where I really can't see my way through and you know, cultivate in you. I mean, I'll tell you the things that I found are helpful. You cultivate a humility that teaches you that the work isn't about you. The work isn't in service of whatever it is that you are excited about. Your ego, the ideas in the book or some mission or some message or it's not, the work doesn't exist in order to serve your purposes. It's actually the other way around. You are here in service, you are lending everything. And when it comes to literature, it wants everything. You cannot hold anything back and you have to put that, you lay that down at its feet and you serve it.

(00:31:06):

And so that helps. Getting yourself out of the equation for me really helps in moments of despair. The other thing that helps is an acquaintanceship with your own practice, with what works for you. And every one of us is different here. So in my case, for example, the morning hours are my best hours. I like to work very early in the morning. And it's also very good for me not to work because when I get into trouble, I work 12 hour days and it's, that's not really good. So I work the mornings and then I take the afternoons off, do something else, go for a walk, look at a painting.

(00:31:56):

I have to manage these things somehow, make sure I sleep well. And then I make sure I see certain kinds of people. I have a very small, I know a lot of people, but I have very few friends. I think maybe most of us, it's hard to have many, many friends. But even amongst my friends, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, some friends demand certain things from us that we can give readily in certain states. And when we are compromised like that, in those moments I feel very compromised because I'm totally, I'm involved in a kind of battle very that is invisible and it's very difficult to explain to anybody who doesn't know it. So I just make sure that I frequent the people that fill me with gentleness and a sense of ease and intellectual. Similarly with works of art and so on, I might avoid certain things and go for other things.

(00:32:59):

Music suddenly becomes much more important during those times. And thankfully in London, where I live most of the year, I could go to a concert hall three times a week because they're cheap by comparison to New York. So just sort of learning whatever it is, whatever it is, baking, I don't know, it could be anything, right? That works for you. And those things work for me and make me patient with it. But really there is no other way through except to go through it to literally work your way through it. Interesting. That happens on the other side of it. That difficulty is that suddenly you feel the book is on your show, is on your back in a sense that it's pushing you forward. Things become a little bit less difficult, more. And then actually they become so effortless at certain moments that you even have to think, was it really that difficult? You start to doubt whether it was that difficult anyway. And then when you finish it, now, this is the stage where I'm at when I'm sort of looking at the proofs. You really see what you've done. And it's wonderful.

(00:34:13):

Look, I'll tell you something, I am, I've been very fortunate with my work. It got published and that in itself is not something to take for granted. It got read widely and by very thoughtful people. And I have encounters like this, the one I'm having with you now, which fills my heart and what you've said about it. So I'm, all of that I really take to heart. And it's been, but I must admit, the central joy, the real joy, the real joy is that part when you get to the end of the book and you really can see that you are not crazy that you've done it. And also what you were imagining in the beginning, you weren't mad. It actually is. It's happened. A form of it has happened. Not exactly, but a form of it has happened. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:35:11):

Thank you for sharing. That is, I mean, what a gem. And that's, so I think I just appreciate your openness with all of that because it's so clear and you can feel it and appreciate it. In the words that you write, you traditionally consider yourself a novelist. You've written a couple of novels and you also have written a memoir. And I've been thinking a lot about, especially today, where even in the United States, books are being banned from schools

Hisham Matar (00:35:46):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (00:35:48):

As someone who enjoyed reading and enjoyed writing so much growing up, but had a different kind of appreciation because you knew the power of a book because books were often banned when you were trying to read them or trying to enjoy them. How did your relationship with what a book even feels like in your hands?

Hisham Matar (00:36:15):

Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (00:36:16):

Contribute. How did that contribute to your motivation to write your family's story, your story name, the names that you did, even as, I mean, it doesn't feel like the war is over. And when you published the return in 2017, it definitely wasn't. So how did your relationship with books and reading in that way allow you the courage or gift you the courage that you had to do what you did?

Hisham Matar (00:36:53):

I mean, books were always, well, first of all, I wasn't really that great of a reader. When I was young, I read poetry. I didn't read novels unless I had to for school. I really only fell in love with novels when I was 19, the year, the month that I lost my father. And I remember that very clearly. I remember being in the arms of a novel feeling that I remember really being so gripped and that it became a host, a very hospitable host, and really deepened from there on. Before then, I only really read poetry. I thought, that's really the literature, that's what I thought. And it's a great thing,

Noor Tagouri (00:37:53):

A lot of poetry because I think that,

Hisham Matar (00:37:54):

So we had a very good library at home. We had a very good library. And my parents, somehow poetry was a very important thing. And I had an uncle who was a very good poet. So there were these dinner parties that usually in the end, someone will recite a poem. No, you, you're shaking your head the dinner party. And I loved the images and I was the kid, sounds like you were too. I was the kid in them where whenever a poem was read, I was secretly thinking, please don't stop. So I recognize that. And just to back the back up a little bit, I was also very early on acquainted with the fact that books are complicated, dangerous things. So I remember for example, when Gaddafi sent, the Libyan dictator sent these, it's actually quite an interesting moment. It's a complicated moment because he sent these young military kids, really, who, nobody's they, they're, it's not their idea.

(00:39:03):

He sent them to cleanse the bookshops and gave them a list of all these books. So basically everything was collected and put in the square and lit up. And I'm always, I don't know, I'm always fascinated by those boys who did it. So I was thinking, because I remember there was a kind of thrill. I mean, there is a thrill when you're young to burning things. I suppose there's right, but also it was clear in other words that they weren't I ideologically driven, they were just sort of following a thing. And it was probably a day where they didn't have to do something else that was less pleasant or they were out and about. So, but this idea that you would send kids or young conscripts to bookshops and take books and burn them. And then later on, when we lived in Cairo, my father's favorite bookshop, when we would go there, the man Al always the book seller, knew my father.

(00:40:06):

And so there would be this ritual, we would arrive. And I was a kid, I just enjoyed being with my dad, but I'm sort of, they're talking and I go around and look at books and they'd have a coffee. And then there would always come a moment when the book seller would lean over to my dad and say, shall we go upstairs now? And my dad said, would say, yes, yes, let's do that. And we'll go out of the bookstore to the next door building, go upstairs to this flat, very high ceilings in the old parts in Cairo, very high ceilings. And you could imagine every room is covered in books. And these were the band books. These were the books that the sensor wouldn't allow. And you'd be surprised what's there. I mean, it's the sort of books you and I would have on our shelf.

(00:40:57):

It's not very clear. Why is Milan condura censored by the Egyptian censor? I had no idea, or not all of his books, just that one testaments portrayed, which is a book that I don't know. I have no idea. There's no logic or not an apparent logic. I remember for example, when Manif published his trilogy, what is it called? Days of Salt, I think about Saudi Arabia, that moment, Saudi Arabian novelist, very interesting novel about that moment when modernity enters the country and the conflict between traditions and modernity. And it was banned in Saudi Arabia and was, I don't remember if it was banned in Egypt, but I remember the thrill of it when I was published and we're going to the bookshop and getting the copy and my father disappearing in his study for three days. You couldn't speak to him cause he had to read this trilogy.

(00:41:57):

He loved manif. And then I also remember being sent to the bookshop to get something else. And then finding these limousines that turn up from the Saudi embassy and these Saudi officials, diplomats, I don't know, addressed in traditional robe, walking out at night with sunglasses on and going to the bookshop and walking out with bags and bags of that book in black plastic bags, which is what people bought vodka. You've tried sort of to hide the right. So these were all very early experiences that brought it home to me very vividly, that books are actually quite interesting, complicated, possibly dangerous things. And then when my father disappeared, his library became a very important place for me. I would go and read his books and read the books that were in the library. And then Reed, he fell in love with novels. I remember very much from 19 to 25, those were the years of very hot reading. I read a lot of books. And there were lived in central London in the West End National Gallery is free to enter. And so I would go there and look at paintings. And on the way there, chair and Crossroad has all of these old, then now a lot of them closed secondhand bookshops where you could buy a book for a pound or so. I bought a lot of books and read a lot in that time, and I discovered things I didn't know. But the most exciting moments is when I found myself in these books.

(00:43:59):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (00:44:03):

Well, actually aside a little side reflection, so having had that experience, do you have any thoughts on the fact that books are being banned in the United States now or attempting to be banned?

Hisham Matar (00:44:17):

Yeah, I think soon. Well, I think first of all, as soon as a book is banned or people are enliven by the need to ban books, that's always a warning sign. That's always, that's a symptom of an ill moment. And so that's, I think very important to register that and then know how to engage with it and why is it happening? And it's also a moment, so it's a system, a symptom of a bad time, but it's also a moment where somebody wants to impose their authority. All attacks against books are usually to do with power, almost always.

(00:45:11):

And I've always found that interesting because on some level you think, why is a dictatorship, when we're talking about the Libyan example, why is a dictatorship concerned about books mean how many people read? And it's not like haven't seen people walk out on the street and say, I've just read Doki now I want a revolution. So it's almost a mystery to me. Why would you want to put writers in prison? Why so they're not that dangerous. But actually they're deeply dangerous because one of the things that a novel does is that it suspends authority. It's not very clear where the power is, right? Novels are usually about contested spaces. They're enliven by contradictions. We are drawn closer to characters, men and women who are running against their own hearts who don't know what the right answer is. And if you want to impose an authoritative narrative, whether as a dictator or as some dogmatic, extreme bureaucrat in some city in America wanting to ban in books in schools.

(00:46:26):

And so then you are actually wanting to impose a narrative and say, this is the way. It also, I think signals a very deep anxiety, almost, I want to say a trauma, but almost an anxie, an anxiety on the behalf of the person who wants to ban it. There's a very good writer called Adam Phillips. He writes these very thoughtful essays that are, they're thinking on the page. And he has this essay, I think it's called On Self-Criticism. And your readers can read it. I think it's in the London Review of books, don't think it's behind a paywall. It's a very interesting essay. And in it, he thinks about that voice that many of us, maybe all of us have. I certainly do The voice in your head that says, oh, you're not good enough. Or that when you drop something say, oh, you idiot, that voice.

(00:47:34):

And he sort of think, he takes that voice seriously, really thinks about it. And one of the things that he says, he says, well, it's very clear that that voice exists in the aftermath of some terrible event that they're sort of traumatized by something. And then he says, imagine meeting that voice in a party. I mean, the first thing you might think is that they're very boring, that they're very anxious. And I think of that when we think about banning books, because I think it is whoever is doing the banning exists in the aftermath of some terrible event.

Noor Tagouri (00:48:12):

Well, that's also very empathetic of you to think, to consider, to give context, to make the person the banner a human who might have their own anxieties or who need for control.

Hisham Matar (00:48:27):

Of course, they're not just a human, they're my brother and my sister. This is what I meant by the complexity of this inheritance have that Virginia Wolf is my sister, but Gaddafi is also my brother, and Hitler is my brother, and Bach is my brother. I mean, that's a very complicated situation, very complicated. And not in some abstract sense. I say the word brother or sister,

Noor Tagouri (00:48:56):

How do you say it?

Hisham Matar (00:48:57):

In a very direct sense. I mean, they are literally my fellow human beings. We belong to the same culture, tradition, roots, all of us. I really do believe that our equality to me isn't an abstraction. It's a lived experience.

Noor Tagouri (00:49:22):

That's an interesting reflection because what came to mind when you said that was that my original question had been about how did you decide that you were going to write this book with everyone's names and the truth and the truth, ist truth that you could, yeah. And all I heard, as you were saying that is it's all loving. You wrote this book lovingly. You were speaking to people who agreed with you, people who didn't agree with you, people who harmed you, people who oppressed you people. And it's still coming from almost a loving kinship.

Hisham Matar (00:50:01):

It's very interesting. You should say that. It's very interesting because the word love is, see, I've learned that in my first book in the Country of Men, which is a novel set in Tripoli at a very interesting moment in the late 1970s because that's the moment when the Qaddafi regime having exhausted the goodwill that it benefited from in the beginning, starts to do what all dictator ships need to do, which is find new enemies, rejuvenate the passions of its followers. And I've always wanted to set a novel at that moment because it was genuinely a moment of national psychosis.

(00:50:46):

But then there's a scene, there's a moment based on historical event where more than once, sadly, where people were called to come to the stadium, in this case it was a newly built basketball stadium, state of the art thing. And they come into the stadium and then they don't know why. So they're called to come to the stadium, they think there's a celebration. So they come, men, women, children, they all go there and the stadium is, all the gates are all locked once they're in. And then it's very quickly becomes clear what's going to happen, summary trial of a dissident who's pulled, weeping onto the court and then is hung from the basketball thing. And that's a moment of national psychosis because everybody's traumatized by it and nobody wants to talk about it. No one talks about it in Libya. Nobody talks about it. They talk about it only within family settings, but no one has ever written about it.

(00:51:54):

And I remember when I wrote that scene in the novel in the country of men, I remember the day, I remember we were living in a place that there was a garden and there was a little shed in the garden, and I would ride in the shed and it was a sunny day. And after I finished, I went up to the bathroom, take a shower, and the shower was beside a window. The sun is streaming in late afternoon, sun streaming in the water was hot. And yet I was shivering under the water because I realized I had crossed a line, I had written something that no one has written bef about before. And this sort of thing can get me into a lot of trouble. And those moments of knowing how to navigate these moments of what is allowed and what's not allowed. But the question of love is very important because as I wrote that scene, which I remember, it was charred into my mind from seeing it o on television because not only those people are in the stadium, but it was televised.

(00:53:11):

And Qaddafi regime was very clever in using the television as a way to enter the house. And so I don't mean here to focus on the Qaddafi regime, I'm talking more about how power works, but also when I wrote that scene, I had to be the executor and the executor. I had to be the noose. I had to find a way to, if you want to write it properly, I'm not saying I did, I made an attempt at it, but that was the intention. And so love here is the kind of love that I think we are implying, the very active, serious, complicated love where you want to, not the love of approval of course, but the love that wants to really understand and with the return. This was on a very personal level because the return focuses on events that are very intimate, obviously to my life. It's when I returned to Libya after 33 years of being away and trying to find answers to the question that had dominated my life since I was 19, which is what happened to my father, where is he?

(00:54:43):

Might, his remains be, what were the final hours, et cetera, all these questions. But to engage with the places and the people that I love, there was a lot of pleasure and joy and I found with it, I learned that first of all, this is not a book. This is not a book anyone would want to write because no one wants to go to those places. I don't want to go to those places where I think about what were the might have happened to my father, what were the final moments? I mean, that's not something I want to think about. It's certainly not on the page and preferably not at all if I can help it.

(00:55:35):

But it was a book that had a deep paradox in it. There was that, I don't want to do this, I don't want to be there. But the book itself was a gift. And I really think your books are your fate. Maybe just like your podcasts are your fate, your paintings are your fate that you know, can't choose them really. I mean, you could choose not, I could choose not to write it, but I don't feel like I have this sort of array of books and I can, now, which one do I want to do next? It's not like that. I feel it really does capture me. But this book had such broad appetites. I really do think a book comes with its character, it comes with its appetites, with its likes and dislikes. Sometimes the book wants you to do things that you are not keen on or you want to do things that the book is not keen on.

(00:56:41):

And it stiffens up a bit like when you turn up to a party and you didn't read the note about what you were supposed to be wearing. And it's the book too kind of stiffens up. So it has its own soul. Yes, it does. And its own voice and color and register and tempo. And this book, it was just this incredible horse. So I used to ride horses when I was young. It was a big part of my life. And I remember the moment when you get on a horse that's better than you, that it's got just better than you and you need to figure out a way how to handle it. And this felt like that. It just always was egging me on. It always, it was like, we want to have these different registers. We are going to have the journalistic register, and then we're going to have the vernacular one, and then we are going to do the landscape thing and then we're going to do the philosophical one, reflections, intimate family, friendship, love, all of it.

(00:57:42):

We're going to do all of it. Politics, we're going to do all of it. And I was like, okay, alright, I'll try to keep up. And so really as well as being so difficult to be in those spaces that was taking me, I felt so lucky and I felt like I was really handed this incredible gift of a book that was so rich and structurally so complex, the way it handled time. It's a book that pre ambulates, the present moment is very short. It's only about a week of it. You can write it in 12 pages if you want, but every step forward conjures up the past. And so it's always perambulating in this way. And structurally, architecturally was so rich, so intricate that it attended to all of the things that I liked and headed to poetry and philosophy to architecture, to the social gesture of who said what and a bit of humor and a bit of tragedy.

(00:58:57):

And it had all of those things. So I didn't really intend to write it. I went to visit, I didn't want to write anything. I didn't want to commit to anything. I kept a diary. David Remnick at the New Yorker magazine wanted me to write about it and wanted my wife, Diana, who's a photographer to photograph. And he thought this would make a beautiful piece. And we both thought maybe, let's see what happens. And David knows me and he's a wonderful editor, but he, he's a marvelous editor. And proof of that is that he really knows what will facilitate, what will make it easier for his writer. And in this case, he knew me and he knew that letting me go without any commitment was exactly the right thing to do. And I came back and didn't write for two, three months, didn't write a word.

(01:00:03):

Writing is a thing I do every day. It's part of my life. And it was totally gone. I didn't even write emails or anything. I didn't write at all. I didn't write. And I thought, fine, because I've never had a kind of careerist commitment to writing. I just want to be true. I want to do the thing that is true. I don't want to write a book that didn't need to be written just to whatever it is to satisfy my career. And so I thought, maybe I'll do something. I'll go back to architecture, maybe I'll fancy sculpture that I'll have a go at that, a baker, I'm a very good baker. Maybe I'll open a bakery. I really was thinking those things. And I went to visit a dear friend of mine who lives in the Piedmont in North Italy. And this guy is very, dunno how to describe it.

(01:00:55):

He really knows how to enjoy life. He really, he's just food and nature and just had, so I enjoyed the sort of lushness of his company. And maybe in that setting I thought, well, let me look at the, I brought my diaries with me, the Libyan diaries with me, and I thought, let me read them. I hadn't read them for these three months, so I thought, this is very good. I've sort of almost forgotten about them. I thought I'll read them as though they belong to someone else and see what happens. And I didn't go beyond the second sentence. And I just lifted those two sentences and I put them on a page. And I thought, if this were to be the beginning of a book, what would be the third sentence? And I wasn't thinking of writing a memoir or a novel or wasn't thinking of those things, say books to me are structures.

(01:01:52):

So I thought, I'll, I'll just start. Okay, I'll write the next sentence in the next sentence. And before I knew it, I had about 5,000 words. And the 5,000 words, I hadn't arrived to Libya in them. I was still in the airport. So I sent them to David and he said, great, give me another 5,000 because the piece was supposed to be around 5,000. So I wrote another 5,000 and it ends when I literally land in Libby, not much else happens. And that was the piece that was published in the New Yorker. He then told me, you realize this is a book. And he said this at the same time as my dear and much missed friend and publisher, Susan Campbell, who passed away in 2019 and broke many other writer's hearts. She's a very special editor, very special woman. And she read it on a flight.

(01:02:55):

I sent it to her. Same time I sent her to David, she read it on a flight. Ironically, I was in New York and she was flying from New York to London for work. And she landed London and called me and she said, this is a book. So those two people who are very, Susan, particularly very close to my work in a very deep way, somebody I trust, I that confirmed the instinct that I had. First person that told me it was a book was myself. The second person was Diana, who's a great reader. Diana's a very important part of the story because yeah, because Diana in a way, Diana's a very well, she's a marvelous artist and very seriously committed to her work in ways that I've learned a lot from.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:46):

Can I ask when you guys met, how old were you when you guys met?

Hisham Matar (01:03:48):

I was 26, 27 I think when we met. Okay. Yeah. And so we have been married for 24 years. And her approach to work is so rigorous and thoughtful and deep that I've learned so much from her. And she, and I don't know, we haven't figured out why this is the case, but we become pregnant around the same time and we deliver around the same time. So we have these projects that extend for a long period of time. And for some reason they're always like now her book, she's printing her book in the summer and my book is going to go to the press around that same time. And it's just, these are books that hers, she's been working on for six years, mine for three or four years.

Noor Tagouri (01:04:42):

So how does your energy intertwine in the process of both of you creating? Are you feeding off of each other? Does her being in her work mode energize you and vice versa?

Hisham Matar (01:04:54):

Yes. We work separately. She has a studio and I have my studio. So when we are working, we're not in the same space, but our conversations, we have a lot of conversations about one or another's work. I'm the first person that sees her work. She's the first person that sees my work. And we read, we attend to one another's work very seriously and very closely. And we have the sort of conversations that you can't have really with anyone else. Moments in the evening when there's a very particular detail that you are working with or you're wondering about and you want to hear yourself, just hearing yourself describe it is useful. But also receiving really sensitive insights. And also I think in a wider sense, not just on the work, but in our lives as artists that share a life together, that our engagement with other works of art, with how to live, how to be present in the world.

(01:06:01):

Those things I think are also very rich for me, at least for both of us. But with The Return, Diana beat me to it. Diana started a very important work where she was thinking about the evidence of my father's disappearance. She's never met him, but she has all of his evidence around her, myself, of course, my family, the house, his things, his books, his pocket squares or ties. And she is acquainted with all of that. And most vividly and importantly, his absence. And so you would think, well, there's nothing to photograph here. Literally, there is nothing to photograph because he's not here. But then she produces this photographic work that is incredible and it's very evocative and sensitive. And what's powerful about it is that it's inspired, starts with my father, but then goes beyond him. And she goes and photographs places in Rome. Rome is the one European city where quite a number of Libyan dissidents were assassinated.

(01:07:30):

And she would find the nearest tree to where someone was assassinated and she would photograph it in this very haunting way because the tree was there. Then it was a witness. And then she would go to places in Libya where political prisoners were held and she would photograph those. Now she really went right into the dark spaces and try to illuminate them with her camera and produce this wonderful project called Evidence, toured around museums around the world and is held in many collections. And this book called Evidence. And she did all of that before I even started writing the return. So I could see from her example, she was sort of lighting a torch in front of me and saying, not deliberately, I mean, she was doing it because it was a work that she wanted to make. I don't mean that she was making it for me, not at all. She was making it out of her own independence. But she showed me as an artist, as a fellow artist, and as my wife, o o, of how one might engage with the unspeakable because this experience of what happened to my father is unspeakable. It's, it's impossible to describe. And she showed me how it's exactly the impossibility. That's interesting. It's exactly the things that we don't know. And The Return delves into these spaces of darkness, the spaces where there is no information and tries to fill them with the imagination, with remembrance. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:16):

I love the picture that you just painted with Diana, and I'm so grateful that you got to share the way that she held that light for you, because I can feel it. Even in the brief mentions that you wrote about her, you mentioned her presence is very strong throughout the entire thing. 

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I WANT TO SHARE A QUICK GOOD DEED OPPORTUNITY WITH YOU…AS YOU MAY KNOW, MY FAMILY HAS BEEN RUNNING THE ISEEYOU FOUNDATION SINCE I WAS IN MIDDLE SCHOOL. AT ISEEYOU WE WORK TO ALLEVIATE LOCAL HOMELESSNESS AND SUPPORT COMMUNITY MEMBERS IN NEED BY CREATING AND DISTRIBUTING WINTER CARE PACKAGES, FAMILY FOOD BAGS, GROCERY GIFT CARDS AND RUNNING OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY PANTRY. ONE FAMILY FOOD BAG IS COSTS ABOUT $35, AND YOU CAN SPONSOR ONE OR MORE BAGS NOW BY CONTRIBUTING! OUR VENMO IS @ISYFOUNDATION THAT’S ALSO OUR INSTAGRAM IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT THERE, OUR PAYPAL IS CONTACT@ISYFOUNDATION. ORG, WHICH IS ALSO OUR WEBSITE! THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO LISTEN AND SUPPORT. NOW, BACK TO HISHAM! 

Hisham Matar (00:13):

You know what I told you about the connection between evidence and The Return. I don't think I've ever said that before in this exact way. I've alluded to it, but not like this before, so

Noor Tagouri (00:27):

Well we're honored that you shared that with us. Yeah, it's a beautiful reflection and I can't wait for Diana to hear it. So the unspeakable,

(00:43):

I want to talk about this because this is what's really been on my heart lately. There's the unspeakable, the unfathomable, what our brains physically cannot comprehend. And I think that that's really what has been disturbing me and my dad who grew up in Benghazi and was a witness to the hangings on the university campus who I interviewed during Rep. And when I told him that I still had a responsibility to fact check some things that he had said, and he got emotional. What do you mean this is what's happened to us? He actually had me call Amo Hussein Shafei who I think you mentioned in the book with not by name, but potentially the person who was the cooker, the chef,

Hisham Matar (01:41):

Right? Last name. I thought so. Yeah, I thought so. Listening to when

Noor Tagouri (01:44):

I read it, I was like,

Hisham Matar (01:45):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:47):

Yeah. And I remember when I interviewed him, he had this also this life and this vigor of, and this confidence in sharing and speaking on the unspeakable. And something that you wrote as well was that to be Libyan is to have many questions. And I think that as someone who is of the younger Libyan generation or the Libyan American generation, I've only been to Libya twice and I was very young and there's this weird thing of bicultural identity. I'm not all the way American, I'm not all the way to Libya, and I'm something in between. But you piece together that identity with the stories of your family. But something that consistently comes up too, is that it's taken me several years to extract the stories of my family. And the reason The Return shook me so much specifically is because, so in our family, my grandmother, my grandmother's brother, my great uncle's brother Khalo [inaudible] has been missing for decades as well.

(03:07):

And he was a pilot for Gaddafi. And there's pieces to the puzzle of he had witnessed or overheard or saw an interaction or an arms exchange that had happened and he was young, and then one day he left on a job and he never came home. And so it, I've heard traces of that story and then traces of the 1986 bombing in the aftermath of that. And I've seen, but more than hearing the traces of the story themselves, I've seen what that trauma looks like and what that hope looks like in my own family members, in my grandmother, in who every conversation that I have, I piece together a little bit until it's too much for her. If I feel like it's too much for her or she'll tell me straight up, I can't talk about this anymore. And my grandfather, who also went through traumatic instances of, I just found out because I had dreamt of a little girl who had told me what her name.

(04:12):

She told me her name. I see a lot of my family and my dreams. So I kind of also have been piecing together. And I noticed that you also have had those experiences. And it was because of that. I ended up asking my family about it. And I had learned that my grandfather had a little sister who had died in the caves during the Italian occupation when they were hiding from them. And no, not even my grandmother had known about this. And it's like my grandfather, he doesn't speak anymore. He doesn't, he's very silent. And it's, I have this burning thing inside of me of I'm trying to document, I'm trying to piece together the stories of our families so that we can also just better understand who we are and who we come from and what is is our culture, what is our identity.

(05:01):

And I had brought it up. We had a really, our first really big family reunion this last summer, and I was interviewing all of the elders, and every time I was asking them questions, it came back to the resistance or what they did when they got to Amika to continue fighting for liberation. And my aunt came and whispered in my ear and said, try to get them to talk about something that isn't political, just about themselves. And so I attempted and my uncle grabbed Mike. He came up and he said, well, the reason that we can't do that is because our entire lives have been this, their entire life has been this fight from the moment that they came into the world until now, that's what has been on their mind. And it's like, it's really difficult to articulate, but I can feel it in my heart when your identity is shaped by an oppressor or by politics or it's been stripped away and it's kind of banning books, but it's banning identity.

(06:07):

It's banning your story, your own stories until they're constantly replaced with the fight. And so beautifully asked questions and shared feelings that have happened inside of your body, of what it's like to search for answers about what happened to your father. And I, I sobbed a lot of while reading, because I felt like I was hearing my own family member's words about their own missing brother or their own difficulty until now, still having hope that maybe he's still alive. And I don't know if it's like, I don't have to try to philosophize if it's a cultural thing or for whatever it is, but it's just like how do we begin to digest the unspeakable so that we can still document it so that the stories don't get lost?

Hisham Matar (07:15):

I mean, obviously this book would mean something much more intimate, I think, to a Libyan who has suffered some of these events. But what's been striking about it is that I've had a lot of people, I've had things happen with this book that have been really quite interesting. Yeah, I've had lots of people in Korea. The Korean publisher, my Korean publisher, wanted me to write an introduction to the Korean edition

(07:58):

For the Korean reader. And I said to her, why? And she said, because it's obvious and like a fool. I said, what is obvious? She said, well, lots of people here have disappeared. So there were together, and now they're not because the country has been divided. And I've had very similar things from Argentina, obviously because of the disappeared in Argentina, Lebanon, another country with the disappeared. So there there's been those responses, which you could somehow, now in hindsight, you can say, well, that's kind of predictable. But then I've had things like when I'd be signing books at the end of an event, there will always be with the return, there will always be a hand, two or three, usually men, middle-aged men like me, sort of in their forties, fifties, sixties in that range, who would leave me a letter, a sealed envelope with no return address. And they'll say, please read it later. In every event, I'd have one or two, maximum three would do this. And I'd take the train back to wherever I'm going, and I'll open the envelope and it'll be a letter for someone telling me about his relationship with his father. And a lot of these letters belong to men who have lived with their fathers who did not suffer exile. But there was something about

(09:51):

The loss of one's father, regardless how commonplace the circumstances are or extraordinary as are. There was something shared and those that meant so much to me because I think one of the things that I am, that I am careful about is I don't want the strangeness and idiosyncrasy of the details of the experience to be either done away with or to dominate. I want them to connect to the deeper reservoir of human emotions, to do with, do with memory, to do with the past is in the present. And how do we move on from here, given everything that has happened,

Noor Tagouri (10:48):

What does moving on look like to you? What does that mean? Because when I ask my dad every single time, I say, well, what did you do? How do you process this? How do you process what you got? I move on, I move on, I move on. And I don't think I understand what that means because I don't think it's possible to just move on and let go. It's always in you.

Hisham Matar (11:15):

Yes. I mean, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I mean in the sense that I think

(11:22):

My commitment to the present is very serious. I think this moment is to be treated with great care and presence of mind. I am very interested in everything that has happened. I am not interested in it dominating me. For the longest time, my father Wasright at the center, and I would be hovering around him, searching for him. My whole life was organized. Now I can see my whole life was organized around this. And I thought, and I write about this in the return that I thought that's what genuine fidelity is. And I found out it's not that, well, first of all, fidelity has to be exploded. You have to look at it in a much broader sense, fidelity to who and to what.

(12:26):

I spent half my life looking, my F, looking for my father. I'm still looking for his remains now. But I'm not as haunted or dominated by the task anymore. And something extraordinary has happened. I'm now at the center and my father is on the margins, and he is very pleased with that. And what's very strange is he's more vivid to me than he was when I put him in the middle. So I am, and that has just gi given everything that I do, everything that I do, more power, more force. And so I think if you are us, come from places that are very complicated and you grow up in a house that has really been exposed to the flames of the troubles of these places. And you have people around you whom you love more than anything, but who are deeply affected by this, and you've grown with the inheritance of their grief and you want to put it to right, because you're young and you have energy and you think you can remake the world, and you should definitely have a go at it.

(13:50):

If you have grown up in that situation, it stands the risk of cramping the muscles of your imagination towards the past. And it makes you forget that the present is actually what's really incredible. It's the fact that all of this has happened and we are here. That is really magical. So I really think this turning towards the, I describe in the book this reoccurring dream I used to have where I would appear to myself as deformed, and my face is, my head is turned and my face, face is backwards. It's very vivid, obviously dream. But this turning your face forward and facing forward is not a betrayal of the past. It's actually, it dignifies everything that has happened. Yeah,

Noor Tagouri (14:46):

I also, I had this overwhelming feeling as soon as you, that which when you said, and your father likes it better this way because I feel maybe it's also because you're finally giving him the space to show up as your father, rather than the roles reversed. And so when you put yourself at the center, he gets to be the father presence that that is no longer victimized. Yeah. He's actually fully the hero.

Hisham Matar (15:17):

Yes, absolutely. But also even one step after that, it becomes creative. My father used to have a really, it's a really lovely idea about what a conversation is, right? Because he spotted when I was young, when I was about 12, I was obsessed with debate and I was this annoying kid that would debate the hell out of everything. And I was very good at it. I would beat men, adults, and I was very, very good at it. And my father could see my pleasure, the pleasure that I took in it. He both admired my abilities, but he also could see the pleasure and he didn't like it. And he told me something. He said, listen, when you put someone in a corner, and I said, yeah, no, like what it's like. So when you put 'em in a corner, he says, back up, give them a graceful way to come out and told me about the French roots of the word debate is to beat someone with something, right?

(16:20):

Wow. So he says, what if debate isn't actually you beating me with your idea? What if conversation is as follows? You put forward your proposition and I'll put forward mine. I will defend my proposition and argue for it for a bit not too long. And you do the same. And then after that, we turn them around and you adopt mine and I adopt yours. And then once we're done with that together collaboratively, so it's not a competition, we go off and find a third proposition that neither of us knew and a fourth one and a fifth one. So conversation as a generative. So I think this

Noor Tagouri (17:03):

Is a very, very good take on debate practice in general,

Hisham Matar (17:07):

But also I think of it also in terms of what we're talking about, of how do we relate to the past. Yeah. You and I now have come up with several propositions of how to relate to it, but maybe we can find in ourselves the energy and the creative will to go and search for other possibilities of how to relate to the past. That in other words, how to relate to the past is never fixed. It's always open for investigation. Right.

Noor Tagouri (17:34):

So what is your

(17:35):

Relationship with our complicated inheritance now?

Hisham Matar (18:15):

What is my, I think, no, I think the trouble with answering that question is defining the word our, because it depends on what context you see it. Because I think something else you and I share, and thankfully it's becoming more and more commonplace. We are engaged with different cultures, we're touched by different languages. And certainly when I was young, that was represented a kind of, it seemed to me often as though it were a problem, as though it was something I needed to resolve. I am a Libyan writing in English,

Noor Tagouri (19:03):

Right?

Hisham Matar (19:05):

That's an issue. And I need to resolve it. It's a problem. Or that I live here and all of these various contradictions that happen with people who move and live elsewhere. But now, for me, actually, I don't feel that these things exist in contradiction at all. I think it's actually very interesting that I am Libyan and I write in English. Yeah. It's not that it's more interesting than me writing in German or in Arabic, but it's just interesting. So fostering a kind of curiosity towards these things that isn't a narcissistic curiosity to do with, oh, it's me, how unique? No, but a genuine curiosity towards it is something that I'm interested in. So for me right now is a very rich place. Our for me is, and abk and Dante and Shakespeare and Virginia Wolf and Prust and so on and so on and so on by sala. And so many hours become an it. It's expanded. And our is also, of course, in a very specific sense, Libyan, but also I've lived in London for the majority of my life. I'm now 53, and I've lived the last 36 years of my life in London. And I have a very deep passionate relationship with that city. Not always easy.

(20:44):

So that's our too for me. Yeah. That's also mine. Yeah. So I, I've want to give you a sense that I am somehow this person who's at ease with all of these contradictions, but I think more often than not, I'm curious and grateful. Those are the two most consistent sort of things. I think it was Spinoza, he has this idea about, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was him who has it, or if it wasn't, I attribute it to him. Spinoza is one of the few philosophers in my view who wrote very well. Sentences are pleasing to read. Schopenhauer for me is wonderful writer, but very few philosophers. Plato of course, but very few philosophers write in a way that you can enjoy it as literature. And I hope I'm not offending philosophers, but Spinoza had this idea that you measure your intelligence, not by at least the way I remember it, not by how many things or how quick you are to figure out the answer, but your intelligence is the health and vitality of your curiosity, the more you want to know. So that to me, for me, is what I try to foster towards all of this.

Noor Tagouri (22:08):

I mean, because I think curiosity allows you to be a witness and an observer to the human experience that you're having rather than a victim to it.

Hisham Matar (22:17):

Yes.

Noor Tagouri (22:19):

And I feel like from that place, we see so much more clearly. Thank you so much. Okay. So I have two more things. One is, can you tell us anything about your upcoming book?

Hisham Matar (22:33):

I would love to tell you about my upcoming book. It's a book that's been with me for a long time. I thought since 2012, because immediately after the events in Libya and in Egypt and Tunisia and Bahrain, I thought, I want to write a book about friendship and about these three friends, three Libyan friends in London who start at the same place and end up in a completely different place. And I just didn't know how to do it. And I felt it was too soon to write about those events. And a couple years ago, the British Museum invited Diana and I to do an exhibition, and they wanted me to collect Diana's work. So they wanted her to bring sketchbooks for evidence for the book evidence. And they wanted me to use the collection to do a display around the return. I'd never been asked to do this by a museum before.

(23:33):

And so I went into my archive to find what sketches, images that I notes from the time that I was working on, on the return. And I found an envelope on the back of the envelope from 2003 when Diana and I lived in Paris. And on the back of the envelope, I had written three sentences about a book that I, one day one to write. No. And it's this book that I've just finished. No. So I thought I had the idea in 2012, but I think for a very long time I wanted to write a book about male friendship in particular. You love that. These one, my favorite topics. So it's called My Friends.

Noor Tagouri (24:43):

The concept of male friendships is something that we talk about all the time now, and I think that we need more people talking about it and more stories around it.

Noor Tagouri (25:04):

And what does it come out?

Hisham Matar (25:05):

Comes out in January. Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (25:09):

Okay. And the way that we like to wrap up is just kind of a fill in the blank. So this statement, if you really knew me, you would know, and you can do one, two, or three things.

Hisham Matar (25:24):

I mean, the fun thing is that I am such a good cook.

Noor Tagouri (25:29):

I love that you keep bringing that up and it's just like somebody want, does anybody want to invest in this bakery?

Hisham Matar (25:34):

No. No. I don't want anybody, I don't want to do it for work, but I'm just really a good cook. I mean, it's really embarrassing, but I really think I'm a really great cook.

Noor Tagouri (25:44):

Why is that embarrassing?

Hisham Matar (25:46):

Because it's, well, first of all, it cannot be objective, but I enj, it's something I really enjoy and I love cooking for. What is your favorite thing to make people I love, and I love a very long dinner party where it just takes, there's like six courses. I love that sort of stuff. And I think about it, and when we invite friends or family, and part of my brain the whole afternoon is designing the meal, and I go to the market and I find I'm a market cook is the best way to describe it. So you're your mother's son? I look at, yeah, exactly. I look at what's fresh and what's what I feel like, and I am improvising all the time. I never cook from books. I've been taught by very good cooks by mother's family are just amazing. And certain friends who are like this friend I mentioned in Italy who are just very good cooks. And so I love an evening together in the kitchen with friends, to me is something I enjoy. So that's something you would know about me. What else?

Noor Tagouri (27:00):

You have to give me one meal. What's Diana's favorite meal that you make?

Hisham Matar (27:04):

Well, it changes because it depends. I'm not very good at repeating things, but, well, the other day I made hab, libi, and then really likes that, and I basically nail it. Classic, no humidity. See, this is why it's embarrassing. It's very embarrassing. If you're going to, I make pasta. Nobody else makes pasta from

Noor Tagouri (27:30):

From scratch, obviously

Hisham Matar (27:31):

The whole thing, or not from scratch, whatever you like. A good roast for

Noor Tagouri (27:37):

You, for yourself when you're sad, like your comfort food?

Hisham Matar (27:45):

No, if I am sad that I want to cheer myself by cooking, I want to cook for others, the thing that secretly horrified me. Yeah, tell me, this is something else you need to know about me. Is that when you go out with, say, say somebody's cooked something amazing and you're all sitting to eat and someone eats it and there's absolutely no, nothing changes about them. That to me really disturbs me. I cannot trust them. On some level, I think something is wrong, something that's, have

Noor Tagouri (28:18):

You ever called anybody out for doing that?

Hisham Matar (28:20):

No, but I'm just in secretly in secret outrage is what I do. I'm very good at that.

Noor Tagouri (28:29):

I love it. Just have one more. If you really knew me. For us,

(28:32):

Those were

(28:33):

Really good ones.

Hisham Matar (28:37):

When I was a university student and I had no money and I fell in love with music, I discovered that I could sneak in to the second half of a concert for free. And so what I did, I had is this is a clandestine education in classical music. I would go to the bar because always in the bar you can have a glass of water for free, and you had to have on a shirt, try to look a bit smart and put a book, a very slim volume in. Your books are very important here, and you have your glass of water, you're reading your book, and you're totally immersed in this book. No one can tear you away from this book. They ring the bell. Third time, everybody's going up. You wait till most of them have gone up, and then you tail behind them reading the book.

(29:23):

Nobody likes to disturb a reading, man. Just read the book. And then you just sleep, walk into the auditorium, and you stand there and you're reading the book. You can't let it, can't look away from it, and then the lights come down and you sort of wake up and you look around and there's always an empty seat. The musicians love it because nobody likes an empty seat. And if you go to chamber music, which is what I did, you're not getting the second half of an opera or something. You're getting a full piece of music. And because you can't choose, beggars can be choosers in this. I had a very wide musical education and I just followed my instincts and I owe a huge debt to public libraries. Yes. Because yes, you know, could rent CDs out and so on. And so I just taught myself, followed my passion, but I was clandestine. Yeah. I did that for a good three years or two, three times a week I did that. Yeah. Well,

Noor Tagouri (30:22):

Maybe it's Libyan thing, because I'm really sad that my younger brother just had to leave because he is a wizard of being able to do exactly that. That is

Hisham Matar (30:32):

Now I'm not so good at it, but, well, I was good then.

Noor Tagouri (30:36):

He has taught us some good tips, and I love that that's how you got your musical education. Hisham. You've been so generous with your time, with your stories, with your truth. I know I started on gratitude, but I want to end with such sincere gratitude.

Hisham Matar (30:49):

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for this conversation. Thanks. And it's so nice to meet you.

Noor Tagouri (30:54):

It's great to meet you. Thank you.

*AD BREAK*

OUR EPISODE IS NOT OVER YET! THE DAY AFTER OUR CONVERSATION, HISHAM REACHED OUT SAYING HE HAD BEEN THINKING ABOUT WHEN I ASKED ABOUT MOVING ON…HE REFLECTED ON IT AND WANTED TO SHARE MORE..AND BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT HERE’S A LITTLE REMINDER TO LISTEN TO OUR WEBBY NOMINATED INVESTIGATIVE PODCAST “REP: A STORY ABOUT THE STORIES WE TELL.” WE DIG INTO MEDIA REPRESENTATION, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH STORIES, TRUTH, AND OBJECTIVITY…AND YOU CAN CONTINUE TO SUPPORT OUR WORK AT AT YOUR SERVICE BY FOLLOWING US ON INSTAGRAM, @AYS OR CHECKING OUT OUR WORK AND TRANSCRIPTS TO OUR PODCAST EPISODES AT AYS.MEDIA…OKAY…BACK TO HISHAM. 

Hisham Matar:

Noor!

Noor Tagouri:

Hisham!

Hisham Matar:

Kayf Halek? (How are you?)

Noor Tagouri (00:21):

I feel really clear today and I feel very grateful today. How are you?

Hisham Matar (00:28):

Oh, that's, that's very good. That's very good. Well, yeah, I enjoyed meeting you and Adam and Mohamed and Sarah, and you guys obviously are very, very, very special. So it was a pleasure. I just wanted to add something because I have been, something you said yesterday remained with me and I was thinking about it. So I forget how you framed the question, but something like, how does one move on and Right?

Noor Tagouri (01:36):

Yeah, I was referring to my dad talking about moving on and I was asking, what does that even look like? What does that really mean?

Hisham Matar (01:43):

Yes. Yeah. And I was really, it remained with me that question sort of echoing, cause I know I answered it, but there was more I wanted to say, and it had to do with

(02:01):

The fact that moving on must involve I think a gesture of expansion, by which I mean taking the specific facts of whatever event we're talking about here and connecting it to a much larger landscape of events and ideas and so on. And for example, I felt that it was always, there was a moment in my campaigning for the whereabouts of my father in the early days when I was young and consumed by the pain and urgency of it. I was focused primarily on my father. And that was fine, but it had the feeling of something growing in the wrong direction. And

Noor Tagouri (03:13):

Remember you actually writing about that and that's why when you reflected and you said, now you are at the center of the story and not your father. And I felt like I, I love that because you give him the opportunity to show up as a father. Because I remember you saying in the middle of the campaign, the more that you were publicly looking for him, the further away he felt.

Hisham Matar (03:40):

Yes, yes. That, that's analogous. I mean that's connected to what thinking about now, but it's not exactly the same thing because within the campaign, the moment things shifted was when we connected what was happening to my father, to so many other people, and we looked at structural causes. So it became less of a family story and more of something much broader that was looking at causality in a much larger sense. And I felt that a bit with listening to your podcast. It reminded me of that because obviously you do so well in looking at sort of cliched responses to Libyan, like the film that you mentioned and so on, things that sort of ease the ground for one country to go and bomb another country. And I think you do that very well. That's a very important conversation. And then you do extremely well in exposing the nature of the damage and the pain generationally on different generations in your family who all I felt spoke very eloquently about it.

(05:17):

And so you do all of that. Well, I felt, and then at the final episode, when you are speaking at Harvard and this unlikely event happens where there's somebody in the audience who happened to be there at the location of the, it's very powerful moment, but then it's there that I felt that things suddenly stopped evol evolving because then it stops being, it remains to be just a story about, or not just, but mainly a story about a family and about the relationship between this family's place of origin and their adopted country, the United States. And it remains there and I think mean that's all fantastic, but yesterday when we parted ways, and I had your question ringing in my ear about how does one move forward? I thought of that, I started thinking of your episodes and I thought one form, well, the short answer is I don't know how one moves forward, but in other words, I don't have a recipe for it.

(06:32):

But one possibility would be to connect those events, what happened in 86 and what happened to your family, to a much broader set of causes that have allowed that continue to our day to day that have allowed the United States to do that, not just in Livia and so many other places. And very recently under the Obama years with the drone attacks in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, an argument could be made that actually what happened in Libya in 1986 was the beginning. It wasn't the end. It was the beginning of a trend that has become not less acceptable, but far more acceptable because many, many more people have died in ways that your relatives have died. And so I felt this is basically my worry about the desire to find closure because the desire to find closure as well intentioned as it is, because nobody wants to live in suffering if closure means the end of suffering.

(07:51):

But oftentimes I feel the desire to find closure trumps the actual issues and therefore it inverts the story and makes it about us as individuals rather than about the broader picture. And I think that it's not an easy thing to do what I'm saying, but I think a heroic victory here would be to take the specific pain that has been dealt us and use it as an instrument to expose the wider structural maladies that have made that possible. I think about that a lot these days in America, particularly with question of police violence and how there's a real desire, I think, in America to explain these things away by only by problems of racism, which of course are endemic and exist. But I think there is a much more uncomfortable truth about the country to do. The fact that it has together with all of that is marvelous about us.

(09:00):

It has this brutal ability to be incredibly violent and to be able to kill innocent people at home and abroad, much more abroad, of course, in ways that are careless and should really shock everybody, right? Yeah. So I felt that those were some of the thoughts that were going in my head as we parted ways that I was walking at night to meet my friends. And this was on my mind that I was thinking, I must speak to Noor because these conversations happen in an instant, and yet they remain, no, they remain sort of working on us in some ways and unfolding. So yeah, that's why I wanted.

Noor Tagouri (09:55):

Wow. Well first of all, I'm honored that you were still thinking about the conversation afterwards because I absolutely was as well. And I think I still am processing all of it, and it means so much to me that you would shared what you just shared because I completely agree with you. And it's interesting because I'm so eager now for you to listen to the rest of the series because that was, that's essential. So the first and the last episodes are the personal, and then the middle of the series is taking that zoomed out effect of understanding how we got here structurally. And so the story of my family, it was only meant to be a very short example in an episode I called America's Greatest Export, which is this theory that America's greatest export is her story or American exceptionalism. And so we break that down.

(10:55):

I mean, the series is a story about the stories we tell. And so to me, something I think about a lot is to, in order to digest these structures or these cycles that continue, I feel like stories are how we can understand them. And that's why I think reading your work is so important to someone like me because you did that so beautifully with, I had never learned so much about Libyan history and Libyan culture until I read, read Your Work. And also understanding when the work compels you to ask what is the role that I'm playing in all of this? And I think that is, I know it's a really big task and an ongoing task to analyze the structures at play. And sometimes it can feel so overwhelming because it's like, well, what can I actually do about it? But the reality is there's always a role that we are playing in this, and I feel like reframing our stories or retelling or analyzing and interrogating our stories is my entry point.

(12:05):

It's how I want to do that. And it's interesting because after the Harvard talk, we didn't include this, but there was a woman who stood up and she was, I believe from, she was from Tibet, and she had shared that she wasn't even meant to be at the event. And she was so emotional and she felt like there was this anger that she had inside of her. And she asked this question of, but how do we even begin to tell these stories if we have so much anger inside of us? And to me it was like this, it's going through this healing process of being able to tell your story from a reflective place to really understand and analyze and almost regain authority of the pen to write your story. Because a lot of we're, we are talking about a people who, the reason your book is so radical is because we never hear this story from your point of view.

(13:08):

I mean of whenever you often hear the stories told from the oppressor. I mean, that's why we were talking about the banning of books in America, and especially when it comes to something like critical race theory. We are trying to control who gets to tell it. And you recognize the power of, even in the word, even in the book, even in the story, it's bigger than you and it doesn't belong to you. And I feel like that is maybe the weapon of choice in, I don't want to say destabilizing structures, but creating new paths. Because I feel like that to me is when I think of moving on, maybe it isn't trying to fit our footsteps in the footsteps of the past, but rather continuously pave a new one and then bring people along the way until we're able to, I guess, create the structure that feels more true to us, that feels more healing, that truly is of service.

(14:08):

And that's kind of how I've been thinking about it. And I love so much that you, you're bringing this up because that was what we spent investigating the last couple of years. But my entry point ended up becoming this personal story because I realized the pattern, which was that there, the Back to the Future episode had come out, then this attack had happened, this political attack had happened, and then it changed the way people thought. So throughout the, we call it the three Ps and rep, so it was politics, pop culture, and public opinion. And we kind of analyze that dynamic. And it's essentially a tool that you can use now when you're confused about why you feel a type of way about a story. Because there are always these cycles at play. And it's in understanding the stories that were being presented that I feel like we begin to almost discredit the structures that give them so much authority to begin with.

Hisham Matar (15:07):

And I think starting with the personal is very powerful to do that. Really, it's a very good choice. And to do it the way that you are saying, then you lead it into something much broader. I think that's very powerful. Also, right now, I think particularly nor because there's this sense of a fragmented narrative, right? Yeah. Isn't one story that we all share, we're all listening to something at a different time. We don't all watch the same thing at the same time. Yeah. There is no meeting places where we gather and congregate and exchange ideas. So I think it, it's very important.

Noor Tagouri (16:03):

There was the breakthrough that I had, I'll share this with you. It was such an interesting point in the journey because when I started Rep, I had had all 10 episodes planned out and I knew what it was going to be and all of this stuff. And then of course it took a turn, it took its own turn because I came across all of my great uncle's archive and I was like, wait, this, there's a bigger story. There's a bigger starting point, and what happens if we start with the personal and we work our way out? And so there was an episode, it's the fourth episode, it's called Shikata Ga Nai, which is Japanese. It translates, it's Japanese, and it translates, it cannot be helped. And a friend of mine who's a musician, he is also a Japanese American. And when he heard about my project, he was like, you should to need to talk to internment camp survivors, Japanese internment camp survivors.

(16:59):

And I was like, huh, why is that? Originally the project is supposed to be about Muslims and Arabs and representation, because that's the angle that I know and what I needed to interrogate for myself. And he had mentioned this, and I had had it on my heart as an intention

(19:39):

And then towards the end, this one woman who was actually there with her twin sister, she looked at me and she just said, actually, I've always empathized and related to Muslim Americans, actually. And whenever I marched with them too, and I was so taken aback, and I was like, why is that? And she said, because as soon as we heard President Trump saying certain, verbalizing certain rhetoric, it sounded familiar to us. And I knew what that meant for our community. And so I immediately related, and it was like her finally sharing these personal stories for the first time in this way, the zoomed out picture, it was at the very end of the interview, I understood why they needed to be a part of this process. And it was just constantly this zoom out of we are not the only ones. We are never the only ones in our stories.

(20:41):

And that's an interesting thing because after “REP” came out, I had so many people reach out about their own family members who had died in bombings. And it's so chilling because I Sure. Because it's like I, they're not numbers. And that's the thing that was so haunting. It was that there is no such thing as collateral damage. People are not numbers, and they have descendants. And we are the descendants who get to witness them and share their stories. And that's how I feel like we are able to actually process and digest the structures of power, because sometimes those structures are so big that our brains can't fully comprehend them. Sometimes the evil is so passionate and so strong, and it's confusing. It's so confusing. And I think especially when it's being done by people who look like you, who have similar names to you, it's really hard to actually understand or fathom it. And it isn't until the personal details are presented where you're just like, this is the truth and no truth can be ignored, and we can't continue ignoring this.

Hisham Matar (21:55):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I'm very glad we reconnected and I'm, I'm going to listen to the episodes that you mentioned. When I get some time

Noor Tagouri (22:13):

I would love to hear what you think after. If you have the capacity to listen to it. It would mean so much to me because your perspective, I really do seek to do that work. And if you have any feedback or anything comes up for you, please share that with me because I only want to get better at doing this.

Hisham Matar (22:36):

I will. I will. And that's very clear, and you're so good at it. And you've got this incredible format that works so well. And you have, I'm sure many, many, many fans and listeners. And so you're very well placed to inspire others and inform them. And so that's just so exciting. And yes, now we will remain in touch, I'm sure. Absolutely.

Noor Tagouri (23:08):

Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. And the goal is always to be of service. So if there's any way we can be of service, please let us know. And I can't tell you enough how grateful I am that you would even think to reach out, to share a reflection about the work that I've put out. It really means the world.

Hisham Matar (23:28):

Thank you, Noor, thank you so much. Well have a lovely time. Is it sunny there? Here?

Noor Tagouri (23:35):

It absolutely is. We're still in this city because we're recording a couple of more episodes, but I'm actually about to go to the New Museum with some friends because I've just had this itch and I'm hoping to make it to the frick this week to go see the Forge, and I can't wait. And sit in front of the painting and ponder on the questions that you presented.

Hisham Matar (23:58):

Let me know when you see us. See we get a chance. Absolutely.

Noor Tagouri (24:03):

Have a great rest of your day.

Hisham Matar (24:05):

Thank you.

Noor Tagouri (24:06):

Bye, salam.

Hisham Matar (24:07):

Bye bye.

PODCAST NOOR IS AN AYS PRODUCTION. 

PRODUCERS INCLUDE, MYSELF, ADAM KHAFIF, SARAH ESSA. 

EDITING, MIXING AND MASTERING BY BAHEED FRAIZER. 

EXTRA GRATITUDE AND THANKS TO OUR STORYTELLER HISHAM MATAR. MAKE SURE YOU CHECK OUT HIS NOVELS AND HIS MEMOIR THE RETURN.

AND AS ALWAYS, AT YOUR SERVICE.

(Transcript) Adam Grant on Changing Your Mind, the Flaws of Intuition, Horizontal Hostility, and More

Noor Tagouri (00:00:00):

3, 2, 1.

Adam Grant (00:00:03):

Ignorance is dangerous. What's even more dangerous is being ignorant of your own ignorance. I kind of have a love hate relationship with intuition. There are those warning signals that you get and you can't always explain them. I also know that there are times when our intuition leads us astray, the narcissism of small differences, right? That if you were to actually take a step back, you're cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Nope, these people are not exactly consistent with my principles, therefore, I can't ally with them.

Noor Tagouri (00:00:41):

Adam Grant is one of my heroes. He's an author, organizational psychologist, the top rated professor at Wharton School of Business, and not only a Ted speaker, but also a Ted podcaster. He has a TED podcast called Work Life. I first learned about Adam Grant in a Boston bookstore where the cover of his book, the Originals, how Non-Conformist Move the World Caught My Eye. It's a white book with bright colored paint splatter. I still don't know what the art meant, but as someone who in that moment judged a book by its cover, I knew I needed to read it and by read it, I mean I devoured it. I've gifted this book dozens and dozens and dozens of times and still continue to the originals is where I learned about the concept of horizontal hostility, which if you know me, you've heard me mention it at least once, his latest book, think Again. The power of knowing what you don't know could not be more timely, and we get into all of it, how we quote, think how we change our minds, what intuition actually is, and if it is always good horizontal hostility, of course, doing work you need for yourself doing work you actually need for your own self and so much more. This is one of my favorite podcast episodes and one of my favorite conversations I've ever had, so I hope you enjoy every single minute of it.

(00:02:13):

Welcome to our guided stories telling session. Adam, I told you this in our pre-call that I'm a huge fan and just constantly inspired by you, so again, I'm going to say thank you so much for teaching us and giving us so many tools and the language that we need to build our team and to build our business and just our core values and principles and all those cool things. Thank you.

Adam Grant (00:02:39):

Thank you, Noor. I really appreciate that. I will try to live up to it and thank you for giving voice to the stories of so many marginalized people. I'm not sure what I'm doing here, but I'm glad to be here.

Noor Tagouri (00:02:51):

You are here today because I love reading your stories and now I want to hear more of your stories. I get to hear some of them on your, but hopefully we're going to get a little deeper today. I like to get started by asking you and just doing a little check-in. How is your heart today?

Adam Grant (00:03:10):

I don't know. I haven't tested my pulse or anything like that, so I couldn't tell you. I would say overall good. I think it's obviously been an incredibly hard year for so many people and I feel very fortunate that I have nothing major to complain about. How about you?

Noor Tagouri (00:03:32):

My heart is, it's a little anxious I'll say, but I think I've just kind of been anxious lately in general and I'm figuring out the reasons behind that. I'm doing things to alleviate it and I'm spending time outside. I just took a little swim in our pond, which was really lovely and it cleared my head and I also have been spending time in what? 60 degree weather right now. I'm just loving it.

Adam Grant (00:04:00):

That's good to hear. Yeah, you can't invite a fellow podcast host on your show and expect to ask all the questions, watch out.

Noor Tagouri (00:04:07):

I know, and that's like, it's kind of hard because this is really supposed to be about your guided storytelling and just hearing your insights come out, but it just becomes this double interview, which I think is really great for all of the listeners and they're really grateful for it. But then I just get surprised, which I shouldn't be and I'm so grateful for it. So thank you for asking me about my heart. Thank you for also writing something during this time that is really helpful to so many people. Did you actually write your latest book, think again during Covid or were you already working on that? You already knew we were going to need it?

Adam Grant (00:04:41):

No, it was a complete accident. I've always tried to write books that were timeless and I made the mistake of writing one that was also timely this time I had no idea. I started working on it in 2018 after too many experiences of being frustrated that other people wouldn't open their minds, and then sometimes discovering that I was the one who needed to open my mind and think again. Wow. So I started working on the book and then I think I had finished about two thirds of it when the pandemic started and I realized there was a bunch of rethinking and a bunch of rewriting that I needed to do.

Noor Tagouri (00:05:14):

Did you feel like you just completely rewrote it or do you feel like a lot of it held up?

Adam Grant (00:05:18):

I think most of it held up because I was interested in the general psychology of what stops us from questioning our opinions and our assumptions and what stops other people from doing that too, and how do we change those dynamics and I think the psychology holds right. Some of the examples changed. I think also some of the questions that I started asking were different from ones that I really thought I was going to get into. I guess a good example would be I really thought the whole book was going to be about getting people to rethink their own views, and I normally think about opinions as something you hold consciously, and what Covid really brought to the fore was how many assumptions we were clinging to that we didn't even know we had in the first place. It never occurred to me to question the assumption that it was safe to hug extended family or that it was safe to eat indoor in a restaurant, and I think that made me much more aware of the fact that some of the most important rethinking that we do has to do with things that we don't even know we have thoughts about to begin with.

Noor Tagouri (00:06:22):

Wow. Yeah, I mean, and it oftentimes takes other people kind of pointing them out in the way that you have over and over again in your books to really give us the language to talk about the thing that we're already experiencing and think again, the subtitle is the power of knowing what you Don't know, and I felt that in a way that I didn't really expect because usually when you say the power of something, you're talking about something magnificent, something great, the power of knowing what you don't know, and then you immediately take us to a vulnerable corner that people are very uncomfortable going to, which is admitting that they don't know something. And oftentimes most people don't know how to admit that they don't know something. I actually was just having a conversation with my sister-in-law who was feeling a little down and insecure about not knowing certain things in her field right now, and I just said to her, I think the bigger thing to do, the thing that people prefer you to do is to simply say that you don't know and ask questions because that shows that you're open to learning, that you're open to growing and we want more of that.

(00:07:26):

At least that's how we like to build our team. So what did you know about framing your title that way and what did you need the reader to know before they opened the book?

Adam Grant (00:07:38):

I think you're spot on. I think ignorance is dangerous. What's even more dangerous is being ignorant of your own ignorance, and I wanted to signal to people that if you want to keep an open mind, if you want to stay informed and keep learning, that you have to be aware of all the gaps in your knowledge, and that's hard for a lot of people. I think there are a lot of people who fail to realize a fundamental truth of life, which is the faster you are to admit when you're wrong, the faster you can move toward being right. And I have so many people in my life who seem to think that the longer they deny their wrong, the longer they can fool themselves and everyone else and sort of hold onto the illusion of being right as opposed to saying, all right, maybe I should update my thinking and try to get it right.

Noor Tagouri (00:08:32):

Well, I think the idea of updating your thinking isn't even one that people really consider. We either consider You're wrong or you're right. There really isn't a growth or in between. We joke around with this term like, oh, those people at work are still stuck in high school. There are people who are still stuck in high school. Their internalized selves are still their young teen childlike selves that haven't gotten a chance to heal or evolve, which that part of ourselves is actually a really great place to tap into once you've been able to heal it once you've been able to work through things and once you've been able to evolve. So is it really that people are uninterested in evolving or they don't know that it's okay to, or I don't know, what was it that you kind of came up with all of the above? It's

Adam Grant (00:09:21):

Everything. Is that an option on this quiz?

Noor Tagouri (00:09:24):

I'm taking it. Yeah, that's a B, C, D, E, F G. Oh man.

Adam Grant (00:09:27):

No, it's a combination. I think for some people it's, it's just even having the courage to question their opinions internally and say, okay, maybe I was always wrong. Maybe I used to be right. And the world has changed in my day job as an organizational psychologist. I see this all the time when I watch the Blackberry fall apart or Blockbuster or Kodak or Sears or toys or us go out of business, it's not that those people were never right, it's that they stuck to their opinions for too long and the world changed around them and they didn't adapt with it. So for some of us, I think it's that for others, it's recognizing that when you admit I was wrong or I don't know or I changed my mind, that doesn't reveal your insecurity. It actually signals that you're secure enough in your strengths to admit some of your weaknesses, and that showing that kind of humility actually takes confidence. So it's a bit of a reframe for people to say, Hey, you know what? The confidence to say what you don't know and to say how you've evolved is actually a very powerful way of living in the world because it both allows other people to respect your integrity and it allows you to keep growing and learning.

Noor Tagouri (00:10:42):

Right? Wow. So we're talking about how people are nervous about how they're going to be perceived or how other people are going to look at them, which unfortunately many of us are more focused on than how we even feel about ourselves. But part of me is also thinking about the fear of questioning your beliefs, beliefs that were taught to you by people that you trusted, whether they be your parents, your teachers, your religious leaders, whoever it is, and having that be shaken and having that really feel like a piece of this building that's made of blocks that you've kind of, the whole Jenga thing is falling apart. That's what I'm trying to say, and that's kind of what people are feeling. So they're holding onto this thing, and I've had these really hard conversations with people before, even when they know something doesn't make sense, they just know that if they question this belief, then they have to question everything else and they don't want to go there. But that willful ignorance has them still harming other people with the way that they think and just the way that they vote or the way that they spend their money or whatever it may be.

Adam Grant (00:11:54):

Yeah. It reminds me of, I thought a brilliant insight from the psychologist George Kelly, who had just a completely eyeopening definition of hostility. He said that hostility is the anger and frustration that you feel when a belief that you already know deep down was false gets invalidated, and all of a sudden you have to grapple with the reality that the thing you secretly suspected was wrong is in fact wrong and you really don't want to acknowledge it.

Noor Tagouri (00:12:23):

What is it that happens to our insides when you do start to begin to chip away at that acknowledgement and decide, okay, I have to move in this direction, or I will have to stay here?

Adam Grant (00:12:37):

Well, I think if you talk to neuroscientists, they'll tell you that a threat to your core beliefs is a great way to trigger the amygdala, which is the threat detection system and exist to, in some ways, govern fight or flight, and a lot of times people will attack, other times they'll vigorously defend. There's some work in neuroscience that says it's like being punched in the mind that you literally show a physiological pain response when somebody attacks one of your core beliefs, which I think explains a lot of what's going on in our polarized world right now. I think though, that there's a sense in which after you respond that way, if you have the equanimity or the curiosity to pause and say, huh, that's interesting. Why did I get so upset? It was just a comment that somebody made. It was just an observation. It doesn't necessarily have any implications for me.

(00:13:32):

I can choose to ignore it, and yet I completely lost it. What's going on there? As you start to unpack, okay, why is this belief part of my identity? Why is it central to my value system? You could start to realize, you know what? Sometimes it's actually liberating to let go of those old ideas that are holding you back, especially to your point, if you grew up in some setting where you were indoctrinated or brainwashed to believe particular things before you really thought about them on your own, and the experience of being able to independently say, okay, well let me evaluate the evidence. Let me look at the logic here and decide for myself. That's empowering for a lot of people.

Noor Tagouri (00:14:17):

Do you remember when you began to think for yourself?

Adam Grant (00:14:24):

It's strange to think about not thinking for myself.

(00:14:30):

I'm trying to think of whether there was a point where I had a conscious awareness of it. I think, yeah, I actually have a vivid memory of standing outside with two of my nursery school friends and going up. I think we were on a deck in the backyard and going up step above them and saying, I'm three and a half, and they were still three. They hadn't turned three and a half yet, and I felt like it gave me some authority to not only think differently from them, but also to maybe tell them what to do a little bit, and it, it's the first memory I have of having a mind of my own.

Noor Tagouri (00:15:11):

Wow. I mean, I love that because like I said, that version of you is so pure and still exists and still tears you on, you think? Yeah, a hundred percent. I totally think that our inner child still exists within us. I do morning pages, which is the practice that Julia Cameron writes about in the artist's way, and when I'm really stuck in a problem or in a creative rutt or whatever it is, my go-to practice is to write to my younger self. I actually, I will show you this is I love that. This what I keep on my little screen.

Adam Grant (00:15:52):

So cute. Look at all the hair.

Noor Tagouri (00:15:53):

And that's three year old nude. I know, right? She's so cute. And this is the little girl that I write to and she has all of my answers, and I think it's because I've spent enough time mean she had the imagination of the whole entire world. And I was lucky enough that my parents were so encouraging to her and made sure that I did every little thing that inspired us. They put a camera in my face since I was a little baby, and they knew that this was something that I gravitated towards. So before society told me who I should be and what I should look like, I always go back to that because that was the purest version of myself I think, and I'm trying to get back to the energy and the spirit that version of me had and trying to peel away all of the layers that I of muck essentially that I attached to myself as I've grown older.

Adam Grant (00:16:48):

What I think is so interesting about that is it stands in direct contrast to what psychologists normally recommend when we study mental time travel. So the idea is that so often when we make decisions or we form opinions, we we're too stuck in the immediate considerations of the moment. And the goal is to step outside of those, and usually the recommendation is fast forward in time, imagine your future self in 20 years, will you regret this decision? What do you think you'll wish you had paid more attention to? And the hope is then that people are less likely to get seduced by status when they choose a job or a career path that they're more likely to prioritize meaning and relationships. If they think about what's really going to matter to them in the long run, you're going backward. You are going to, I mean, you're going to a less wise, right, less intelligent version of yourself.

(00:17:43):

And I think one of the things that's interesting about that is when you use the term purity, it reminded me something that happened to me that I didn't expect to be a pivotal moment at all, but it was so I was just about to launch my second book, I guess this was 2016, a friend called and she said, your launch is a couple days away. What are you doing to celebrate? And I said, nothing. I'm a writer. That's what we do. We write authors, publish books. And she said, don't you think this is a big milestone? You poured at least a year of your life into this maybe more, and it's not like you write a book every day. This is really something you should should mark and you should savor. All of a sudden it dawned on me that I am terrible at enjoying success.

(00:18:35):

Whenever I accomplish a goal, it takes about four minutes for me to then recalibrate, raise the bar, and then focus on next year's goal. And it hit me that I needed just like you do to get in touch with an earlier version of myself, a more naive and maybe a slightly version of myself that was less likely to take a meaningful accomplishment for granted. And so what I ended up doing was I ended up rewinding to say, okay, if 10 years ago or five years ago even, I knew I was going to publish a second book, let alone a first one, that people were actually going to read it that would've made my day, and I need to stay in touch with that earlier version of myself because it's going to allow me to appreciate those moments, and it's something I've done ever since. Whenever something meaningful happens that I'm tempted to just say, nah, as expected, that's a part of my life now.

(00:19:26):

It's part of my identity. I've tried to rewind the clock and say, okay, if I could get in touch with the 10 year old or the 15 year old or the 20 year old year old version of myself, how excited would I be? And then I have a responsibility to that version of me to experience that level of joy for at least a day. Is that similar to how this plays out for you? Because it sounds like when you write to your younger self, you're also doing it to live up to the dreams, the goals of your younger self. I'm curious to hear more about that.

Noor Tagouri (00:19:55):

Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And I also really relate to the just immediacy of, I did the thing that I said I was going to do and it's over with and I have to move on and I have to move on. I think gratitude really plays a role in that for me. Now, my husband actually just said this yesterday, are you grateful to today for the things that you prayed for yesterday? And you don't have to be a praying person to acknowledge that. You still have to sit in gratitude and mindfulness for the things that you've always dreamed of that you've always asked. For me, I think that especially because I'm on such a different path that's not traditional and not because I didn't want it to be traditional, I wanted the whole traditional route of working from a top 50 market, top 10 market to national news.

(00:20:43):

That's what I wanted. That's what I thought I wanted. And because that wasn't possible because the noss were not because of my talent, but because of what I chose to wear, I had to figure out how to build differently. And that was, that's the biggest gift I've ever been given because now you look at kind of the state of media and I'm realizing becoming my own media company, becoming my own media platform is what saved me and what saved my career. And of course, I want to continue building, but I have to remember that those little goals that I had, because I've been setting goals for myself since I was three years old, three and a half year old Adam and three-year-old would've been great friends because that's all I did. And I have to remember when it's really hard when I get more and more no's that the yeses that I got were ones that I didn't even dream of and that you almost have to be like, how are you can't get upset about the fact you got in the room, you got in the room that you never thought you were going to get into, and this still happens.

(00:21:50):

I had a meeting with my number one production company that I want to work with one of the best in the world right now, and they immediately took my pitch and they loved me and they loved my pitch, and it just wasn't a right fit. And I was a little bit sad, but I was more overwhelmed with the fact that I can't believe I got to pitch to them. My relationship with my younger self and the way that that manifests is I've always believed that when people are struggling with figuring out what it is that they want to do, I love how Elizabeth Gilbert says she doesn't really believe in following passion. She believes in following curiosity, curiosity. I really, really live by that, and I do think that when you're really young, you have these things that you still really enjoy doing that still find ways to manifest.

(00:22:40):

I ask my mom every once in a while to tell me about the things that I used to do as a kid. I all of a sudden during Covid decided when local theaters open back up, I'm going to join the theater. I'm going to join the community theater. I don't care if no one ever knows that I joined the community theater, but I think that that's something I want to do. And I asked my mom if that was something that I was interested in as a kid, where did this come from? And she said, yes. And so I'm trying to tap into that even if it's just as a hobby, because I think it's really important to have a relationship with that person. And I don't believe that that person has gone. I don't believe my younger self has gone, and maybe according to I think that this is a psychology type thing.

(00:23:21):

I'm not a psychologist, obviously, I'm just a really big imagination person, but if we believe that time is a social construct and we believe that the things that have happened to you, you can still heal from your past, then I believe that if I can go back in time and I've done E M D R therapy, which is kind of where some of this comes from, but if I can go back in time and heal different versions of myself, it's almost like a domino effect. It can really lift these huge burdens and change my mind in ways that I didn't think were possible. I remember as a teenager, I also didn't really think it's funny that you wrote this book the way that you did because I remember thinking in my head, I don't know if anybody can ever change my mind. I love collecting stories.

(00:24:08):

I love learning so much, and it wouldn't come out of nowhere. It would come in a moment where my mind was changed, and I would ask myself, I wonder if this is the last time my mind is going to change. And I think I asked myself that because it felt like such a big deal when you have a truth that you believed in, and then it shifts and it shifts and it shifts and you grow and you evolve. And it's almost scary because this is really personal, but I'm noticing the more that I do this, the more that I change my mind, the more that I heal those past versions of myself, the harder it is to come back to certain friendships and relationships that you have because you're not the same person, especially because of Covid. You've been so far away from people, and now as we are fully vaccinated and starting to see people or reconnect with people, it's just a little jarring almost, because I'm like, do you still know me? I don't think you do.

Adam Grant (00:25:13):

It's a lot. I do know. Oh, there's so much there. I mean, the first thing it reminds me of is I had the hardest time for a long time with a few friendships. When we would get together to catch up, that's all we would do. We would catch up, we would reminisce about old experiences, and we weren't creating new experiences together. And at some point, wait, this friendship is just reliving the past. It's not actually moving forward in the future. And then there's the question of, well, am I holding that back? Is the other person, is it something about the connection between us? And I think that's just incredibly complicated. The other thing that you reminded me of when you were talking is it's such a travesty that you had to face so much prejudice and discrimination in order to land on this different path. Right? In an ideal version of the world, you would've just chosen it as opposed to feeling like you

Noor Tagouri (00:26:10):

Were forced to build. I'll say the originals played a really big role in that too. Thank you.

Adam Grant (00:26:14):

Oh, well, I hope it didn't ruin your career.

Noor Tagouri (00:26:18):

No, it was in the best way possible. It became a manual that anybody we worked with had to read because we had to tell them. You gave us the affirmation that what we were doing was the right thing and not just going into an abyss with complete uncertainty.

Adam Grant (00:26:36):

Well, that is wonderful to hear, especially about the book that I failed to celebrate. It's great to know that

Noor Tagouri (00:26:43):

It helps so much. I didn you. No worries.

Adam Grant (00:26:45):

Thank you. Yeah, you can do all my book celebrations from now on. Got you.

Noor Tagouri (00:26:52):

Hi there. If you find our work beneficial and you want to support how we build our company at your service, you can subscribe to my Patreon at patreon.com/nor. It's usually personal writings, and as I build a community on there, hopefully more, your support is how we build. I also curate a weekly newsletter of all the things I'm benefiting from and enjoying that week. Anything from what I'm reading, watching, listening, buying, and more. Like most things, I keep it personal. You can subscribe to it at nor tag.com/newsletter. Now, back to the story,

Adam Grant (00:27:35):

As you do start to achieve some of your goals, and then they start to become things that you expected. I found that sometimes it's helpful to decouple my aspirations for my expectations to say, look, you know what? I do want to keep raising the bar. I do want to have more ambitious goals because when I achieve something, it means I've gained more mastery or more doors have opened and I can start aiming higher, and I should be doing that. That's one way to avoid resting on your laurels and being complacent. It's also a way to keep challenging yourself and growing. And the thing to be careful about is to not assume I'm always going to hit those goals to raise the bar for what I want to accomplish, but sort of keep the bar where it was on what I expect to accomplish. And that way, if I hit the higher goal, it's almost a pleasant surprise and it's exciting.

(00:28:25):

And if I don't, I'm like, okay, this still went pretty well and I met my expectations. And it seems a little bit more realistic. And I think the reason that I guess that I've been rethinking this relationship between aspirations and expectations is that if the expectations go up with the aspirations, it's sort of a lose lose because if you succeed, it's basically just like, yeah, whatever. If you fail, it's hugely disappointing. And if that happens, too many times you stop raising the bar like, oh, well, I don't want to miss. I don't want to fail. I don't want to fall short. And so this idea of saying, all right, I'm going to let the aspirations go up. I'm going to be increasingly ambitious, but my expectations are going to rise more slowly is a way to keep myself, I guess, pushing myself and stretching myself, but not just completely undermining the experience of goal pursuit and then success or failure.

Noor Tagouri (00:29:25):

Definitely one of my spiritual teachers actually taught me expectations are premeditated resentment, and I have to,

Adam Grant (00:29:33):

That's a great

Noor Tagouri (00:29:34):

Line myself almost every single day because I am an expectations person. I mean, I set goals, I schedules that are minute by minute from 3 0 4 to 3 0 7, this is what I'm going to do. That's how I work, and that's how my brain feels like it can get things. I never get every single thing done, but the habit and the work of just even evolving my schedule throughout the day to remind myself that I'm getting things done is it's a way to alleviate my anxiety, I think, and I'm replacing the word, but and every single time, and it's making me a lot happier, and I'm realiz.

(00:30:14):

I'm realizing that we really do set ourselves up to not only resent ourselves, but resent other people even when the expectations that we're setting are not clear. We're not vocalizing the expectations. It's like expecting people to read our minds. I thought that, I assumed that you would feel this way, but it's really them projecting their own insecurities onto you, but then taking it out on you when you're not responding. I'm realizing more and more that this type of insecurity is really selfish, even though it's in the name of being caring. And a lot of things that we do in the name of caring for someone or loving someone is actually really selfish because you're putting your own emotions and anxiety onto other people, and you're assuming that they're not a human being with their own stuff as well.

Adam Grant (00:31:10):

That's such a common problem. One of the places I've seen it in my work on generosity is people end up in this trap where they say, okay, I am just thinking of an example of this that I've, it's just been extremely frustrating. I actually, I had a student this fall who came to me with a big dilemma and he said, I'm really having a hard time setting some boundaries in my life, and I feel like I'm not doing enough for other people, but I'm also getting way overextended. What's going on? Tell me more. And he said, well, I started volunteering. I got a coveted job, and then I started volunteering to help people who are going for internships at that company prepare and learn about the interview process. And I said, well, why are you doing that? He said, well, I believe in paying it forward. And there were a lot of people who helped me, and I feel a lot of empathy for, I'm a senior and these poor juniors are all, they're anxious and they're stressed out and I can help them. And I said, Kareem, lemme take a step back here and ask you what good are you actually doing?

(00:32:34):

If anything, you're giving some students an unfair advantage, right? By giving them an inside view of the interview process. And if you didn't do that, it's possible that other stressed out anxious students would have more of a level playing field and get the job, so why are you helping them? He said, well, because I know them and I feel a little bit of their suffering. Okay, so are you doing this because you care about them and you really believe this is the best way to help them? Or you're doing it to try to make yourself feel a little bit better in this situation and feel like you've alleviated their pain even though you're not actually net helping anybody, you're just shuffling who gets the job and who doesn't If you're successful, I've had this experience so many times where I've put all this pressure on myself to help people, and then I've had to step back and ask, am I actually doing good here or do I just want the person to like me? And I think that's so much of what's driving in the Kareem example. He has these students who if he says no to them, he's going to think, oh no, I'm jeopardizing the relationship. I'm hurting their feelings. They're not going to want to be my friend anymore. I'm maybe destroying my network. Aha. So are you really there to help them? Maybe

Noor Tagouri (00:33:50):

Not. He's still making it about himself. So many people who do things in the name of wanting to help and caring for, I just really care about this person. I'm just really concerned. You're still making it about yourself. One of my friends, actually, she's a trauma expert and she taught me this, which I am always so stuck on where it's more important to let someone fail and figure it out on their own than to help them. And I said to her, we were talking, the example was her and her sister working out together. And I said, but what if your sister was going to physically hurt herself? And she said, it's more important that I listen to her and respect her feelings and let her hurt herself so she can learn something on her own than it is to interject and try to save someone. And everything shattered in my brain because I thought when you see someone who's about to fail, maybe it's your job to go in and save them and to help them, but maybe you're doing them a disservice from not learning the lesson that they need to learn and not letting them grow and ask for help the way they need to.

Adam Grant (00:35:04):

Yeah, it's a little bit of the white Knight syndrome, which is I want to rush in and come to the rescue and be the hero in this situation as opposed to asking what's really going to serve the other person best.

Noor Tagouri (00:35:17):

Definitely in the long run. Another thing I really like about your book is the cover art and the cover design. And I hear a really up and coming creative visionary to the creative direction for your art, your cover art, which is a lit match, but instead of fire, the match that is lit is lit of water. Tell me about this person and what they meant by this story.

Adam Grant (00:35:44):

Well, we had a hard time coming up with a cover concept for this book, and I am not a fan of judging a book by a cover in general, right? There are great books with terrible covers out there. I do think if you see an amazing cover, it usually means there's a creative team that put a lot of energy and passion into coming up with something that would represent the book. And maybe you could give a book with a great cover, an extra chance, but don't judge a book for a bad cover. So it's always been important to me to make sure that the cover captures the reader's attention and says something about the book and how do you capture thinking? Again, it's something that happens inside your head. And we tried optical illusions, and some of them were just cliched and others, you actually couldn't understand what they were supposed to be saying.

(00:36:31):

And we were at a loss, and I happened to say to our oldest daughter, Joanna, who's 12, that we were stuck on the covers. And she came to me about an hour later and said, I have an idea. What if you had a candle or a match with fire but water instead? Oh my gosh, that's a really interesting idea. And then she actually created a mockup of what the image would look like, and I loved it. It immediately made me think, again, I sent it to the team, they loved it, and then they created their design version of it, and that became the book cover. This is my favorite part of think again, is that I had to rethink where creative ideas came from. It would've never occurred to me before that to go to our 12 year old and say, can you come up with a book cover concept for me

Noor Tagouri (00:37:19):

Telling you the younger versions? The younger versions are the geniuses.

Adam Grant (00:37:23):

Although I couldn't have done that at 12. So sometimes it's just a more creative person who also happens to

Noor Tagouri (00:37:30):

Be younger. She's also a 12 year old. So

Adam Grant (00:37:33):

No, I give my wife Allison, all the creative credit back. You

Noor Tagouri (00:37:35):

Allison's 12 year old. Yeah, I mean, just brilliant. I asked this question and I wanted you to share this story because actually the originals, the reason that I bought it, I read the originals before I read give and Take, and the reason I bought it was because this cover was just so amazing. It was literally the last time I went into a bookstore and I just bought a bunch of books because of the covers that I liked. And yours happened to be the one that I read first. It may have been the only one I read actually, and look where we are now.

Adam Grant (00:38:03):

Amazing. Yeah, that's actually a great example of judging a book positively by its cover. And then of course, you have to update and rethink your judgment once you read it and decide if it was any good. But one of the things that I did not think about going in was a book in many ways is an invitation into the mind of an author. And the cover is that's the envelope, right? That's when you get a wedding invitation. There's a first impression that you have of it. And I think a book is very much the same way. And too many authors sit down and say, if I just get the words, if I capture my ideas and I tell my stories, then my work is done. And I think that no, you need to think about how you package the invitation too, so that people aren't just excited to engage with your ideas and take a trip in your brain. They also are doing it with the right frame of mind.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:07):

Yeah, it's just finishing the body of work and making sure that you're putting the same amount of importance into every single aspect of it. It's fantastic. I hope Joanna grows up to do all of the book covers, all of the add. Great. It's a family collaboration.

Adam Grant (00:39:22):

Me too. She started doing some cover design for other authors and has made a couple of book trailers too. And it's, it's amazing to see her finding this creative outlet, which the pandemic could not have been a better time for it.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:35):

Wow. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. I'll be the first person, maybe the second person after you and Allison to buy one of her books because of the cover, because that's what I do. I judge them by the covers.

Adam Grant (00:39:46):

We're ready, bring it up.

Noor Tagouri (00:39:49):

In this whole process, what was the biggest thing that you changed your mind about?

Adam Grant (00:39:55):

There were a lot of things. I think the biggest thing that I changed my mind about was about how to have charged conversations going into writing. Think again. I was convinced that the reason we're so polarized is because people only see their own side, and what we need to do is show them the other side. I now believe that that's not only failing to solve the problem, it's actually part of the problem. It's exacerbating the problem. And the research on this is pretty extensive and very robust. It's on our tendency as humans to fall victim to binary bias where we take this whole complex spectrum of views and attitudes, and we tend to dumb it down and oversimplify it into two categories, which helps us sort of, I don't know, find our footing in a confusing world. And so if you take somebody who has an extreme stance on any issue, whether it's abortion or climate change, and you show them the other extreme, that just reinforces the tendency to believe that they're only two positions and which one are they going to like better?

(00:41:02):

The one that they're already invested in, or the one that sounds crazy and wrong and evil to them. And most people obviously, will choose their own side. What we need to do is get people out of these binaries, and anytime somebody says, well, it's us versus them, or, well, let me show you the other side. What I want to know is what does the third angle look like? What's the fourth perspective that's missing? What we want to do is complexify the conversation and show the spectrum, the shades of gray, all the nuances between the positions and say, okay, instead of just these two extremes, actually some people who agree with you on one piece of that issue disagree with you on another piece of it. And there's a whole bunch of different camps. So climate change is a clear example. The media mostly covers people who are alarmed about a burning planet or who are completely dismissive of the fact that climate change is even happening.

(00:41:52):

And what about all the people in the middle? Turns out most people are somewhere in the middle. Many people are concerned but not alarmed. They think, you know what? There's a lot of evidence that climate change is happening. It might not be good. I don't know that it's an immediate emergency, and I'm also not sure what to do about it. And then there are also many people who are skeptical saying, well, I don't know that it's totally settled yet. What exactly is the biggest cause of it and what we should do to act on it? And when you amplify those views, you take the people who are denying science right on one extreme and give them an opportunity to identify with one of those camps that's more middle of the road, which is part of opening their minds to science. So that was probably the biggest rethinking I did while writing the book.

Noor Tagouri (00:42:37):

I mean, that's something that sounds like you can continuously be rethinking that. It feels like there's so many layers to it because people who hold those really strong values oftentimes will feel like they're compromising on their values and that there's something wrong with them or that they're betraying some value that they have when doing it. It's like how we have a two party system in America. We only have Democrats and Republicans, but I want to bet that most people in this country don't agree with every single thing that their personal party does. Yet we are living on this binary, and we don't even give people really rumor permission to explore other options or to say, I like a little bit here. I like a little bit there because the other side is always evil, and this happens also more intimately within our own community. So we can talk about these ends of the spectrum, but one thing that you taught me was this concept of horizontal hostility, which I had experienced so much, but I didn't have the language for, which is experiencing a distaste or hostility with people who share the same values as you are who are a part of your community.

(00:43:52):

The example that I always give, which is one that you wrote about, is the research that was done on vegans having more hostility towards vegetarians than non-vegetarians. Because if you're a vegetarian, then just go all over the way. And I think that that's the most clear one I can do. So I apologize to being community, but that's the most clear example because my experience with that as a Muslim woman is You're talking about this, or you did an interview in Playboy. What are you thinking? That hostility and that level of hostility honestly has allowed me to build my own community, but not feel like I can entirely be a part of the bigger one, which is rooted in trauma. But at the same time, and at the same time kind of comes down to this thing where even when there can be two extremes on the spectrum, and I am talking about this, visualizing it. What about when the two middles seem so far away?

Adam Grant (00:44:49):

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's start with vegans. I was riveted by Judith White's research on horizontal hostility, and she found that a lot of vegans do dislike vegetarians more than meat eaters, which doesn't make any sense because vegetarians are much closer to their values and their beliefs and meat eaters are, but the vegans would say, well, at least the meat eaters are consistent, right? They're not hypocrites. Whereas the vegetarians, they're letting me down, they're violating my principles, and this is really bad. They're a threat to our group because they're not clearly distinct enough from the meat eaters. And I think that people do this in so many different walks of life. Judith has studied it in a whole bunch of different places. She sees it in political parties where people will often dislike the more moderate version of their views more than they dislike the opposing side, so to speak.

(00:45:48):

Same for religious groups. Extreme religious conservatives sometimes harbor more hostility toward moderates than they do people who are atheists. And what's so surprising to me about that is what Freud called the narcissism of small differences, that if you were to actually take a step back, if you're a vegan, right, vegetarians are a pretty helpful potential ally for you in your war on meat, right? There are a lot more vegetarians than there are vegans. I think there are people who do sit in that middle position and could maybe draw some of the meat eaters over and toward, it's a step toward less animal cruelty if that's your concern. It's a step toward less violation of your religious precepts, right? If this is a moral issue for you, and yet you're cutting off your nose to spite your own face, nope. These people are not exactly consistent with my principles, therefore, I can't ally with them. I cannot have any kind of allegiance with them. They must be taken down.

Noor Tagouri (00:46:52):

Definitely the same teacher that I told you mentioned the expectations are premeditate. Resentment taught me also this concept of the public minimum private maximum. So the private maximum is how you choose to practice something. So if we're talking about religion, which is kind of my experience, how I choose to be a Muslim at home and in my private life, and the public minimum is what is the very, very, very, very minimum that it takes to call yourself a Muslim. And in our faith, the very minimum is believing in one God. That's the saying, and believing in the last messenger of God, that's it. You can say that and not do anything else, and you're still technically Muslim. But what happens is a lot of people impose their private maximum onto the public minimum and say, well, the way that I believe, the way that I practice, the way that I eat, whatever it might be, is the standard should be the public minimum. And that's just not right. And that also doesn't allow us to build or connect, and it makes people feel alienated and alone, alien.

Adam Grant (00:48:07):

That is such an insightful analysis. I think it's right on target. And I think that one of the things that we ought to do is say, okay, maybe we shouldn't always hold other people to the same standards that we hold ourselves. Maybe sometimes we're being too hard on ourselves and then we're being too hard on other people. In other cases, the standards that we think are appropriate for us may not be appropriate for them. And I see a lot of people land in this position where they're very critical of a public minimum because they have, to your point, a much more strict private maximum in mind. But they're only evaluating that on one dimension, and they forget that life and values are multidimensional and that you might be better than someone on the one aspect that you're comparing on, and then you might be falling short on others. And it's sad to see, I dunno, I keep noticing that. When you think about the people who help you set those standards, they're usually your role models. The closer, the closer you are to them, the better you know them.

(00:49:27):

It's like looking at a car in your passenger, in your side mirror. Objects viewed through this mirror may be distorted. That's true when they're at a distance. And the closer they get, the more you get to see them for real. And I think your role models are rarely as uniformly virtuous as you think they are from afar. The same is true for your villains, that if you see them up close and personal, they are often, their vices are not quite as bad, or they don't define them quite as much or as comprehensively as you think. And I think it's, for me, just a reminder that we could probably show a little more compassion to others, and then also show ourselves a little more compassion too when we fall short of our own private maxima.

Noor Tagouri (00:50:13):

And maybe if we were to look at people with that closer lens, whether it be our role models or our villains, we will have more empathy for them and have more empathy for ourselves.

Adam Grant (00:50:26):

That would be nice.

Noor Tagouri (00:50:27):

Right. The thing I always go back to is that you will have a whole lifetime to work on yourself. You should not have time in your life to be focused on the business of other people because there's just too much for you to do. And that's how I think about it. That's why I strongly, strongly, strongly dislike gossiping. It makes me feel really uncomfortable, but also it seems like one of the biggest waste of time, and I know that some people enjoy doing it, whether it's harmless or not, I just have so much to do, and so I'd rather just sit down and talk to you about ideas and see you for you. And I love getting to know people that up close and personal because it reminds me that I can be me too, and I can be me and not worry about fitting any other standard, because that's what we should be expecting from ourselves.

Adam Grant (00:51:17):

I generally agree with that. I wonder about one exception in the spirit of, oh, tell me. Inviting people to rethink things. The work that really shifted my thinking on this is Matthew Feinberg and Rob Willer on what they call pro-social gossip, which is essentially warning people about the selfish behavior of somebody that they don't know well. So I saw this in the context of the research I was doing on givers and takers and matchers, where if you're a highly generous giver, you are sometimes vulnerable to being taken advantage of by the most selfish takers. And there are these people in the middle of that spectrum. Again, the middle being most common. The people who I've called matchers, whose default instinct is to try to maintain justice and preserve fairness and say, look, givers ought to be rewarded and takers ought to be punished. And one of the ways that matchers protected givers against takers is they would say, Hey, no, don't trust this guy. He's a selfish jerk. Definitely they'd warn you about somebody's history or reputation of manipulative behavior or toxicity. And I started to believe that that serves an important function in the world, and that if pro-social gossip doesn't occur, then the people who are most trusting are the most vulnerable to exploitation. What do you think of that?

Noor Tagouri (00:52:35):

It's not something I can even challenge because my faith, in my faith, it literally says gossip is only permitted when you're protecting someone from someone else. And when you're looking out for someone, which is literally, then it's clear. So to me,

Adam Grant (00:52:50):

Wow, that's amazing.

Noor Tagouri (00:52:52):

I don't even know if I consider that gossip, because I think that gossip to me is talking about other people's secrets or putting other people down. But you know what? I'm so pro, what did you call it? Social

Adam Grant (00:53:05):

Pro-Social gossip.

Noor Tagouri (00:53:06):

Pro-social gossip, yeah. All day.

Adam Grant (00:53:08):

Yeah. I mean, the definition covers you beautifully. I think the place that gets tricky is, I think where it does become gossip is something that I've done a few times in part because other people did it for me. I've said, you know what? I don't know this person well, but my spidey sense is tingling. Totally. There've been a couple of red flags. And then I can't verify that they're takers. I don't know for sure that they're selfish people, but I'm just kind of warning, be a little cautious. Maybe help them a little before you make yourself too vulnerable to them. And in that sense, it feels like a bit of gossip to me, but it's still done in service of protecting somebody. So I think it still qualifies as acceptable in your view, right?

Noor Tagouri (00:53:52):

Oh, definitely. Because that's coming from intuition, which I think is even more divine than just our common sense. That has always been my guide, and it's always proven to be true when I have that feeling about someone or something, or an experience, a crazy story. One time when I first started speaking, I've been speaking since I was 17, touring and speaking, I got invited to this event that was in Pennsylvania. It was promoted as this really big event. I got the biggest speaking feat that I had ever gotten at the time. And everybody that I know was getting invited, something in me just felt like something was off. I've actually never shared this story before, even when it happened, but something in me was totally off. And the way that the organizer was talking, I just felt off. So I pulled out of the event. I was the only person to pull out of the event. Wow. Everybody kept asking, why did you pull out? Why did you pull out? My answer was, I just don't have a really good feeling. I don't know what's going to happen. I just don't have a good feeling about it. The event comes around, people flew in from Europe to do this event. They all show up to the venue.

Adam Grant (00:55:10):

This isn't Fire Fest, is it?

Noor Tagouri (00:55:11):

No, it's not Fire Fest, but it's basically like Fire

Adam Grant (00:55:14):

Fest. It sounds like those

Noor Tagouri (00:55:15):

Stories. No. Yeah. But it is one of those stories. Everybody showed up and no one was there. The woman had taken all of the money from the registers and all of that, and people were stranded. They had to get people to help pay for their tickets to go back home. And I was the only one to pull out, had no reason to pull out. It was the most money I had ever been offered before. And honestly, part of it was just, I've never been offered this much money and something feels wrong with this, and maybe this is my test to see if I'm going to do this because I love this check, but it's just not right. And I never, after that, anytime I have a feeling about something. So I kind of partook in what you were saying, but I didn't have any reason to. And I let other people make that decision for themselves because I'm not going to tell people what to do. But what is your relationship with intuition? Do you always listen to it?

Adam Grant (00:56:10):

No, definitely not. So I think this is so interesting. I kind of have a love hate relationship with intuition because on the one hand I recognize that there are those warning signals that you get and you can't explain them, and you really beat yourself up and regret later not listening to 'em. I also know that there are times when our intuition leads us astray. And the way I would explain that is when I think about intuition, I think about it as subconscious pattern recognition. It's a set of patterns that you've picked up in the past that your subconscious mind can recognize more quickly. So you're a

Noor Tagouri (00:56:46):

Scientist.

Adam Grant (00:56:47):

Yeah. I mean, this is what I do, right? But if you wanted to measure how is intuition being represented? A standard example in research on intuition is you're a firefighter, you go into a burning building and all of a sudden you have a bad feeling about it and you dash out, and a minute later the building explodes. And what happened there is your subconscious mind recognized a series of patterns in the way that the fire was spreading faster than you could have actually processed them and connected it to the last time you saw a building explode. And that split second instinct to follow your intuition saves your life. If you study like crazy, right? Just stop there. Amazing. That

Noor Tagouri (00:57:28):

Actually exists. That is scientific inside of our bodies.

Adam Grant (00:57:33):

Gary Klein, I think is probably the psychologist who's done the most interesting work on this. And he shows that firefighters, if they go on their intuition in a situation like that, they will make better decisions than if they actually stop and analyze it. Nurses also are sometimes able to diagnose illnesses and patients before they're visible on a medical test, in part because their intuition picks up a series of patterns and connects the dots and says, oh, that's what the diagnosis is. And if you stop there, follow your intuition. The problem is there are actually two problems that I worry about. I'm very curious to hear your take on them. The first problem is that intuition is not reliable if you're in an environment that's different from the one that it was formed in. So the reason intuition works for firefighters is there's a limited number of ways that a building could burn or a building could explode.

(00:58:28):

And so the conditions you've been exposed to for the last 10 years of your career are going to be repeated over and over again. If you study stockbrokers trying to use their intuition, it's terrible because the market conditions that you built your intuition in are completely different from the conditions that you're applying it. Now, you see this with venture capitalists too, or one of my favorite examples is Steve Jobs, who is so right with his intuition about software, and then he goes over to a different industry and betts on the segue and is convinced that that's story's going to become a huge hit, right? Yeah, you remember that from originals. And to me that was a classic case of not realizing that the years he built up accurate intuition about software didn't apply to this hardware transportation industry question that he needed to gain more experience in to figure out, okay, what are the patterns that I can trust there? And so I guess that actually it's one problem, not two. The problem is that some are more dynamic and unpredictable than others, and that means that intuitions sometimes get ported into places where they don't belong. And let me give you a different example of this and then I'll shut up and let you react. I think where this really worries me is intuition is also responsible for a lot of bias and prejudice.

(00:59:41):

I once had somebody not hired for a job because somebody said my intuition about him, I didn't feel right. I said, well, I don't believe in making hiring decisions that way. I think we should have criteria for the competencies and skills in the job, and then we should figure out whether this person has the motivation and the ability to master this job. And finally, I pushed and it turned out that the manager just got a bad vibe. Well, guess what? The candidate was autistic. And there's something about the social cues, the lack of eye contact, some of the responses maybe not building the same level of rapport that they were used to, that led to this episode of discrimination. And in that case, the intuition was, well, this person is not socially skilled, and then that gets overgeneralized into therefore they can't do this job. And those are the kinds of situations where intuition really scares me because it allows people, we form intuitions that people who look like us, who come from our culture are more trustworthy than people who belong to an outgroup. I'm like, I don't want people to follow those intuitions. I want them to challenge them. So what do you make of all that?

(01:00:57):

Sorry, I said a lot of things.

Noor Tagouri (01:00:58):

No, no, no. Why would you ever apologize? I'm just a little bit, I'm wrapping my mind around what you said and also wrapping my mind around the fact that I've never had something like that challenged before, and I've never had to think about this. And so thank you for making me think again,

Adam Grant (01:01:23):

Thank you for thanking me for doing the thing that a lot of people find really annoying, which is saying, I wonder if there are times to rethink that.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:30):

Are you kidding? If you could go back and analyze everything I just said and tell me where I should actually rethink things or challenge myself, I would really appreciate that because I don't really get the opportunity, but

Adam Grant (01:01:42):

I don't know. Right? That's the whole

Noor Tagouri (01:01:44):

Point. But you put back, you poke, you poke, you poke. Okay, so intuition.

Adam Grant (01:01:47):

Yeah.

Noor Tagouri (01:01:48):

First you were talking about the environment. And I will say that I don't think I've ever used intuition in an environment sense unless it's not even, unless it's because I'm thinking about experiences of sexual violence that I've gone through. And I didn't really have that intuition that also may have, and I didn't have that intuition, but that also may have been part of why I didn't even realize what it was until a lot later. And maybe intuition comes from having some type of knowledge and then your subconscious being able to do those patterns.

Adam Grant (01:02:30):

No, I think that captures it really well. And I think the Gary Klein, there's a whole debate between Gary Klein who is showing all these benefits of intuition for decision-making. And then Danny Kahneman who won about Nobel Prize in part for showing the unreliability of intuition, and they were arguing for years and then finally said, let's design some experiments together to reconcile our views. And they basically aligned on this idea that intuition is reliable and stable environments, but not in dynamic or unpredictable environments. And I think what's interesting about your observations about intuition is it sounds like you've learned a series of intuitions about people.

Noor Tagouri (01:03:06):

That was what I was confident in until you said that thing about the bias. I wonder if, and this isn't just me trying to si myself and just be really cool, but I'm hyper, hyper hypersensitive to the concept of bias. And that's because I went into journalism. I've been in journalism for over 10 years. I studied journalism, but I was always taught, I was taught objectivity and bias in a way that never felt right to me. So me having to be objective in my storytelling and pitching a story to my news director who is a white man who doesn't know or have my experience, and I say, this is a really important story to tell. And he says, I just don't really understand it. I don't get the relevancy, blah, blah, blah. That is his own bias. And I think that so many of us, and this is kind of the reckoning that's happening in storytelling and media, we've internalized what it means to be objective.

(01:04:05):

We've been shamed, fired, punished for inserting feelings or perspective on the stories and the coverage around our own communities. But how has the misrepresentation, for instance, of Muslim people pre and post nine 11 been considered objective? And Christian Amanpour says, never draw a false moral equivalence. And even then you're still talking about morality and what people think is moral is different. But I think when there's a clear oppressor and an oppressed, then the situation should be just as clear when the story is being told. So I've always asked myself before I go into a story, how is the way I cover this going to impact the people or the communities that we're talking about? Because I've known that the misrepresentation of Muslims has led to deaths in our community to people that I actually know. And I'm really hyper aware of making sure that when I'm engaging with another person, that I am seeing them for them and what they say, how they treat whatever it is right now, I have really, really wild intuition about this person, this random person who technically could really help me in my career, but has said things that feel familiar, that make me uncomfortable, that I know that this just isn't, like the cons outweigh the benefits.

(01:05:35):

And I know that I get a very physical specific feeling when that happens. And you're right, I only really have intuition about my experiences with people directly in front of me, and I am comfortable with that.

Adam Grant (01:05:49):

It almost sounds like a repeat of your speaking engagement story. The window dressing is very attractive, but you're like, I might not like what's inside so much.

Noor Tagouri (01:06:00):

Yeah, I'm going to think about this. If I do change my mind or experience it, I will let you know because I really never did think about the environment part of the intuition. I'll talk to my dad. My dad is a doctor and a pathologist and medical examiner, and see what he has to say about that. And also the bias part. I'm going to be more aware of that, so thank you.

Adam Grant (01:06:21):

No, I think one of the things I take away from your description of how you approach journalism is that when people are in positions of power, they need to be especially careful about what their intuitions are because those intuitions can have real impact on other people's lives. And maybe there's a concrete example of this that's far lower stakes than the prejudice and violence against Muslims, but that I think drives the point home in a very clear way, which is a few years ago, I was in the Daily Show writer's room doing an episode of my work-life podcast, and we were really interested in how they diversified the writer's room. So many late night TV shows were written by white men, and here you have this, not only Trevor Noah as the host, but you have this incredibly diverse cast of writers. And they said, well, what we did first is we followed the orchestra model of blind auditions.

(01:07:19):

We took names and faces and identities off of packets, and we just had people read the writing of the candidates who were applying, not knowing who they were. And that way we were able to strip bias out of it, but we still mostly hired white men. How in the world could that happen? What's going on here? And it turned out that the evaluators were still mostly white men in the early days. And their intuition was the material that the intuitive laugh reaction that they had was activated by jokes that were told by fellow white men. And all of a sudden they realized, oh, well, our intuitions are leading us even when we don't know that this is a white man's joke to favor the jokes written by white men. So we need to diversify our evaluators, not just blind the packets that are submitted. And then once they brought in managers who are not all white men to read the packets, all of a sudden, lo and behold, people found in stories that were submitted by black women and Asian men, and the list goes on and on, and then you start to get a much more diverse pool.

(01:08:23):

And I think one of the things I learned from that example was that sometimes, sometimes it's helpful to surround yourself with people who have different intuitions because they force you to question yours and they test your intuition. And sometimes you'll follow it, and sometimes you'll choose to rethink it. And that's one of the things that I enjoy most about the work that I do, is I get to meet a lot of really interesting people who have intuitions that are different from mine, and then they react to my work and they're like, wait a minute. That does not sit right with me. I'm like, maybe I should rethink what my intuition was.

Noor Tagouri (01:09:00):

How do you notice red flags in that situation? Because I guess I have a really, really, really diverse friend group. But at the end of the day, we all have similar values, ways of thought, ways of we feel the same way, and naturally people aren't gravitating towards spending time with people who don't really align that way. So how do you maintain, especially with friendship, how do you maintain that?

Adam Grant (01:09:25):

I don't know. I'll tell you what I did after I finished writing. Think again. As you know, I wrote about the value of having not only a support network, but a challenge network, a group of thoughtful critics who point out your blind spots and tell you what you should rethink. And I went to a bunch of my most thoughtful critics. They were generally people who were highly disagreeable givers who enjoyed conflict, but were doing it to help who dished out tough love. And I said, Hey, you may not know this, but I consider you a founding member of my challenge network. Then I had to explain what in the world a challenge network was. And I said, look, I've not always taken your criticism well, sometimes I've gotten defensive, other times I've just been on a path and it seemed like a distraction, so I dismissed it. But I've always valued the way that you push me to think differently and question my assumptions, and I know I need that. So if you ever hesitate to give me feedback because you're afraid you're going to hurt our relationship or you're going to hurt me, don't, the only way you can hurt me is by not telling me the truth. And I have gotten much better feedback since I had those conversations. And I think, how's your ego? I mean, my ego is I think intact.

(01:10:40):

I think actually in the long run, I think it's made me stronger because everybody has those moments where they wonder, are people just telling me what I want to hear totally. And are there people out there who said nice things to my face? And then maybe were much more critical behind my back. And I think the more that you validate your challenge network, the more that you really are serious about opening that door to hearing criticism, the less of those insecurities you have. And so I think it's actually kind of stabilizing.

Noor Tagouri (01:11:16):

Hi, I hope you're enjoying the storytelling session. I just wanted to share something with you. If you're looking for a good deeded opportunity these days, my family has been working to alleviate local homelessness for over 10 years. We have a foundation called I See You, and we make care packages for people experiencing homelessness. We make family food bags with food staples and give out grocery gift cards to families in need and more. Everything is done by donation and 100% of the money goes towards community members in need. If you'd like to donate, you can through Venmo at iy Foundation or PayPal to contact@isyfoundation.org. If you or someone you know is in need in the dc, Maryland, and Virginia area and could use our help, please DMM on Instagram Issy Foundation or shoot us an email. Now, back to our story, not so rapid, rapid fire questions. First one, what's your favorite time of the day to write

Adam Grant (01:12:25):

Morning?

Noor Tagouri (01:12:26):

How early?

Adam Grant (01:12:28):

As soon as our kids leave for school.

Noor Tagouri (01:12:30):

Ah, great. Favorite setting to write in

Adam Grant (01:12:34):

My home office.

Noor Tagouri (01:12:36):

What's so special about your home office?

Adam Grant (01:12:39):

Nothing other than whenever I sit down in my chair, I write. So it's a natural, it's like putting on your pajamas and then knowing, oh, I should brush my teeth. Sitting down in my desk is the same way.

Noor Tagouri (01:12:50):

So the practice, the ritual of sitting down. Exactly. What do you do when you are in a creative rutt?

Adam Grant (01:12:58):

I usually call somebody who is extremely curious and tell them what I'm stuck on, and then they ask me a bunch of questions and they either give me a great idea or they help me discover something that I was processing but hadn't figured out how to articulate yet.

Noor Tagouri (01:13:15):

That's so great. Your go-to vacation.

Adam Grant (01:13:20):

I don't have a go-to vacation. I really, in a

Noor Tagouri (01:13:22):

Dream life, if you had an unlimited time, go-to vacation.

Adam Grant (01:13:26):

You know what? I really love skiing with our kids.

Noor Tagouri (01:13:29):

Where do you go skiing?

Adam Grant (01:13:31):

We've gone to a few different places. The Poconos are not far from here, so our default is just to get in the car and drive there. And I didn't learn to ski until I was in my late twenties,

Noor Tagouri (01:13:42):

And I haven't learned to ski yet. I'm so excited to,

Adam Grant (01:13:45):

Oh, it's time. It's time. It was so much fun to learn as an adult and then say, okay, I'm going to teach our kids to do this, or at least they'll learn and then we'll ski together. It's become a great shared activity.

Noor Tagouri (01:13:58):

That's amazing. That's also where my parents went for their honeymoon.

Adam Grant (01:14:02):

Good

Noor Tagouri (01:14:02):

Choice. Yes. What music do you listen to for joy?

Adam Grant (01:14:08):

I'm pretty bad at listening to music. Sometimes I go months without listening to it and I don't even notice.

Noor Tagouri (01:14:14):

What about podcasts?

Adam Grant (01:14:16):

Oh, I mean, podcasts are easy. My favorites include Invisibilia, revisionist history, where should we begin? And everything happens, and there are a whole bunch of others that I listen to as well. No stupid questions. What else am I forgetting? Oh, there's a much longer list, but I'll pause there.

Noor Tagouri (01:14:37):

There's a really cool one called Work Life. I think you might like it.

Adam Grant (01:14:42):

I've heard it a few times. I enjoy making it.

Noor Tagouri (01:14:46):

The book that changed the way you think about something during Quarantine,

Adam Grant (01:14:52):

High Conflict by Amanda Ripley is a great read on how to have better arguments

Noor Tagouri (01:14:59):

And your favorite person to learn from

Adam Grant (01:15:04):

The new author I haven't discovered yet.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:08):

And finally

Adam Grant (01:15:08):

There's nothing, nothing that makes my day more from a learning perspective than reading a book by someone I've never heard of and saying, wow, I want to read everything this person has ever thought.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:18):

Who's the last person that you read that you felt that way about? Do you know?

Adam Grant (01:15:23):

Probably Kate Murphy who wrote, You're Not Listening.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:29):

I heard That was amazing. That's actually on my list of books to read. Finally, what do you know for sure

Adam Grant (01:15:39):

That there aren't very many things I know for sure.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:43):

Thank you so much, Adam. How can we be of service to you these days?

Adam Grant (01:15:49):

It's kind of you to ask. I will try not to make you regret it.

Noor Tagouri (01:15:53):

Stores you want people to support?

Adam Grant (01:15:55):

I love independent bookstores. Whatever your favorite local store is, I'm a fan.

Noor Tagouri (01:16:01):

Amazing. Thank you so much, Adam. And if you ever need a curious person to hear and ask you questions, I'm pretty good at that. That's kind of what I do for a living.

Adam Grant (01:16:10):

It shows this was an utter delight. Thank you for having me.

Noor Tagouri (01:16:16):

I hope you enjoyed this storytelling session for more Adam Grant. You can follow him on Twitter at Adam M. Grant or Instagram at Adam Grant, or listen to his podcast Work Life on the TED Channel. Please, please subscribe to podcast nor rate and review. It is a great way to support and give me feedback. If you'd like to watch the video version of this podcast, it is up on YouTube or Facebook, both slash Noor and to you, our listener, I want to thank you for your listen and support. I'd love to stay connected. Here are some ways I'm telling stories these days. You can text me if you are in the US or Canada. Yes, it is me not a bot. I also text you intentional daily questions of the day. My number is 3 0 1 2 4 6 8 8 9. You can follow us on social, on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and YouTube at Noor and on Instagram at AYS. My Twitter, snapchat and Clubhouse is N Tagouri. This podcast is produced by the at your service team, Adam and I. It is produced and edited by Molly McKeen, and the amazing music is composed by Portugal, the Man. See you next week.